Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If anyone should be bailing out the automakers, it should be the big oil companies.

    They are not now with oil under $40 per barrel. There will probably be some oil companies showing a loss. Even when Exxon had their biggest year it was not even close to the profit made by Microsoft. It was about equal to Coca Cola. The auto makers were making lots of money during the dot.com bubble selling big SUVs. They did not save for a rainy day. I say let them fold up and go elsewhere. We do not NEED the Big 3. If GM and Chrysler fold Ford will have a good shot at becoming profitable. Not room for all those auto makers.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yet you rarely read much about him.

    Ballmer? He's famous for throwing chairs, among other things. Gates didn't discover the need for lobbying Congress until the anti-trust mess started bubbling, and Microsoft quickly made up for lost time on those efforts. But we digress....

    Out on the line, "Thousands out of work and plants with no signs of life. It's what Lansing can expect at its two GM plants for the next month.

    "It's discouraging. It's almost despairing," said UAW local 602 president Brian Fredline.

    He says this latest round of layoffs could be the worst yet. With no jobs bank to fall back on, employees may struggle to stay on their feet.

    "There is not a jobs bank to go to anymore. That was one of the fundamentally proactive things the UAW did to remove our safety net."

    Rough Month Ahead For GM Employees (WILX)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    "There is not a jobs bank to go to anymore. That was one of the fundamentally proactive things the UAW did to remove our safety net."

    Boo hoo, now they're responsible for their own safety net, just like us ordinary mortals. They should have tossed it away themselves: PR-wise it's too much like a "golden parachute" to go over well.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Boo hoo, now they're responsible for their own safety net,

    That is for sure. Welcome to reality. We have given money to half dozen members of our Church until their Unemployment kicked in. It is going to be rough. And those that did not stick their head in the sand over the last several years will do fine. Those in the UAW that lived paycheck to paycheck are just plain stupid. I can understand someone with a low paying job living like that. Not a fat cat UAW member making $100k per year.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    What about this part of the article.....instead of 95% of their pay they will only get 70% while laid off......

    But it's not all bad news. Those employees will each receive about 360 bucks a week in unemployment from the state, in addition to sub-pay provided by GM and the UAW. Put those together and workers should get about 70% of their take home pay.

    Not too bad for sitting at home. I lost my jobs 3X in 5 years during poor economies when the companies I worked for couldn't make a go of it......I didn't get a bailout. The companies I worked for were incompetent and deserved to close down - a bailout wouldn't have helped them.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • harddrivetharddrivet Member Posts: 90
    At the taxpayers expense???

    Why does Bush deserve this?? He is already a wealthy man. Why does any politician deserve money from tax payers after they serve???

    I mean yes many CEO's in Detroit and in other industries are making more money than they are worth and it is driving America into the ground. But what about the Golden Parachutes? What about pensions? What about the fact that most of the US polticians are millionares and put their money in foreign banks so that they can evade paying taxes????
  • SSIEMSSSIEMS Member Posts: 10
    Why does Bill Clinton?
    why does George Bush sr?
    Why does Jimmy Carter?
    Why does Al gore?
    Why do any of them?

    Because we set on our as# and let them!
    Because were lazy and just complain and don't do any thing about it.
    Thats why!
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    Why does Bush deserve this?? He is already a wealthy man. Why does any politician deserve money from tax payers after they serve???

    Because they write the rules.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?

    (I guess it won't be long till the Bushes are back at the ranch, but we've digressed enough eh?).
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,806
    If there was no B3, who would build the presidential limo? :P
    there was more than enough controversy over the presidential helicopter for me.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    If there was no B3, who would build the presidential limo?

    Why couldn't a stretched, armored Segway be built? :D
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Presidents have been known to fall off them. :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think Chrysler is building the current one If memory serves me. Sorry Barry they shut down the plant before we got the doors for it. The company building the doors went bankrupt and closed their shop. We did get a little space heater that plugs into the cigarette lighter to keep your feet warm. Bundle Up and enjoy the ride.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    If Chrysler is building it, THAT'S scary...means they're not using the Town Car platform (which is based on the Ford Police Interceptor, which comes with Kevlar door inserts, heh).

    I wonder how and why they got that contract? And will it show up since Chrysler is shut down right now? :shades:

    Shoulda got a stretched Hummer maybe, hah...
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Because they write the rules.

    Amen.............and, as others have so ably pointed out; we sit back and let them !

    Same sort of scams here in the U.K. If a Member of Parliament, (M.P.), gets voted out we give him full salary for the next three years to tide him over the period of getting a new job. These folks normally have a couple of Directorships under their belts as well as being full-time, (ha ha), M.P.'s. So, you lose your job 'cos you're incompetent and we pay you full salary for 3 years to make life a bit easier ? Not means tested etc. You didn't do the job "full time" because you were holding down some Directorships, that paid handsomely and you probably claimed secretarial etc allowances when your wife/kids "worked" for you. :mad:

    I sure wish I had worked for me, the taxpayer. Politicians generally become politicians for two reasons : power and to make a difference. In all too many cases that difference is primarily to their own finances. Same the world over, incl the old Communist Russia and China. :sick:

    No no no, have to stop before the Rant Monster comes to visit. "Thank you nurse, a cup of cocoa would be nice and, perhaps, a chocolate biscuit ?" :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That article I read must have been reporter speculation. The latest I find, is the new Presidential vehicle will be a new Cadillac model stretch limo, that looks like a DTS and based on a truck chassis. So GM won the bid.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    hey, maybe it'll be a 2-mode hybrid then! :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A 2-mode hybrid? That'd be a stretch. :)

    Obama to ride in style in GM limo (Detroit News)

    image
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    That thing is just plain hideous. :sick:
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    What organization does the flag on the Left front represent? :confuse:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    What organization does the flag on the Left front represent?

    The T.A.R.P. G.M. Club!

    Regards,
    OW
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    In Harrisburg, the two Lincoln Mercury dealerships - one located in the far western suburbs, the other in the eastern suburbs - were closed, and merged with a Ford dealership in more central location.

    The Dodge dealer within Harrisburg closed, as did the Ford dealer. A Chevrolet dealer in the western suburbs also closed. None of those dealers were replaced, or merged with another dealer.

    The Buick dealer in Harrisburg merged with the Pontiac-GMC dealer, and now the Buick dealership building is occupied by...a Kia franchise.

    The times are a changin'...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You may have missed it but we are keeping score:

    Dude, where did all the dealerships go??

    Good question about the flag. The US flag is flying from the senior position (right) so that's right. Ordinarily the presidential flag would wave from the junior position (left). But it's probably set up for a visiting dignitary to ride in the presidential limo with the visiting country's flag occupying the junior position.

    Or maybe it is Wagoner's personal flag? :)
  • harddrivetharddrivet Member Posts: 90
    I heard that on the news this morning.

    I have been trying to find a good link to post on it, but this is the closest I found.

    http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/transportation/toyota-decemb- er-sales---units/

    Please let me know what you think and how it compares to GM.

    Thanks to ALL.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Maybe that was the Lexus number you heard.

    "December was its own special blizzard, damping total Toyota sales some 36.7 percent, including a 41.8-percent plunge for Lexus and a 39.7 drop for Toyota SUVs."

    2008 U.S. Auto Sales Are Worst Since 1992 (AutoObserver)

    image
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    Obama to ride in style in GM limo

    I heard President was going to try a KIA limo ;)

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Do you have the numbers for the Volkswagen group?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,806
    'Wagoner's personal flag". LOL!
    how about those white wall tires?
    i wonder what was the first presidential limo to have those?
    and check out that presidential suburban in the left side of the picture.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    VW of America -

    2007 - 427,450
    2008 - 452,330

    -5.5% year/year

    Regards,
    OW
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Just to clarify, my pic is of the existing limo - the new one is still in its camo. Pics are at the Detroit News.

    (Thanks OW).

    In other news, GM Says it May Not Need Any Additional Loans.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Yeah, sure. I heard Santa and the Easter Bunny left some cash under the tree for them. Chrysler is DEAD, get over it. We'll see what happens with GM, but I expect them to go begging again.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I got a different set of figures for VW. Looks like they did better than most.

    HERNDON, Va.— Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced December 2008 sales of 17,577 units, a 14.4 percent decrease over December 2007. Full year sales of 223,128 total units for 2008, was a decrease of 3.2 percent verse 2007 sales.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    VW of America -

    2007 - 427,450
    2008 - 452,330

    -5.5% year/year


    Isn't that an increase? :confuse:
    (could be world???)

    This is what I just found;HERNDON, Va.— Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced December 2008 sales of 17,577 units, a 14.4 percent decrease over December 2007. Full year sales of 223,128 total units for 2008, was a decrease of 3.2 percent verse 2007 sales.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    They should clarify this article. it is Ron Gettlefinger that says GM may not need another loan. There is a "source" that is sighted that says this as well but until there is a name for this source...

    Don't know how they can even predict this. GM was losing money in 2007 when their sales were 20+% higher. With sales in the tank and even making cuts, I don't see how they can stop the bleeding when their products are not moving off the dealer's lots without massive incentives.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Cannot be a world figure. VW is # 4 world wide. They may include Porsche Audi in that figure for NA.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    VW does have a cloned Chrysler minivan and a new jetta sportwagon along with the new jetta tdi in 2008 vs 2007 that might account for the increase. Doubt they're selling many of those vans though.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Crossed the years. My bad.

    Volkswagen of America Inc.

    12/07 32,697 12/08 39,864 -18.0% from Dec. 2007

    2007 427,450 2008 452,330 -5.5% from 2007

    Market Share 12/08 3.6% 12/07 2.9%

    YTD 2008 3.2% YTD 2007 2.8%

    WSJ

    Regards,
    OW
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    Considering the economic environment... that's pretty good.

    :)
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Shouldn't the consumer, after decades of over-consumption, be allowed to digest the over-indebtedness and save, rather than be encouraged to take risk?
    Shouldn't companies, no matter what state they reside in from a political point of view, if run poorly, be allowed to fail or forced to restructure? Should taxpayer money be used to make up for the mishaps at financial institutions or should we allow them to wallow in their own mistakes? Shouldn't free markets be free?
    When did Socialism make its way to our shores?
    How do we choose who is bailed out and who loses?
    Shouldn't we place blame on the politicians, bureaucrats and other "decision makers" and put skilled people in place that know how to run the businesses?
    Shouldn't investors, led blindly down the primrose path of "buy and hold, diversify and don't open your brokerage statement except once every 10 years" be allowed to follow the Prudent Man Rule?
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    A friend was telling me`about his first new and only new car he ever bought. A 1976 Chev Nova. He had numerous problems but the last big one was he had a trunkful of water every time it rained. He complained to his salesman, and the salesman put his arm around him and said, "Jimmy, Jimmy Jimmy, so what's the big problem, if you think about it, how often does it rain." Ever since then he has never bought a new car again, only used ones where he says, "I only pay 10 cents on the dollar for them".

    Moral: Another potential customer lost forever!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    You wouldn't actually buy our crappy cars any more - so now we have found another way of getting your money.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    ROTFLMAO!!!!

    Regards,
    OW :D
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    I fail to see how one idiot salesman and one ignorant customer have anything to do with the D3 hurting. There are plenty of salesman and customers like that on Toyota and Honda lots.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    I fail to see how one idiot salesman and one ignorant customer have anything to do with the D3 hurting.

    The thing is for a long time there only were the D3 and most of us bought cars that were fine. But many people got burned somewhere along the line...and basically these people were ignored, because the D3 were doing fine and if a customer had a complaint nothing was done for them. Many of those cars weren't of the highest quality either, GM even admits this. So, when the new guys from Toyota and Honda come along and build very solid reliable cars people were quick to change their buying habits. The one idiot salesperson isn't going to hurt the D3, but the cumulative affect of people getting burned is going to make them look elsewhere, if someone has a better product.
    I had many GM cars that I loved, but my Corsica fell apart after 60,000 miles, so why would I go back. My father had Fords and then bought an Oldsmobile Omega which he thought was unsafe to drive. He bought Camrys after that. I think the D3 has a problem in that the baby boomers want either reliabe and practical cars like Toyotas or enthusiasts cars like Lexus or BMW. Young people want to be cool and they like Toyotas and Hondas.

    I don't think there are any salespeople like that these days.....they wouldn't last. But there were salespeople like that in the 60s, 70s and 80s and it gave people a bad experience.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You mean it's not cool to drive a Buick?? Who'd a thought??

    It's the financial managers at the dealers who have taken the place of the idiot salesman...that's at ALL dealers including the imports. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    You mean it's not cool to drive a Buick?? Who'd a thought??

    It's very cool to drive a Buick.....in China.

    For some unknown reason they love Buicks and Cadillacs there. I sometimes think GM wants to get out of the car business in North America.....if they only sold cars overseas they would actually be very profitable.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Take a look at the 2010 Buick LaCrosse. I think it looks as cool as the imports in its class, despite the uncool image of the Buick brand.

    The challenge for Detroit now, in terms of image, is that perception lags reality. For many years, from the 1920s through about the early 1970s, many of Detroit's offerings were the coolest. The Chevrolet Malibu and Corvette, Cadillac CTS, 2010 Ford Fusion, the initial success of the RWD Chrysler 300, and the Detroit 3 pickups demonstrate that the domestic car makers can be viable.

    Does the new Acura TL look cool? We have a TL in our family. It's been excellent, but we don't think the '09 looks cool. We probably wouldn't consider one. I cite this to make the point that perceptions can change, and that it's possible for Detroit to come back.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Agreed. The 2004 - 2008 Acura is the best TL, IMHO. The new one is downright offensive to look at.

    The 2010 LaCrosse is a huge departur from Buicks of the recent past. The interior is even farther from where Buick was and the badge looks out of place.

    image

    As you cited, perceptions can change. Ironically, the brink of oblivion might be the trick needed!

    Regards,
    OW
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    Take a look at the 2010 Buick LaCrosse. I think it looks as cool as the imports in its class, despite the uncool image of the Buick brand.

    I agree 100% with your comments about the look of the new Buicks. Great improvement and the interior circlew got does look good. Would anyone younger than 50 buy one...I think it's too late personally.

    Does the new Acura TL look cool? We have a TL in our family. It's been excellent, but we don't think the '09 looks cool.

    My friend has an 07 or 08 Acura and I think it is one of the nicest designs around. We both think the 09 is ugly......they've tried to jazz it up with all that bulk and bubbly edges. They ruined it for me. Same as the Camry for me. Trying to be edgy. I think if they have to make it so radically new age they should keep a Classic model for the purists. :(

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    I for one, still feel strongly It'll be a cold day in hell before I buy another GM or Chrysler product, if only because they took my tax money!

    Ford is the least dispicable to me out of the Big 3.

    I'm very happy and nearing 50K miles on my Audi with no substantial problems to date. Honestly, the A3 has been so reliable and dependable, that Audi has made not only the Big 3 look pathetic, but has made Honda's made in Ohio look like they need an uptick in quality.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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