Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?

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Comments

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It's ALWAYS time for a Buick!

    I was only 16 when I bought my first Buick! We currently have two Buicks in our household and I'm only 43 and she's 42.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Lemko you are at the leading edge of the aging process :shades:

    A Buick beats the heck out of the contortions required to get into a Corolla or Civic. Or worse yet a Fit or Yaris. You went for the comfort while still in High School. A trend setter no doubt.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Hey, first car was a '75 Buick Regal when I received my license in '87. I haven't owned a Buick since. I'll say the 2010 Lacrosse looks very nice, somewhat reminds of a Lexus or Acura. Guess that will turn off Lemko.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    I was only 16 when I bought my first Buick! We currently have two Buicks in our household and I'm only 43 and she's 42.

    I don't know how you did that, don't you have to show proof of age that you're a senior citizen before they let you buy a Buick?

    All joking aside, Buick is a big seller in China so GM isn't planning to dump Buick. This market could be 10X the U.S. market in 10 years from now.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Several years ago, I tried to get my mom (then in her 70's) to buy a Buick. It made perfect sense I thought. Good cars, and a good long-time small-town Buick dealer less than 10 miles from her home.

    She absolutely refused. Buick meant old to her, and -even in her 70's- she wasn't THAT old. So, despite my recommendation, she went out by herself and bought ....
    wait for it..... A Toyota Avalon; the Japanese Buick.

    I was very surprised about how strong her feelings were that Buicks were for old people and that she wasn't going to ever be that old.... It didn't matter how good the cars were.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I rented an '06 Buick LaCrosse from a Green Bay car dealer last year on a trip - first one I had spent any time in for years. It had a bit of pull to the right but otherwise was a nice ride and got good mpg too.

    I was 55 on that trip.

    I fit in a Fit pretty good too though.

    In topical news, but perhaps a rehash, Auto Suppliers Chase Their Own Bailout (Washington Independent).

    Concerning emissions, "GM, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC are walking an extremely thin tightrope, however, in regard to their latitude to take odds with Obama or Congress. GM and Chrysler already have accepted billions of dollars in federal loans and are seeking more. And in grilling automakers about their current weakened financial positions, many lawmakers made direct links to the automakers' purported foot-dragging on introducing and promoting fuel-efficiency technology and more environmentally responsible vehicle choices."

    GM Looks to 'Policy Discussion' on States' Emissions Maneuvering (AutoObserver)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    That's funny...the Avalon (and Lexus ES) are kind of dream cars for my mother who thinks a Lucerne is too stodgy for her. She's old fashioned about buying a car and always pays cash - so she'd never buy something as expensive as those two, but she'd like to have one. Her fantasy car is a 57 T-Bird, an old Jag Mk 2 or a MB CLK convertible...so maybe she's not too much of a geezer yet.

    Her bland Taurus is getting up there in age now, and I suspect it will be replaced with a Ford Fusion.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    Her fantasy car is a 57 T-Bird, an old Jag Mk 2 or a MB CLK convertible...

    She's got good taste!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...I suspect it will be replaced with a Ford Fusion."

    The 2010 Fusion is appealing, in my opinion.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,494
    She seems to like the current ones OK too...she sees the screamer ads for cheapo models, and that catches her eye. I've told her the new one will be better and probably no more expensive. Of course, I would tell her to wait a year and get a used one with <10K miles for a steep discount.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    > the 2010 lacrosse looks pretty sweet and a great car from Buick could certainly change my views towards the brand.

    The Enclave is anything but a car for the nearly dead. They are great.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    The Enclave is anything but a car for the nearly dead. They are great.

    I know the reviews are good, and people seem to like them for some unknown reason, but I parked next to one and it just looked like a big honkin piece of metal...with that Buick grill that reminds me of a dead carp.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The Enclave is anything but a car for the nearly dead. They are great.

    Last I checked the Enclave is not a car.... But yes, it's a nice vehicle.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    One Edmunds customer review of Buick Enclave...titled Buick Shmuik;
    2008 Buick Enclave CXL 4dr SUV AWD (3.6L 6cyl 6A)

    Review

    After first month of owning this Enclave has been nothing but trouble. Since June 08 we have had two transmission software updates (tranny shifting still terrible. Acts as though it doesn't know what gear it's suppose to be in). Rear liftgate opens by itself (when car off luckily). With automatic operation turned off we still hear the lift motor engage. Heat controls stopped working twice. At times when driving all gauges read as though the car is turned off. With cruise control set at 75 MPH for nearly two hours the best MPG I get is 17. In city getting 13 MPG is a good day. Dealer is trying their best but I don't hold out for much improvement.

    Favorite Features

    Interior / exterior design

    Suggested Improvements

    How long has GM been making transmissions? Based on this car one would think this is their first attempt.

    Some positive reviews Enclave

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    It's their new 6 speed which has only been out a couple of years. I've read numerous complaints about it being jumpy, indecisive and sluggish which takes a re-flash or two to get right. Same thing that happened to Toyota when their first six-speed slushboxes came out. Although GM fans thought differently in that scenario because well, it's Toyota... It was their ammo to smear the brand and it's reputation. But in a GM doing the same thing? It's perfectly acceptable.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    "The scale of the slowdown confirms that "decoupling is impossible," said World Bank chief economist Justin Yifu Lin. The world economy hasn't reached the bottom yet, he warned."

    From this I don't see vehicle sales picking up anytime soon. I think forecasts are going down if anything. This just puts more support behind the fact that the auto industry is still too big, and that any loans given to it to keep it as big as now will be wasted. The D3 needs to be sized small enough to make a profit to repay the loans

    "And Takenaka warned that the "world is watching" how the United States deals with the troubled Big Three automakers, saying Washington is running the risk of inflaming worries over "protectionism." "

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Davos-speakers-say-stimulus-plans/story.as- - - px?guid=%7BB42034A2%2D51A5%2D44F3%2D891D%2D85A32E8FC976%7D
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    One only needs to watch the labor reports. When jobs become available and the UE rate turns around, auto sales will also. Not going to happen for a few more month to say the least. Below is the rate for each month since the official recession started.

    Year Month Rate (source:BLS)

    2007 12 4.9
    2008 01 4·9
    2008 02 4·8
    2008 03 5·1
    2008 04 5·0
    2008 05 5.5
    2008 06 5.6
    2008 07 5.8
    2008 08 6·2
    2008 09 6.2
    2008 10 6.6
    2008 11 6.8
    2008 12 7·2

    As we know, auto sales in terms of demand destruction match this pretty much dead on. I stick with my forecast of 9.8MM SAAR for each month until at least June.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Take a look at the 12 month stat by state changes since the start of the recession. Scary!

    States with statistically significant unemployment rate changes
    from December 2007 to December 2008, seasonally adjusted
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    | Rate |
    |-----------------------|
    State | Dec| Dec | Over-the-year
    | 2007 | 2008(p) |rate change(p)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Michigan .......................| 7.4 | 10.6 | 3.2
    Rhode Island ...................| 5.2 | 10.0 | 4.8
    South Carolina .................| 6.2 | 9.5 | 3.3
    California .....................| 5.9 | 9.3 | 3.4
    District of Columbia ...........| 5.7 | 8.8 | 3.1
    North Carolina .................| 4.7 | 8.7 | 4.0
    Oregon .........................| 5.4 | 9.0 | 3.6
    Nevada .........................| 5.2 | 9.1 | 3.9
    Indiana ........................| 4.5 | 8.2 | 3.7
    Florida ........................| 4.5 | 8.1 | 3.6
    Georgia ........................| 4.5 | 8.1 | 3.6
    Ohio ...........................| 5.8 | 7.8 | 2.0
    Mississippi ....................| 6.3 | 8.0 | 1.7
    Kentucky .......................| 5.3 | 7.8 | 2.5
    Illinois .......................| 5.3 | 7.6 | 2.3
    Tennessee ......................| 5.0 | 7.9 | 2.9
    Alaska .........................| 6.3 | 7.5 | 1.2
    Missouri .......................| 5.3 | 7.3 | 2.0
    Connecticut ....................| 4.8 | 7.1 | 2.3
    Maine ..........................| 4.9 | 7.0 | 2.1
    Washington .....................| 4.6 | 7.1 | 2.5
    Minnesota ......................| 4.7 | 6.9 | 2.2
    New York .......................| 4.6 | 7.0 | 2.4
    Alabama ........................| 3.7 | 6.7 | 3.0
    New Jersey .....................| 4.2 | 7.1 | 2.9
    Massachusetts ..................| 4.3 | 6.9 | 2.6
    Arizona ........................| 4.2 | 6.9 | 2.7
    Pennsylvania ...................| 4.4 | 6.7 | 2.3
    Vermont ........................| 3.9 | 6.4 | 2.5
    Colorado .......................| 4.0 | 6.1 | 2.1
    Idaho ..........................| 2.7 | 6.4 | 3.7
    Wisconsin ......................| 4.8 | 6.2 | 1.4
    Arkansas .......................| 5.5 | 6.2 | .7
    Delaware .......................| 3.5 | 6.2 | 2.7
    Maryland .......................| 3.6 | 5.8 | 2.2
    Texas ..........................| 4.2 | 6.0 | 1.8
    Louisiana ......................| 4.0 | 5.9 | 1.9
    Hawaii .........................| 3.1 | 5.5 | 2.4
    Montana ........................| 3.2 | 5.4 | 2.2
    Virginia .......................| 3.2 | 5.4 | 2.2
    Kansas .........................| 4.2 | 5.2 | 1.0
    New Mexico .....................| 3.2 | 4.9 | 1.7
    New Hampshire ..................| 3.4 | 4.6 | 1.2
    Oklahoma .......................| 4.1 | 4.9 | .8
    Iowa ...........................| 3.8 | 4.6 | .8
    Utah ...........................| 2.9 | 4.3 | 1.4
    Nebraska .......................| 2.8 | 4.0 | 1.2
    South Dakota ...................| 2.9 | 3.9 | 1.0
    North Dakota ...................| 3.2 | 3.5 | .3

    Regards,
    OW
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    .It's their new 6 speed which has only been out a couple of years
    But in a GM doing the same thing? It's perfectly acceptable.


    That's funny....when Toyota took awhile to get it right everyone was jumping around criticizing because they are expected to be perfect.

    When GM messes up it's, oh that's normal for a new transmission, it's to be expected.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    2008 12 7·2

    Unemployment rate is 7.2 and could go higher.

    Count in the greatly underemployed and the unemployment rate is double.

    Car sales won't pick up until this changes. D3 need to do an organized Chapter 11. Fewer cars, fewer UAWs, fewer dealers, the sooner the better.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Sticking with the bailout and what we think of it...

    Is it just me, or is the idea of higher mileage standards and possibly having to meet multiple state emmision regulations going to force more bailout funds?

    I can see the case being made that the costs associated with the retooling that's going to be needed are going to be overwhelming for the automakers.

    So it seems that it either will be shovel more money or let them fail and restructure that way. But the administration isn't likely to let that happen are they?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The administration is in shovel mode. C11 is not a high probability, IMHO.

    The Unemployment number are telling a story that their forecast in the loan requirements are suspect. The velocity is what caused the auto demand destruction, as you can see.

    Regards,
    OW
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    Is it the 6-speed made in collaboration with Ford by AISIN (and used by GM, FORD and Mazda), who incidentally makes transmission for Toyota ;);) What are the chances that they are the same internally???
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Nah, couldn;t be, nobody but GM gets it right.

    Even when they don't... ;)

    On a serious note, the tranny was co-developed with Ford, but I believe GM builds it themselves. They're not ones to outsource transmissions.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    I can see the case being made that the costs associated with the retooling that's going to be needed are going to be overwhelming for the automakers.

    I believe the automakers already have $25B approved last year, to meet the CAFE improvements. The new state rules are only slightly higher, so really not much of a change.

    But I really think the new CAFE or state rules are long-term issues. The issue of these bailout loans encompasses the next year at the latest and are short-term. GM and Chrysler need to worry about April, not next year or 2012, or 2015 or 2020.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    The 2010 Fusion is appealing, in my opinion.

    I was gonna say the same thing. Not bad looking at all. So was the current one when it first came out.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,690
    >Although GM fans thought differently in that scenario because well, it's Toyota... It was their ammo to smear the brand and its reputation.

    But Toyotas are perfect, aren't they? That's why their wart got note. Also they and Honda take care of every problem, which for Honda was lots of transmission replacements) without cost to owner. But somehow Toyota wasn't as user friendly on that problem which eventually became a problem with the phsycial capability of the transmission to shift gears due to design minimization of said ability.

    I notice the review said GM applied software updates, didn't it? Fixed. :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Toyota is more perfect than GM. So are a lot of other brands. Therefore, their work is not done AFAIC. Very far from it.

    Competition is great... it forces the failed to live once again!

    Regards,
    OW
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    So here we have 2 alternate plans which involve giving away tax revenue to support auto manufacturers. I guess this was discussed, because it is not as politically damaging, as just coming out and giving the auto manufacturers a check.

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/23/autos/government_car_incentives/index.htm?postve- rsion=2009012909

    If these go thru I suggest we promote that people buy vehicles only from companies that have not begged and received tax money in several ways already! :mad:
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    involve giving away tax revenue to support auto manufacturers.

    Good article. I think removing sales tax and some government taxes on new car sales could help motivate people to buy. In Canada we have two sales taxes which amount to 15%. If this was removed for 5 or 6 months it might motivate people to buy. On a $30,000 car that would be a $4500 savings. It would be more direct than tax cuts which could just end up in the bank. This could extend to all products, for example TVs etc.
    Could get people buying again and you know the money is creating sales. This along with guaranteed loans or very low interest loans to buy a car might be worth considering.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    They just don't get it. Why do they think it's hard to get credit? Perhaps not too many people have good credit?

    Second, why do they think people aren't shopping, let alone buying Cars?

    Thousands of job cuts announced earlier this week at Caterpillar Inc., Target Corp. and other companies suggest unemployment may climb further. Federal Reserve policy makers yesterday voted to keep the central bank&#146;s target interest rate at zero to 0.25 percent and noted employment is among the measures that have declined &#147;steeply.&#148;

    &#147;The job market is pretty awful,&#148; William Cheney, chief economist at John Hancock Financial Services Inc. in Boston, said in a Bloomberg Television interview. &#147;You&#146;ve got job losses feeding into sales losses.&#148;


    This doesn't mention the many companies that are reducing salaries and stopped contributing to 401K's.

    Let me know when the job losses stop and I'll tell you when people will start buying cars again.

    Regards,
    OW
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Let me know when the job losses stop and I'll tell you when people will start buying cars again.

    The unfortunate circularity is....job losses will probably stop when people start buying cars again. :sick:
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    the bailout companies. This is the only solution we can take.

    The only way the coporate execs and Washington insider Politicians will listen to the voice of the public is if the public voices their opinion by closing their wallets. If Bailout Big 2 companies GM and Chrysler see plummeting sales from their already horrendously low numbers, then maybe they will put it together and figure out that people don't like paying with their tax dollars due to other people's idiotic car choices.

    In fact, we might need an Auto Repair Social Security fund that forces buyers of domestic product to save for the eventual and inevitable massive costs to keep the clunker running after the short warranty periods still offered by the Big 2. In this way, they will only be allowed to spend these social funds on repairing their big 3 :lemon: , and they can't use it to buy a reliable HOnda or Toyota. Sort of a forced savings and spending plan to help the big 3 mechanics and auto repair shops out there.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Maybe US brand car dealers will be nationalized. Will Obama and Congress emulate any practices of Hugo Chavez?
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    The unfortunate circularity is....job losses will probably stop when people start buying cars again.

    Yes, but the Catch-22 is people don't have the money to pay their credit cards as much as they were. It's like saying a person should do vigorous aerobic activity every week for good heart-health; but oh the person has lung cancer.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/credit/2009-01-29-consumer-credit-delinquinc- - ies_N.htm

    I look at this as the U.S. consumer has been living beyond his means for many, many years. Everyone's (individuals, companies, general economy) purported wealth was based on a system that could not last - spending more than was being made. This system was in trouble early last year, when the economic stimulus checks were sent out. What did that do - encourage more spending, delaying the crash by 6 months, and putting the feds deeper in debt.

    If I knew what the solution was, or you, we would win a Nobel prize and be famous for the next 100 years.

    We simply are not going to reverse this economic crisis by telling the average person who is up to his ears in bills, that we're going to give you $1,000 or $2,000 in some manner, and it is a good idea to go our and take a loan on a $25,000 item, that you really don't need (assuming they have a car now).

    If people are living check-to-check then it is not wise to increase your monthly bills $400, and become that much closer to going bankrupt.

    I sincerely think our society can not afford $16M new vehicles per year, or need the workers and facilities for that. Therefore loan $ to keep this amount is wasted.

    Maybe Obama and the Congress need to give the D3 contracts to convert their plants and workers to building windmill turbines and solar panels, instead of vehicles?
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    >Maybe US brand car dealers will be nationalized.

    and make Ladas?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    yeah, the appeal to buy new cars has always been clear in America. And that is not going to change, although it does have a big impact on family financials. Not like housing financials, though.

    I know it's nice to have a McMansion of your own, people, but if the income coming in is not going to make the 100 to 40% ratio, maybe that McMansion will have to wait until Shirley gets a raise there. Ya know what I mean?

    To me, a mortgage loan with an ARM agreement is like being forced to eat Big Macs and large fries, entirely, with hot fudge sundaes for dessert. For every meal, for 10 years straight. Not hungry enough for your next big Mac? Too bad. Eat up, consumer.

    Can we say over-purchasing here? Greediness, oh just...perhaps?

    The mortgage loan officers shold be forced to help pay back these peoples' defaulted loans. :(

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    gogogodzilla, you know what you want. And it probably doesn't cost an arm and a hammer, too.

    This "subprime lending crisis" apparently is showing us that the "in Texas everything is bigger and better" line of bull applies to the entire nation. Why buy a smaller house that you can actually take care of the lawn and the house's mechanicals for...when you can buy your own McMansion.

    So you can be cool...and drowning in debt...and hoping the ARM doesn't engage! Makes perfect sense. :sick:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The mortgage loan officers shold be forced to help pay back these peoples' defaulted loans.

    There are some of the sub prime mortgage brokers doing time. I know one waiting trial. He lost his home and caused two people in our church to lose theirs. It has hit every nook and cranny in America. The crazy part is many of these sub prime sales people believed their own sales pitch. The fellow we bought this house from was close to losing it. His payment was way more than he was making. He lost over $100k in one year he owned the place. And we still paid too much for it. Fortunately we love it here and it could never be built for what we paid. Just wish it was in a less screwed up state than CA.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    what would it take to fix California? Have Ahh-nold's term finish up, for one? Then what?

    Beside the heavy automotive emission rules, the place is just so overcrowded, and I don't see that changing, because of Hollywood and the Lakers, for just two reasons.

    No, can it be turned around to sanity-status in California?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Actually I believe CA had a net loss in population last year. Many people selling homes at ridiculous prices and taking the money to a healthier economy. Where ever that may be. The CA government is totally inept at running the state in a fiscally responsible manner. They are in debt up to their eyeballs and what is the thrust? CO2 emissions and badgering the auto makers. They are so far removed from reality they will most likely bankrupt the state. And CA does not have a money printing press like the Feds.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    More people left California last year than any other state but it still had a net increase in population thanks to the birth rate and immigration. (International Herald Tribune)

    In bailout related news, there's some "when pigs fly" commentary about the various auto industry statements of recent days in this AutoObserver commentary.

    Behind the Headlines: News and Maneuvers Get Weirder
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Steve, that blog entry strikes me as a bit alarmist in areas...funny, but alarmist. And also inaccurate:

    Cash is floating out of Dearborn at the rate of $2 billion a month, the car market's expected to be worse than last year, and Ford's revenue-making prospects for the year run to relaunching the Taurus, reversing a 33 percent sales plunge with a reskinned Mustang, pushing some more big Lincolns, like the Flex-based MKT, and trying to limit the amount of giveback cash that has to go with each new F-150.

    I see no mention of the upcoming 2010 Fusion, which so far is being widely praised, and will probably be a sales success.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    " a mortgage loan with an ARM agreement is like being forced to eat Big Macs and large fries, entirely, with hot fudge sundaes for dessert."

    Mmmmm, tasty!
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    to further clarify what I meant by the Big Macs...is...that too many Americans were biting off way more tasty house than they could afford. Getting too drunk on materialism, in this case overly costly housing, to be able to afford the mortgage payment when the loan adjusted and the ARM kicked in. Which added different amounts for different loan-holders. But adding even $300 a month more to a person's mortgage payment is nasty news, indeed. I think you already got that...but just checking!

    Hey, on a side note...this Big Mac ain't as tasty as it was in 1972, is it, housing consumers?

    The actual Big Mac sandwich also used to taste much better when I first started eating them in the early 70's. Only 75 cents and more beefy taste than now. And a huge part of my disappointment with these hamburgers now is the weird quinine water taste that they attach to the lettuce, pickles, onions, cheese and special sauce...on a sesame seed bun.

    There's something in there, a preservative perhaps, that makes the whole hamburger have a weird taste. And to ask them to hold the special sauce sort of defeats the whole purpose of eating a Big Mac, doesn't it, my car-nutty buddies?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I cannot remember having a Big Mac for at least 30 years. Only the French Fries on rare occasion. Though I appreciate everyone that does eat them. I had my wife buy a lot of MCD when it was $14 per share for the dividend. It is one of the few stocks that has gone up over the last year. 80% more profit in 2008 than 2007. I still don't get it. It is expensive to take kids there to eat.

    The sad part is the tax payers are having to eat at McDonald's so we can give GM billions to pay the UAW workers, so they can have filet mignon every night.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    French fries built this state.

    And talk about taxpayer subsidies and loans.

    Detroit will never catch up with the farmers.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    And a huge part of my disappointment with these hamburgers now is the weird quinine water taste that they attach to the lettuce, pickles, onions, cheese and special sauce...on a sesame seed bun.

    Try Burger King's Double Beef Whopper, Bryan. That's my preferred poison when I'm afraid that I might live too long.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    Burger King also makes the Steakhouse burger, in regular, medium or large sizes. The regular one is about enough to feed two hungry middle linebackers!

    Then you add the obligatory french fries and you're eating for at least two and a half large people. If someone ate that burger three times a week for a year I think they would weigh about a hundred pounds more than at the start. Eeek!

    gagrice...they're scared, though, now, these UAW workers. I read an article tonight on msn about three generations of UAW Detroit workers. They are now thinking that Junior may very well be the last UAW worker in their family, and, they're not sure he's gonna make it through these layoffs, either.

    Too bad his elders sold him out by striking GM when they were not making a profit. Now that's smart cookin' with Crisco there, huh? :shades:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • sandman235sandman235 Member Posts: 7
    I must respectfully disagree, the solution is not another big government program, heck, social security is one of the main reasons this economy is in trouble. We would be better off if the government does nothing and if president Obama does really suceed in socializing our medical system, we may never recover. Reduced government spending, lower taxes, and the free market are the answer.
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