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But this tangential discussion is about the Camry and Corolla and the lack of understanding about 'WHY' these two vehicles succeed so well when the enthusiasts often give them mediocre for styling.
1 Euro = 1.3157 U.S. dollars
Toyota minus -1.7 US B link title
And look at the numbers. Even with Matrix and Corrolla numbers lumped together they still did not equal the Honda Civic.
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/03/best-car-sales-forbeslife-cx_jm_1203cars_slide_- 8.html?thisSpeed=15000
Toyota is a great car and the Camry still has a great name attached helping it boosts its numbers. It is just not the end all that it used to be. A smart shopper might choose an Altima or Accord instead.
And if sales numbers are they say all, why isn't the Tundra in the top ten?
Sales and reviews combined show the quality and value of the car. If it was only sales then the GMT-900 (Silverado/Sienna) would be the greatest automobile of all time.
Speaking of, Chrysler is cooked.
http://www.freep.com/article/20090411/BUSINESS01/904110377/1002/BUSINESS/Chrysle- r+debt+plan+still+vague
Vehicle making is only a business. In that regard the only criteria is how the public assesses a product. If the public buys more of one product over another then they view it as the best. That's all that can be said.
Now..
are these two the best looking? That's subjective.
are these the two best handling vehicles? No
do these have the best interiors? Probably not, but that's subjective too.
are these two at the top of the class in durability? Absolutely
are these two affordable and fuel efficient? Absolutely
are these two among the lowest in maintenance costs? Absolutely
are these two proven? Absolutely
You can see where this isgoing. There's a lot more to success than styling and handling.
What you are misunderstanding as I noted previously is the 'WHY' for the success of the Camry and the Corolla. Why? Because Toyota has understood that there is a huge segment of buyers for whom all the features that you feel are important are far far down the list for buying a vehicle for most of the population. This segment is huge. It far huger than the enthusiast segment that wants superior everything in a vehicle. That segment is tiny and frankly unprofitable.
Toyota and Honda have attacked the huge middle section of the buying population where all that is wanted is dependable, reliable transportation that is reasonably priced, fuel efficient and holds value; 4 doors, 4 wheels and low cost to own. The rest is fluff.
The detroiters can't understand this at all. It's one of the key reasons for their failings over the last 15-20 yrs. They always complain about the US buyers only wanting 'appliances'. The buyers are never wrong, they have the money. If they want appliances then that's what the companies have to build and sell. That's why it's a business and not a beauty pagaent.
I can under a Toyota salesman will defend and sell the product, but this discussion is about the US autos; instead I see that now, rather than the wonderful quality of a competitor vehicle as in the past, now the criterion of merit is how many they sold. Lots of shares of Enron were sold. Lots of Ford Pintos were sold. Lots of Civics are sold. Lots of Cavaliers are sold.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
How about Canada's apparent intention to give money to US based companies? What's the deal with that? Or the German government bailing out Opel (although that looks to be off the table)?
Maybe the feds should shunt some money to Toyota to keep the Freemont CA plant going?
LOL, I didn't realize that the other manufacturers quit making trucks that way. My '85 Silverado has 8 big bolts holding the bed in place, and it hasn't come loose...yet!
All your comments on the Camry and Corolla still miss the 'Why'. What you are misunderstanding is that all of these comparo's are beauty pagaents. Nothing more. The only metric that counts is how many are sold and how much profit is made from them.
Neither the Camry nor the Corolla really does anything for me...although I have to admit the latest Corolla is a handsome little car IMO. They don't excite me, but they don't turn me off, either. They seem like decent cars though, and I can see why they sell well.
One of my cow-irkers bought a 2008 Camry last year. It's been holding up very well. I didn't know the CE model could be had with a heavy-duty suspension! :P
Assembly done by foreigners who get no pension
pay scale very different
So future GM workers make less, sell their houses and downsize, pull their kids out of private schools. Their kids get financial aid to go to college, they pay less taxes, they support far fewer merchants. They pay less taxes in their downsized home and their schools get less revenue.
The continual drum beat from Detroit is don't get rid of the blue collar workers!!
That's wrong.
Perpetuating an inefficient method of assembly puts this nation at a competitive disadvantage to the better educated nations of the world which will use more efficient means of assembly. We might as well be assembling vehicles with wooden mallets and rivets. It can't continue.
There will be pain but for the good of the country we need to bring D3 assembly costs lower and lower and lower faster than any other of the competing countries. Subsidizing inefficient 'labor tools' by paying them high wages for menial and tedious tasks that should be done by robots keeps us firmly rooted in the mid 20th Century.
That's a sure means to lose everything. The proof is right in front of our eyes. The D3 are evacuating the US to avoid the UAW while the transplants are increasing the size of their presence to fill the void - without the UAW. Unfortunately for the blue collar UAW workers the writing is on the wall. 'You will be the last group of breathing 'worker tools' used. You need to become more highly educated and rise above the assembly floor if you want to remain in the auto industry.'
And look at the numbers. Even with Matrix and Corrolla numbers lumped together they still did not equal the Honda Civic.
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/03/best-car-sales-forbeslife-cx_jm_1203cars_slide_- - - - 8.html?thisSpeed=15000
Toyota is a great car and the Camry still has a great name attached helping it boosts its numbers. It is just not the end all that it used to be. A smart shopper might choose an Altima or Accord instead.
And if sales numbers are they say all, why isn't the Tundra in the top ten?
Sales and reviews combined show the quality and value of the car. If it was only sales then the GMT-900 (Silverado/Sienna) would be the greatest automobile of all time."...
Sans the Tundra, I shop closer to your presented (above) outline . Indeed over a Toyota's Corolla/Accord/Prius it was Civic/Jetta TDI/Jetta TDI.
Since we are talking American cars, GM's Buick probably ranks right up there AND has for at least a decade that I am personally familar. It has truly been a sleeper all this time.. But the caveat probably says it all: IF I HAD to GET an AMERICAN CAR.
This is one of the GREATEST rip offs, both monetary and to FREEDOM; in that it forces folks to pony up REAL monies for cars they didn't buy! For those that for one reason or another BOUGHT American cars, the real cost is easily 2x's. The clueless and hapless and just plain incompetent auto oem's and the logistic systems are being liberally reward for being all of the above and more.
You logic also doesn't make sense. If sales was the only figure than the GM GMT-900's would be the best automobile ever made. :confuse:
Also if Toyota is doing so great and such an amazing company, why are they scrambling to strengthen their management.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=145849
Also if anyone is thinking about buying a Corolla, watch this first, you might change your mind.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/dc/Search?ss=Video&q=toyota+corolla#
"By midday the corolla was falling behind...not one of our participant picked the Toyota Corolla first"
Thanks for a very interesting video link. I perused all of them. The final one, the comparison test, was well done. They did fail in one important aspect: information about the "selected" test drivers. We should have been told where they were from and where they typically drove their cars, what cars they currently own, and what cars they owned previously.
>Where did you make up these figures?
Hmmmmm.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So for a gross example, the Mazda 3. I think it would be fair to say it beats the Corolla in almost EVERY measure !!! Yet it does not deliver matching sales numbers.
More of apples/oranges example, primarily because Mazda as a company is so much smaller than Toyota and has comparatively less manufacturing capability: they can't make as many Mazda3s as Toyota can Corollas. However, for quite a while, Mazda was selling every last Mazda3 they made, and for a while couldn't make enough to meet demand. That's the best place for a car company to be, especially if they're making a profit on each car sold: no inventory overhead, and low supply/high demand drives the prices up a bit higher.
This is in contrast to certain larger manufacturers, some of whom reside in Detroit (*cough* GM *cough* Chrysler *cough*) who build a ton, let them sit on parking lots, and then have to take a $2000 hit per vehicle just to get rid of them because it costs too much to store them.
Regards,
OW
Now if Canadian tax payer want to foot the bill, they are more than welcome too.
That being said, I don't think the Canadian Prime Minister will be around much longer if he commits to keeping Chrysler afloat.
The total of benefits and pay for the average US worker for GM should be a lot closer to Toyota. If that means changing pension to 401k and reducing health benefits so be it.
And it might not even be the majority of the UAW that is opposed to change. Most likely it is the old guys with the ridiculous pay and benefits that just to want to flex. :sick:
Also, all of us guy car drivers need to remember that females make up around 40% of car sales.
The Civic coupe. Should that too be excepted?
The Mazda3 hatch. Should that too be excepted?
Stop splitting hairs.
For the last 5 yrs the Corolla has outsold the Civic. Period. Numbers to follow.
The GM trucks are even better no question. They sell more and they make more money. You are proving my point. But this discussion is only about the Camry and the Corolla. Stick to the subject.
Nowhere on the toyoto website does it use the word "Corolla" with the Matrix name.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Consumer Comparison Test: 2008 Economy Sedans
The number I remember seeing is that women influence 80% of all car purchases. Around here it's 100% - I try to drive them into the ground and avoid buying, but I almost got drug out shopping yesterday. The carological clock is ticking and time is running out before I have to add a new one to the stable. C'mon clunker kickback.
2004...333K vs 308K
2005...341K vs 308K
2006...387K vs 316K
2007...371K vs 331K
2008...351K vs 339K
The Corolla and Corolla Matix has outsold the Civic, the Civic coupe and the Civic hybrid every one of the last 5 year and obviously for all 5 yrs combined. I wouldn't have made the statement if I didn't already know the answer.
imidazol97...??
I can't believe that you're an auto enthusiast and you didn't know that the Matrix was officially called the Corolla Matrix. Same frame, same powertrain, same lines, different skin ( see Mazda3 hatchback ). Were you serious or were you joking wiki
Just go by the authority, the Toyota website.
I even checked with a higher authority, Edmunds, and don't see Corolla and Matrix in the same title anywhere through the pricing or descriptions. Hmmmm.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Also last time I checked the Civic or Mazda3 or Cobalt did not include a 4wd option. I think that would classify as another powertrain. If you want to talk powertrains and frames, the Civic, Honda CR-V, and Acura RDX all have the same frame. Should those be lumped together?
The sales thing doesn't hold. Price has a huge affect on sales, and Toyota sells tons of barebones Corollas laced with incentives.
Also you haven't explain while sales don't show that the GMT's and F-150 are Americas best automobile. Going by that logic the Tundra is a stinker.
Do you work for Toyota? :confuse:
I know this is part of Ford's strategy as the new Fiesta, Focus and Fusion will be made (or assembled) in Mexico. As much as I don't blame the UAW for GM's and Chrysler's problem, our labor costs are too high and need to be cut. This situation reminds me of the steel industry. The UAW will have to give more and probably will at the last moment, kicking and screaming. It still won't be enough since the bondholders are the key. They hold most of GM's secure debt and will make out better in a GM bankruptcy then doing any kind of deal now.
Everything I have read the UAW contracts may not be voided under a bankruptcy but gives GM more leverage to force negotiations, since a Chapter 11 could lead to a chapter 7 liquidation very quickly. It would not surprise me if GM decided to declare bankruptcy this week. Henderson seems like he "gets it" and realizes they have very few if any options so why waste time. The bondholders aren't willing to negotiate and the UAW is digging in. What else can you do but declare bankruptcy and start GM back on the road to recovery? It will be painful but GM has the opportunity to come out a much better company.
Chrysler? What can you say?
Where have you read that? I'm by no means an expert on bankruptcy law, but my understanding is that any contract can be voided under either chapter of BK law. Any expert BK lawyers (marsha7), care to comment here?
Not all bondholders are rich scions who feel like they can use the tax write-off. This bondholder paid $40,000 for some GM bonds 5 years ago that are now worth $10,000. She's an 81-year-old New York widow. Some 20% of the bondholders are individuals like her. (WSJ link).
We and she will never get that money back but it's no reason to screw her out of that last $10K either. This is the stuff that is infuriating when you watch the big wigs walking away with their millions.
Next up - a 'Surgical’ Bankruptcy for GM. (NY Times)
"The preparations are aimed at assuring a G.M. bankruptcy filing is ready should the company be unable to reach agreement with bondholders to exchange roughly $28 billion in debt into equity in G.M. and with the United Automobile Workers union, which has balked at granting concessions without sacrifices from bondholders.
President Obama, who was elected with strong backing from labor, remained concerned about potential risk to G.M.’s pension plan and wants to avoid harming workers, these people said."
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://www.worldcarfans.com/9071031.051/toyota-unveils-all-new-corolla-matrix-at- -sema
http://compact-cars.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_toyota_corolla_matrix_an_unbias- ed_review
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4229492.html
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/corolla-matrix/
http://blogs.motortrend.com/6220282/auto-shows/2009-toyota-corolla-toyota-coroll- a-matrix-sema-style/index.html
You know that I can go on and on. As I said previously I wouldn't have posted that statement if I didn't already know the answer. Next case.
Here's a hint: ( it's also why I wouldn't have stated what I did without knowing the answer first ) Check the real source... go to the respective Honda and Toyota websites. Gosh what a concept.
Honda: Honda Sales 2008 vs 2007
Civic YTD ... 2008 vs 2007 = 339K vs 331K
Toyota: Toyota Sales 2008 vs 2007
Corolla YTD ... 2008 vs 2007 = 351K vs 371K
Also you haven't explain while sales don't show that the GMT's and F-150 are Americas best automobile. Going by that logic the Tundra is a stinker.
Sentence No 1. Now you're getting the point. Yes, precisely. Toyota is making a barebones vehicle to appeal to the largest segment of buyers at a price and volume which the other can't reach. This is precisely the misunderstanding that I was mentioning in your first several posts. This is intentional.
Sentence No 2. HUH??? The F150 and GMT900s are trucks!!! This discussion has been only about autos because you originally mentioned the Camry and the Corolla. You seem to be thrashing around for ways to justify your original misconception.. All you have to say is 'I don't understand how...........'
Here was your original statement that set off this little tangential discussion:
The Corolla is stale, the Tundra has had problems since inception (truck bed falling off), and the Camry looks cheap on ugly. If the Camry didn't have its great name a low price they would not be selling so much.
While your personal opinion is certainly valid all the facts you presented subsequently to try to justify your opinion were fallacious. The fact that your personal opinion doesn't jive with the largest number of buyers might lead you to reconsider... but I guess not, Huh? :shades: Peace, argue from facts in the future.
Yes, he does. As I recall, he sells them. :shades:
The pendulum swings too far the other way after bonuses are paid to failed management. Despite the public begging of our auto/banking industry last year, there are sour grapes by some of the C.E.O.'s? Now they want to pay back bailout funds ASAP! Interesting that some firms continue to have bad management going forward at some of the largest firms in the world.
Regards,
OW
Yet GM bonds were exactly that, an investment. GM analysts had been predicting bankruptcy for years. Either Fortune of Money Magazine had written an expose on this years ago. Any sensible and conservative investor would have steered clear of these bonds.
At her age I'm sure that her adviser is largely at fault yet the tax payers job is not to insure bad investments. (Even though it looks like that is what TARP is doing.) :mad:
Thanks for reminding why I should stay away from Toyota dealerships. :shades:
You drink more kool-aide than the GM salesman.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090413/us_nm/us_autos_gm
If GM is filing Chptr 11, what is Chrysler going to do? Liquidate?
I hope the tax payer gets paid back first in both these filings.