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2008 Chrysler T&C & Dodge Caravan brake life expectancy!

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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    you assume the poster is employed by Chrysler because he/she suggests changing your brake fluid, a product that degrades over time? Geesh.

    yahooligan is completely correct. Brake fluid is not a "lifetime" fluid. BTW, I'm also going to have the transmission fluid changed in our town & country at the next service visit. I don't believe ANY fluid in a vehicle is "lifetime."

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    jmoran23jmoran23 Member Posts: 1
    My story sounds exactly like yours. I have changed my brake pads and rotors (3) times and my van only has 67,000 miles on it. I am at wits end because Chrysler does nothing. My doors do not always close when I press the button, I always check to see if there is a toy or something in the way but never anything. If you are not careful the door will close on you, I keep the kids away from it. Just had another issue this morning, my car completely died on me today, checked the oil, none. Just had the oil done, there was no indication on my dash board that alarmed me I was low on oil.
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    lilmick80lilmick80 Member Posts: 1
    My doors too had the sliding close issue. Dealership did a code upgrade which cleared the problem.
    For the brakes, including the originals i'm on my 4th set and have 51K miles. Already hear the grinding going as if the caliper is stuck closed again. Chrysler did a recall, I used twice, so only paid $150 in total for brakes as they did reimburse each time. But now with higher mileage that isn't going to happen. My mechanic says the 2008 were a newer and worse design they did, and will continue to fail.
    Newest issue is oil light comes on when i hit the brakes, oil is good so is brake fluid. I change oil every 3500 miles with tire rotation every 3rd. The brake fluid was drained last year when my guy had to work on the caliper which was stuck.
    Had an issue with the A/C each spring, another recall they fixed for free as it seems to be prone to leak over the winter. This past spring no issue and it was hard winter in NE, so I think that problem is gone.
    Other than that I actually love the damn thing with all the room for the kid's gear, sat radio and dual DVds for road trips.
    Are you all signed up to get the recall notices? not quite sure how i'm getting them, but they mail it to me and I let the dealership deal with it.
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    timothyftimothyf Member Posts: 40
    Has anyone had their 2008 T&C front wheel bearings replaced under Chrysler's warranty letter program?
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    thomasxthomasx Member Posts: 7
    Does anyone know of any information on the web on what the actual root cause of this brake problem is, or a forum where that is specifically discussed?

    I sent an email to the swedish chrysler agent with a couple of questions about the brake issue and any possible good-will. They didn't even bother to answer me. This was my first and last chrysler, that's for sure.
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    dieterhunddieterhund Member Posts: 3
    Hello Thomas,

    The root cause of the problem is that it´s a design fault with the brakes. The brakes are simply too small for the car. This apparently was changed in late 2009 or 2010 and the problem has been resolved. However, the people who have the 2008/2009 models with the brake problem are more or less screwed.

    Our dealer says it is not uncommon to have to change the brakes and rotors on these cars every 20-25k km....which is basically insane. With that said, I think your best bet is to buy some aftermarket performance brakes...like EBC ultimax with yellow pads....these brakes are drilled and slotted and will take heat much better than the current OEM parts from Chrysler. The performance parts are expensive but they are about the same price as the original OEM parts which are no bargain either.

    So in the end, there is no solution.

    There is however a class action lawsuit regarding this problem which can be found here:

    lemberglaw . com/class-action-cali.php
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    thomasxthomasx Member Posts: 7
    Hi

    Thanks for your reply. Yes, no doubt there's a design flaw. Unfortunately however I don't quite buy that it is just the brakes that are too small. At least not on ours. All four brakes often get hot (and I mean hot) even when they have not been used. Some times I have noticed that they are so stuck when driving away that I noticed the car is "heavy" and stops way to quick if I just release the gas. Brake performance also indicate there is no real problem with the size of the brakes. Hitting the brakes hard and the car stops real quick.

    As you say, the solution is to change the brakes. However, I believe the problem is just not with the calipers, pads and rotors, but might also be with the master cylinder or other parts further up in the system. I've sent a question to brembo on what parts I would need from them to replace the whole system. But it doesn't seem like they care to answer.

    Our car is around 45k miles without changing the rotors, so compared to others we are fairly lucky anyway.
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    edited January 2012
    If what you say is true about late '09s and '10s having larger brakes, then why not just swap out for those brakes? It would require the rotors, calipers, and pads, but if they truly are superior and cure the problem, then it is worth the expense.

    EDIT: However, I just looked up a set of rotors for the 2008 and 2010. They are the same part numbers. So I think somebody fed you false information.

    I had the thought that we could swap out for something like Cherokee SRT8 brakes. I haven't been able to figure out yet if this is even feasible, though. Don't know if they would fit within our stock wheels or even mate up with our hubs, etc.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    pamelalebpamelaleb Member Posts: 22
    sorry Don't get your hopes up on the class action lawsuit. I just received a call from Att. Hirnky fom Lemberg and he stated that the courts have dismissed the lawsuit.
    Pam
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    cnmaraudercnmarauder Member Posts: 1
    The door issue is on recall bring it to dealership to get fixed. We just had 3 recalls fixed now our ABS system is acting up.
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    bobc5bobc5 Member Posts: 8
    I was looking for the same info. The rotor is not the problem so much as the tiny brake pads or the calipers IMHO. Is there a change in the calipers or size of the brake pads between 08-12 ? I am starting to get the feeling that they made a boat load of bad calipers on these. If not why isnt every single one of these vans replacing brakes at 12k miles like I have? Of course I won't test this theory until the next brake change and since I put EBC yellow stuffs on there I am hoping to get more mileage but not holding my breath.

    Will let you know how they look after 5k when spring rolls around.

    BTW I had bendix ceramics on front and a different brand on the back. I had raybestos rotors. Fronts gone in 11k miles this time. Backs look half gone but I didnt change them out. Stealership gave me a 1/2 truth when I had the van in for the recall on a vent tube. Said I needed brakes all the way around. Very sad.
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    We haven't had any problems yet. Bought the van with 23k, and it now has 44k. I just checked the brakes and the fronts are still like new and the rears have about half the life left in them.

    Just checked the caliper listings and, for at least the first manufacturer I pulled up (A1 Cardone), the calipers are the same part numbers for 2008 as 2011.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    bigbone4ubigbone4u Member Posts: 5
    www.atlautosports.com I had to call them to order the rotors. The slotted and drilled reduce heat by about 3000 degrees. The vans are way to heavy for the rotors that are factory installed thus causing excessive heat to the rotors and warping them. You can order the drilled and slotted rotors with pads for all 4 wheels for around $250 through that company.
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    bigbone4ubigbone4u Member Posts: 5
    www.atlautosports.com drilled and slotted rotors and pads for all 4 wheels cost me about $250.
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    You linked that same site back in August. I asked you then for a link to the product and you never replied. It is rather obvious you work for them. Why not have the site updated with the proper product and link us right to it? Although that would be a violation of terms, at least it would be a better attempt at solicitation.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    dieterhunddieterhund Member Posts: 3
    This is not really too difficult to find. You can find drill and slotted rotors on ebay for $220 for Town & Country 2008+

    http://www. ebay. com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=drilled+slotted+chrysler+- town+country&_sacat=See-All-Categories
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    Yes, this is true. But it seems, for that price, you get no-name, probably made in China, stuff.

    However, thanks for the tip. I did find EBC brand on Ebay. They do cost over $400 for the set of rotors only.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    bigbone4ubigbone4u Member Posts: 5
    Ok, I dont work for them, I work for the US Navy. I had to call the company because I didnt see the brakes for the van listed. When I did call the lady that I spoke with new the issue with the brakes after I told her that it was for a 08 Town & Country. Yea, so, your welcome for the help.
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    edited January 2012
    If that is true, I apologize for jumping to conclusions. But I'm sure you can understand how I would think someone who had ONLY posted 3 times, and every post was a link to that site, wasn't being totally honest.

    So you've had them on since August? How are they working out for you? How many miles? What condition are the rotors and pads in now?

    What was the brand name of the parts you received?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    danemichdanemich Member Posts: 1
    Just got mine back from the dealer today. Seemed both of mine were bad. One problem after another with this vehicle.
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    bobc5bobc5 Member Posts: 8
    edited January 2012
    I was curious about the benefits of the drilled rotors. Slotted Rotors?

    What do you think about what this guy says? It makes sense to me. I am really wondering what your experience is with the parts? Right now I have EBC Yellowstuff pads on the front we will see how that works out with raybestos rotors which have now been cut after just 11k miles.
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    worshipdancerworshipdancer Member Posts: 1
    If I may ask were the brakes squealing?
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    dieterhunddieterhund Member Posts: 3
    The Dodge Journey uses the same brake parts as the Town & Country:

    Chrysler Dodge Journey Owners and Lessees File Class Action Lawsuit Complaint Against Chrysler Over Alleged Defects In the Dodge Journey’s Braking System’s Brake Pads and Rotors.

    A class action lawsuit has been filed against Chrysler Group LLC (“Chrysler” or “Defendant”) in the United States District Court for the District of New Jersey (styled Gabriella Tatum and Jamie Meyer v. Chrysler Group LLC, Civil Case No. 2:10-cv-04269-DMC -JAD) alleging, among other things, that the 2009 and 2010 Chrysler Dodge Journey suffers from a design defect in its braking system in that the brake pads and rotors are too small and thin to handle the braking duties required by the size and weight of the Chrysler Dodge Journey purportedly resulting in an increase in brake wear and causing brakes to potentially fail as early as 12,000 miles, requiring early replacement of brake pads or shaving or resurfacing of brake rotors, according to class action lawsuit news reports

    http://classactionlawsuitsinthenews.com/class-action-lawsuit-complaints/chrysler- -dodge-journey-class-action-lawsuit-complaint-filed-over-chrysler-dodge-journey-- brake-pads-brake-rotors/comment-page-1/
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    bigbone4ubigbone4u Member Posts: 5
    I bought rotors and pads through www.atlautosports.com. They gave hawk pads that last about 3000 miles. The drilled and slotted rotors are great. I'm about to order some green stuff ebc pads because they are so much harder than most. It's too bad there so expensive though. The drilled and slotted rotors and hawk pads for all 4 wheels cost me about $250, which is not too much more than other lower end rotors and pads. I hope this helps!
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    bigbone, can you please answer my post #380?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    moparguy70moparguy70 Member Posts: 2
    I mainly service my own vehicles and my 06 t and c touring brakes worn down, both new rotors and pads, in the first 15k. I recently replaced the second pair of pads at 65k. conclusion is the factory brakes are crap.
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    moparguy70moparguy70 Member Posts: 2
    edited February 2012
    my 06 t and c touring has a 3.8 engine. suddenly is having coolant overflow problems. thought it was rad cap and replaced it. checked thermostat and fan operation and they checked out okay. pressure tested rad and tested tight. praying its not a head gasket on its way out, with only 65k. The grabber is the van has never shown any signs of overheating... go figure.
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    abutcherabutcher Member Posts: 33
    Wrong forum, this is for 08 and newer Chrysler minvan brakes.
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    annfromjerseyannfromjersey Member Posts: 38
    I came across this Lemon Law Blog while doing research on my 08 T&C - which I did file Lemon Law.

    http://www.lemonlaw.com/wordpress/dodge-chrysler-brake-problems/

    If we all file Lemon Law then Chrysler would have no choice but to deal with the issue!!
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    I finally answered my own questions on this, since the poster bigbone seems to avoid them.

    I contacted this atlautosports myself yesterday to inquire about their brakes. They do offer slotted, crossdrilled rotors for the T&C... HOWEVER, that is only because they take OEM rotors and slot and drill them themselves. So if you want the same crappy OEM rotors, then that's the place to call. I won't be ordering from there.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    timothyftimothyf Member Posts: 40
    Just go to The Place for Brakes. You can buy EBC's at a good price and the brake problem is solved.
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    Which rotors did you buy? The slotted/drilled are pretty pricey.

    I'm going to see if I can get a rep on the line at Brake Motive. From what I've read, they sell Stoptech rotors for our T&C for cheap.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    edited April 2012
    So I could never get a hold of anyone at Brake Motive and finally gave up after several days of trying.

    I found a place called cquence brakes that I found many good reviews for on, of all places, Corvette forums. I figured if it is good enough for them, it should be good enough for our minivan.

    Got THEM on the phone on the first try. Ordered up their top-of-the-line crossdrilled and slotted rotors for all 4 corners. Total was a quite cheap $214 shipped. They arrived a couple of days later.

    They seem to be very nice. They are quite heavy. I also purchased ceramic/metallic pads from Amazon (the cquence pads were quite pricey) and changed the fluid while I was at it. So far I can report that the van stops amazingly well now. No vibrating, of course. The brake feel is improved greatly and the pedal height and bite is very consistent (which I can't say about the stock brakes). Hopefully they will hold up over the long term.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    wise1wise1 Member Posts: 91
    Could anyone tell me where the cabin air filter is on a 2005 Dodge caravan. The manual says under the instrument panel on the passenger side, I didn't see any "DOOR" to swing open. Sorry to ask this in the brake discussion but I don't have all night to see where I should ask this question. Thanks :confuse: :confuse:
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    edited May 2012
    sorry, but you are even in the wrong generation for this question. Even if I go find it on my '08, it wouldn't help you in your '05.

    EDIT: Ok, a quick google search and this is the first link that popped up: 2005 Grand Caravan cabin filter replacement

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    If your 2005 is like our 2007, then you only have a replaceable cabin filter if you have the automatic climate control system. If you have the manual climate control system (like ours), then the cabin air filter is still under the glove compartment, but the plastic housing is sealed.
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    abutcherabutcher Member Posts: 33
    This forum is for 2008 to current Chrysler minivan brake life expentancy, not for cabin filter locations. Start a new post to get an answer to your question. Sorry to hear you don't have time to look for the proper location, please come back when you do have time or simply just start a new thread.
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    bobc5bobc5 Member Posts: 8
    I was wondering if you have taken a look at how well the brakes are holding up with the setup you went with? How many miles since April?

    I changed the calipers up front this last time around (had to change again at 7k miles)

    Looking at everything I am begining to wonder if the steel wheel-hubcap combo isnt making the problem worse. The car is pretty low to the ground and there are very few holes in the rim for venting air into the brakes. It seems like Dodge designed a nice little oven in there.

    I wonder how many people with sub 20k brake wear problems are using this wheel combo verse the alloy star type rim that allows a lot of air through.
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    probably about 5-6k in these past 3 months based on the wife's driving habits. Brakes are still like new.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    annfromjerseyannfromjersey Member Posts: 38
    www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml

    If we want anything to be done with all these complaints about the brakes - YOU MUST FILE COMPLAINTS WITH National Highway Traffic Safety.

    I just replaced my brakes for the 3rd time with 45,000 miles on 2008 van.

    I had 1 mil left on the brakes with very little warning!!! The repair shop said I could have been in an accident from brake failure. I have two small children - this van is dangerous!

    Chrsyler refuses to acknowledge the problem and after an hour on the phone with them - the rep told me that only NHTSA has the power to do another recall on the brakes!!!!!!

    My van is out of warranty and they WILL DO NOTHING TO HELP ME.

    Every complaint is researched and acknowledge. Even if it was awhile ago - you must report it!!!! Chrsyler is not giving them the information.
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    focuspullerfocuspuller Member Posts: 3
    I had to do a brake and rotor replacement on my 2008 T&C.

    I did the work myself.

    In using EBC Green Stuff Pads I found that the part number for a 2008 T&C is the same as for a Jeep Wrangler 3.8 and a Dodge Nitro 3.7. Both of these vehicles weigh less than the T&C. This could be why the brakes wear out so fast.

    I used EBC DP71798 pads in the front and DP61840 in the rear.

    EBC slotted and dimpled rotors. Front GD7442, Rear GD7443.

    Also installed new hardware from rockauto.com.

    Raybestos H5774A Disc Hardware Kit Front qty 1
    H5819A Disc Hardware Kit Rear qty 1
    H15176 Caliper Bolt Front qty 2
    H15234 Caliper Bolt Rear qty 2

    Got Speed Bleeders from https://ssl.zoovy.com/c=RRXvJj9QZX0RlN7CQORNdB38l/s=www.speedbleeder.zoovy.com/

    This makes bleeding the brakes and easy one person job.

    I used the Stainless Steel ones model SB1010-SS

    And flushed the low quality brake fluid that came on the van (this is what is causing the calipers to freeze up) with ATE Super Blue Racing Brake Fluid, (very high boiling point).

    When you use the Blue you can see that the old has been flushed out. They also make an amber with the same specs so that the next fluid change you can see when the blue has all been flushed out.

    Last but not least go to Autozone and borrow brake setting tools for the rear brakes.

    You will need some lube for the caliper pins and neversieze (spell?) for the bolts and on the hub surface where your rims touch the rotor.

    Google how to change brakes on a 2008 T&C.

    Took me two hours by myself including the brake bleed.

    I was lucky in that my brakes went before 12,000 miles. I also received a letter from Chrysler saying they would pay for front brakes under warranty (12,000 or one year). I billed them for the for fronts, plus labor at the dealer rate. I got a check less about $2.00 for the repair.
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    Just to add something here. Car & Driver just summed up their long-term test with a Honda Odyssey. It also had braked problems, including warped rotors. So its not just Chrysler!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    abutcherabutcher Member Posts: 33
    What does Honda Odyssey brakes have anythong to do with Chrysler brakes???
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    Exactly nothing. Which is the point. All manufacturers have their problems. Read the whole thread (and the other threads on this same subject) and see for yourself all of the "Chrysler sucks" and "I'll never buy another chrysler" and similar comments. So I find it very interesting when the manufacturer at least half of those people would flock to for a replacement has the exact same problem.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    thomasxthomasx Member Posts: 7
    There may be many things in common we do not know about.

    And there is now ONE report of problems with one Odyssey that we know about, against how many T&C's and law suits, globally?

    Don't try to belittle the T&C brake problem just because another car is reported with warped rotors. Lot's of cars end up with warped rotors sooner or later, that does not mean the model have huge brake issues, like the T&C does.
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    "Huge" issues that are solved by NOT using OEM parts. I've never owned a car that did NOT have a recurring problem with at least one OEM part.

    I'm not belittling it, but I'm also not blowing it out of proportion like some other posters.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    bobc5bobc5 Member Posts: 8
    Not to argue against your point but I have tried from the expensive to the cheap aftermarket parts on this problem and so far have not had any success. Both rear calipers were recalled on my van and as you know from another post I have replaced the fronts now.

    I replaced the front calipers on the advice of a "Dodge Expert" who claims that they have a "known" problem with the front calipers not being bad but hanging a little to much and not releasing. I have around 2500 miles on the brakes now and will check them again at 5k. We will see what happens.

    Every car is only a machine and yes all machines will eventually have problems despite the best marketing of the manufacturer. Dodge under engineered brakes on a FAMILY vehicle. To me that is next to a crime and may actually be one if people lose their lives due to that fact. The last place anyone should cut costs is the brakes.
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,061
    I'm sorry to hear that. So you replaced the rotors with aftermarket units? Which ones?

    If you keep having a problem no matter what you install, I also wonder if, as you posted a while ago, the wheels are causing cooling problems for you.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Solicitation by attorneys or anyone else, particularly for lawsuits, is expressly prohibited by the Edmunds.com Membership Agreement, and any such posts will be removed.

    kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
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