Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid

dmathews3

but in the back of your mind you always have to wonder. Even after the fix. Will it Stop?

jimmy89

I have not noticed what they are refering to about the feel in transition.
Mine was made in may. The braking feels fine. Wander if anyone else has notice the "feeling"

dmathews3

Mine was built in Sept and and stops/feels just fine.

rogerinvermont

I agree.

This is a software problem that affects (effects?) regenerative braking, not the ability of the car to stop.

The good news is that if the car's braking behaves erratically, the brake warning light goes on --- but you still have anti-lock brakes.

This is not a fundamental flaw, as may be the case with the hardware design issue of Toyota autos.

If Toyota were not having their break problems, this would not even be a story.

Remember that good design not only tries to eliminate flaws, but has the capability of being upgraded without difficulty when flaws are discovered later. That's what is happening here.

Rog

hayley2

Has anyone noticed a marked decrease in mileage for those whom live in cold climates. Here in Central IL my average mileage has gone down from about 40 Plus MPG to about 35 MPG. Seems that because of the cold, the engine heat drops quite fast and the engine kicks on and stays on until it reaches a certain temperature before it goes into electric mode. On another note, just returned from Florida a 2200 mile round trip and averaged the entire trip was 35.5 MPG. This was mostly hiway driving with very few opportunites to be in electric mode. I was ok with the mileage.

larsb

You are correct. I have owned two different hybrids since 2004.

Hybrid cars do not perform at peak performance ( i.e. highest miles per gallon ) until the engine reaches a certain operating temperature and starts utilizing the hybrid powertrain most effectively.

Cold weather means your hybrid is using it's gasoline engine MORE OFTEN and it's hybrid powertrain LESS OFTEN at the start of most trips.

If your commute or trip is short in a cold weather area, especially if you are using the heater ( and therefore the air compressor, using gasoline ) then the mileage your car achieves will be far lower than in more moderate climates.

This is a problem with all the hybrids on the road today, as far as I know.

Nothing can be done other than storing the car in a warm garage or using an engine block heater or an oil pan heater to help the car get "up to temperature" faster.

acdii

Short trip or long trip doesn't matter when it goes below 30*. I had a Prius and a Camry and both would run on ICE even when doing 25 MPH. It rarely if ever shut down the ICE and stay in EV when it was really cold. I lost 3 MPG in the Camry and 6 MPG in the Prius during the winter. All cars for that matter lose MPG in winter due to the cold and winter gas blends, just not in the same extreme you will see in a Hybrid.

larsb

acdii says, "Short trip or long trip doesn't matter when it goes below 30*."

That's an interesting statement.

I know of Prius drivers who have not had a problem using E-mode below 30, and I never have had that problem thus far in my 2007 TCH. In fact, I drove in a blizzard in December 2009, temps in the upper 20's, and I was using E-mode for sure.

I wonder what the technical specs say in regard to that?

rogerinvermont

I live in northern Vermont. My FFH mileage has dropped from about 40.1 mpg to bout 37 to 38 mpg, depending upon how cold it is.

1) You gotta heat the interior. So the ICE will run a lot more. Whether the running ICE is also being used to give power to the drive chain when traveling at low speed -- I don't know.

2) You gotta heat the catalytic converter. (It doesn't work well when cold.) I don't know whether they are monitoring the catalytic converter temperature.

3) As others have pointed out, the gasoline companies drop the octane a bit in the winter, since the colder weather gives greater temperature difference.

4) Winter tires can reduce mpg. So can snowy roads.

So my question to haylay2 is: why did you return from Florida?!

Rog in northern Vermont

hayley2

Rog in Vermont - Wife & I did a cruise on "The Oasis of the Seas" out of Ft. Lauderdale, FL and we were anxious to see our "Golden Retriever". Since returning, we've had some very nasty cold snowy weather. Should have stayed on second thought. We love our Milan HB, and accept that we will just not get the mileage we do as in the summer months.

[Deleted User]

All cars for that matter lose MPG in winter due to the cold and winter gas blends, just not in the same extreme you will see in a Hybrid. Actually, many non-hybrids lose as much or more mpg in really cold weather as hybrids do. Warm-ups take longer, components are colder and sluggish, and shoving very frigid air into the engine on the highway means the engine operates a bit less efficiently even when fully warmed up. Folks may not be watching their mileage as much as hybrid owners do, but the drop is there. My VW TDI loses an average of 5 mpg in winter. My Suzuki goes from about 31 mpg highway to about 27. Of course it has been unusually cold here in the tundra of Wisconsin.

acdii

My fusion lost 1 MPG this winter, the Camry saw a 4 MPG drop. My F350 loses about 1.5 MPG winter, but it is all relative when you percent it out. 20% of 40MPG is about the same as 20% of 18 MPG. Hybrids are much more noticeable because of the high numbers they achieve.

milanesus

I just bought my Milan Hybrid in February and the blended mileage rating has been rising the longer I go. Started about 29 and rose to 34.9 now. What's frustrating is that the EV becomes unavailable and the thermometer image changes from green (warm enough) to white. What's that about? How can it get cold during a drive?

acdii

In order to meet the ULEV emissions, the ICE needs to run in order to keep the cats hot, when on pure EV, the engine doesn't run so the cats cool down. When they dip below a set value, the ICE will come on to warm them back up, whether you have full batteries or not.

milanesus

Thanks. It's been driving me crazy.

acdii

Welcome. 3 years driving hybrids, you learn a lot about them. The first winter I was the same way. Why the heck is the engine running at a stop light! I like the hybrid concept, I just didn't like the cars, it is too bad Ford came out with their FFH a year after I bought the Camry, or I would have snapped one of them up instead and still be driving it. I just couldnt see paying more than I was for the Camry for the Fusion Hybrid, so I got the Sport instead, saved about $40 a month, and went totally backwards, from a clean green 38 MPG down to a mean high powered 24 MPG. :shades: Oh well maybe in the next 5 years I will get a FFH, the teen is nearing driving age, heck maybe I will stick him in a Prius Gen I. :P

subearu

I've been keeping MPG records of our vehicles since 2000 and can see the effects of the colder winter temps on MPG too. About a 15% reduction in our MPG records over the years.

Not sure if it's possible or feasible, but if the engine is already warm enough (based on coolant temp), but the cats are cooled off, why run the motor to heat the cats? How about a heater of some sort to keep the cats near their necessary temperature when required?

-Brian

acdii

Doing that would draw energy from the batteries, which would defeat the purpose. I think in the Prius there is a supplemental cat heater, but don't quote me on that. You can block off the radiator on the hybrids during the winter which helps somewhat.

monte8

Add a block heater to pre-warm the engine.

subearu

Yeah, several of the FFH in Wisconsin have had that already installed as an included option on the sticker. Mine came up from Illinois and didn't have it. How big of a deal is it to install the engine block heater? And while this will warm the engine, it doesn't warm the cats, so they'd still need to warm up. Sure it will be quicker from a warm motor though.

-Brian

monte8

It is simple for the dealer (or a good repair shop) to install. Of course, it will be more expensive than if it had been factory ordered.

texases

While it's nice to have a block heater as far as warming up quicker, the purchase+installation+electricity might not pay off in terms of gas saved.

subearu

So, do they really use that much electricity? I'm fine w/o one, car is garaged in the winter so it isn't that bad.

-Brian

texases

I don't know, what, maybe 500 watts? That'd be a kilowatt-hour over 2 hours, which is about $.15. Not much, but you're not going to save much gas doing it, either.

subearu

Good point. Still curious if anyone out there with the FFH with the block heater has any input to add here.

-Brian

dmathews3

Ihave the block heater and see a little switchover to elec. mode sooner than without but being such a cold blooded beast I do see heat a whole lot sooner than without the heater.

acdii

The block heater keeps the water jacket warm, which in turn keeps the oil warm so that the engine is easier to start and requires less warm up time. It cuts down on the warm up cycle, and if parked outside helps with clearing the windows quicker. But at 1000 to 1500 watts of juice to power it up, you should have it going no more than 4 hours, or you will be paying more for electricity than what you burn in gas to warm it up. My F350 has a block heater, so when parked outside I have it on a timer, but when in the garage I don't use the heater. It did help when it was really cold out, but anything above 10* it didn't make much difference.

dmathews3

I have to disagree with the part where the heater also keeps the oil warm. Most of the oil drains back into the oil pan where it IS NOT heated with the block heater. Only the little bit of oil still in the engine itself which is what maybe a half quart to a quart?

acdii

The only oil that drains back is that which is expelled in the heads from the rockers and lifters. If the oil system is working properly then all the oil passages should have oil in them to prevent a dry start. That is the oil the gets heated. The heat from the block will also transfer down the piston rods and into the crank, so some part of it will also be resting in the oil, so in some small way, some heat does reach the pan, and when it is really cold out, every little bit helps.

bigt

I have 17k miles on my Milian HB and now that it has warmed up here in DC I am starting to get some really great mileage figures. On my 12 mile drive to and from work I am getting 43-48 mpg. On my 30 mile drive to my friends house I am getting 42. One day in rush hour stop and go 25 miles I was over 45 mpg for the trip that had me in the car for almost 90 minutes with the air running the whole time.

I do the MKZ Hybrid coming out this fall. Wow, someone listened!

timothyf

Any one think having a surface smooth pressure sensitive switch at say the 10 o'clock position on the steering wheel to create a manual override keeping the electric motor operating up till the 47 mph might be a good new idea? This way the driver won't need such a soft touch on the accelerator all the time to max mpg.

PF_Flyer

Well the first thought that occurs to me is that while it might sound like a good idea, the battery/electric motor system wasn't planned or designed to do what you plan to do to it. You might be maximizing MPG, but how are you affecting battery and electric motor life? There are always unintended consequences. My gut is telling me that you're voiding any warranty with that kind of modification.

akirby

Exactly. If it was ok to do that then the computer would already be doing it.

acdii

Simple, it is not an electric car, it is an electric assist car. If Ford wanted it to run up to 47MPH on battery alone they would put bigger batteries in. The trick is to get it up to speed using the hybrid system, and then switch to all electric. This maximizes fuel economy. If you can learn the pulse and glide technique, you can then get the car to go longer distances on electric, while using very little gas to keep it there. Very hard to do, and if some putz gets in front and slows down, even harder.

timothyf

Any one know how FFH sales are doing in relation to their plant's production capacity? Is Ford's FFH production capacity still restricted by available battery packs? Given that there are limited rebates it would seem to indicate that either they are currently priced with limited room to drop over production costs or at production capacity.

stevedebi

"Any one know how FFH sales are doing in relation to their plant's production capacity? Is Ford's FFH production capacity still restricted by available battery packs? Given that there are limited rebates it would seem to indicate that either they are currently priced with limited room to drop over production costs or at production capacity. "

I was recently at Galpin Ford in North Hills, CA, which is the #1 Ford dealer in the US. The salesman said that they could not sell the hybrid FFH because there were no rebates. They have 73 on the lot, in stock. They only had 4 FEH, which also do not sell because of their cost and lack of rebates.

But in any case, they are not going to ramp up production just so that they can slap rebates on them!

moparbad

Milan was at 90 days supply at dealers for June.
There is a $1500 marketing support to dealer on Milan Hybrid, now is the time to buy if you are willing to buy a Milan instead of Fusion.
Sales are slow on the Ford hybrids overall. Inventory is widely variable in different markets with some dealers having none or just a few and others having dozens.
No rebate and no tax credit compared to strong incentives on the non-hybrid models is hurting sales.

badgerfan

Looks like California is overloaded with Fusion Hybrids. In Milwaukee, WI area, there are only about 4-5 Fusion Hybrids in stock total among 5-6 dealers, which really limits anyone looking to buy off the lot.

stevedebi

"Looks like California is overloaded with Fusion Hybrids. In Milwaukee, WI area, there are only about 4-5 Fusion Hybrids in stock total among 5-6 dealers, which really limits anyone looking to buy off the lot. "

Well, hey! Fly out to Disneyland ... and drive back in a FFH!

timothyf

Anyone know how to replace the cabin air filter on a 2010 FFH? I can get the glove box door down, but I haven't figured out the next steps. Thanks, Tim

acdii

There is a tab on the left side of the cover, press it to the right and it comes right out.

Kirstie_H

A reporter is interested in talking with owners of the Ford Fusion Hybrid who are also parents. If you are interested in commenting on your experience, please reply to pr@edmunds.com no later than Saturday, November 20, 2010 and include your city and state of residence, the model year of your vehicle and the age of your child/ren.

Thanks for your consideration,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds Inc.

wilcox

It appears "press request" announcements tend stop interest in topics. Why not start your own topic on the reporters research request.

PF_Flyer

Not so much. Some discussions are barn burners, some run in fits and starts.

doctored5

I got a Lincoln MKZ hybrid, which is the same car mechanically as the Fusion hybrid. The manual says it will go 10,000 miles between oil changes. The dealer recommends changing the oil every 5,000 miles. Currently the car has about 4,600 miles and the gauge shows 54% of the oil life left. This puts me on track to go up to 10,000 miles on the oil.

How frequently have people with Ford hybrids been changing their oil?

acdii

They are using full synthetic now, and are following the same intervals as toyota does. If going 10k makes you nervous, change it at 7500. On my Sport, I am doing the 7500 mile thing, its what they recommend, my Flex Ecoboost, the recommended is 7500, but after seeing the oil the first 7500, I decided to go with 5000 intervals.

rogerinvermont

I agree with [acdii]. The days of 3-5K oil changes are over. Newer oil formulations, synthetic oil, cleaner burning engines make for greater mileage between changes.

Ford would not be telling you 10K if it didn't know that that was optimum for the engine.

Both Consumer Reports and Click-and-Clack state to follow the manufacturer's instructions.

There are two "howevers" however:

1) If you travel on dirty roads -- I live in rural Vermont and many of the roads are unpaved.

2) You put little mileage on the car (but then why buy a hybrid?).

The only disagreement with [acdii] I have is determining the current effectiveness of the oil with how it looks. Synthetic oils continue to be very effective when it appears dirty. When synthetic oils first came out, some people suggested removing the oil from the car, filtering it through cloth, and then putting it back in again.

acdii

The only disagreement with [acdii] I have is determining the current effectiveness of the oil with how it looks

It was more than looks, it was the feel of the oil. I used to be a mechanic, and have quite a few rebuilds under my belt. The oil in the Flex had lost its slipperiness to me. After 7000 miles, it wasn't overly dirty, but didn't feel as slick as it should for the amount of miles on it, which tells me the turbos broke it down faster than expected. This is why I decided to go a shorter interval on the EB V6, where the 7500 interval on the Fusion works just fine.

When oil is cold, in the 70-80 degree range, it has a certain feel to it that over the years of working with it, you get to know, and can get a good idea of whether the oil should be changed or not, regardless of the packages it has in it. Once oil reaches a certain point, if it is no longer slick, it should be replaced. Good oil should give you a few rubs between your fingers before you can feel your prints, if you can feel your prints within 1 rub, its time to change it. Try it with new oil, and oil with 7500 miles on it, you will feel the difference. It takes a sensitive touch though, one that I have built up with the woodworking I do, I can feel little changes in the grain of wood to know if it needs more sanding or is ready for the finish.

With the tight tolerances in today's engines, they use very light oils, and that oil needs to be slick, or friction will take over and kill the engine in no time flat. Back when engines were dirty clunkers, and needed thick oils, the oil didn't break down as quick for lubrication, but the engines were so dirty with large amounts of blow-by, that the oil needed to be changed out more often due to the absorption of all that carbon, and the build up of carbon deposits is what killed most engines.

However, the only real way to know for sure that oil needs to be replaced is with an oil analysis. I don't expect someone who never worked on engines as a career to be able to put a few drops of oil on their fingers and know if the oil should be replaced.

raman13

i live in boston area and my 2010 ford fusion hybrid has been parked in the garage for 3 months since mid dec without use. when i tried to start now , it gives all kinds of msgs like 'oil too low' , 'not enough fuel' , 'please stop as soon as possible' etc. we know the gas tank is full and there is enough oil and i am wondering what i should do. would not using a new car for 2.5 months make it not start ? the car has 14000 miles on it. any help is appreciated..thanks

texases

I seem to remember something in the manual about long term storage and dead batteries. You'll want to check that, I'll take a look too.