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Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

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Comments

  • doidoadieseldoidoadiesel Member Posts: 59
    What countries are we talking about here? Are you sure you haven't confused Communism with Socialism? Britain, Canada, France, and most of the European nations have socialist economies and democratic governments. They may fail - as we may fail, but not yet - although no government lasts forever. Our 200+ years is a drop in the bucket compared to the longevity of other empires that have fallen.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I believe one of the qualifications was that one should buy an AMERICAN-made AMERICAN brand car. I believe they should also throw-out the silly fuel economy requirement, (which was just a bone tossed to the eco-weenies anyway) and let you buy whatever car you wanted as long as it met the requirements spelled out in my first sentence. Heck, I'd have bought a new Buick and traded in the Grand Marquis I'm not so crazy about. I have a heck of a time with the screwy HVAC controls as they're all different from the intuitive controls of a GM car. The Mercury's controls are all over the place.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Bingo!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Here's the crazy thing. I'm sure the car made 18 MPG when it was new, but doesn't the fuel economy fall when the car gets older? I'm sure that 1990 Town Car made less than 18 MPG at 19 years old and whatever miles were on it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Shoot, I'd sooner drive a 1960 Chrysler New Yorker before any Honda! Go for it! It would make a nice companion for your 1957 DeSoto!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, that's $300 a month with a MASSIVE down payment if you want anything decent and don't want to finance it forever. It really hurts to write a huge downpayment check when you think what you can do with all that money instead.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Have you ever driven a 1960 Chrysler? I have.

    The had the worst handling, sloppiest suspension and terrible brakes!

    As a fun, hobby car, I would love one. As a daily driver on a crowded freeway, I don't think so!
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    In your statement you say "we are all broke". I tend to disagree with that. We are not "ALL BROKE"!! Many are, but not all!!! There are still a lot of working Americans that are not "BROKE"!!! Many Americans DO NOT OVERSPEND!! :mad:
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The average savings rate was negative for a good while so while many Americans did not overspend their savings were more them outmatched by the spending of everyone else.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They are fine for street cruising, unsafe on the freeways. They need to be limited to car shows and parades.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Most big D3 boats from that era were the same way. I can remember driving my dad's '62 Impala for a while. What a (forgetful) experience.

    As one of the car mag writer said years ago - D3 made vehicles for the roads and environment around Detroit and the rest of the mid west. Flat and straight roads (hence the handling, or lack thereof), and hot/humid summers (hence the AC).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not quite. Wages were stagnant or fell for the bottom 70% of wage earners from about 1979 to the mid 90s, and wages rose modestly for the 90th percentile and up, about 1%. After that, the very upper percentile of wage earners did better, but still, by the year 2000, the median wage was below that of 1979.

    Of course, that didn't stop the top percentile of wage earners from borrowing heavily anyway.

    C4C is really nothing more than a subsidy for loss of spending power IMO.

    As for the term "broke", if a country spends more than it produces, it's broke. If you make $60K a year and spend 65K, then how are you defined economically?

    It's all a pattern of BOOM/BUST since the Civil War.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Have you ever driven a 1960 Chrysler? I have.

    Would it be any worse than my '57 DeSoto? It's about the same size...126" wb, around 219" long overall. I think it's about 500 lb heavier though. I'm sure the 413-4bbl would have a lot more kick to it than the 341 Hemi-2bbl in my DeSoto...but the brakes are the same, so it might be harder to stop. I wonder what kind of fuel economy that 413 would get? The 341 Hemi was actually pretty economical for what it is, but I'm sure the 413 would guzzle a lot more.

    The had the worst handling, sloppiest suspension and terrible brakes!

    My biggest beef with the DeSoto's brakes is that they're overly complicated, with dual wheel cylinders up front, and having to use that special wheel puller to get to the back brakes. The drums are 12", and actually do a great job of stopping the car...when they're adjusted properly! And that's just the problem...they get out of adjustment really easily. The single master cylinder might sound pretty scary, but thanks to the handbrake, and pushbutton transmission, it's one of the more bearable cars to drive "brakeless" that I've discovered. :surprise:

    But yeah, I wouldn't want to drive a 1960 New Yorker, or my '57 DeSoto, on a daily basis if that involved long commutes, crowded freeways, cramped parking spaces, etc. I could probably get away with it with my short commute, but I really wouldn't want to take something like that into DC or Baltimore, or if I had to suddenly take a long road trip.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, but I'd rather be seen driving a 1960 Chrysler or 1957 DeSoto than any Japanoid econobox.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Don't rob a bank in one, though. You need to blend into traffic.
  • morainemoraine Member Posts: 4
    I presently own a 2006 FWD Saturn Vue (33,000 miles) with the Honda V-6 engine and transmission in it. I also own an old beat 98 Dakota pickup which qualifies for the "Cash for Clunkers" program. I do not want a new pickup, but am concerned that my Saturn will rapidly depreciate from its' present value with GM dumping them and parts will become an issue. My question is do people think that my concerns are probably going to become a reality and if so should I look at bundling my Dakota (worth $4500 with the "CARS" program) with my Vue then go for another small people-cargo carrier. I've looked at the new 2010 Subaru Outback and liked what I saw, but still want to maximize my best bang for the buck coupled with reliable and affordable transportation. I most likely will in the end replace my truck with a quality small used pickup, but if I do that only, I will get next to nothing for the Dakota and loose out on the Cash for Clunkers. If holding onto the Vue is going to lead to a very rapid devaluation from where it books out at now coupled with parts issues in the future coupled with passing on the Cash for Clunkers opportunity are my two concerns. All thoughts, information and suggestions on are this is appreciated.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Thsoe were called Center Plane brakes and when everything is working right and they are properly adjusted they work pretty well.

    Finding someone with the skills to work on them may be difficult as most of the old timers are long gone.

    If the ball joints, tie rod ends and control arm bushings are in good shape they were passible but I wouldn't want to use one of these on a crowded highway.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I think we have taken in 65 of these. 19 over the weekend.

    Our wholesalers aren't happy. Some very nice and very usable cars are going to be distroyed.

    A lot of well maintained, sweet running engines are about to be distroyed and a lot of good looking cars, trucks and SUV's are about to be crushed.
  • tucsondontucsondon Member Posts: 4
    Just out of curiosity... did the C4C sales boost your overall sales volume, or were the C4C transactions in place of the usual sales?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    A lot of well maintained, sweet running engines are about to be distroyed and a lot of good looking cars, trucks and SUV's are about to be crushed.

    Just out of curiosity, anything that I'd shed a tear over? Are these cars going to just get crushed immediately, or are they going to at least have a chance to have salvageable parts like sheetmetal, trim, interior stuff, etc salvaged?
  • philliplcphilliplc Member Posts: 136
    only the engine has to be destroyed. otherwise desireable parts can be parted out.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Sheesh! I'm glad I didn't C4C my 1988 Buick Park Avenue! Seeing somebody pour that silicate solution into that fine 3.8 V-6 would be like watch the vet euthanize my favorite pet!
  • thearchiesthearchies Member Posts: 8
    The immediate effect of this program is to reward those, who either made a poor choice, or because of family size, location, whatever, purchased a vehicle that simply used more gas to go from point A to B that was really necessary.

    Unfortunately, I've always considered mileage when purchasing a car, therefore, my next vehicle, which I'll be purchasing within a week, doesn't qualify for a dime of the C4C.

    What peevs me is that they could have easily included a much larger group of new car buyers for this "entitlement" (entitlement, because that's what it is to anyone driving a large 18 miles or less to the gallon vehicle - to me, it's just one more way to get my money and give it to someone who really didn't give a d*mn for anything or anyone but themselves).

    The C4C program should have been a graduated rebate program, based on increasing the percentage of miles your old vs new vehicle would get. For example: an increase of 100% (going from a vehicle getting 18mpg to 36) would net you $4500, an increase of 50% (going from a vehicle getting 20mpg to 40) would net you $2250, and so on. My current vehicle is rated at 24mpg. My new vehicle will get 27mpg - an increase of 10+% - I'd love to get a $450.00 rebate, but no, I'll get nothing, yet I'll be paying for someone else's rebate.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    What is your current 24mpg vehicle?
    Is it really worth less than $450? I seriously doubt it. I think you may have misinterpreted the program.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • philliplcphilliplc Member Posts: 136
    i think destroying vehicles that get on average 24 MPG would go against the spirit of the program : )
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    What are you buying that gets 27 mpg combined? Just checking your past posts says you are looking at a RAV4 and even the must efficient RAV4, 4 cylinder FWD, only gets 24 mpg combined.

    The six cylinder FWD model gets 22 combined and the ratings just go down from there. I think maybe you are confusing the 18 mpg for highway rating. The 18 mpg is the combined rating and after the dumbing down of the EPA test in 2008 even cars that got 21 or 22 combined could have been knocked down to 18.
  • thearchiesthearchies Member Posts: 8
    It's a 96 Camry with high mileage. The KBB shows $850 for trade - I doubt the dealer would even give me close to that. While it's been serviced regularly, it's also been rear-ended 3 times (I hate cell phones). I could sell it myself, but it has a number of other problems, some I think the accidents helped facilitate - the rear seal needs to be replaced, it needs a new steering 'rack', and the power steering pump needs replacing, and some other things I can't rememver - which equates to well over 2K in repairs. I'll wind up selling it for $100.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    to me, it's just one more way to get my money and give it to someone who really didn't give a d*mn for anything or anyone but themselves

    You, sir, are guilty of slander. In my case, and the case of many others who have posted here, the vehicles that will be "clunked" are vehicles that we purchased when we did, in fact, need them. I bought a Dodge Ram pickup because I needed a truck--I was remodeling my house. Have your automotive needs remained constant throughout your adult life? Mine haven't, nor have those of most people I know.

    The house is done now, and I can trade the truck for something that fits my current needs. In this case, either a Honda Fit or a Kia Soul.

    If you think that means I "don't give a d*mn for anything or anything but [myself]," then you and I should have a talk, because I'd love to tell you about the 60-80 hours a week I spend (on and off the job) working to improve my community--and the students who say I've changed their lives.

    But you're obviously more interested in ranting because you don't get a rebate.
  • thearchiesthearchies Member Posts: 8
    Good point, and you're right. I'm also looking at the Nissan Rogue (24) and another Camry (25). And it's a 97 camry that I have not, not a 96. thanks for your input, I'll have to look a little closer.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Depending on what engine is in your Camry it is rated at 23, 21 or 19 mpg combined with the new ratings.

    The V6 Camry gets 19 combined with 24 highway. I got a feeling that is the car you own correct? That car was rated at 22 combined using the old EPA test.
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    My reply to you "if you make $60,000.00 a year and spend $65k" is:
    There are a lot ot us that DO NOT SPEND MORE than WE MAKE!!! Yes, tthere are many people that DO SPEND more than they make...BUT NOT EVERYONE> Some of us still have a lot of common sense and know how to budget our money!!!! Please do not put the whole country in that category!!!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    No Andre, all of these cars are too new for your tastes and none have really been "special" and any way. The sharp looking 1999 Disco was the one that got to me. It looks and runs great but it won't for long!
  • thearchiesthearchies Member Posts: 8
    Please accept my apologies for any perceived offenses. I did not mean to single out any one individual or lump everyone who qualifies for a rebate into a negative category. I obviously did not clearly state my frustration with another give away program.

    And yes, quite frankly I am irritate that I don't qualify for a rebate (at least that what the websites tell me when I enter my data). I hope you enjoy what mine and your tax dollars have provided.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Why be "irritate"?

    You simply didn't meet the requirements.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I wonder if that Disco was a series one or a series II.

    They made both in 1999 but all the Series I cars were SDs so no leather or sunroofs, Discos have two remember, unless someone special ordered them with roofs.

    Either way the engine in that vehicle is the least valuable part. There are tons of those engines out there and I guarantee no matter how well that car runs now it will have an expensive problem or start leaking oil badly soon.

    According to the fueleconomy.gov website the cost to run that car on premium, at $2.66 a gallon, is 3,000 dollars a year. Add in that almost anything that goes wrong on that car is a 1,000 dollar repair and I think they did the right thing.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh, there is a big increase in sales because of this.

    All of a sudden a person cen get 4500.00 for a POS clunker that is on it's last legs?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    It's a Series 2 and it, seriously looks like new inside and out. The leather looked perfect and I think it only has around 80,000 miles.

    Yeah, I never could figure out why they used that little aluminum Buick V-8 in them but they did for years!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Will the dealer sell you your clunker back after they destroy the engine? Is there anything to stop them from doing that? My 99 Ranger engine and trans are worn out. The rest of the truck is in great condition. I could put a new engine and trans in and have a good truck for the price of a new engine/trans.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ehh well I guess that is too bad but those Discos are worth basically nothing. Ton of scrap metal there and those aluminum body panels will fetch a good junk of change as either replacement parts or scrap. If the spare tire and wheel are good I would sell that on Ebay. You could get enough money selling some of the higher dollar parts off that to throw your guys a nice barbecue.
  • beam19beam19 Member Posts: 6
    How is everyone dealing with the continuous proof of registration? Do you still have you old reg cards or are you physically going to the DMV to get copies?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    FORD RANGER: You could buy a used cherry 1999 Ranger for much less than the cost of a replacement engine and transmission. Not worth the trouble IMO.

    RE: CLUNKERS TRADED IN: These clunkers being traded in couldn't be all *that* good, given that the owners voluntarily brought them in with full knowledge that $3500 bucks was way more than the market was going to give them. Who knows a car better than the owner? Not we casual observers, who haven't lived with these trade-ins, seems to me.

    True some bottom-feeder wholesalers working used car lots with in-house financing might be distressed, but they're only distressed because they were outbid by the gov'mint. THEY know these vehicles aren't worth $3500. They probably aren't worth 1/3 of that, most of 'em.

    RE: WE'RE BROKE -- here's a chart showing ability of Americans to save vs. other major industrialized countries----dead last and still dropping:

    The American Debtor
  • seldenselden Member Posts: 22
    This seems to be a recurring theme: "My car doesn't qualify under CARS regulations, so it's a bad program." You don't hear many complaints from people whose car does qualify, and who happened to be in the market for a car this summer.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    FORD RANGER: You could buy a used cherry 1999 Ranger for much less than the cost of a replacement engine and transmission. Not worth the trouble IMO.

    You are probably right. Though I would still be getting a gutless wonder with another used one. I was planning to put a 302 Ford V8 or a Cummins 4BT diesel. Either one will cost about $6k installed. Then I can make it up my road with my utility trailer loaded with topsoil.

    I am surprised that the Japanese are following our course into bankruptcy. Though their national debt is way higher than ours as a percentage of GDP.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nah, the Japanese are *still* suffering for reckless credit abuse, many years after the fact. Their banking practices even made Wall St. cringe, if you can believe that.

    Not sure what's going on with Canada--I suppose because they are so tightly bound to us economically.

    I don't expect that C4C will help this graph any, but really it's a drop in the ol' bucket.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I still have my old registration cards, but had to go to the DMV to get a copy of the current one, because I lost it. LOL

    NHTSA rule says that proof of continuous registration is satisfied by the combination of (1) a title issued in your name more than a year ago, plus (2) a current registration card. So the point of the "continuous registration" requirement as they interpret it is to establish that you haven't just bought the car in order to take advantage of the program.

    They don't seem worried about folks who let the tag lapse for a day or two. I guess they figure that if the insurance coverage has been continuous, then the car hasn't been off the road for any length of time.
  • havasucowboyhavasucowboy Member Posts: 1
    WHAT A JOKE !! Part of this plan was GREEN, as these 'clunkers' were going to be off the road. The government should have required the 'clunkers' to be smashed so the dealers do not just re-sell them and put them right back on the street causing green-house gases. You will see car dealers selling the same car over and over for $2000, so they can get customers a $4500 discount. This is going to be a mess for sure. Nothing good for green ...nothing to get junkers off the road ... just an open book for fruad. FORD's new ads use the words "RECYCLE your clunker.' Do you believe this?

    Don
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    The government should have required the 'clunkers' to be smashed so the dealers do not just re-sell them and put them right back on the street causing green-house gases.

    That's exactly what IS required. Check the official website to learn the facts about the program--then see if your opinion remains the same.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I agree he was kind of off base there. I still would like to know how much can be salvaged of the clunker? I know the dealer has to destroy the engine. Is that the only requirement the dealer has to meet? What happens to the rest of the vehicle when the salvage company gets it? If they destroyed the engine in my 99 Ranger and got the truck they would have a rust free, dent free perfectly nice 99 Ranger. What would keep them from pulling the engine and trans from a totaled Ranger and selling the truck? They could use the VIN from the totaled truck.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I would assume the VIN from the "clunked" vehicle gets marked in a computer database as belonging to a C4C vehicle, thus preventing it from being legally registered again. The salvage operator agrees to crush or shred the vehicle within six months. So I guess the answer depends on how many parts will sell within that period of time. I suppose, in theory, the salvage operator might use a lot of the parts from the clunker to rebuild a crashed vehicle--like, say, the frame, all the body panels, etc. But wouldn't it be simpler, and probably cheaper, to just buy a decent used Ranger in the first place?

    My truck has a good seat, good side and rear windows, and good power window and seat motors. Beyond that, I suppose someone might want a door or fender off of it, or maybe a headlight or taillight, but that's probably about all.
  • 100chuck100chuck Member Posts: 149
    http://www.freep.com/article/20090727/BUSINESS01/90727084/

    The problem was first reported by users at Edmunds.com and other Internet sites who reported the fuel economy figures on their clunkers changing without warning, knocking them out of the program.
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