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Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My 99 Ranger is the XLT 2WD with V6 FFV automatic. It runs fine, just way under powered. According to Edmund's today it has a dealer resell of $4737. Private sale $3527. I have no doubt I can get $3500 to $4000 on Craigslist. Maybe more if they crush a lot of good small PU trucks. I suppose a dealer could give me the $4500 and then sell it and make a few bucks. Not sure that would be against the rules. I only wish there was something I wanted that would qualify. They have pretty much eliminated me buying a new truck with the way the program is designed. The PU trucks have not improved mileage wise enough to qualify unless you find a glitch in the system like the guy with the 92 Silverado.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You really need to read and understand the rules of the program.

    Instead, you just made yourself look foolish.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    They aren't going to do that. Do you have any idea how many places your truck has a vin number? There are hidfden vin numbers that few people know about.

    It wouldn't be worth the risk.

    As far as parts, they may pull the doors, tailgate, maybe the hood and the glass.

    It they look under hood and see a recently replaced radiator or alternator they will probably grab those items. That sort of thing.

    I think it will be an absolute windfall for these guys!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't know about other parts of the country. Here many old used vehicles end up headed to Mexico, both legit and stolen. It could be a ready market for these rigs sold to salvage yards.

    Just noticed another anomaly. Remember the 92 Chevy that gets $4500 on a new 4X4 that gets 3 MPG less than the old PU. Well a 92 Ford F150 only gets $3500 if the new PU gets 1 MPG more. If they both get the same mileage the F150 owner gets $4500.

    You got to love this program.
  • philliplcphilliplc Member Posts: 136
    wow - 16000 dealers, $4000 avg credit, 950 mil available = avg only 15 clunkers per dealer before the money runs out
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Obvious Troll is Obvious.
  • wbmdwbmd Member Posts: 4
    I am a frequent reader of Edmunds forums, but rarely have ever posted.

    I think that there is plenty of information on the web about the C4C program, and I think that it is pretty clear that the intent is to scrap the vehicles turned in and not resell them. I also think that this is a reasonable, measured program that will stimulate a few car sale when the industry really needs it.

    I investigated it this weekend. I have a 98 Toyota 4 Runner that would qualify, but the $3500 or $4500 that I would get, would only be $500 to $1500 than what I could get on a trade in anyway, and not really worth it. Particularly when I read what would happen to the engine on my truck. I just cannot do that to my 4 Runner. It felt cruel.

    A lot of people seem to rant and moan, either that the program should not exist at all, or alternately complain that it is not generous enough that everyone can get a new car. I'm sure the program is not perfect, but if it generates a few extra car sales this year, it will keep the industry going until (hopefully) a more sustained recovery next year. If they gave everyone $8000 to just go out and buy a new car, I'm sure it would steal car sales from next year.

    Am I going to rant that I do not benefit from this program? No, I am just going to keep on driving my faithful 11 year old SUV, with the crayons melted into the seats, and the power antenna that doesn't go up anymore and be thankful for what I have. 'Cause it could be a lot worse.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You have a good perspective on the whole situation. I have come to the same conclusion with my 99 gas guzzling Ford Ranger. Your comment about stealing sales from next year, brings a thought to mind. I would say from the excitement created this program will have gone through the $950 million by the end of the week. That means it will probably kill sales in August. People will be waiting to see if Congress tosses out more money when they get back from vacation in September.

    There could be some screaming from dealers that took the plunge and the money may be all gone before their vouchers get processed.
  • wbmdwbmd Member Posts: 4
    The car dealers on this forum would be in a better position to comment about the volume of cars being turned in under the C4C program and whether the funding will be exhausted by the end of the month.

    I would imagine that it would increase the volume of people visiting dealerships, but a lot of people may have a clunker but just cannot buy a new car at this point. Others will do the math and realize that they are only going to get a modest premium over their trade in value and not bother.

    But it is not my field. I only reluctantly venture into a dealership every 5-6 years...then don't return until I absolutely have to...
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    NHTSA claims that they will provide dealers with regular updates on how much money is left. I'm guessing that once they see how quickly the money gets used up, they'll arbitrarily set a particular date as the day the money "officially" runs out. Then they'll pay every dealer claim up through that date, and they'll either go over or under budget. That's the only way they can be fair to the dealers, who lobbied hard for this bill through the NADA.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    they had a big piece on C4C, which is apparently generating BIG-TIME interest at dealerships and LOTS of sales. One guy they interviewed had already taken in 20 clunker trades in 2 days, all successful C4C sales, so that's 20 new vehicles he sold in 48 hours. Whoa. He said he had taken in more Explorers than any other time in the history of his dealership.

    Another dealer was echoing what some here have hinted: that all the money currently authorized for the program could be gone in 10-14 days. I imagine dealers will still be glad of the temporary bump in sales.

    At every dealer they interviewed, they filmed the lot where C4C trade-ins were being stored, and they were all almost without exception American-brand SUVs. All the dealers interviewed, except one Chrysler dealer, were selling Japanese brands.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • papasam1papasam1 Member Posts: 84
    This deal is for the dealers and owners not you the people, Its just another pig in a poke like the housing thing just a little while ago. Oh how easily we forget. Alot of people have lost there homes and some of you are going to loose your new car and your old one too. It looks like you can lead them to water and make them drink.
  • joegiantjoegiant Member Posts: 90
    I thought it interesting that after agreeing to purchase a car under the Clunkers program over the weekend, the GM at our particular dealership came out and gave us a "survey" to fill out...if we wanted to. :) I thought, "What the heck." and filled it out.

    Questions like (my paraphrase), "Were it not for the CARS program incentive you are receiving with this transaction, would you have purchased a new car today?" Or "In the last year, how many miles would you say you drove your CARS trade-in vehicle?". It was a rather interesting set of questions that actually made me feel like Big Brother was collecting data for a future legislative bill. Thoughts anyone?

    Joe
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    If they gave everyone $8000 to just go out and buy a new car, I'm sure it would steal car sales from next year.
    C4C would steal car sales anyway. Smart people going to wait 2-3 years and buy used cars.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I was under the impression that this was a site for discussing cars.I guess Republicans just cant help themselves.Attack this hated administration whether subtly or not at any time and any place. :mad:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, even a Toyota ad showed what appeared to be a first-generation Ford Bronco II being squashed.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    They are going to be in for a rude awakening. New car sales have been off for so long and leasing has been so utterly devastated that used car prices are going UP. The supply of some used cars is dwindling and in a couple of years the supply will be much, much tighter.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I saw a C4C ad for Toyota this morning where they crushed a mid-80s Land Cruiser.

    Saw another news piece this morning on Piercey Toyota in San Jose, which has already done 37 C4C sales since Friday! I had my doubts this program would do much what with all its conditions and whatnot, but it appears to be a raging success.

    And so many of the trade-ins are Ford Explorers, maybe it will lift the resale values for Explorer owners who hang on to their trucks! :-P

    I am amused that they are giving C4C buyers that little questionnaire - I guess they want some evidence the bill had its intended effect.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Your graduated proposal is solid and valid. It might form the basis for a Gen2 stimulus program.

    However this program was written by the auto industry for its own purposes. It will reach its intended goal ... as planned. In that regard it can only be considered a perfect success.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You misunderstand the use of 'your' tax dollars. 'Your' personal tax dollars are used to improve infrastructure projects in 'your' state.

    Now you can rest easy that 'your' tax dollars are not supporting another person's auto purchases. You can stop ranting at any time now.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You, the dealer or the junkyard can salvage whatever you possibly can as long as the vehicle remains in running condition when it's turned in.

    You ( buyers ) should salvage as much as possible before dropping it off.
    The dealers can do the same if they so choose. Most won't because that would simply clutter up pretty sales spaces with loose junk.
    The junkyards will benefit the most IMO. But they do have to crush the engine and they do have to do the labor to disassemble the vehicle, but so what.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It appears that the program is working as planned. Sales of D3 SUVs and trucks in the mid 90s when gas was under $1.00 per gallon was a HUGE HUGE number. There were tens of millions of these vehicles sold during that period. Most now are worth less then $600 in trade.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes this is the survey that the buyers have to complete ( 3 questions ). It's a means to test the efficacy of the program. IOW to provide a justification for its existence. IMO this is a smart 'flank-covering' maneuvre. It will put to rest much of the negativism and it will also serve as a means for extending the program quarter by quarter after the inititial funding runs out.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Agreed. On certain in-demand vehicles like Corollas and Civics it's almost impossible to find any at auction and those that are put 'thru the line' are bid up to stupid numbers so that the resale price on a 2 y.o. used Corolla is about $2000 less than a new one....and little or no profit.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Piercey is a HUGE dealer. I can't imagine how many cars they have to sell just to keep the lights on over there.

    I'm not sure how clapped out old cars suddenly are achieving sainthood in some people's eyes. Are they like those greasy meatballs they serve in business banquets? Nobody wants to even touch one until someone else grabs for them?

    If used car prices go up, it's logical, because the bad ones would have been culled already, so only the ones REALLY worth $4500 will be left. Maybe we'll even get relief from having to pour through all that Craigslist junk.

    One could argue that some people need access to $1500 used cars, but in the end I think they end up spending $4500 just to keep them running anyhow--but it's spread out over time. They don't have to come up with all the repair costs all at once, as they would with a $4500 "better" car.

    I'd like to see some kind of "micro-loan" program for hard working people who need to buy a good used car. :) (Private finance, not government--just you and me chipping in $5 apiece).
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    A lot of these cars aren't "clapped out".

    Yesterday, I drove a decent 1994 Lexus to our Clunker Lot. It had 140,000 miles buit the engine had been replaced at some point (sludge). The A/C was working nicely in our 97 degree heat. The car ran great!

    It needed a good clean up but It would have served someone well for years.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If the news reports are accurate, most of the C4C deals are being done for Imports. Maybe the next one should take that into consideration and use numbers sold to determine the C4C price. Like the Hybrids, when 60,000 were sold the Tax Credit was reduced. They could cut off the brands as they reach a certain sales level. That way the Domestics like Obama Motors will get a shot at the stimulus money.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Maybe, sure--- but not worth the $4500 on the open market, and besides, all that's speculative---those early Lexus can suck up huge amounts of $$$ for repairs, especially at 140K. Statistically the car's pretty worn out at 175K anyway.

    I don't consider a car having gone 140,000 useful miles as having been wasted, do you, I mean really?. One doesn't have to drive a car right into the dirt to claim that they got their money's worth, and that the car "did its job".

    Besides--- Those salvage parts will keep other better cars up and running.

    Too bad about the engine, though, if in fact the owner's claim were true.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    You know, Shifty, you and I kinda share a lot of the same history and experience. Maybe it's our age or something. We both remember when driving 100,000 without a major overhaul including a rebore was unheard of. We remember Sioux valve grinding machines and 40,000 mile valve jobs. We remember ridge reamers, don't we?

    In the past, I would have agreed with you when you say a car's life is about over around 175,000 miles.

    It just seems that I have seen so many cars in the past few years that are running well WITHOUT having had major work done with 200,000 miles and more.

    I have seen several Hondas with over 300K that have had only scheduled services done. these cars can look and run fine. This would have been unheard of not that many years ago.

    I know a guy wha has a Chevy pickup that has (last time I asked) 477,000 miles on it. It has never had a valve cover off! Two transmission rebuilds and ready for it's third.

    In the case of that Lexus, I just think it had a lot of life left but who knows?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Possibly all true (we'd have to examine the cars' records to see if the owner's claims of high mileage are indeed true, or what expense it took to make it to that high mileage).....but *statistically*, the modern car is just about dead at 175K-225K, in the same way that people are generally dead around age 80---even though you will see an 85 year old playing tennis now and then.

    Also "high mileage" is no indication that the car is in any way safe or reliable...it's just "alive".

    One could keep a Yugo running for 1,000,000 miles after all.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I dunno. A car with 140K miles on it is like a 90 year-old athlete. He can live another 10 years or drop dead of a heart attack the next time he goes jogging. Must've been an ES300 as it had the same sludge-prone V-6 as the contemporary Camry. I never heard of a sludge problem with the 4.0 V-8 in the LS400.

    One thing that will kill all cars is metal fatigue. I knew a guy who had a 700K-mile 1970 Chevrolet Impala that was finished when the frame snapped from metal fatigue.
  • erniesdaderniesdad Member Posts: 37
    That's the case with my car, a '95 crown vic. Externally it has a ding that can be fixed with some touchup paint. It doesn't have any issues with the engine, ac, tranny, steering, brakes etc, and one switch is out. None of these issues affect its ability as reliable transportation a bit, and the car could probably do another 50K+ on that drivetrain, easy. The engine would be a perfectly fine donor motor, and at 135k of civilian use, the motor is really just getting broken in. :) When I was test driving a RAV4 v6, the salesman mentioned C4C, and, I politely told him where to stick C4C I wasn't interested. The "intentionally grenade the motor" directive was the last straw as far as I was concerned. No way will I take part.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I have a friend who used to have a 1995 Grand Marquis GS. He bought it used with about 55,000 miles on it, and took it to around 175,000 miles, when he traded it at CarMax for a slightly used 10,000 mile '04 Crown Vic LX. He got a whopping $600 for it. Now the car wasn't without its faults, but was still on the original engine and transmission. The check engine light was on, and it was blowing a little smoke, and didn't sound so hot under hard acceleration anymore. The paint was still shiny for the most part, but starting to fade in places, and that open seam where the top of the C-pillar and the roof meet was starting to rust.

    I think he has the Crown Vic up to around 150,000 miles now, and it's still running well...although he did have the intake manifold or something like that fail earlier this year.

    Those old Panther bodies may be getting long in the tooth, but they're a good, sturdy car. Maybe not "reliable" in a Honda/Toyota-esque sort of way, but they have a sort of rugged durability that few cars today can match.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, that makes me feel a little better about my 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis LS, but I'd really rather have a Buick! :(
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    how do you "KNOW" when your AC is low on Freon. And didn't your Intrepid come with R-134a refrigerant like my Neon did?

    I
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    IT WAS THE AUTO INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE THAT WROTE THIS BILL!!!! '

    And how is that supposed to make anyone feel better about this bill???

    The Detroit Auto Industry hasn't done a single smart thing in decades, except for maybe asking the government to bail them out, which was preposterous, but somehow they got it to happen.

    This bill doesn't change the fact that everything Detroit decides to do is a bad idea. The streak is alive and well.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    how do you "KNOW" when your AC is low on Freon. And didn't your Intrepid come with R-134a refrigerant like my Neon did?

    Because it had a slow leak in it, dating back to 2007. It slowly started getting weaker and weaker that summer, and by, say, late August, was pretty much just moving hot air around. In the fall, I had my mechanic look at it. He couldn't find a leak, so he just charged it back up, and it was fine, lasting that winter, and a good portion of the summer of 2008. However, towards the end of the summer, and into fall, it started getting weak again. I hoped I could hold off until the following spring, but then the compressor seized up in February 2009. It had been giving me warning signs for some time though, which I chose to ignore. It's not like it blew ice cold one day, and then blew up the next!

    And yeah, it uses R134, and not the old R12. And just in case it still has a slow leak somewhere, I make sure to use the a/c regularly, so I can keep track of whether or not it seems to be losing its ability to cool. And if it seems to start getting weaker, it's going back to the mechanic right away! I'd rather not repeat my $1300 mistake. :sick:
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I have a theory that may explain why some cars go extreme miles and others don't.

    A lot of people really cut back on maintence as their cars age. They figure the car isn't going to last much longer and they treat it accordingly. Theys tart skimping on oil changes, don't change the fluids and spend as little as possible figuring it isn't worth it. They figure they won't keep it much longer so why maintain it?

    The guy I know with the 477,000 mile Chevy truck used to own a machine shop and he has seen a lot of gunked up engines. He maintains that truck like he did when it was new.

    " Come to kindly terms with thy [non-permissible content removed] for it bears you"
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Is it my imagination or did the old R-12 cool better than the R-134?

    My 1965 Buick Riviera would throw snowballs at you. The newer cars don't do this.

    And to think, we used to cool down choke housings with R-12!

    Shame on us but we didn't know!
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,928
    The money that the government has was their money in the beginning. Now businesses want some of their tax money back as stimulation during the economic mess.

    What about personal income tax? Sales tax? Property tax? Business don't pay for everything, the goverment makes money off of people too.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I think another reason is simply because some people drive alot. I mean, my Mom & stepdad got 160,000 miles out of a 1984 Tempo, which wasn't exactly the poster child for "Quality is Job One". How did they do it? A 130 mile round trip commute, mostly highway, that's how they did it! Their '86 Monte Carlo had 179,000 miles on it when they gave it to me, and I put another 13,000 on it (in 3 months!) before it got t-boned, and it was still running strong then. And they currently have a '99 Altima, which I've mentioned here before, but for the life of me can't remember how many miles are on it right now. I want to say 250,000? Maybe more? Now it crapped its tranny at 35K, under warranty, but that's probably a defect, and something that was just destined to go. Tranny #2 has more than paid for itself.

    Some things on a car will break due to miles, and others due to age, and of course, maintenance plays a big role here. But, in the case of my Mom & stepdad, that 130 miles involves starting the car twice...once in the morning, once in the evening. After it warms up, where cars get the biggest wear, each additional mile is a cake walk. And since it's mostly highway, they're not hitting the brakes that often, varying engine speed too much, not having to stomp on it to merge onto the highway, etc.

    Now, contrast that to when I used to deliver pizzas, and on a busy night, could rack up 200 miles on the car. That's 200 miles of stop-and-go driving, where I probably turned the car on and off 20-30 times (I'd often leave it running while at the customer's house, otherwise we'd be talking more like 50-60 times). Not to mention hopping in and out of the car 50-60 times, slamming the door, constant acceleration/deceleration, getting back to the store and shutting the car off, only to turn it back on again in 5 minutes.

    All miles are not created equal, and needless to say, a mile under my watch was much more brutal than a mile under my Mom & stepdad's!

    And while those pizza delivery days are behind me, nowadays my commute to work is a whopping 3.5 miles. In the winter, that's not even enough time for the car to warm up! I actually take a back road to work that stretched it to something like 4.8 miles, and sometimes, when the weather's nice, and I'm driving one of my old cars that hasn't been run in awhile, I'll take a longer route that puts me at 7-10 miles...depending on how badly I want to get to work that day. :P
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The OP was complaining about 'Obama' as if it was the creation of this administration. It was not. It was the creation of the capitalists in Detroit and Torrance and 10,000+ local small businesses called dealers that gave it to the politico's to sign off on.

    It doesn't matter all that much if you or others feel good or bad about it. It serves the purposes of those that wrote it. That's the way our government is run.

    Don't blame Detroit all that much. They and their in-house politico's were the ones to front the bill simply because they have the power to do so. It was also Torrance and all the local small businesses called dealerships which will benefit even more by the program.

    On top of that the ones that really hold the power, the Pentagon and the Intelligence agencies of the Executive Branch, got their way most of all. Rant all you want. You're screaming for the wind to stop.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I hear there are rumblings in the House of Reps to forbid the D3 from closing all the dealerships they want to close.

    bill, H.R 2743, the Automobile Dealer Economic Rights Restoration Act of 2009,

    I think someone in the House is unclear on the concept.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The Federal Government which is funding this program by allowing us to borrow on our future tax receipts today doesn't collect sales or property taxes, states and localities do. That's an entirely different issue.

    Don't worry the money to fund this program is not coming from your tax payments to the IRS. Your money comes back to you in the form of national defense. My money come back to me in the attempt to put a man on Mars. GM's and Ford's and Nissan's and Honda's and Toyota's future tax payments are coming back to them in the form of increased business this year when they really need it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I see this as posturing for the 'folks back home'. We tried, we really did our best to save these dealerships. We even passed a bill, but there was nothing that could be done in the end. It was decided in the bankruptcy courts.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Could be. I wonder if NHTSA will release the final stats on what percentage of the C4C dollars were spent on import brands (even if assembled in USA). My hunch is that the number will be overwhelming--80% or more--but I haven't heard much from the folks who are using the program to buy a new truck. That's the big variable.
  • erniesdaderniesdad Member Posts: 37
    The OP was complaining about 'Obama' as if it was the creation of this administration. It was not. It was the creation of the capitalists in Detroit and Torrance and 10,000+ local small businesses called dealers that gave it to the politico's to sign off on.

    Um, so how did the bill become law? Did elves come and sign Obama's signature to it while he was sleeping or something? To pretend that Obama had nothing to do with the law is a bit much. It's his law. He could have vetoed it. He didn't.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I had a 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS which still used the old R-12 Freon and it cooled the car so well, I'd be confident in leaving ie cream in the car on a hot day. Heck, there would actually be FROST building up around the vents when the A/C was set for its coldest setting.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Oh I agree completely.

    I would much rather buy a car with 100,000 miles that was used for long freeway commutes than a 40,000 mile pizza deliver car.

    I love it when people trading in a high mileage car tell me, " Those are ALL freeway miles so it shouldn't matter".

    Well, it does mattter and I'm sure at least SOME of those miles were on surface streets in stop and go traffic.

    I was recently in a airport Shuttle Express van and the driver was having a conversation with another rider. He said the one we were riding in had 375,000 miles and it was one of the newer ones. He said they maintain them very well but rarely have any kind of engine trouble. He said they had one with over 700,000 miles when it got wrecked. These are Fords and they run non stop close to 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I never said that he had nothing to do with it. I said that it was created and pushed and prodded forward by the auto and dealership interests all over the US. He in fact was 'for it' but outside of signing it into law had little to do with it other than make sure it was passed. It was supported by huge important sectors of the US economy.

    Since these huge sectors have huge voices politicians listen. Welcome to the United States of Business.
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