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Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

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Comments

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >The invitation is ONLY sent out to people who belong to the exclusive "Clunker" club. It's a "MEMBERS ONLY" dinner.

    There are also people excluded because they drive clunkers that actually were being driven daily but don't have any money to buy a replacement especially a new replacement. They work low-paying jobs now and are barely getting by; they are not financing fodder for the car salesmen.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • mikemartinmikemartin Member Posts: 205
    Edmund's has a lot of great members, and then they have the self-serving car salesmen that hang around, in the equivalent of standing outside the dealership and taking a smoke break, swapping stories about how they reamed that last customer with ringer charges for things they didn't ask for, didn't need, and paid way too much for.

    This latter group just loves it some CFC government cheese!

    More CFC cheese, please!
  • ponderpointponderpoint Member Posts: 277
    "Now you can see why your statement was entirely wrong."

    Now I'm completely confused.... who are you responding to - "mikemartin" or "ponderpoint"?

    I work at a large Fortune 500 company with most of my co-workers making over 100k. Most of my neighbors are somewhat affluent and older and live rural (not a lot of them). I come from an extended family with all children grown and in or completing college.

    NONE of the people I have come in contact with have have taken advantage of "cash for clunkers" and I have not come across one person yet that has used the program. I will keep checking in my little part of the world.

    A friend who is a confirmed bachelor/airline pilot thought about it briefly and then concluded it was just a waste of time and money given the status of his present vehicle. The only other person is a family member that loves the Prius and traded in a late model Prius for a brand new one (they like the new set-up with the selector paddle on center console), "cash for clunkers" was obviously not involved.

    I will be talking to a friend who is an analyst shortly and get their take on it - that will probably be my last post on this subject - this is getting facetious.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    Just curious, Spyder. You have stated buyers income in several posts and then also stated that they paid cash. If they are not financing, how to you know their income?

    I generally pay cash and have never had a dealer ask me my income. If they did I would let them know in no uncertain terms that it is none of their business.
  • chunglauchunglau Member Posts: 48
    If you pay cash and write a personal check, you have to fill out a credit check. The dealer wants to make sure that you can meet your obligation to pay for the car, one way or another.

    Very few people pay cash with a cashier check, because the exact out-the-door price is often not known until at the very end of the transaction .
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I generally pay cash and have never had a dealer ask me my income. If they did I would let them know in no uncertain terms that it is none of their business.

    Very good point. I have walked out of dealerships when they ask for my Social Security number. I don't give that out to just any car salesman. When you pay cash, they get a check and you get a car. Your income is NO ONE's business except yours and the IRS.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm not sure where you live. In CA when we bought our 2007 Sequoia my wife handed them a personal check and they gave us the keys. They wait for the check to clear before they send in the MSO to the DMV. Every time you allow someone to run your credit it reduces your score. Not a good thing to allow happen at half a dozen dealerships along the strip. If you have to finance wait until you find the exact car and price you want to pay.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't recall C4C being postulated as any "service to the poor". ???

    Hardly. This isn't welfare, and a socialist would be horrified about it (is there a living socialist left in America?) :confuse:

    This is BUSINESS STIMULUS. It invites financially sound people to take advantage, which (shocking!) financially sound people have probably tended to do all their lives in order to GET financially sound.

    It seems rather far-fetched to suppose that the C4C participant is typically broke and living beyond his means. I suggest quite the opposite will show in the data. We'll see.

    I do agree though with most people like me who are socially liberal and financially conservative, that the program has to end after the next round or two. C4C is a shot in the arm for someone with a very bad case of the flu, not a medication for the terminally ill.
  • chunglauchunglau Member Posts: 48
    I live in the Bay Area, and bought all my cars with cash. I had to fill out the credit check unless I want to pick up the car after the personal check clears. Think about this, what if your personal check bounces?

    Of course, you are not going to do this at a half dozen dealerships along the strip. You only do this when you are buying the car, not when you are still negotiating.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    I've never had to fill out a credit check. Guess I must have an honest face! :D
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    I recently wrote a check for a car. To my knowledge I didn't fill out a credit application and would not have done so. Also to my knowledge they were not given permission to run a credit check. I will start checking my free credit reports and if they did do a credit check I'll comment to the salesman and or sales manager. Of course, since I wrote the check on a local bank and ran to the branch to move money into checking might have been a good sign for them? I could have gotten a certified check but they didn't want one; the lady in the other line at the bank was getting a certified check for payment at the same dealer.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Some people end up with a gas-guzzling clunker by no fault of their own. It has happened to me before.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    How does that happen??? The only way I can think of is if you would have inherited the guzzler.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's easier just to wire the money from your account to the dealer account. My bank will do that for free.

    With all the paperwork lined up, it's even easier to make 'em deliver the new car to your house, wire the money at that point, get the keys, and skip the F&I hour long mop and glow wait entirely.

    btw, the credit agencies won't ding you anymore if you have multiple pulls during a short time period at multiple dealers.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have walked into dealerships in CA that have asked for my drivers license and SS# before they would allow me a test drive. I don't mind them copying my DL. Running credit on me is a no no unless I am opening an account at a bank or buying another home on credit. I want to keep my 816 score moving up not down. I know it as of yesterday because we were offered another Obama plan called HARP on our primary and secondary home loans at Wells Fargo. Which will cut our 30 year fixed interest by about $700 per month. So thanks Barry.
  • chunglauchunglau Member Posts: 48
    What you described is a nice, civilized way to handle the paperwork, but I don't think it would have workedl in my C4C deal :). The finance people, the floor manager and the internet salesman were all running around in a panic state. Mine was the second C4C deal they did, and they were constantly asking for more documentation, even though everything was given to them already.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    How does that happen??? The only way I can think of is if you would have inherited the guzzler.

    Well, sometimes your needs just change. For instance, bigger cars tend to be better suited to long highway cruising than buzzy little economy cars. So, let's suppose you bought a Crown Vic years ago because you had to do a lot of highway driving, and the 25 mpg or so you could eke out of a Crown Vic was worth it for the added comfort over the 37-38 mpg you might have gotten out of a Corolla in the same circumstances.

    But, suddenly, your needs change. You don't do a lot of highway driving anymore, and now it's mostly short-trip, local stuff, and the advantages of the Crown Vic aren't so obvious anymore.

    There are tons of scenarios like this. For example, say you needed the towing capacity of a big vehicle, or needed the extra seating capacity of a van, or needed a big vehicle for work, but now, suddenly you don't.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    btw, the credit agencies won't ding you anymore if you have multiple pulls during a short time period at multiple dealers.

    That is good to know. I just do not give anyone the opportunity that does not need to know. The lady at Wells Fargo said if you get more than one for the same loan in less than 30 days it does not ding you. I started the HARP refi on the phone and then went into the local branch, when I got transferred to someone that I could not understand a word she was saying. I really don't like transacting important business online or over the phone. I am big on eye contact and body language.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It's all about the numbers for me and I like to that stuff in writing from the get-go. I don't much care about the body language on a new car transaction.

    But Chunglau's comment kills my usual blast for fax kind of negotiating - with everyone going gangbusters, the fax or email would get lost in the piles of paper on every flat surface. The CARS FAQ even says that "Consumers should expect to conduct their deals at their dealership of choice, not on the Internet."
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    "Edmuinds has a lot of great members and they have the self-serving car salesmen that hang aroud ..etc"

    And they also have a few people who have ran off a lot of the "great" menbers or bored them to the point they lost interest and left.

    As a newcomer to these forums I guess you can't appreciate this.

    I have very mixed feelings about the C4C program and I can argue both viewpoints.

    Personally I think the 3500-4500 dollar amounts are way too high and I can't understand how they came up with those amounts. They could have accomplished the same results with a lot less money.

    What I have noticed is a feeling from a lot of C4C people that they don't really appreciate this program. Some act like it's an entitlement.

    I guess I'll go outside and have a smoke....Oh wait! I don't smoke!
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Edmund's has a lot of great members, and then they have the self-serving car salesmen that hang around, in the equivalent of standing outside the dealership and taking a smoke break, swapping stories about how they reamed that last customer with ringer charges for things they didn't ask for, didn't need, and paid way too much for.

    I book marked this post for use later if you ever, ever have a questions in Real World Trade in values or any other place where salespersons take their own personal time to answer questions about cars and the car business.

    Keep that in mind if you are ignored entirely.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I for one think there is a good balance on Edmund's. I would hate to see anyone leave that can carry on a civil debate without losing their cool. No two people agree on everything. And opinions are just that. I know I have gone off on rants many times. Does not mean I don't read opposing viewpoints. It is after all supposed to be informative and fun.

    Just watched a video of Congress man Russ Carnahan getting the 3rd degree over the C4C program. Seems a lot of folks in his district are not thrilled with the program. Sadly our representatives do not always listen to their constituents.

    Carnahan held a press conference at McMahon Ford in south St. Louis city. Constituents who showed up to politely and peacefully voice their concerns were both barred from entering the lobby where Carnahan was fielding press inquiries and prevented from asking their elected official any questions.

    The congressman was nearly drowned out by chants of “Can Carnahan!” He even got into a verbal scuffle with a reporter who asked the congressman a valid question, a question Carnahan avoided. He would only address the constituents as “naysayers.” It’s unfortunate that we live in an era where showing up to voice your concerns to your elected official is deemed “disruptive.”


    Video link
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Divorce. Marriage. Death in family. Military deployment.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Divorce. Marriage. Death in family. Military deployment.

    New job. Retirement. Change of location. The list goes on. . .
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    new baby, second baby, college, etc.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    I was probably taking the "no fault of my own" comment too literally. That phrase just totally grinds on my nerves as it seems to be used by Obama too much when he wants to bail people out.

    If you got it thru inheritance, marriage, etc I agree- no fault of your own.

    If you bought it because it made sense at the time, and not no longer does, it is though fault of your own IMO. Believe me, I've made car purchases that in retrospect weren't too smart, but since no one was holding a gun to my head, they were my own fault.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, trust me - in many cases, it does become "by no fault of their own."

    Not saying at all that people are not responsible for their own decisions.

    But, for example: is it "my" fault that my house has dropped in value by about 40% in three years? No - it was the fault of people doing things which I had no control over.

    But I do have to keep paying my mortgage on a house that might NEVER come back up to the value I bought it for.

    My fault? No. My problem? Yes.

    But I do get your point.
  • 94gs94gs Member Posts: 59
    I did not fill out a credit check form this time. But the dealer had my driver's license number. It won't surprise me if they checked my credit (I don't mind the check), because they took my check (a complete stranger's check) and let me drive the new car home.

    The dealer I bought my other new car in 2003 did ask me to sign a credit check form. I also wrote a check and they allowed me to drive the new car home.

    P.S. The new cars I bought are not very expensive (e..g, not Lexus or Benz).
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    This is a huge country with a huge amount of wealth. Consider that from 1990 to 2000 roughly 50 million of these 'clunker' type vehicles were sold. Normal shrinkage in this fleet occured of course so let's estimate that half of these are still on the road, 25,000,000 units.

    250,000 units is 1% of this fleet. It's not surprising in your affluent group that maybe only 1 in 100 might take advantage of the program. On this end we get all the 1%-ers arriving in one place...the auto store.
  • sherofthe80ssherofthe80s Member Posts: 43
    Personally I think the 3500-4500 dollar amounts are way too high and I can't understand how they came up with those amounts. They could have accomplished the same results with a lot less money.

    I'm not sure about that. Just from my own experience, it had to be well worth it for us to take advantage of it. Our van was probably worth around $1,900. If the clunker deal was close to the $1,900, we wouldn't have made a move at this time. That $4,500 put us in the market for a new car when would have normally bought another gently used as we've been doing since we started a family.
  • mikemartinmikemartin Member Posts: 205
    This is a huge country with a huge amount of wealth. Consider that from 1990 to 2000 roughly 50 million of these 'clunker' type vehicles were sold. Normal shrinkage in this fleet occured of course so let's estimate that half of these are still on the road, 25,000,000 units.

    250,000 units is 1% of this fleet. It's not surprising in your affluent group that maybe only 1 in 100 might take advantage of the program. On this end we get all the 1%-ers arriving in one place...the auto store.


    Most Americans have a negative net wealth, even those approaching retirement, and they're getting deeper in debt by the day, even though there has been a temporary savings boom of about 5% of income (which may or may not be used by crazy American consumers to reduce total debt levels at some point in the future, rather than be spent).

    In fact, the U.K. and the U.S.A. have, by far, the highest levels of household debt in the world.

    Not only that, but Americans' wealth has shrunk by 15 trillion dollars based on falling home and other asset values, since 2007. http://www.palmbeachpost.com/business/content/business/epaper/2009/07/26/sunbiz_- - debtdecline_0726.html

    The government is running a 1.7 to 2.2 trillion dollar annual deficit, depending on what metrics you use.

    The government has over 60 trillion dollars of unfunded, mandatory future liabilities, and that money will have to be appropriated by taxation or other means from U.S. citizens and businesses.

    This is based on the sworn testimony and analysis of David M. Walker, the former Comptroller General of the United States of America.

    You should see 'IOUSA,' as it's a terrific documentary, and very frightening at the same time.

    So, the United States does not have "a huge amount of wealth."

    The United States has a huge amount of debt, also known as negative net wealth.
  • sherofthe80ssherofthe80s Member Posts: 43
    Edmund's has a lot of great members, and then they have the self-serving car salesmen that hang around, in the equivalent of standing outside the dealership and taking a smoke break, swapping stories about how they reamed that last customer with ringer charges for things they didn't ask for, didn't need, and paid way too much for.

    Now that was a low blow. First of all, the contributing salesman members make themselves known as salesman...they don't have to do that. They could just lurk around or post incognito. I appreciate having them here to bounce things off of or to hear their point of view. Salesman are people too! ;) Kumbaya and group hug now...
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Good question, the buyers investigate what the financing options are as a normal part of the buying process. If there's an advantage to use a local credit union or TFS because of subvented rates - especially for shortterm loans - then we do draw credit.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Here in VA if someone gives us a personal check for a substantial amount then we do draw their credit to make sure that they are who they say they are and that they are capable of buying such a vehicle with that check.

    In the past we used to call the check-writer's bank if it was during business hours to verify if the funds were in the account. After hours that's not possible.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Member Posts: 574
    Most Americans have a negative net wealth...

    ///////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    I'm assuming this also means "most Americans have a negative net worth". Do you have any valid statistics that back up that claim?

    This is something I have never heard before and would like to see a what basis you use to make such a claim.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Two of the last four new vehicles we bought were personal checks. Toyota and GMC here in San Diego. It was during the day, so I would assume they would call the bank to verify funds. The other two we flew to Denver and Portland. So we had the amount before we left and took a cashiers check. Which can be risky as they both gave us the MSO when we paid them. They were both licensed to my Alaska residence. None had trade-in vehicles. Makes it so much easier to negotiate without throwing another vehicle into the mess. Probably a good reason to steer clear of C4C. Though I can fully understand someone happy to get $4500 in trade for a $500 POC.

    Maybe they trust me because I am always in shorts, sandals and Hawaiian shirts.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    But even if you run a credit report on them, that wouldn't show their income.

    I'm not trying to be difficult, just curious as I've never been asked my income when buying a car.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That's part of the credit app. It's a specific line on the form. When filling out the app before the credit is drawn the customers' are asked the question and invariably..100% of the time..they answer.
  • mnappi0606mnappi0606 Member Posts: 14
    Hello All:

    If there is anyone in this forum who ACTUALLY traded in your clunker, how long did it take for the government to approve?

    If you are a dealer, what has been your typical turn-around on getting approvals from the DOT?
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    A very good question.

    This particular discussion is more about the "big picture" of the program. There's another discussion, Cash for Clunkers--Does it Work for You? which might offer more of the information you're seeking.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    Oh, now I get it; guess I had a blonde moment.

    If they pay with a check you have them fill out a credit app similar to as if they were financing. I've never been asked for anything when I pay by check, although some of the dealers have held the titlework for a few days.

    Here's another question for you. If they want to take if for a day long test before they buy, do you require them to fill out something to show their credit worthiness first? I've never been asked to do that either.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No car buyer is being "bailed out" by the C4C program however. They are still either responsible for a long car loan or for the balance of the selling price.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    Did I ever say that I thought they were?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    there was an article in one of the local papers, that there is an increased interest in new vehicles from buyers who don't have a clunker to trade in.
    i think this is a side benefit of the program.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, you were talking about how people who made bad decisions when they previously bought gas-eating SUVs, and implied (or I interpreted) that they are now being bailed out.

    Sorry if I read that wrong. It seemed to imply that people were being rescued for making bad decisions. And my response was that this was never the intent of the program, even if there could be some correlation in what you say.

    There is most certainly a "bail out" but it's for the auto industry.

    Staying too long in Ch 11 would have been fatal for GM and Chrysler. Notice how fast they worked to get out of that stigmatizing label?

    The last auto company to survive Ch. 11 was Studebaker in 1934.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    I was probably taking the "no fault of my own" comment too literally. That phrase just totally grinds on my nerves as it seems to be used by Obama too much when he wants to bail people out.

    Although I didn't state it, I was speaking more to housing bailouts and personal responsibility. The people who bought houses they couldn't afford and those that used the house as bank account to draw out equity when appraisals were increasing over the last few years.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think that disaster was due more to completely unethical behavior rather than just the process of living off home equity--or rather, the unethical behavior greatly increased the ill effects of people's credit binge-ing.

    C4C may or may not prove "wise" but I don't see it in any way as corrupt behavior.

    I was leaning to your side anyway in not wanting to bail *most* mortgage holders. I finally decided that it should have been conducted on a case by case basis and that the foolish or corrupt should be held completely responsible, and the blameless given a hand.

    But I'm definitely pro-C4C because I don't see a serious down side at the moment, now that I know most of the stats.
  • orgitsorgits Member Posts: 3
    This makes no sense to me. The enivronment gets more bang for its buck if Category 3 vehicles were traded in for Category 1 vehicles. I have a category 3 (ford e350 extended van) and wanted a small suv (hyundai santa fe) which is a category 1, but the rules dont allow it. Why would they have this restriction on it? :mad:
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I agree. The rules governing a Category 3 clunker don't make sense to me.
  • newdavidqnewdavidq Member Posts: 146
    The country in general and these forums in particular have expended a lot of "ink" discussing the cash for clunkers program. It is, of course, a transfer payment (of borrowed money} from one group of taxpayers to another with consequences yet to be seen. The worst thing is that the groups from whom this money is being taken are our children and grandchildren. I know this clunker thing is made to order for the Edmunds platform and is the place where it should be discussed; but the rest of the country is talking about it instead of talking more about the really big money that is being spent which, I think, is the real reason for the clunker program.
    Too bad we can't trade today's federal government in; it surely qualifies as a "clunker".
    Regards, DQ
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