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Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Handing people money is a poor way to help. Establishing soup kitchens to feed those on the street and out of work would be a low cost solution to hunger. It took the Feds several years into the Depression before they got involved with a simple solution that was started in 1929 by none other than Al Capone to feed people that had lost their jobs. It was mostly churches that carried the load up to that time. Today the ACLU would probably stop any such joint venture with churches.

    I can feed about 50 people with $10 worth of soup & bread. C4C $3 billion would provide one good meal a day for about 15 million people, for over 3 years.

    C4C will be a distant memory in a month, for all but the few that got the handout.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Handing people money is a poor way to help.

    Ain't that the truth! In fact, I think one of the worst things you can do to poor people is give them money. The wino or drug addict out on the street corner is only going to use it to get another 40 or hit or rock or whatever. And just look at how many lottery winners end up being broke after a few years.

    Giving money to people who don't have the knowledge or discpline to handle it is just asking for trouble.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually I almost killed some climbers in Alaska dropping them a package from a plane---not a good idea!!! (well they did say "drop it close")

    AND NOW.....

    It's......TAA-DAA

    C4R
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    By C4R are you referring to that "Cash for Refrigerators" article on MSN money or Yahoo or whereever?

    I might actually try to jump on that one. I've been thinking about getting a new fridge for awhile. The one I have now, I got back in 2003 when my neighbor sold his condo and the new owner remodeled it to use as a rental. They just wanted that fridge gone, so I went over with a hand truck and hauled it across the parking lot from their garage to mine. I guess it dates back to the late 80's or early 90's, so I guess a new one would be more energy efficient.

    Years ago, my Granddad used to have one of those old 1950's style refrigerators in his garage, the kind that kids could lock themselves in. We took the door off of it and threw it out in 1994. I wonder if today, an old relic like that might actually have some value? It still worked fine.

    **EDIT: Okay, now I see that C4R link coming up as clickable.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    Besides, with the significant welfare reforms that went into place in 1996,

    Are you serious? This was a shifting of payouts from the welfare system to the tax system. Example: in 1994 single parent w/ 2 kids making 10K got 2,528 negative tax money in form of EIC. In 2009, the 10K earning would now be around 15K with inflation. Negative tax payout w/ EIC, refundable child tax credit, and making work pay is now 7.3K, or close to 50% as a negative tax rate.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,681
    Ay yay yay. As Andre said, it simply feeds the habit. I don't know if anyone else is looking (I do, because one day I will have a kitchen in which to put appliances!), but now is a fantastic time to buy appliances even without this extra gov't "incentive." Even with the ridiculous inflation we have experienced this decade, prices on appliances are better than what I have seen around here in years. And yet, people still need incentives; sounds to me like folks have just stopped needlessly buying, which really is not a bad thing at all unless you are all about bigger, better, faster, and more. :sick:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    How about lobbying for another program: "It's ..... TAA-TAA" I hear plastic surgeons' business is way off. Maybe a government subsidy for T&A work? Now that might get my "support". :P
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    That's what I've been promoting - stop needless buying. Stop spending $ on goods, many of which are made overseas and thus makes us poorer as a nation. Let's stop incentivizing people to make our trade deficit larger and going deeper into debt.
    Many of the "clunkers" that people got rid of still could get from Pt. A to Pt. B. I was thinking about buying a friend's old Dodge Ram and using it as a plow-truck; but now it's sitting at a dealer's waiting to be crushed. That seems like quite the waste.
    BTW: he bought a fairly thirsty Honda Pilot w/his clunker. Paid cash. He would have bought a vehicle later this year without the program. He said it just pulled his purchase forward a few months.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are right. Most appliances if not all are made elsewhere. C4R is just sending more money overseas. Getting more people to spend on credit.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Drat--and I just spent $800 for a new dishwasher (installed).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think you are talking about something else, (not sure what) but not the Reform Act of 1996. I was referring to H.R. 3734. Here's a link so that we don't get off topic here.

    LINK
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    They aren't competent, and the problems are much deeper than the current bozos in congress - the previous bozos were able to do no better, and the next bozos will likely do even worse.

    But in the end, C4C is still a drop in the expense bucket, and is not worth the attention given to it by the alarmist media. It does make a good distraction from real problems, however - maybe that's why it was implemented to begin with...
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    I was very aware of what you were referring to. However, it is my belief that the 96 act thats sets time limits on entitlements and cash assistance to welfare recipients was offset by dramatically increasing refundable tax credits. Basically, a government shell game that looks good politically.

    I could go on about the abuse of EIC for days, but you are correct that this is not the place for that.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Dang!!! Looks like I'll miss out on another government giveaway.

    Had to buy a new washer early this summer when the old one wouldn't stop leaking. Bought our new refrig 2 years ago, so nothing needed there :cry: :mad:
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Years ago, my Granddad used to have one of those old 1950's style refrigerators in his garage...

    Did it have the coils on top of the unit??? I remember my uncle had one of those.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You could use the "rob Peter to pay Paul" argument about anything Congress does.

    If you don't spend it on highways, you can't just take it and use it for something else, and if Program A indirectly spends more money than Program B makes, that doesn't mean they are related to each other or that this was a deliberate intention. There's no "shell game" about it except in the way the deficit is presently IN A LUMP. That can be quite misleading, that's true.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    Of course it is. The money is still going to the same people, it's just called something different.

    Similar to calling it auto bailout or cash for clunkers.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    it pretty much proves they would be wholly unable to handle a healthcare system

    Privatizing is often more expensive and less effective than having government do it. (Blackwater may be the poster child). IBM is all screwed up trying to take over social services in Indiana (WSJ). I'm always fighting Blue Cross and I can't call my congressman about them.

    In topical news, our CEO keeps getting quoted about C4C:

    "Beyond the Monday night closing time, the program has still left consumers with the sense that "it's OK to buy a car now," Cannon said.

    "The main question now is 'How fast can everybody restock their inventories?'" he said.

    Once that happens, Anwyl of Edmunds.com said he expects car prices to fall quickly. Automakers will need to start adding incentives again to get people to buy all those newly minted cars. Anwyl expects incentives of about $3,000 on average.

    "I would wait until probably November," Anwyl said."

    Clunkers: Dealers get ready for the 'hangover' (CNN)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Did it have the coils on top of the unit??? I remember my uncle had one of those.

    No, it wasn't quite that old, as the coils were integrated into it. I do remember it only had one door though, with the freezer at the top and the fridge part on the bottom. They weren't totally separate from each other though. I guess they just figured out a way for it to make the upper part stay colder than the lower.

    It was kind of a neat old relic though. I sorta wish we'd held onto it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Those old "monitor top" refrigerators are one of the most durable appliances ever made, if not the most durable. There are quite a few still in working order today.

    When I was a little kid, an old man who lived on our street had one in his garage. My dad was friends with this guy, and we'd visit now and then. That old machine interested me because of the noise it made. IIRC those went out of production around 1935 or so.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My friend Ralph, who died a few years ago at age 101 (!!!) used to drain his hot water heater every year. I think he bought it in 1954, he said, and used it until the mid 1990s.
  • tj6968tj6968 Member Posts: 23
    All government programs is just a redistribution of wealth. It's taxpayers dollars going from one person to the next. There is no such thing as government and our government needs to realize this fact.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    There is no such thing as government and our government needs to realize this fact.

    Huh?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I can still remember the man delivering ice for our ice box in Los Angeles. That was the late 1940s. He would always give us kids little chunks of ice to suck on. Not sure what year we got a refrigerator. No C4C welfare programs back then. My mom and grandma worked 10-12 hours a day sewing to support my sister and me.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah you got me there...

    Anarchist?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well you had Social Security and the G.I. Bill in the late 40s. Those are social welfare. The G.I. bill didn't specify combat or even going overseas, and SS includes child welfare and unemployment, protection for the elderly, and SS is, of course, partially funded by employers. G.I. Bill is right "out of your pocket", even for a GI goofball who made it through two years without courts-martial.

    They are all "something for nothing" in a sense, or partly.

    Specifying government aid programs only for the "deserving" is a very slippery slope, turns out.
  • mannix77mannix77 Member Posts: 76
    Top 10 Trade-In Vehicles
    1. Ford Explorer 4WD
    2. Ford F150 Pickup 2WD
    3. Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD
    4. Jeep Cherokee 4WD
    5. Ford Explorer 2WD
    6. Dodge Caravan/Grand Caravan 2WD
    7. Chevrolet Blazer 4WD
    8. Ford F150 Pickup 4WD
    9. Chevrolet C1500 Pickup 2WD
    10. Ford Windstar FWD Van

    http://jalopnik.com/5344263/ten-most-traded+in-and-purchased-cash-for-clunkers-c- - ars-almost-over/gallery/

    Have to give credit to GM, for being #9 on this list.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm surprised to see the F150 Ford 4X4 pickup on that list.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Why they made 500,000 of them a year for how many years? Plenty of old rusty pickup trucks worth almost nothing.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    The Honda had a buyout of $8300 which is due / or lease is up in 2 months - dealer said they would pay next two months of lease

    OK... it make sense to only pay the last two months of payments.... you would be resposible for returning the lease and making the last two payments. You should have picked up a check for the last two payments at time of delivery.

    My understanding of the bill is if a business wants to trade a clunka they can only do it once under the business name . I did not experience any of that because mine were all personal owners of the vehicles being used for CFC.

    (Amazed) and :confuse:

    Why on earth did no one notice that the trade vehicle being used for CFC was in a business name. It was rule number one. Who ever was on the title will be on the title of the new vehicle. Which would not have made any difference to your daughter because she would have been in a lease and would need to be listed on the insurance as a driver.

    What ever dealer you were working with had their head in the sand. I would wait and see what happens or contact a attorney. you should probably contact a attorney.

    Now my concern is.... lets say you unwind the deal????? How was your clunka handled while on the dealer property? Was hit with baseball bats? Was it used in a game of bumper cars? Was the body or any parts inside the vehicle stolen or damaged? How is the paint was it dameged by people keying it?

    Way to many problems here that the dealer should have seen before you took delivery. Now the rule states that they can pursue you in a court of law for the money..... but what do you really think is going to happen? I really don't know. to be honest I have been waiting to hear these stories because of the pain we went through to get things done right.

    Best of luck!

    GP
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When I was looking for a used PU it was amazing to me how many F150s were being offered with 200k miles or more. I was looking for a truck with less than 100k miles. You get up to 200k miles there are a lot of things that are stressed to the max. Even if the engine still sounds ok. I think that list shows the popularity of Ford PU trucks and SUVs from 10-20 years ago.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    Based on what you've posted, it does seem like the dealer intentionally "played dumb"

    I would bet my bonus they didn't "play dumb".... I would bet on the fact who ever was handling the transaction was "DUMB"

    GP ;)
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    "The program interrupted the much-needed reallocation, or creative destruction, of excess capacity in the auto industry," said Marta in emailed comments.

    And, the program prompted "lower-middle- and middle-class owners of older vehicles to lever up on debt and depreciate assets at a time when these people should be shoring up their balance sheets in the face of rising unemployment," the analyst added.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-stock-market-sectors-buoyed-by-short-term-ai- d-2009-08-24

    So anyone going to the dealers this weekend to see what it looks like?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    So anyone going to the dealers this weekend to see what it looks like?

    I'm going to wait until the inventory levels build back up.

    I am curious to see if the three car dealers who have my name and number will call me later in the week or next.

    The feds are giving the dealers more time to file, since today's rush to beat the deadline crashed the computers (again).

    Cash For Clunkers Drives Off, Dealer Filing Deadline Extended (Edmunds Daily)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    personally, i will never buy anything other than a foreign buggy whip.
    they are much better than the domestic ones and even if they aren't, everyone thinks they are.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    another view of that is there can be an economic benefit on a larger scale.
    not only that, if your #2 gets a career out of it, they will pay more in taxes than they were fronted for their project, in the long run.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I'm going to wait until the inventory levels build back up.

    That's my plan too. I figure the dealers will be real hungry sometime between Thanksgiving and the end of the year, since I understand that is a slow part of the year for them in the best of times.

    My wife's been bugging me to get something new(er) than what I currently drive. I think she's a little bit (well, maybe a lot) embarrassed to be seen in my '92 SE-R or '87 '325 :P . It's actually a nice position to be in, rather than having to fight with your SO about spending money on a replacement vehicle.
  • zoomzoomnzoomzoomn Member Posts: 143
    I don't know a single dealer in my area that has yet recieved their first payment. ZERO! One dealer I was talking to is out $1.8M and waiting to be reimbursed!!! They stopped the program early when they found out how much they are having to go through to get their money back. The process, it would seem, has a certain amount of red tape. It's pretty clear cut, but the dealers keep getting the claimed vouchers rejected for niggly details. Add to that the fact there's up to a 10 day period allowed for response...on the initial claim and the resubmissions. The dealers weren't banking on this type of delay. Literally. Maybe the gov will add interest! Ha!!!

    :sick:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I'm surprised to see the F150 Ford 4X4 pickup on that list.

    I'm not surprised, considering my '76 LeMans probably does more serious off-roading than the typical 4x4 (I went off my gravel driveway and onto the grass this morning :P )

    Most people probably buy 4wd vehicles because they thought they were cool, or thought they really needed them, but then it turns out they didn't. 4wd vehicles are often rated 1-2 mpg worse than their 2wd counterparts, so that makes them more desireable as a C4C trade-in.

    And, like British Rover said, they made a ton of them, so that means there's a ton of 'em out there with owners just waiting to dump them. Heck, there's an F250 4x4 next door to me, with a for sale sign in the window. Only problem with it is that it wouldn't make for a very good C4C vehicle. For one thing, it's too heavy-duty, with a GVWR of 8600 lb. So I think it can only be traded for another heavy truck...forget about swapping this one for a Prius. Also, I don't think it has insurance on it, and the tag is expired, so I'm sure they'd ding you for the lapse in insurance. I wonder what kind of fuel economy a big brute like that would get, anyway?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't know a single dealer in my area that has yet recieved their first payment. ZERO!

    I am not surprised in the least. It is the way the Feds do business. You submit 3-4 times and it goes through 3-4 levels of incompetency before they finally decide you are serious about getting what you are owed. Happens in Medicare continually. I will be interested on the statistics of dealerships that go bankrupt waiting for their money. If they were hanging on by a thread as many are it could be the straw. One salesman here claims they were getting paid right on time. He has not posted for a while so maybe he will update us on what he thinks now that the program is in the history books.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Most people probably buy 4wd vehicles because they thought they were cool

    I do agree that many people had no need for a 4X4 especially in So CA. Yet a fellow worker that bought a new Tahoe every other year through his brother's GM plan found out it is a tough sell with only 2WD. It was the only Tahoe he had a hard time unloading after keeping it two years. That was all through the 1990s up til I retired in 2006. Now I would not count on it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...traded her 1995 Mercury Villager her daughters named "The Loser Cruiser" for a new Toyota RAV4. Thing is, she didn't realized she just sentenced her old vehicle to death. When I tried to explain it to her, she's like, "They're not going to do that, are they? Stop stop! I don't wanna hear it!" :cry:
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    We can continue to spend more than we make for a while longer, but then the payback for our sociey is going to be worse. Whether you want to believe Congress's or Obama's projections we're going broke. We will soon have to start reducing the give-aways that various groups have come to expect.

    "The alarm bells on our nation's fiscal condition have now become a siren," Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said. "If anyone had any doubts that this burden on future generations is unsustainable, they're gone — spending, borrowing and debt are out of control."

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-08-25-white-house-deficits_N.htm
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My IM guy was laughing at the dealers yesterday, wanting to be paid immediately. He pulled out some utility bill that he was getting around to mailing that day - 45 days after being billed. Some dealer around the forum said the other day that no one gets paid on net 10.

    If a dealer is having that much of a cash flow problem, they can hunt for a loan against receivables like most other retail outfits do. And several manufacturers are floating them cash against their booked deals.
  • zoomzoomnzoomzoomn Member Posts: 143
    "If anyone had any doubts that this burden on future generations is unsustainable, they're gone — spending, borrowing and debt are out of control."

    Amen. This is nothing new, though! We've been broke for decades, but this administration has definitely put some huge, super grip nails in the coffin. My great grand children thank you!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well as you say, you live high on the hog, you pay for it eventually. From my view, the government only fulfilled the will of the people--to live far beyond our means. Cheap credit, fast paper profits. And we are surprised that we have a monstrous hangover, and a huge tab, after the party is over? Welcome to the Real World, America!

    DEALERS: -- big story in my local paper....dealers are *very* happy to have had the business, but *very* burned out with stacks of paperwork and the delays. Some claim to be "brain dead" figuring it all out.

    Some dealers did record sales, and once the dust settles, they should end up "happy". But for now, they are not pleased with the labor involved to process all these claims.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yup even the manufacturers only pay us on incentives once a month although some do it once a week just depends on the brand.

    The only problem is that we are used to waiting on the manufacturer a lot of people get nervous waiting on the gov't but everyone I have ever talked to about gov't work says the pay period is usually about 30 days anyway. We haven't had to wait for 30 days for anything yet. That and in some cases dealers are waiting on double the amount of money they would usually be waiting on. Chrysler matched many of their incentives to the CARS rebates so each one of those deals has double the shortfall.

    When I asked last week we had been paid on half a dozen deals but we really couldn't even get anything submitted until a few days after the program went live cause of the system crashing. I think we ended up with 91 clunker deals but 30 of those were done from Thursday to yesterday.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Typical 'internet truths' being promoted here.

    You're agreeing and validating a 3rd hand unsubstantiated 'truth'. Therefore with your further validation then the prior poster's statement, no matter how erroneous, must be accurate.

    Now for the real truth. We were paid for our first 15 units 10 days after we filed them. As of now we have more C4C units booked than any other store in a 200 mile radius ...any make ...any brand. We were taking them in as late as yesterday. We are being paid slowly but regularly. Since we had the most inventory of any store in that 200 mile radius we were able to do more business than anyone else. We also have the most exposure of any store as a result of this huge volume.

    We will be paid in due course and we will have the most profitable month in the history of the store. Currently we're sitting on 3 days of inventory instead of the usual 27-30 days of inventory. What's not to like?

    Save this post.....there will be a C4C sequel soon. It was too successful not to be repeated.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It was the prior administrations that bear most of the blame. They were in office for 8 yrs each. You're not even talking about the same order of magnitude.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    And several manufacturers are floating them cash against their booked deals.

    Yes, the large makers are funding the 'clunker shortfalls' at the dealers either for free or at low rates. At any rate it's a tempest in a teapot as regards the cost. If the funding is available even at normal rates then $4000 for 30 days @ 6% p a is $20!!!

    Yup, that's a $20 bill. That sounds like a tip for lunch.
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