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Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

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Comments

  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    LOL, hope the KY highway patrol agrees. I'm going through next month and really going to try to NOT get a ticket this time. :blush:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    > Who left this mess for Pres.Obama to clean up.

    Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and his boyfriend at Fannie Mae, Maxine Waters, Pelosi, etc., all who didn't want to tighten down on lending requirements when that was pointed out to them. Instead they wanted to loosen the reins for lending to people who had no hope of repaying and for homes that were grossly over valued by the appraisals from the crooked mortgage folk. And see the reaction tapes when Bush suggested tightening down.

    >Maybe you haven't noticed ,but the economy is better than it was in 2008.

    Where? Unemployment is 15% per the Merrill Lynch presentation I saw today on investing.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    <Us Hoosiers might be a little slow

    I'm a Hoosier also. I downgraded to being a Buckeye. Please be kind.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,569
    LOL.. go as fast as you want.. we need the revenue!

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  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    Right; and driving a motorcycle is much more dangerous per mile than driving a car; but we still allow it. There are plenty of dangerous things people do for fun.

    If we wanted to be really safe we'd only allow the safest design car on the road, ban motorcycles, get bicycles on the sidewalk, set the speed limit for 20 mph, and have a cop and ambulance standing by every mile, no matter what the cost. We'd also pass legislation that only necessary driving was allowed, as the more we drive the higher chance of having an accident any given day is. Thank god we don't care about safety too much. :P
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >There is a bus that has the room for 30 or so people and travels consistently between several points
    >In some parts of the country that is just not feasible or practical.

    Better transit is nice but it must be in areas with a population density to support it.

    In the Dayton area the public bus system gets sales tax as well as government monies and I believe they also get a millage on property. Over the decades they spent heavily. They even contributed to building the local baseball field near downtown! along with the state government. The buses are empty much of the day in many areas. The bus system paid an administrator a couple hundred thou a year and she retired and returned to work the next day without the controlling board knowing. Collected retirement at a high rate and her full salary. The manure really hit the fan.

    Currently public transit just raised their fares to $1.50 because they're not going to get more sales tax rate and the sales tax has dropped because of deceased spending. The new manager gets a couple hundred and works much better. But the news came out that the union bus people have several making over $100,000 for driving a bus (overtime).

    They cut back on service.

    The public transportation systems require a density of population to be successful. Otherwise, they are just an expensive waste.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • eeeoeeeo Member Posts: 9
    C4C I have heard upset the charities since it pulled a lot of vehicles out of service that they would have received as donations.

    Hopefully the people buying these vehicles would then be able to acquire jobs that would allow them to earn enough to pay for gas, etc. In North Texas I had insurance that was $28 a month...I do qualify for State Farm but was pretty broke at the time and we could afford this. There are areas such as North Texas where the jobs are have no public transit...the city of Arlington has no bus service for example.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    you would probably faint if i told you how much i am paying for car insurance (5 cars).
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I prefer to think of helmetless motorcyclists as Darwin's theories in action. :)

    Hey, NUMMI plant is closing in Fremont California.

    That's a good example in microcosm of a D3 collapse. The local news featured all the businesses that will be devastated by this closing, including suppliers, local restaurants, and local manufacturers who have contracts.
    they figure 35,000 jobs ultimately are on the line here.

    Also,the city of Fremont loses 1.9 million in taxes.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Where? Unemployment is 15% per the Merrill Lynch presentation I saw today on investing.

    You trust Merrill Lynch???
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They'll make you a million dollars...if you give them ten million.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    We're in agreement.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    What happened to your '88 Park Avenue, lemko?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >they figure 35,000 jobs ultimately are on the line here.
    Also,the city of Fremont loses 1.9 million in taxes.

    Welcome to the job loss club. We in the Midwest have been going through this for years in auto arena. Although I'm sure this is small tot he economy of California, the ripple effect of losing the well-paying manufacturing jobs hurts the region. :sick:

    And despite what the Guru says, just replacing them with "green" jobs and windmill making isn't going to work. :mad:

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >You trust Merrill Lynch???

    Nope. But I do trust the two independent presenters in re economy currently and investing. They are very accurate in their discussion for the audience. They are within a Merrill group, but give the presentations for a large group of which I am one element. They are not there pimping Merrill products. They are there giving advice to us members of the set and we can do where and as we choose.

    I attended a presentation about 10 months ago by them and they were spot on then and spot on yesterday.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    They are using raw unadjusted numbers for unemployment and you can't do that. Well you can if you have an agenda you are pushing but it is really more to scare people then to actually show what real unemployment is.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Replaced it with a white 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis LS that was part of an estate of my girlfriend's deceased uncle. Thought I'd help her family out a little as her aunt couldn't drive it as she is 84 years-old, blind in one eye, and moving to a retirement village. I sold the 1988 Park Ave to some kids who really wanted it for about $1500. I see it from time to time. The paint is really bad.

    image
  • 100chuck100chuck Member Posts: 149
    Probably better if you spend the money at one of his ridiculous priced seminars. He didn't explain how all these poor people are going to get car loans.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    Hey, if everyone listened to Dave Ramsey the auto industry would go under! I seem to remember his belief is you should not buy a new car unless you have 1 million in net worth.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Atlanta Fed Chief says it is actually 16%.

    "If one considers the people who would like a job but have stopped looking -- so-called discouraged workers -- and those who are working fewer hours than they want, the unemployment rate would move from the official 9.4 percent to 16 percent, said Atlanta Fed chief Dennis Lockhart.

    The way unemployment is figured is somewhat shady. Been that way for a very long time.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Hey, if everyone listened to Dave Ramsey the auto industry would go under! I seem to remember his belief is you should not buy a new car unless you have 1 million in net worth.

    I guess buying a used car, versus new, is almost always the way to go no matter how rich you are. Still, somebody has to buy the things new, otherwise they never become USED cars! :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Dave Ramsey would probably think I'm an idiot, but if I buy new, I at least know the car's entire history. I don't have to worry that the previous owner drove it like a madman and/or neglected it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Buying new is ok as long as you get the price well below Invoice. Anything above that is money down the toilet. I know none of our sales people will agree. I just preach good individual economics. I rarely buy used though I do believe it is the smartest way to buy. Especially on expensive vehicles that lose the most out the door.

    C4C for those with a beater was smart, if you got the price right before the gift from the tax payers was used.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I know exactly how unemployment is calculated and it is calculated that way for a reason. There are always people that aren't counted as unemployed because they aren't looking for work and they aren't necessarily discouraged workers. Some of them are sure but you can't count all the housewives and housedads as unemployed too.

    Them some of the self employed who are actually working get thrown into that raw number too. How do you count people that are underemployed do they get counted as 3/4 of a person if they are only working 30 hours a week? The raw data isn't adjusted seasonally either.

    Like lots of statistics you can't just look at the raw data there has to be some adjustment or it makes a lot less sense.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yup if no one buys them new how can you get a good deal on them used?

    Also sometimes buying new is a better deal when the incentives are very good and the supply of used cars is tight. Edmunds published a list of cars that were better off buying new then used back a month or so ago.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    I was brought up with that belief. My parents referred to buying a used car as buying someone elses problems.

    If someone buys new and keeps it for a long time, they are fine. Personally, I've always bought new until a couple years ago and never kept a car long enough to wear it out. I seemed to be swayed too easy to want something else. I need to find something less expensive to be passionate about. :(
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, I know what you mean, though I have kept my 1989 Cadillac Brougham I purchased new for over 20 years. Sometimes I wish I had a more cost-effective passion like collecting matchbook covers.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What the Fed giveth the state taketh away. :sick:

    "That means they need their title, their damage disclosure, their bill of sale and the dealers have 30 days to get that to them," Minnehaha County Treasurer Pam Nelson said.

    But many of those cashing in on the clunkers program are surprised when they get to the treasurer's office windows. That's because the government's rebate of up to $4500 dollars for every clunker is taxable.


    http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail6162.cfm?Id=0,89084
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Glad someone is enjoying your well-maintained Park Avenue. That Grand Marquis LS looks pristine.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Over in Germany, there's plenty of government interference in trying to save job loss there:

    http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1918853,00.html

    The article is interesting to me on a number of levels:

    1. GM is backtracking and now wants to keep European operations so as to "overtake Toyota worldwide" (well, nothing wrong with dreamin' big I guess)

    2. Obama once again disappoints the American Socialist Party by refusing to interfere with GM/Opel wrangle in any way whatsoever. He says it's GMs business to restructure as they see fit in Europe.

    3. American taxpayer money cannot be used to fix Opel in Europe---didn't know that but now I do.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Most of the posters in here had figured out long ago that you'd still have to pay state taxes when you registered the new car - some reporter was looking for a screamer headline I think.
  • 100chuck100chuck Member Posts: 149
    GM No. 1 in China on Cheap Minivans Outselling Buick
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=apZ8D8YQ1ZM0

    Looks like they are doing well in the emerging markets.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Uh its a rebate in any state that rebates are taxable you are going to have to be state sales tax on it.

    Talk about stating the obvious.
  • eeeoeeeo Member Posts: 9
    Not only that, but don't finance a car under any circumstances. I remember calling him once a few years ago when I was a car salesman...he told me to get a job doing what I love but what happens when you love selling cars? I guess I was immoral and non-Christian...anyway I got lucky since then and don't have to sell cars any more although there are times I miss it, however not after 6PM during the week and on Saturdays.
  • eeeoeeeo Member Posts: 9
    In Texas I think the $4500 is considered trade-in value and that amount is not taxed...correct me if I'm wrong.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I haven't lived in Texas in over a decade so I got no idea. I visit occasionaly but I don't know how the credit was considered in that state. Most states considered it a rebate and therefore taxable.

    Georgia was I think an exception.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >is actually 16%

    Thank you.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    I remember calling him once a few years ago when I was a car salesman...he told me to get a job doing what I love but what happens when you love selling cars? I guess I was immoral and non-Christian

    Generally it is better not to finance, but there are always exceptions to the rule.

    Selling cars does not have to be either immoral or non Christian. Not everything is black or white. How about starting a used car business and having your business model be helping people get into cars that they can really afford rather than how much of a loan they can get? I think after that reputation is established, business would flourish.
  • eeeoeeeo Member Posts: 9
    Actually I did think about that...however most of my potential inventory is on the way to the crusher lol...
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/funds/2009-08-26-pension-fund-political-dona- tions_N.htm

    I wonder if they did a similar investigation of how much the D3 and its cohorts donated to politicians, who then turned around and voted for bailout money for the D3, what they would find. And if you included the thousands of auto dealers and NADA donations, what would you find? I bet you'd find 1 behind washing the other! :(
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    If it hasn't been said before then I'll say it or I'll add my .02. This DaveRamsey guy is a moron. He has no clue whatsoever about what he's writing. ZERO.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Love the idea. Plenty of old cars out there still......
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I agree. Also buying new (and financing) is fine if folks can truly afford it. Too many people haggle over $100 on the purchase of a car to get to a certain payment. If you are cutting it that close, you really need to re-think buying a new car.

    My household rule is no more than one car payment and all cars go to 100k miles....unless we hate the car (2001 Chevy Malibu).
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    I'll have to disagree with you on this. When he discusses personal finance, he's fine. Once he strays away from this topic, he gets hard to handle.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    they say $4500 C4C rebates are income in the eyes of the Fed gov.
    Does this suck? raise the base price at start of C4C by $650 (cobalt), try to apply sales tax to the rebate (7% of 4500), charge a fee to file paperwork, and now 25% to 31% of the 4500 is due on your federal income tax. I hope the clunker wasn't worth $3800 in trade in without C4C. That would mean 400 more sales tax, 650 more price and 1125 more income tax meaning if it was worth 2225 trade-in B4 C4C you'd have done just as well when inventories were high and selection was much better.

    Then to top it off, Toyota lands most C4C sales and gets biggest chunk of $3 Billion in sales and then decides to close the only UAW plant it had, citing a 1981 plant as too aged. reverse payback?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Either Fox News is wrong or you misheard them. The law specifically says that consumers aren't responsible for paying federal income tax on the amount of the voucher.

    You can look it up at the CARS site:

    "Is the credit subject to being taxed as income to the consumers that participate in the program?

    NO. The CARS Act expressly provides that the credit is not income for the consumer."

    link

    State taxes are handled differently depending on what state your are in.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No need for a conspiracy. The C4C program was blatantly presented as a gift to the auto industry.

    Regarding "going into debt" for new cars, unless I am losing my memory here---didn't someone post some data about the demographics of those who bought new cars under C4C, and weren't these buyers in a pretty high income bracket?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >State taxes are handled differently depending on what state your are in.

    http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail6162.cfm?Id=0,89084

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    NO. The CARS Act expressly provides that the credit is not income for the consumer."

    That is according to NHTSA. Not the IRS. There could be a battle brewing within the different agencies. My guess is someone will have to pay the tax on that gift. It may be the dealers, manufacturers or the consumers. We will know more when the 2009 tax code comes out. There were several errors on the CARS website. Was this an interpretation by a low level Civil Servant.
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