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Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

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Comments

  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The Monte Carlo SS wasn't bad looking - probably because the shorter rear window didn't make it look like an overgrown hatchback (or 1980s Nash Airflyte). The front is better looking, too.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    For the times, the 1981 Grand Prix was a fairly HOT RIDE.

    My best friend got one that year, which was our senior year in high school.

    The seats were plush, the engine was hot-rod-ISH ( we had it up to 140 MPH once - SHHHH!! ) and it was a very nice and respected ride for high school and college kids in 1981.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "... we had it up to 140 MPH once..."

    Given the anemic engines in '81, that must have been kph.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    the trunk is open in that picture. at first i thought it was some kind of rear wing or something.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    the models my wife is looking at hasn't changed in 2 or 3 years. we could say it's pre owned. :)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I'm a little unsure on engines, but I think for 1981, they actually dropped the 301 and 305 V-8's in the Grand Prix, leaving you with just the 231 V-6, 265 V-8, or 252 V-6. I think the V-6 actually had the most hp, at 125. :blush: Well okay, you could get a 350 in them, but it was a Diesel! :sick:

    I thought the '81-87 Grand Prix was a sharp looking car, but it just wasn't that popular with the public. Whatever magic the earlier models had, this one lost it fast. I think sales peaked around 150,000 in 1981, which was actually better than 1980. But they dropped to around 90K for '82, and went downhill from there, bottoming out around 16,000 for 1987.

    The Cutlass Supreme and Buick Regal were still hot sellers in that timeframe, although the Monte Carlo had a rough spat in '82-83. Eventually though, these cars all just got outmoded, and the love affair with personal luxury coupes started to wane.

    A 1985-87 Grand Prix wouldn't be a bad car with the Chevy 305. I had a 1986 Monte Carlo with that setup, and it was a good car. Decent blend of power and economy...for the time, at least.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, let me tell you this story in more detail.

    It was June 6, 1981. We were coming back from a Judas Priest concert in Odessa TX. ( I know the date because I still have the concert stub and posted it on Facebook recently. $8.50 General Admission.)

    The speedo on the Grand Prix maxed at 140. There is a town about 40 miles from our hometown, the last real town before we hit our fair town.

    Right outside the city limits of that town, about 40 miles from home, my friend asked me if I was in a hurry to get home. I said sure.

    He floored it, and pegged it, and never let up until we were about 2 miles out of our hometown.

    Whatever the max speed REALLY was, if it was not the advertised 140, we hit it for about 38 miles.

    Oh the idiocy of youth !!!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Probably about 115-118. Still freakin' dangerous for that sofa you were driving. :P
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Oh the idiocy of youth !!!

    Nowadays, photo radar would nab you. :D

    My wife noticed the clunker proposal in the news today and she doesn't pay much attention to car news. So the idea may be gaining traction.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Larsb, which engine did that '81 Grand Prix have? I don't doubt that you enjoyed a really fast ride over many miles, but my explanation for what you experienced is that the speedometer was off. Heck, anything over 100 mph would feel darned fast, especially if it was at night.

    Shifty, even 115-118 mph sounds a little optimistic to me for an '81 GM, unless it was a Corvette, Camaro or Trans-Am.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My '82 would do 118 mph easy....of course that was a Porsche 928...does that make a difference?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I couldn't see a 1981 speedometer even going to 140 mph! In those days, I think all speedometers, in domestic cars at least, only went to 85 mph, although police cars usually went to 125. But even performance cars, like the Corvette, only had an 85 mph speedo IIRC. Now, on an 85 mph speedo, the kph usually tops out at 140...although on some Mopars I've seen it listed at 137.

    I have a Mopar police car book that covers the years 1979-94. In 1981, even the best police cars only topped out at around 110-115 mph. The fastest was a Crown Vic with a 351-2bbl, at 116.4 mph, and next up was a Diplomat with a 318-4bbl, at 116.3 mph.

    In 1982, when the CHP started using Mustangs, Motortrend got one to top out at 128 mph. That was the fastest police car since the 1978 Dodge Monaco, which got up to 133 mph, according to the Michigan State Police.

    Even the LT1 Caprice of 1994, the one with the 260 hp Impala SS engine, only topped out at 141.2 mph.

    So, I kinda doubt a 1981 Grand Prix could hit 140 mph. Maybe on a long enough downhill run? I mean, I got a 1991 Civic rental up to 115 once, but I had a several mile downhill stretch of interstate out in California to do it!
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "...does that make a difference?"

    It just might, but, then, the GP trumps the Porsche in displacement, and you know the old saying, "there's no substitute for displacement."
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Your information regarding top speed capabilities is in sync with my comments. The speedometer information you provided is also very relevant to this discussion.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Here's a 1982 Corvette speedometer. Ahh, those were the days... :sick: I'm at work right now and don't have access to that police car book, but I think it listed a 1982 Corvette as topping out around 130 mph.

    I'm actually surprised how easy, relatively speaking, ~130 mph is to attain. When FWD police cars started coming out, the Taurus with the 140 hp 3.0, which was just the old Vulcan pushrod, topped out at 129. Dodge tested a Dynasty in police setup, with their 3.8 pushrod V-6. I forget how much hp it had. I want to say around 160? Anyway, it managed to hit 128. It never went into production as a police car, although evidently some departments bought civilian models and used them for detective cars and other light duty.

    In 1993, the Michigan State Police unofficially ran an Intrepid with the 214 hp 3.5 V-6. I think it topped out at 127 mph. Kinda interesting that, with the added power, and better aerodynamics, that the Dynasty was still had a slightly higher top speed. At least, an Intrepid looks sleeker, but sometimes shapes can be deceiving.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    A 85-mph speedometer in a 'Vette? I can accept that if it's a Chevette!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    85 mph speedometers first come out? Seems like they kept downgrading speedos througout the 70's. In 1972, I think most of them still went to 120. I don't remember what my Mom's '75 LeMans went to, but my '76 goes to 100. Years ago, I remember test driving a used '78 or '79 Cutlass Supreme. It only went to 80, although there was a small hash mark for 85. Also interestingly, the 55 was not highlighted yet. I'd always thought the 85 mph speedo and the 55 highlight both came out at the same time, but evidently not. My '80 Malibu had the 55 highlight though, and an 85 mph speedo.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Swell. I spend decades getting 85 mph speedometers out of my head and here they come back.

    Oh, I hated those even in the little things I was driving back then. I cannot even imagine having one in a Vette.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    hpmctorque says, " which engine did that '81 Grand Prix have? "

    It must have had one of the two V8 options - there was a 4.3 liter and a 4.4 liter option, and thus that was why the speedo read all the way to 140 mph.

    It was probably just a marketing trick to get people to think it could go faster than 120. But the speedo did go up to 140, and I remember that because it was the first one I had ever seen that went above 120.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    It must have had one of the two V8 options - there was a 4.3 liter and a 4.4 liter option, and thus that was why the speedo read all the way to 140 mph.

    I had forgotten about the 4.4 being used briefly outside of Chevrolet. That was the Chevy 267. I think it had 125 hp. The 4.3 would've been Pontiac's 265, which had 120.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There are "theoretical" top speeds done on paper (calculating gear ratios) and then there are "observed" top speeds done with the bouncing speedometer needle and then there are "measured top speeds" done under ideal conditions (flat, no wind, LOTS of room) and then there's "real world" top speed, meaning what you are likely to achieve on a public highway without 5 miles of room to get there.

    Anyone driving an early 1990s American car at 127 mph is nuts. Maybe a cop car with HD suspension, special tires and a trained driver...well, okay...maybe....but a showroom stock car, that's a death wish. Crappy OEM tires, lots of "lift" under the front end and just one golf ball sized rock and you're dead.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I had Firebirds that had 160 MPH speedometers. A very poor design of a guage.. A better guage would be 0-90 MPH covering about 270 degrees with 0 MPH at the bottom and 60 MPH straight up. Much easier to glance at this type of speedo to check speed than a 160 speedo with very small deliniations. Anyone reckless enough to go over 90 should just peg the needle and then keep eyes strictly on the road.

    Hadn't race cars of the past had a tach set in dashboard so that rev limit rpm was straight up at 12 O'Clock position? Driver did not have to "study" guage and hand, but could quickly glance and get readout by general position of hand.

    Test drove a Honda Civic hatchback a couple years ago and liked the digital speed limit readout sitting on top of dashboard. Less distraction from driving to check speed vs usual guage in dash.

    On topic, if one merely wanted to get a new car and keep current stable of vehicles in household, could you buy a driveable old junker for a few-five hundred dollars and then get the great proposed government deal on a new car?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There are provisions to prevent this ploy---I think something like registration for at least one year prior.

    This "Clunker" label is a real misnomer. Any rebate plan should at least accomplish the task of getting rid of gross polluters and dangerous cars.

    That of course creates an interesting dilemma---people who own gross polluters and dangerous cars are hardly in a position to buy a new one, and people in a position to buy a new one usually drive used cars that are still perfectly useful. :confuse:
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    I believe that they were required for the 1977 model year. The federal regulation mandating that all speedometers stop at 85 mph was repealed in the mid-1980s, during the Reagan Administration.

    Like the 55 mph speed limit and Prohibition, it was one of the dumber laws in our nation's history.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I wonder when manufacturers moved away from those lame speedos. My memory is fuzzy, but my mom used to have a 93 Taurus back in the day, and I swear it had an 85 mph speedo. The Tempo that was in the family only went to 80! (speedo and pretty much the car, too). Thinking way back, I remember the Ciera we had also had an 85 mph speedo, and 55 had a red box outlined around it.

    Was it only for domestics? I am pretty sure V8 MB of the period have 140 or 160 on their speedos.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Anything over 80 on the Tempo would have just raised false hopes on your part.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I remember we still had the thing kicking around when I started driving, and with enough road you could peg the speedometer. It was seriously slow from 0-60, and glacially slow above that.

    Those things won't have to be retired via a clunker plan...time has done all the work needed.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,198
    Instead of turning your clunker in and buying a new car, why not just offer a bounty for old clunkers? That would put money into the pockets of people too poor to buy a new car while getting some of the old polluters off the road. Would increase the ridership for public transit too.

    I can't afford a new car but I've got some old iron rolling around my yard that I might take $3K to get rid of. :lemon:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Maybe you could convince a two car family to downsize to one car, if you could figure out how to enforce the bounty for getting a car off the road without being replaced. My wife and I could get by with one car - we've done that before for long stretches (7 years in one case).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My girl friend at the time had a 1978 Porsche 911S that would easily hit 115 MPH. I did not feel comfortable driving that fast on Alaska highways. It was dry no snow or rain. Still the trees go by very fast. I would imagine if it was maintained it is still a wonderful car.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Maybe you could convince a two car family to downsize to one car, if you could figure out how to enforce the bounty for getting a car off the road without being replaced."

    The real purpose of clunker laws isn't so much for families to reduce the number of cars they own, but to spur sales of new cars.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    ...are firming up, which generally means that new car sales will improve. If this happens, it'll weaken the argument for an artificial stimulus.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Not just firming up, but Some New Cars Now Less Expensive than Used Cars, Edmunds.com Reports.

    "Compared with new vehicles sales - which are at lows unseen in decades - the used car market is doing well," observed Edmunds.com CEO Jeremy Anwyl. "Desirable used vehicles are becoming harder to find, pushing up their prices, while today's new cars are heavily discounted. This is creating an unusual economic event: It can actually be less expensive to purchase a new car than a used car."
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I keep hearing this, and I want to know what same-class model would be cheaper new than used. I think these statements are generalizations with little real-world merit. Sure I can always buy a new Aveo cheaper than a 2-year old Accord, but that's not an apples to apples comparison.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Click through to my link and there's a chart there. I was going to post it here, but it's pretty long. It's all comparing the same make/models to each other, just different years. No cross-model comparos.

    And it's all new vs. one year old cars. No two year olds in the field.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I don't know about other parts of the country, but here in California it has been true for all Japanese Big 3 vehicles for a long time that 1-year-old models will very commonly have higher asking prices than the same model brand new. So this news isn't the big shocker to me.

    Edit...OK, I see now that the real news is that finance deals on new cars are so good that since the used 2008 has no such finance deal, the new car purchase actually saves a small amount of money over the life of the loan.

    Again, I have to ask, is that news? All the times there were 0% incentive loans available from manufacturers on their new cars, wouldn't such a purchase have saved me a bundle over a 1-year-old car bought for $2000 less and then paid for over 5 years at say 5%? I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, and we have had LOTS and LOTS of 0% APR incentives in the last 8 years.

    Bottom line: if I have cash to spend, buying used is still the less expensive option for me, even now. Being a CCBA'er, I was half hoping this would be true as it would raise my car's value for trade-in, but if it is true it is not yet reflected at KBB or other valuation websites.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "... it is not yet reflected at KBB or other valuation websites."

    From what I can tell, the website valuations are lagging.

    Unlike several months ago, new cars seem to have the value advantage over used now, in my opinion. As usual, though, YMMV.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    In his speech today, President Obama stated that he's in favor of a clunker plan. I think it would be costly and wasteful, and, in my opinion, is motivated more by political considerations than the stated purposes. Also, as I've mentioned before, it doesn't take into equation the considerable energy expended and pollution generated to scrap cars and produce new ones.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Obama also today said he will work with Congress to try to fund credits for consumers who turn in old cars and buy cleaner, more fuel-efficient automobiles.

    Programs of this kind "have been successful in boosting auto sales in a number of European countries," Obama said. The auto scrapping program is part of a larger administration effort to increase car sales and modernize manufacturers' fleets.

    In Germany, new car registrations rose 21 percent in February after the government offered consumer rebates of 2,500 euros ($3,150) to trade in vehicles that are more than nine years old for new more energy-efficient ones.

    Similar government programs have been launched in France, Spain and Italy.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20090330/ANA02/903300276/1078
    (registration link)

    I really think you fail to understand that the president's intentions here have nothing to do with trying to do something for the environment. He's adding some tidbits to the rhetoric to make the enviro-crowd feel better, but his only real intention is to spur car sales with the clunker plan, period.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    A agree with what you said about the President's motives. He's trying to satisfy the UAW and boost car sales. Of course incentives help car sales, as has happened in Germany, France and Italy, but in my opinion, these plans are wasteful and represent an inefficient use of tax payers' money.

    Also, for some people, it's not a wise financial move to increase their debt to buy a new car. Further, how fair is this plan for people who purchased a new car before today? They not only miss out on the incentive, but the value of their car drops because the supply 2009 and 2010 cars on the road will increase.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...who drive truly dangerous cars a clunker plan would work. I'm surprised how many people are risking their lives and those of others driving really dilapidated cars - bald tires, donut tires on the front wheels for extended periods, dragging exhaust systems, collapsed suspensions, broken windshields, blowing enough smoke to replicate Pittsburgh circa 1955, etc.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    dragging exhaust systems, collapsed suspensions, broken windshields, blowing enough smoke to replicate Pittsburgh circa 1955

    I thought PA had laws on the books that could ticket you for having a smashed fender? It is very rare in San Diego to see a car in the condition you describe. We do get a lot of smoke belching stake bed trucks up from Mexico. They are doing a service by hauling old tires, appliances and building materials down to Baja. :shades:

    If I were to trade a clunker on a new vehicle, it would not be a domestic. I would say the plan would be lucky to net GM 10% of the sales of efficient cars.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I thought PA had laws on the books that could ticket you for having a smashed fender? It is very rare in San Diego to see a car in the condition you describe.

    Back in college, one of my friends got busted by the campus police for driving a car that was beat-up. He had a 1977 Chrysler Cordoba that had been hit twice. The car was technically totaled because of low book value, but still more or less driveable. And fortunately, the vehicles that hit him were relatively tinny little things.

    Still, one of the crashes was enough to push one of the bumpers sideways (can't remember now if it was the front or back), to where it jutted out on the side. One of the campus cops saw it and gave him a warning. Said either get it fixed, or don't bring it back on campus or it will get ticketed. He sold it, and "graduated" to a 1978 Newport. A few years later, he saw the abandoned hulk of his Cordoba on a desolate stretch of road. Oddly enough, he saw the abandoned hulk of another one of his former cars, a 1982 Cutlass Supreme sedan, in almost the same place a few years later!

    I know you can get a ticket if you have a headlight, taillight, turn signal, etc smashed, but I don't know about other types of damage. I guess if a real cop (versus a campus cop) saw a car part hanging off like it could come loose at any moment, or a bumper jutting out to where it could snag another car or pedestrian, he could probably issue some kind of ticket for a safety violation.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    ...who drive truly dangerous cars a clunker plan would work. I'm surprised how many people are risking their lives and those of others driving really dilapidated cars - bald tires, donut tires on the front wheels for extended periods, dragging exhaust systems, collapsed suspensions, broken windshields, blowing enough smoke to replicate Pittsburgh circa 1955, etc.

    For the most part, there are two types of people who drive cars like that.

    1) People who can't afford anything better. Giving these people $3,000 or whatever towards a new car, with the hopes of getting their death trap off the road, is pretty senseless, because the chances are they're still not going to be able to afford the monthly payment and insurance on a newer car.

    2) People who can afford something better, but are just too cheap. They often like driving cars like this because they feel like they're beating the system. They get a perverse sort of jolly out of saving money by not buying a newer, better car...or even maintaining their current ride. They just fail to see that they're endangering their own life in the process. Giving someone like this $3,000 or whatever towards a new car would be pointless as well, because they'd look beyond that initial incentive, and see the cost of monthly payments, insurance, etc.

    Most other people, who are in between, would probably never let their car get to the point that it was dangerous, to begin with. They might let it get to the point that it's a bit ratty looking, but it would still be fundamentally safe. It's not like you'd have to start repeating Psalm 23 out of the Bible every time you take it for a drive. Although I might have to, because I just got new license plates for my truck and the number has a "666" in it! :surprise:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That's funny! I heard a story where a woman got her license plate and it read SOW-265. The funny thing was the number was very close to her weight!!! :P
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Speaking of license plates, when I got my Celica last year I went over to the DMV and they handed me plates that said WTF 34. If I'd asked for that they wouldn't have given it to me! Before I got the plates I thought I might put a vanity plate on it but this was better than anything I could do.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    In his speech today, President Obama stated that he's in favor of a clunker plan. I think it would be costly and wasteful, and, in my opinion, is motivated more by political considerations than the stated purposes. Also, as I've mentioned before, it doesn't take into equation the considerable energy expended and pollution generated to scrap cars and produce new ones.

    Forget about scrapping. That would be wasteful.

    Our genius President needs to put 2 and 2 together, think out of the box so to speak.

    Recall when he said in primaries that he would talk to Castro (either one) of Cuba without pre-conditions. Maybe now is the time to start talks.

    If Cuba has dollars and/or commodities the U.S. can use, Obama could strike a deal with present Castro to sell and ship all of the 8-10+ year old trade-ins (don't refer to them as clunkers to Castro) to Cuba. The Cuban people can then replace their true clunkers from the 50's and 60's with more current 80's and 90's models from us. And, the Obama/Castro deal would also set up mechanisms for our parts suppliers/manufacturers to sell parts to Cuba for the next 30-40 years.

    This is a win-win proposition for both U.S. and Cuba. Somebody tell Rahm.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You'd have to face the political wrath of the Miami Cubans however.

    But, given Miami's financial woes, they may be ready to bend....
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "... dilapidated cars - bald tires, donut tires on the front wheels for extended periods, dragging exhaust systems, collapsed suspensions, broken windshields, blowing enough smoke..."

    Clearly, cars in this condition should not be driven. I favor using current inspection laws and ticketing over a clunker plan for addressing these hazards because the latter will also remove perfectly safe and usable cars - the kind we own - from circulation. It favors the relatively few who can take advantage of this type of program over the many (current and future taxpayers).
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I believe the reason why there are such dilapidated vehicles on the road is because some unscrupulous mechanics sell inspection stickers to drivers of these vehicles.
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