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Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    boy, a picture is worth a thousand words. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    IIRC the Russians benchmarked a 53 Ford when they designed that one.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    I think the U.S. still leads in effective HVAC, because of our climate. But the lead isn't huge, like it was in the 1960s.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, our AC was always superior to anyone's up into the 1990s. Even very early ACs I've driven, (19040s) were remarkably good. Also our automatic transmissions--but to be fair, most foreign automakers weren't even interested in offering them to customers in the 1950s and 60s, and when they did, they used less than wonderful American units like Borg Warner, which I guess they could get a lot cheaper than GM units. Of course, Rolls Royce used GM units for many years. It was about the only reliable part on the car.

    Nowadays we have the phenomenon of "technology status" where the car buyers wants the latest and greatest. He wants an OHC engine even if it works little better than a GM pushrod, but nonetheless he's aware that GM uses old tech.

    American automakers are not thought of as innovative anymore, which is really a disadvantage in domestic marketing--although it might be advantageous for emerging markets like Africa and China.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    did any of the various clunker plans ever get beyond the initial stages of being introduced as bills? I sure haven't seen any further mention of any of them for more than a month now.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • drugglesdruggles Member Posts: 6
    The clunker plan did not make it into the Stimulus Package. A clunker plan in Germany has led to a recent 21% increase in new vehicle sales. Wonder if they are on to something? I have not been a supporter of a clunker plan but I think I'm coming around.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    has been given a reprieve. It's back from the mechanic now. New a/c compressor and other odds and ends. It turns out the old compressor pretty much blew up and sent shrapnel through the whole system. Total repair came in at $1301.79. I had a gut feeling it would be over $1000, so I'm not complaining.

    So, as long as I don't have to put any more major money into it this year, I'll be happy. Of course, the year is young. :surprise:
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Ouch! I had a $1,700 bill on the Accord maybe two years ago but that was the timing belt, a set of pads and rotors and a ton of catching up on maintenance. I was going to declare the mechanic as a dependent on my taxes that year...

    I remember someone telling me I was nuts to put that much in a car with 100K but it's better than two years down the road with nothing but oil changes and now it's around 160K so I'd have to say it was worth it. My wife uses it as her primary now and puts on a ton of work miles. Between the fact there's no point in getting a new car when you're gonna roll that kid of mileage on it and that she has it more or less set up as her traveling office I imagine I'll have it quite some time.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I remember someone telling me I was nuts to put that much in a car with 100K but it's better than two years down the road with nothing but oil changes and now it's around 160K so I'd have to say it was worth it.

    Funny, my mechanic made a similar comment about a year ago, when the car started stalling out at random. He was trying to find cheap fixes for it, but I told him it was probably either the crankshaft position sensor, camshaft position sensor, or both. A couple of guys in the Dodge Intrepid forum here on Edmund's pointed me in that direction. Well, he asked me if I really wanted to spend that kind of money on a car this old. Turns out, it was only around $525, to do them both. I guess I shouldn't say "only", and make it sound like I can just throw 500 bucks around at the drop of a hat, but it sure beats the hell out of a car payment. And that was almost a year ago, and the car really didn't need anything else...until the a/c compressor blew, that is!

    Back in 2007, when I was using another repair shop, they found that the cooling lines that run from the transmission to the radiator were leaking, and questioned me on whether I really wanted to spend the money to get them fixed! It was a slow leak, but the only available parts were OEM Mopar, and not exactly cheap. Still I figure it was cheaper to fix those leaks than it was to risk the leak getting worse, and end up losing the transmission! 2007 was an expensive year for the Intrepid; in the end, I think I sunk around $2,000 total into it. Still, a heckuva lot cheaper than a new car payment!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My rule of thumb is that if you are driving a car:

    a) worth less than $5000

    b) has cost you more than $150 in repairs per month averaged out over 24 months

    then

    c) you need another car.

    My reasoning is:

    a)) this is about 1/2 a car payment

    b) it's only going to get worse
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    mine hasn't needed any repairs yet at 116K, but the second $500 repair that comes along will end my time with it. Maybe the first, I dunno. Once you get to 150K, certainly, you had better love the thing to keep repairing it, as that expense can really creep up on you fast.

    But it's an '02 and makes 40 mpg, so I don't qualify under any of the clunker proposals!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Our LS400 is now 20 years old and still runs like a top. I would not sell it for $5000 cash. It cost me $1100 in 2007 and a new battery in 2008. Still gets 18 MPG though it is premium gas. What to do. We may give it to a relative that is in need. I cannot see a clunker plan working for me. It hurts my back every time I get out of the thing. I hate sedans. I would like to get some serious miles on it before we get rid of it. Just turned over 97,000.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I just did the math, and if I go back 24 months, covering the 3/11/07-3/11/09 period, I'm currently at around $185 per month, for everything except gas/insurance. Now when you say "repairs", do you mean repairs AND maintenance, or just unscheduled repairs? My $185 figure is literally everything except gas/insurance. So it includes even miscellaneous crap like emissions test fees, registration, etc.

    And if the car doesn't cost me anything more until after April 19 (I sunk $1053 into it on April 19, 2007, when they did the front brakes, coolant, hoses, transmission lines, spark plugs, and some suspension work), then my 24-month period drops down to $130 per month. :shades:

    I guess my attitude with the thing is that if I got rid of it and got a new/newer car, I'd probably be out at least $2,000 right then and there, and guaranteed to pay several hundred $ per month for 4-5 years. But instead I sunk $1300 into it, and there's a good chance that the car won't need anything else for the rest of the year, other than adding a quart of oil every once in awhile.

    Now if the car got to the point that it was breaking down and leaving me stranded every month, that would be a different story. But in the 144,600 miles I've had the car, it's technically only left me stranded once. I say technically, because while I had to get a ride home, the thing did start, reluctantly, the next day, and I was able to drive it to the mechanic. That was when he replaced the crankshaft and camshaft position sensors.

    And I guess if I had a long commute or did a lot of long distance driving, I might be more tempted to get a newer car.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    On that rule for fixing old cars, clunkers - it all depends on whether the car is an American or Japanese brand. If American, probably not. If a Honda, Toyota, then it probably is wise to put money into it.

    My example: We had a 10-year old Honda Accord with 217K miles and the trans went out. Everything else about the car was fine and it was in good shape cosmetically and mechanically. Spent about $2K on a rebuilt Honda trans and car easily went to 247K miles until we sold it to a private party through a newspaper want-ad.

    On an American brand car, such as Dodge minivan, that if we had and it needed trans at say 70K miles, I would dump the car. Very hypothetical and would likely have not purchased it to begin with.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    An occassional $1,000 repair is still cheaper than financing a new car for the next 3 - 5 years.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I really wanted to spend the money to get them fixed! It was a slow leak, but the only available parts were OEM Mopar, and not exactly cheap.

    Really? They couldn't bend the tubing themselves using the old ones as a template?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If my Park Ave died at work, I could easily walk home, take the bus, or get a ride from somebody. The only money I've really spent on the Park Ave this past year is for front brake pads and rotors and oil changes. The previous year it was rear brake shoes and tires and oil changes. I had to replace the driver's door window regulator three years ago.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Didn't you have to get your a/c and alternator repaired a couple years back on that Park Ave, Lemko?

    If everything goes according to plan, the only additional money I should have to put into the Intrepid anytime soon will be a transmission service around 150,000 miles, which at the rate that car's going will probably be late this year. It needed new rear brakes at 51K and 102K, so when it goes in for the tranny service, I'll probably have him check the rear brakes to see if they're close.

    The front brakes were replaced at 39K, 69K, 99K, and 130K. I put cheap pads on myself at 39/69/99K, but had the mechanic do it at 130K, and he used OEM parts, so I guess there's a good chance I might get around 40K or more out of them, instead of the 30K I'd been getting with the cheap pads. Heck, I might get more than that, as that initial 39K miles represented a lot of stop-and-go pizza delivery driving.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I had the A/C recharged and with the R-12 Freon too! Ice cold - $99!
    I put the alternator in myself.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    How much do alternators cost for American cars? I assume there was an aftermarket part available?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    My rule sort of presumes a constant drain, not one big repair that averages out to $150 a month.

    Also my plan presumes that you can sell your clunker and use that as a down payment on the new car. Doing that, you could probably finance about a $20,000 car for $300, more or less, and with all the rebates and incentives you might do better than that these days.

    Remember that many new cars have little or no maintenance costs during their warranty, so for at least 3 years you aren't going to spend very much if anything at all. Maybe $10-$20 a month or so.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Bought it at AutoZone for $130.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's not necessarily a good thing, but I wish you luck with it.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    This is just another self-serving plan, with flawed, one-sided arguments regarding how it would benefit the U.S. economy, the environment and energy independence, in my opinion. Since your tax money would pay for this plan, what are your thoughts?

    Bill unveiled to pay cash for trading in old clunkers
    BY JUSTIN HYDE • FREE PRESS WASHINGTON STAFF • March 18, 2009

    "WASHINGTON -- A 'cash for clunkers' bill in Congress that would pay vehicle owners to trade in old models for new, fuel-efficient ones won support Tuesday from Detroit automakers and the UAW, but drew immediate rebuke from foreign automakers for excluding models not built in North America.

    The hurdles to passing any such program through Congress remain formidable, with automakers, environmental groups and dealers all holding different views on how such a plan should work. Yet most of the industry's troubles can be traced to slumping auto sales of about 10 million vehicles a year, which aren't expect to rebound until next year at the earliest.

    General Motors Corp. Chairman Rick Wagoner said Tuesday that such plans could have a huge impact, citing ones in Germany and Brazil that boosted sales last month while the rest of the world's auto industry struggled.

    'We do see some well-thought-out programs, and it would be very helpful to do that in the United States,' Wagoner said.

    The bill unveiled by Rep. Betty Sutton, D-Ohio, would offer $3,000 to $7,500 to owners of vehicles at least 8 years old to buy more fuel-efficient models. Purchasers of vehicles with the best miles-per-gallon ratings would get the best deals.

    The program would apply only to new vehicles built in North America, with cars having to hit at least 27 miles per gallon on the highway if built in the United States and 30 m.p.g. if built in Canada or Mexico. Truck models would have to make 24 m.p.g. on the highway.

    The old vehicles traded in under the program would have to be crushed or recycled. And in a nod to plug-in hybrids such as the Chevrolet Volt, the bill would offer a $7,500 voucher toward any U.S.-made vehicle that garners 100 m.p.g.

    All the new vehicles would have to carry sticker prices less than $35,000.

    GM spokesman Kerry Christopher said the Sutton bill was a good starting point for a scrappage plan. Ford Motor Co. said in a statement that the bill was 'a win-win-win for consumers, the environment and energy independence,' while Chrysler LLC said it was generally in favor of the idea.

    UAW Legislative Director Alan Reuther said the plan 'would help to stimulate auto sales, and thus would help support jobs for American workers in the auto industry.'

    But Toyota Motor Co. spokeswoman Martha Voss said the plan would not cover the most fuel-efficient model on the market -- the Toyota Prius hybrid, which is built in Japan.

    The plan 'also runs counter to Toyota's long-standing support of free trade,' she said."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would say Mexico would be the biggest winner in that plan.

    The Jetta Diesel and Fusion Hybrid both built in Mexico. What else built in NA comes close mileage wise? I would not count on the Volt getting a 100 MPG rating. The initial rating was around 50 MPG as the engine has to run for their test to work. Like with the diesel tests, the one size fits all EPA test, will not be complimentary for the plug-in hybrids. Some of the Camry hybrids are built here in the USA.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    The premise that pollution will be reduced when a car is scrapped prematurely for each new car sold, under a clunker plan, doesn't take into consideration all the energy required to, (1) recycle the old car and, (2) produce the new car, from extracting and transporting the ore to the mills to transporting the car to the dealers to test drives by prospective customers, and more. These and other factors are also conveniently left out of the energy independence equation, to make clunker plans more politically appealing. In fact, I don't know if any attempt has even been made to measure these factors.

    As I see it, clunker plans are just another form of pork.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    despite touting fuel efficiency, the bill would exclude most of the highest-mpg models on the market? Except the two gagrice mentioned, of course, and the Camry hybrid.

    But the Aveo? Built in Korea. Yaris? Built in Japan. Fit? Built in Japan. Mini Cooper? Built in England.

    At least the Corolla and Civic would be eligible.

    I would agree with other posters that on limited-run models like Jetta diesel and Fusion hybrid, dealers would just see the voucher as incentive not to offer discounts, in fact to offer mark-ups instead. They will see the buyer's "discount" as coming from the government.

    I think that in trying to keep all interested parties (auto industry, environmentalists, dealers, taxpayers) happy, the clunker plan inevitably ends up satisfying nobody.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I agree with both of You. Another ill conceived plan out of an inept Congress. I would love to get a big check for trading our 1990 LS400. I would not like to see it crushed. It runs great and still gets 18.5 MPG in town. Passes smog with flying colors. I'll just keep driving it and dumping the savings in the bank.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    what set of numbers they plan on using, when they say 24 mpg highway for trucks, 27 mpg for US-built cars, and 30 mpg for Mexico/Canada-built cars?

    If they're basing that on the same raw numbers used to calculate CAFE averages, then it might not be that hard to attain. For instance, my 2000 Intrepid is rated at 18/27, using today's EPA calculations. But when it was built, it was rated 20/29, according to the window sticker. However, I looked up the raw numbers one day, and it's actually something like 24/37!

    Any truck that's currently highway EPA-rated at 20 mpg or higher would easily break 24 in raw numbers. And just about any car made today will break 27 or even 30 mpg highway, in raw numbers. Unless you go for something like a Viper, or perhaps a 300C or Charger with the 6.1 Hemi.

    Don't they make Accords, Camrys, and Altimas in the United States? Even going by the window sticker, any 4-cyl version of those would break 27 mpg on the highway. I think even the 6-cyl models are above that.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, that's part of the problem with the plan too - it will probably spur more sales of foreign-brand cars made in America than it will spur sales for the domestics. And isn't part of the purpose of the plan to help the domestics pick up the pieces?

    Yes, Camry, Accord, Altima, Civic, and Corolla - the top five best-selling cars in the U.S. (not in that order) - are all made in America and would qualify under this plan.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Congress is inhaling fumes again. We haven't elected people fit to lead since 1940 IMO.

    We need an entirely new electoral gene pool.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Ditto! I'd like a big check for my 1988 Buick Park Ave, but I'd cry more profusely than watching a video of my own future death if I saw it get crushed.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    As I see it, clunker plans are just another form of pork.

    Yeah, but this time it could be my pig that gets fatter. I need a new ride. :shades:

    I'm interested in the tax credit for upgrading my heat pump too.

    Do you guys give away Green or S&H Stamps btw?
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    S&H ARE (were?) green stamps. SSS were blue stamps....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Oh of course - and they are still around, sort of: S&H greenpoints.

    The other one we had were Quality Stamps.

    You could probably get a '67 Ford Falcon with 4,000 books of them.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Wow. I remember green points when they first started maybe 10 year ago or more. I guess it's still working.

    Out this way we also had Plaid stamps. you went to Plaidland to redeem them.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Who was the guy who sang "Green Stamps" to the tune of Greensleeves?

    I heard there's a big flap on the radio about very rich people applying for and getting foord food stamps because they don't count your assets.

    The world's gone mad I tell you!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We need an entirely new electoral gene pool.

    There is something you and I are in 100% agreement. Scary heh?

    I would clean out Arnold and the bunch in Sacramento also..

    If they used the EPA numbers and bought a PU truck there are not many with 24 MPG highway. No V6 models? It is really hard to see what they think this will do.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You don't really have to be too bright to run for office these days.

    Junking perfectly good cars----that's swell, that's just swell.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Not true, foodstamps have a $2000 limit on assets. They just don't count the home you live in or any of your cars. Everything in the bank including your retirement and investments counts.

    So will the clunker plan allow you to trade in an old but fuel-efficient car (Suzuki Swift for example) for a new but less fuel-efficient car (a new Camry 4-cylinder, for instance)? If so, doesn't seem like there's much point in THAT.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    GENERALLY not true, but true in Warren County Ohio at least. They have some loophole so that this one couple for instance has home, cars, and $80K in the bank and getting $500 a month stamps. Gee you'd think they'd go get a room mate or something....

    I'm not sure this "Clunker" plan was EVER a serious proposal, the more I look at how/who presented it and how fast it disappeared.

    More like political posturing to me.....
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    the conversation about the 'clunker plan' to see if one is practical, but you still need a job to even think about buying a new car.
    my wife has the cash saved up to buy a new car, but we are gun shy, because her company is still cutting workers, and it would be awkward showing up in a new vehicle. they might think she is getting some kind of AIG bonus, :surprise:
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You could hit it with that "film spray" they use in movies to make the restored cars they hire look old! :D
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I would that one, for sure. I mean, c'mon the 80s were not that much fun.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    That Grand Prix isn't very handsome or fun...I recall someone saying that the extended rear window reminded him of a bathtub Nash.

    But I would take a 1980s Mustang GT (or LX with the 5.0 V- and manual). Those could be good, cheap fun.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'll take a Buick Grand National in a second!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not that expensive, Lem. Follow your bliss! :P We need to put some tire-burning into your life and increase your carbon footprint.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    That Grand Prix isn't very handsome or fun...I recall someone saying that the extended rear window reminded him of a bathtub Nash.

    I always thought those GP 2+2's were really awkward, too. For some stupid reason, GM used a different wraparound rear window on them than they did on the Monte SS Aerocoupe. I think the GP's window was even longer, making a correspondingly smaller decklid, which made the trunk even harder to get into. I think they only mad around 200-300 of the GP 2+2, and maybe 3500 Aerocoupe Montes. With volume that low, I don't see how using two unique rear windows made any sense. :confuse:

    Even worse, while the GP 2+2 looks like it might be in the same league as a Monte SS, Cutlass Supreme 442, or Grand National, it wasn't. It used a tame Chevy 305-4bbl with 150 hp, same as the base V-8 on a Monte Carlo or Grand Prix. At least with the Monte SS, you got 180 hp.

    I think the GP 2+2 also came fairly well-loaded, so its base price was well above what a Monte SS, 442, or even a Grand National started at.

    No wonder the thing was such a sales flop!

    In a lame effort to boost performance a bit, they put a 3.55:1 axle ratio in it, which might have been what the Monte SS used. Stock in these cars was just something like a 2.56:1. I wonder if throwing in the faster axle, but without doing any performance mods to the engine, ended up making the car any faster? Or did it just make it suck more fuel?
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    That's actually a good-looking car (no goofy rear window treatment, and the black paint scheme makes it look sinister in a good way).
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