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Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

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Comments

  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Contact the Code Pink women's group who have very good techniques (depending on one's perspective) to get on national tv at senate and house hearings and also get interviews. Probably would have to have a more expansive list of car issues than just clunker though to be effective. Like Code Pink women, would have to have people willing to go DC.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Chicago has a 10 percent sales tax. Just think of a lower income worker who would want a new, not used, basic subcompact car for $15,000. They have to come up with an extra $1,500.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,198
    "...city folks thought they needed a pick-up truck..."

    So true. You don't need a 3/4 ton pick-up to transport 2 flats of flowers home from the Home Depot.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Well maybe the food will be better in the company cafeteria."

    Oh, yeah, excellent point, and reason enough for additional billions in bailout money. Hmmm, I noticed you mentioned the food, but not the service. What, no camerieri wearing white gloves to serve that delicious food?
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Absolutely - white gloved UAW waiters....

    dave - I've got a friend up in New Hampshire which taxes cars as property. When he first moved up there he didn't change his car buying habits. NOwadays he figures everything on how cheap can he make a mile. He buys three thousand dollar or so cars and runs them forever. He's got a Volvo 850 right now that he bought used and has been running for at least five years. It helps that he has a guy who sells and services the things.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,198
    "...What would be the most effective way to make our voices heard in the congress and the senate?..."

    A brown paper bag full of money. :cry:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    i have ac at work and at home, so when i drive the car and am by myself, i never run the ac, even if it is a 100+ outside.
    my vehicles aren't clunkerish enough to take advantage of this proposal, which involves buying a replacement vehicle.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You got it. Deal with the REAL government!
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    sounds like one way around the taxes. What on an old vehicle can't be fixed for the $2k or more in sales and excise taxes to just get a new one? My cost per mile is pretty bad because I have 4 vehicles for 2 drivers and less than 20k miles a year to drive in total. Some years the excise tax alone was 20 cents a mile for my truck.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    that puts money in the hands of the consumers and still helps the auto industry. I had forgotten that long ago we actually could deduct the interest and sales taxes on a car loan. I heard that this was possibly one option Obama is talking about pushing. That would make a lot of sense as a stimulus.

    If the governments want to ensure that the savings gets spent then they need to issue Government backed Visa Gift Cards.

    Makes me start looking at what I want to add to my garage.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    BY JUSTIN HYDE • FREE PRESS WASHINGTON STAFF • February 5, 2009

    "Old-vehicle owners could get up to $10,000 toward buying a new car or truck under a plan introduced by Michigan Sen. Debbie Stabenow on Wednesday, a version of the 'cash-for-clunkers' idea geared toward domestic automakers.

    The plan from Stabenow and fellow Democrat Tom Harkin of Iowa would set aside $16 billion to take 1.5 million old vehicles to crushers. The owners would have to use the money to buy a U.S.-made model with better fuel economy than the trade-in. Only families with adjusted gross incomes below $75,000 could qualify.

    Stabenow and Harkin said the bill would be offered as an amendment to the Senate stimulus plan, which has swelled to about $900 billion. While several groups support similar ideas, there's no consensus on important details."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The owners would have to use the money to buy a U.S.-made model with better fuel economy than the trade-in.

    That can be pretty wide open. We have the BMW X5 that is less than 30% US content to the F150 that is 80% US content. Most of the vehicles built here are not the great of an improvement on mileage, unless you are dumping a 20 year old Suburban 3/4 ton. I would say the CamCords would get the most response.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    From today's Detroit Free Press...

    "WASHINGTON -- Backers of a plan to give owners of old vehicles $10,000 toward buying a new, more fuel-efficient model withdrew their plan Thursday evening in the face of growing concerns about the size of a $900-billion stimulus plan and objections from automakers."
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Any type of incentive for purchasing a new vehicle?

    Perhaps a Tax deduction for auto loan interest (like in the "old" days)? Would it be retroactive to 1/1 or is everyone eligible, even if you purchased last year or earlier.

    Sholuld a person wait to purchase? Seems counter productive to not break the stimulus pkg up into pieces and tackle the auto piece like the banks in a seperate piece. People need to understand this and how it affects their buying decision. If this drags out then no one will buy until they know if they will get any extra benefits by considering alternatives.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why do you think the automakers would object. I would trade in my wife's 1990 LS400 on a new car or SUV with $10k on the hood. Otherwise it runs great and just does not seem smart to get rid of it. We drive it several times per week. Always garaged since new.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    and objections from automakers."

    Because they know that $10,000 in the hands of the consumer does not necessarily mean we'll spend it like they want. Put it in the hands of the automakers and it will be like giving banks money. Will the consumer ever see the benefit?

    If we give $10K to people to buy cars, I will buy one in a heartbeat. If GM cannot stay in business with us buying cars again then they don't need to be in business and they don't deserve handouts.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    True, I would buy a new car even though one is not needed, if they gave me $10K to do it. I would be choosing carefully, if it had to be a model built in America. Probably a Honda Civic. ;-)

    Maybe a Subaru Outback (built in Indiana). Maybe a Cobalt SS - I hope they build that one in America.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Maybe a Cobalt SS..."

    Seriously?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nice car the Cobalt SS---gets great reviews from enthusiast magazines and beats anything in its class. Question is, will it fall apart in two years. :(
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    If only Ford still made the SVT. Their warranty claims are down 50% in 5 years! And it suited me better than the huge-hp, low-revving Cobalt SS. And they probably made it in the States? Or was it built in Hermosillo?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I'm aware of the favorable reviews on the Cobalt SS in enthusiast magazines, but was surprised by Nippononly's comment indicating that this Chevy would be among the cars he'd consider buying. This was the first time I can recall that Nippononly expressed positive interest in a GM car. However, he seems to distance himself from his earlier remarks about the Cobalt SS in his last message, in which he praises the out-of-production Ford SVT.

    I guess I'll know that Detroit has really changed when I read that Nippononly actually buys a Detroit 3 car. This isn't a criticism, since Detroit has lagged behind the import brands in the small cars that Nippononly favors. I agree with him on that.

    Circling back to the Cobalt SS, the magazine's praise the car's performance, but note that the interior falls short. It shouldn't be too difficult to remedy that deficiency. Let's hope that Chevy does it.

    I saw the Chevy Cruze, the designated replacement for the Cobalt, at the Washington Auto Show. Nice looking car, exterior and interior. Maybe it wouldn't be a wise use of scarce resources for Chevy to redo the Cobalt SS's interior when this model may be replaced by a Cruze SS in the not-too-distant future.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd consider the SS Cobalt as well, especially if there's really is going to be a substantial "clunker rebate" from the Feds and also because there's a Chevy dealer just down the street from me---I could PUSH it there probably!

    I'd fully expect to have trouble with the car and have to sort it out with 5-6 warranty visits, and I would never keep it past the warranty period.

    But hey, I am used to equating fun = trouble, and am willing to pay that price.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Surprised and not surprised by your comments on the Cobalt SS, Shifty. Somewhat surprised, since your comments regarding domestic cars, or at least the post-WWII ones, tend to be negative. I agree with many, though not all of your opinions on the domestics, perhaps because I have an emotional soft spot for some of the ones you pan. Not totally surprised, however, since you've indicated an interest in buying certain Corvettes (C-4?) and have praised the '55 Chevy, as well as the Cobalt SS. This demonstrates that you're objective, which, in addition to your knowledge, is why I respect your opinions, even when they differ from mine.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    From what I see and hear the biggest problem with the Cobalt SS is that inside it's a Cobalt. They don't have the greatest interiors.

    To me that would be an easy enough thing to fix. my guess is that with the Cruze coming they aren't putting any more money into the Cobalt.

    Count me in wit the crowd that is suddenly in the market of they are giving me $10K to be there.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Count me in wit the crowd that is suddenly in the market of they are giving me $10K to be there.

    Same here. If the gov't gave me $10K toward the purchase of a new vehicle, I'd definitely go for it. Heck, with that much incentive, I might even be inclined to get a bit more car than I would, otherwise, so that might actually go that much further towards helping out the auto makers.

    For instance, right now if I was going to get a new car, it would be something like a fairly low-level Altima or Accord, possibly a Malibu or Aura. Or maybe hold out for the 2010 Fusion. But with a $10K incentive, I'd head right to the nearest Pontiac dealer and get a G8!
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Doh! I coulda had a G8...
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    I'd head right to the nearest Pontiac dealer and get a G8!

    With the latest pricing you could get a loaded one discounted heavily for about $26,000+ and a 10K rebate making it $16. GM couldn't make enough of them. Also most credit unions will loan 100% so borrow the $32K and pay off bills and then hopefully you'll be able to take a tax break on the financing as part of the stimulus too!

    I really want a GXP but even with a $10K stimulus I'm not sure it's worth the extra.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    G8. Nice car, but you would be stimulating the Aussies not U.S? Would you get a V8 in your G8?
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I read that the '10 G8 V6 will be the direct injection version, like the Camaro, which would increase the horsepower to 300, from 263. Since the D.I. improves fuel economy, it would make the V6 more competitive with the V8. The V8 would still be faster, of course, but the V6 might be sufficient for most buyers.

    Sorry for continuing this off-topic discussion.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I've often admired any number of domestic cars in their CONCEPTION but far less in their EXECUTION.

    The Cobalt SS appeals to me by the very notion of it looking like a rental car. It would be so much fun to blow off cars costing 2X as much with all their go-fast jingle and bling.

    I think I'm still trying to find the American version of the Alfa Sprint Coupe of the 1960s. Something clean, simple, fast enough, *really fun* to drive, affordable.

    Maybe the Clunker Plan could only be applied to FUN CARS! I'd like that. A kind of forced Enthusiast's Automotive Socialism/Social Engineering.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the Cobalt SS's interior is subpar, you haven't checked out "par" lately. Any Toyota under $25K list has a crappier interior. Nothing really stands out in the low-$20s price range, for interior, except the GTI and only then if you like German austerity, which I don't particularly. People like to talk up the Mazda3, but I don't see its interior being much better than anything else around this price and I have plenty of seat time in it, as my sister has one. Lots of hard surfaces there, and those ridiculous red LEDs across the dash are annoying after just a few minutes.

    Anyway I must have been having an off five minutes when I made those Cobalt comments. The Civic at least has more soft-touch surfaces than anything else around its price, and even the SI is built in Ohio, I believe. So that is where my clunker $10K would go. And yes, I know it's not the fastest of the go-fast compacts by a long shot, but it is the best-handling and the spaceship thing has grown on me. Now if Ford DID still make the 6-speed SVT hatchback, that would be in a VERY close race with the SI. And the Outback would still be in the running if I decided to go in a different direction.

    I think they should do it - the problem with auto sales only seems to be getting worse.....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    As far as I know, the following reason hasn't been mentioned concerning why the notion of destroying old, but roadworthy cars prematurely is a bad idea: It's wasteful.

    Fact: Cars, even old, mostly depreciated ones, are assets.

    Fact: It's wasteful to destroy still-useful assets.

    Fact: We're in a severe recession.

    Opinion, grounded in reality: It's especially counter-productive to destroy useful assets during tough economic times, when resources are scarce, People disagree on this point, countering that, yes, but, replacing clunkers with new cars creates jobs. My response to that reasoning is that, sure, it does create jobs. However, it's an inefficient way to create jobs. Why? Well, you can create a lot of jobs by hiring unemployed folks to break tens of millions of windshields, and then putting breaking millions to work repairing them. You've put millions to work in this hypothetical make-work program, just to end up where you started. Yes, you say, but that's a stupid analogy, a gross exaggeration. I'll readily acknowledge that it's an exaggeration, but my point is that there's a good amount of waste in destroying still-useful vehicles, provided they comply with prevailing safety laws and pass state and local emissions tests.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Lots of hard surfaces there

    I long for the days when we had a painted metal dash like the 64 Impala hardtop I learned to drive in. A 327ci 4bbl, with Hurst 4 speed shifter, Mickey Thompson tires,Cragar mags and 2 cherry bomb fiberglass mufflers. Took my drivers test in that. It was my old mans car :o)
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    My response to that reasoning is that, sure, it does create jobs. However, it's an inefficient way to create jobs.

    I think the only thing that helps justify this program would be getting rid of low FE vehicles for higher rated ones. I don't really think that can be economically justified, but most "green" initiative cannot be economically justified. Thus combine this with something that will help the economy. Tough medicine to swallow.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    G8. Nice car, but you would be stimulating the Aussies not U.S?

    Well, wouldn't it stimulate both? It would help keep the assembly lines for the Aussies running, but it would also provide some income to GM, as well as the salesperson and dealer I bought it from. Plus, I'm sure my insurance agent will be all too happy to write the policy, which I'm sure will cost more than my Intrepid.

    Would you get a V8 in your G8?

    I had pondered this thought in the past. I've only driven both the V-6 and V-8 around the Carlisle PA fairgrounds on a test loop, so I really couldn't get a feel for what the cars were capable of. I know the V-8 would be a LOT of fun, but I'm sure even the V-6 is a lot more powerful than the little 2.7 in my Intrepid.

    With the gov't giving me $10K to help ease the transaction, I'd definitely get the V-8. I know that's not exactly a tree-hugging mentality, but I'm probably only driving 6-7,000 miles per year these days, and that includes running around in my old cars. And while the V-8 would be thirstier than my Intrepid, it would be downright Prius-esque compared to say, my 1967 Catalina!

    If I had a long commute to work, I'd probably consider the V-6.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "I long for the days when..."

    Those days, when cars either didn't have seatbelts, much less shoulder belts, or most people didn't wear them, were great, as long as you didn't get into an accident.

    Anyone who really wants a '64 Impala with a 327ci 4bbl, with Hurst 4 speed shifter, Mickey Thompson tires, Cragar mags and 2 cherry bomb fiberglass mufflers today can go out and buy one. There are still plenty of these cars, and similar ones, around. They may not be as affordable as they once were, however.

    Any idea of the going price for, say, a "3" example of the Impala described above?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    It was a lot easier to dress up those old car interiors, when you could use chrome, painted metal, brighter colors, etc. Heck, even my 1985 Silverado, IMO, has a nicer interior than most trucks today (or at least, it was when it was new...it's kinda beat up now).

    For one thing, the interior is burgundy, an interior choice that probably doesn't even exist anymore. The lower part of the dash is metal, and painted red, with the padded part being burgundy. It also has some trim parts that look like brushed aluminum but are probably just plastic. Still, it's nicer looking than that gray plastic crap they use nowadays. And the door panels are softened up somewhat with cloth inserts in the upper part, and carpeting on the lower. However, being a pickup truck, maybe those hard plastic surfaces are actually better? They'd be easier to clean and would probably last longer than carpeting, cloth, or any soft-touch material.

    Nowadays, they usually only offer 2 or 3 generic, muted color choices that can go with a wider array of exterior colors, and I think that contributes to making the interiors look more boring. I think that dullness might also make an interior look cheaper than if it had some bright, flashy color to it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Fact: It's wasteful to destroy still-useful assets.

    I agree with you. I think all that would happen is the dealers would jack the prices back up and the buyers being desperate to use the $10k would be screwed over. I would have to beat the dealer down below invoice then add the $10k onto that. Even then it would be mostly wasted. I would pay $5k in sales tax on most anything I would buy. I think it would be like most government programs a big mess. And a further erosion of the US Dollar value.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I wouldn't mind seeing all the huge, worn-out, single-driver SUVs with their killer crash bars being recycled. I think that would be a service to mankind.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "Last month the German government announced an Environmental Bonus program that provides buyers with euro2,500 ($3,225) if they scrap their old car and buy an environmentally friendly new one. The program, which has euro1.5 billion earmarked, has lead droves of people to car showrooms."

    Ford sales in Germany up 14.2 percent in Jan, helped by state's environmental bonus program (Yahoo)
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    If the gov't giving me $10K to buy a new car, I'll gladly buy bmw 335i :blush:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You mean like a 1947 Suburban? :shades:

    It has probably seen its better days if not well maintained. My Wife's grandson is driving a 70s Suburban back and forth to work every day. I think it is a diesel. Every year you stretch out that old vehicle it is your car payment times 12 in the bank. It is surprising how fast you can save enough to pay cash and screw the bankers. Instead of them screwing you.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No I meant those SUVs with those beheading devices bolted to the front bumper/grill.

    Perfect for those shopping mall trips:

    image
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Every year you stretch out that old vehicle it is your car payment times 12 in the bank. It is surprising how fast you can save enough to pay cash and screw the bankers. Instead of them screwing you.

    Ain't that the truth! I've been keeping track of my 2000 Intrepid's expenses, from the day I bought it...November 6, 1999. I made the last payment on November 24, 2004. Since then, it's cost me about $81 per month, plus gasoline and insurance.

    Now it hasn't been trouble-free. I figure I put about $450 into it in 2005, around $260 into it in 2006, $2000 in 2007, and $1100 in 2008. A lot of that, however, is maintenance stuff, that all cars need eventually anyway. Oil changes, filters, a transmission service, tires, etc.

    And it still beats the heck out of the $347.66 I had to dish out every month in payments!
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Fact: It's wasteful to destroy still-useful assets.

    Ah!, I've thought of what to do with the junkers. Thinking globally and not wanting to waste anything, we send all the 1990's junk to Cuba and let them all have 40 year newer cars than what they currently drive. Bring all those 57 Chevy's back here and sell them at the auction block to help pay for the stimulus portion of our new car $10K.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I put about $450 into it in 2005, around $260 into it in 2006, $2000 in 2007, and $1100 in 2008. A lot of that, however, is maintenance stuff, that all cars need eventually anyway

    Yes, but new cars don't. So that comparison is invalid when comparing vs a new car payment, which pays for a car under warranty costing no more than $100 or so per year for the first three years.

    Given that sales tax from car sales represents such a large portion of many local municipalities' revenue, a federal tax credit for the purpose of buying a new car can be seen as equivalent to than a huge federal giveback to states and local governments. Which maybe isn't such a bad thing if it also helps the auto industry.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    a federal tax credit for the purpose of buying a new car can be seen as equivalent to than a huge federal giveback to states and local governments. Which maybe isn't such a bad thing if it also helps the auto industry.

    Anybody know if there is anything other than the Golf Cart earmark in the Stimulus bill? Even the deduction for sales tax is not a big savings. If you buy a $25k car the tax in CA at most is $2125. If you are in the 33% bracket it would only save you $700.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    I only pay sales tax on the difference. My last trade was a $17,000 trade on a $37,000 new ride for $1200 in taxes. I would get back around $360 on this. I usually stop negotiating when I'm within $500 on a deal. $360 won't motivate me. That's about what I spend on my kids and Grandkids eating out and doing things with them each month.

    I think that putting the $360 in my pocket will get it out into the economy and as a stimulus item that might work. But as a stimulus to get me to buy a new car, that won't even enter the equation.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    CA rips you for the full amount on every new and used vehicle purchase. Our politicians love double, triple, quadruple dipping. They would tax anything down to nothing. I would have no problem trading my Sequoia on a BMW X5 or Mercedes ML diesel except for that $4000+ tax I would pay. If it was a deduction it might not be too bad. Still makes me want to leave the state and move to our place in Hawaii. Where they do not rape the retirees.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    WoW, You have a place in Hawaii as well as an (overpriced?) piece of real estate in CA? Should have dumped the CA real estate in the boom and moved to Hawaii!

    Being ignorant of Big Government in the land of liberals, with all of the taxes I've read about (sales, property, wage, etc) how in the world is CA broke??? Does it cost that much to run a "green" state?
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