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Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If your compressor seized, then the entire system is contaminated. Your repair cost will depend on whether the compressor threw metal debris into the entire system. If so, you know what that means :cry:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    It looks like Chrysler might have actually thought ahead, with regards to the Intrepid's a/c system. There's a serpentine belt that runs to everything except the a/c compressor, and then a separate belt for the compressor. So if I really had to, I guess I could just cut that belt. Wonder why they did the a/c separate like that? I wonder if there were any markets that the LH car was sold in where a/c might have still been an option?

    Anyway, brakes are good. The car has about 144,500 miles on it now. Going by previous intervals, I think the back brakes should last to around 150-155K. Front brakes, probably to around 165-170K. The tires all have plenty of tread on them, but are mis-matched. One got stolen off the car (wheel, hubcap, lugnuts, everything). One had a blowout. And another had a slow leak.

    The only maintenance I can really think of coming up anytime soon, other than oil changes, would be 150,000 miles. That's when I'll get the tranny serviced again (I like to do 30K intervals, no matter what Mopar said!), and that would probably be time for new belts as well, plus having the rear brakes checked out. At the rate I've been going, that could be another year away.

    So theoretically, even if I sink a ton of money into the a/c system, the car shouldn't need much else for awhile.

    As for that 2009 Charger, I do like those, although I think if I get another new-ish car, it's going to be something more economical like a 4-cyl Altima or Malibu/Aura. Although I have to admit, the G8 still does it for me, too! :shades:
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    since the car is so old (me too), i can say, 'back when i was younger and less mature', i put on a few serious smoke shows. NOAA was probably puzzled about the very local cloud cover. :P
    somehow the brakes and tires survived.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I think if I get another new-ish car, it's going to be something more economical like a 4-cyl Altima or Malibu/Aura

    Will it be the hybrid model? What if the government passed a clunker plan and gave you an extra $2500 towards the purchase? Would you go hybrid then? The Fusion hybrid looks pretty sweeeeet as hybrids go, and it only costs about $2500 extra....

    PS I'm pretty sure they do the A/C that way when it is optional. Are you really positive it wasn't optional on any trim of your year Intrepid, including fleet trims?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Will it be the hybrid model? What if the government passed a clunker plan and gave you an extra $2500 towards the purchase? Would you go hybrid then? The Fusion hybrid looks pretty sweeeeet as hybrids go, and it only costs about $2500 extra....

    Well I've heard that the hybrid Malibu/Aura kinda suck, as far as hybrids go, and really aren't worth the extra money over a 4-cyl. And with the 4-cyl and 6-speed automatic, I think the Malibu/Aura are actually pretty efficient. The hybrid Altima seems decent, but I don't think it's available nationwide, just in CA and a few other areas. And again, I dunno if it would be worth the extra money, although it's probably more worth it than the hybrid Aura/Malibu.

    I had totally forgotten about the Fusion. When the 2010 model comes out, I'll definitely add it to the list of cars to check out.

    As for the Intrepid, my 2000 was the base model, as cheap as it got. MSRP of $20,390, plus $560 destination. No options, although I got them to throw in a 12 disc CD changer, and about a year later I had an aftermarket Viper alarm/remote entry installed, after the car got broken into at Six Flags America.

    The Intrepid came from Canada, though. Maybe there was a Canadian trim level, where the a/c was optional?

    Oh, a month or so ago, when my coworker got his 2009 Acura TL, and I went out and looked at it, I remember there being a current-gen Civic in the parking lot. I mentioned that I kinda like them, and have toyed with the idea of one of them, the next time around. He just looked at me funny and said "Okay, who are you, and what have you done with Andre?!" And I told him no, seriously, they finally make a small car that I can fit in fairly comfortably, and he just repeated "Again, who are you, and what have you done with Andre?" :shades:

    **Edit...almost forgot to mention, that if the gov't threw $2500 at me to go get a new car, I still don't think it would be enough incentive at this point. Heck, I've even thought about the idea of, when the Intrepid finally dies, just relying on my '85 Silverado and the two '79 NYers. Plus, now that I got my '67 Catalina back from the mechanic, and had a lot of work done to it, that thing's gonna get driven a lot once the weather gets nice. The Intrepid probably won't get used much at all.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    did that guy ever pick up the dart? maybe you could just refund him the money. ;)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    The Intrepid came from Canada, though. Maybe there was a Canadian trim level, where the a/c was optional?

    Yup, I'm sure it was, and there you go then. That explains it.

    The Altima hybrid makes good mileage and is supposed to be "sporty" as midsize sedans go. But the Fusion hybrid looks like the winner if you're buying this year. Now where did I put my clunker money again.....?!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I've seen plenty of old cars with the belt for the compressor missing but running well otherwise. As for me, I'd have a hard time ignoring a siezed A/C compressor, even on my hooptie. Fortunately, my '88 Park Ave still blows cold air after all these years. I heard it would cost about $1K for such a repair in my car.

    As for you next ride, heck you could probably get something nice relatively cheap these days. That G8 GT was pretty awesome! It might be a lot more sensible for one to buy a more economical car, but someday you might feel like the [non-permissible content removed] who traded in his Hemi 'Cuda convertible for a Datsun in 1974. I have a fear that these are the last days we can still buy something truly awesome. We might be relagated to dull Priuses and Camries if GM and Mopar fall.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the Dull Prius may be the better choice after this Congress gets done with the economy and the auto industry. This picture says it all:

    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, sure, more red meat to feed to sore losers.

    It's not true and it's not funny either.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Oh it may not be true, but it was kinda funny. Put a smile on my face. :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    that's because you aren't hispanic or black or tom selleck. :P

    Let's see the same photo with auto executives in golf shirts taking vacations with bail-out money. Closer to the truth at least IMO. GM is asking for 7.7 billion as we speak and threatening to declare bankruptcy. Why don't we write to evil Nancy and tell her not to give it to them? And they can give her back the 13.4 billion they've received already as well :P

    If it weren't for government emission and fuel economy regulations, and the market protectionism procedures and threats, the Big Three would have been stone cold dead 20 years ago. The Japanese and Germans would have rolled right over them, just like the Japanese did to the British auto and motorcycle industry. Killed them in about 3 years.

    Once the Big Three gets into synch with some kind of reality, bad cartoons like this won't make sense to them either. Their problem, really, is that they want it to be 1964 again.

    So do I, but it can't happen. Those days are gone. So what do you do?

    What you do is gear up for the New World of 2009 or you perish. Sitting around whining isn't going to save the company.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    The UAW has also been pushing for the bailout. UAW head Ron Gettelfinger was seated at that table with the CEOs during the Congressional hearings.

    Why?

    Because the union isn't about to take its chances with bankruptcy court any more than the bondholders, dealers or executives are. The UAW wants taxpayers to maintain the current level of pay and benefits. The union has been pushing as hard for the bailout as management has been.

    I would disagree with the effect of the Clean Air Actand CAFE regulations. They didn't delay the Big Three's fall. The Clean Air Act didn't have an effect one way or another. It didn't help the companies, but it didn't unfairly handicap them, either (all companies had to meet the same standards).

    CAFE merely proved that it's possible to meet government regulations and produce vehicles that range from mediocre to lousy.

    If anything, CAFE hurt the companies in the long run, because the standards forbid the car companies from averaging imported models from other countries with the rest of the fleet to meet the standards.

    As a result, the domestics were forced to maintain some production of small cars here, but they couldn't make money off of them. But since they were required to maintain some production of small cars here (to boost the fleet averages), the UAW had very little inclination to make the necessary changes in the contract that would make small car production at least marginally profitable. At least, not until it was too late...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the government should either nationalize them or let them fail. Pouring this money into them just never gets us (you and me, taxpayers) off the hook.

    I mean, who I am? Some kind of genius? Prophet? No, I'm just an ordinary guy who's been looking at the Big Three for the past few years, and seeing a train wreck about to happen.

    Their bankruptcy seemed inevitable to me at any rate as far back as 2006. Most of us knew the Daimler-Chrysler deal was a mistake. We knew the Big 2.5 lost the hybrid race out of the gate. We saw the Consumer Reports et al ratings. We all read the road tests in the auto mags.

    Why is all this a surprise to anyone all of a sudden?
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    I think it's a surprise to the general public because they haven't followed this story very closely. Plus, when the company's were profitable earlier in the decade, most of the profits were coming from their finance arms, not the production and sale of vehicles. But the news stories didn't make that distinction until about the sixth paragraph, so most people only saw a headline that trumpeted GM (or Ford) reporting a profit, without an explanation of just which units were generating the profits (and which units were generating the losses).

    As for the enthusiast community - fans of particular companies have a way of explaining away bad news (or mounting quarterly losses) that borders on delusional.

    As for that satire ad - somehow, the Village People came to mind first, not Tom Selleck. For what it's worth.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    that ad borders on delusional--it's so out of touch with the real causes. You might as well blame Elvis.

    Fact is, there are BAD consequences no matter which way you field the problem. You can take the Coolidge approach or the FDR approach and each one makes very heavy waves.

    Hey I like the Village People! :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, if we're going to the Soviet model of auto manufacturing, I'd like one of these awesome Packard knockoffs!

    image
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Their problem, really, is that they want it to be 1964 again

    Heck, so do I! I can look forward to that awesome Pontiac GTO I've heard rumors about! Heck, in fact ALL of GM's 1964 offerings are exponenentially more desirable than ALL of today's manufacturers. I'm afraid the automobile is morphing into just another anonymous appliance like a toaster or can opener. It doesn't matter whose car you buy like it doesn't matter whose toaster you buy.

    "Do you wanna buy a Sunbeam, Rival, Proctor-Silex, or GE toaster?" :confuse:

    "Does it matter?" :(
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the world changes. You can't ride a horse in a shopping mall either and you can't burn your trash in the backyard and you can't go turkey hunting in city limits, blah blah.....and you can't drive a brand-new gross polluter with no seat belts, no air bags and pointy little spears on the dashboard aimed at your chest.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    I have nothing against the Village People.

    Or Tom Selleck.

    Or even goofy looking electric cars.

    Although polyester pants and open-neck shirts really were a blight upon the landscape.

    As for change - I still get excited about new cars. What used to get people excited - annual facelifts - went away because of proliferating model lines (no car company, even Toyota, can facelift every model annually) and shifting customer concerns (better durability, superior panel fit and paint application, more safety features, less pollution, increased control of noise, vibration and harshness). But I still look forward to auto show introductions and the new vehicles arriving at the local dealer.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Oh, sure, more red meat to feed to sore losers.

    What the picture depicts is how our Congress and Automakers are both inept at doing their job very well. How you managed to inject racism is beyond me. So how is this. If given the opportunity this is the likely design the 111th Congress would come up with for a car for the masses:

    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's pointless and sophomoric and has nothing to do with the problem. It's not even remotely in touch with reality. Not a good way to avoid extinction.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not a good way to avoid extinction.

    Extinction of WHOM? Reality is the likes of Al Gore and some of his lacky followers in our Congress would take your car away from you. His early writings lamented the invention of the Internal Combustion engine. Though I note he has no problem riding around in vehicles using those horrid devices. Or using said engines to propel his yacht. My biggest problem is with the hypocrisy in the Environmental ranks. When I see a 1970s Honda cruising down by the beach with a save the planet bumper sticker and smoke billowing from the exhaust, I question their commitment to saving the planet.

    In looking over my short 65 years on the Planet I cannot see much improvement by our US Congress. The current being the worst ever. That is a shared opinion with 90% of American citizens. They are maintaining a strong 10% approval rating last I checked. So what have they done that makes you feel that they could run an auto manufacturing company profitably? That being the bottom line of this conversation.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Bah, we all know you are still bitter the sheeple swooned over Messiah and Babbler instead of Geezer and Dingbat. Get over it :P

    What would the neocon GOP vehicle look like? A Chinese made 10mpg GMC Yukon clone? Financed for 84 months with proceeds going to an offshore holding company to benefit the top half of one percent?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would not trust a politician in Congress on either side of the aisle designing a vehicle of any sort. I am not sure what this has to do with the Presidency. At this point he seems to be an non entity. Just going along fat, dumb and happy to be living in the White House. NO PORK OR EARMARKS during my Presidency. How's 9000 earmarks in the current spending bill due to be signed unless Obama suddenly remembers his campaign promise.

    So where is the Clunker bill that was talked about? Lost in the Trillions of additional debt?

    PS
    If Obama goes after all those offshore accounts avoiding paying taxes. He will get a BIG atta boy from me.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    This discussion is getting too surreal.

    Back to cars, please? Back to reality?

    WHAT are some ideas to revive the American Auto Industry?
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    The industry in general needs a total remake. From Toyota to Chrysler they need a shock like you get from electric paddles in a emergency room. The domestics need to find a way out of the UAW strangle hold. A clunker plan might help but only if it made a difference in getting a replacement vehicle of some kind. It does no good to tell the people the newest Honda bread box get 40 MPG if it costs 18k. Not if there is a Korean car that get 34 MPG at 9k. And the quality lasts doesn't get it when people were trading in a car way before they get a chance to see if it does or not. All of the majors lied to us when they said they couldn't do better with a EV or Plugin Hybrid for less that 50k. If a private company like this: http://www.aptera.com/aboutus.php Can do it the big 6 should have done it already and give the consumer a chance to see if they could use it.

    I don't know if the major manufacturers care but they can't keep doing business as usual.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    WHAT are some ideas to revive the American Auto Industry?

    Small diesel PU trucks and SUVs. I am not going to ride around in a tin can Fit, Yaris or Scion getting a lousy 35 MPG. A Fit or Yaris that gets 70 MPG on diesel would be worth the risk to me. If gas gets so expensive I cannot afford to drive my Sequoia, the highways will be empty. I am willing to do my part. It has to be on MY terms not some Enviro wacko in Sacramento or DC. I still believe in the individual. Something that has gotten tossed out of the American mindset. Think of it as musical chairs. I will not get left without an SUV to drive. Sure I would like to be getting 30 MPG in a decent sized PU or SUV. Or 40 MPG in a midsized PU or SUV. The rest of the World has them. We are the deprived and depraved Nation on this planet. 20 years from now my Sequoia may be a clunker and the People may try to get me to trade it in with some crazy "Clunker" program. They better have a good alternative.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "... if we're going to the Soviet model of auto manufacturing, I'd like one of these awesome Packard knockoffs!"

    That Zil or Zis or whatever is a real museum peace. I'd like to see Collectible Automobile or Hemmings do an article on it. For my garage, though, I'd prefer that pre-WWII-looking sedan in the background of the picture. It looks like some kind of a German car, but I can't tell which kind. I could also be dead wrong on its origins, but it doesn't look like a Soviet car to me. Can anyone identify it?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I think the message that has been trumpeted for decades was to get rid of all incumbents until you have a Congress that does a good job.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I know it's OT, but you asked, so...

    The car in the background is probably a Moskvitch 400/401, which was based on Opel Kadett tooling taken from Germany by the Soviets during the postwar looting period. It could also be a Kadett, but they made over a hundred thousand of the Moskvitch, they are relatively common. I think it was the only looted automotive technology that the Soviets were actually able to put into production - most materials lifted from DKW, Stoewer etc vanished into thin air.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The pseudo-Packard is actually a ZIL 111 circa 1963. I believe they're a more faithful copy than the more common GAZ Chaika.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    image

    This 1965 ZIL reminds me of a cross between a 1959 Imperial and a 1961 Cadillac front end clip with a 1955 Chrysler body.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That's one clunker that won't be scrapped in some stimulus new car package ;)

    Funny how the Soviets preached against the west, but loved to copy western prestige cars.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Wow, lemko, you're the in-house authority on Soviet cars. This may be the first time the Chaika brand has ever been mentioned in Edmunds. I'd read about that brand, but I can't remember when the last time was that I saw that name in print. Interesting, not to mention unusual!

    Where did you find all those pictures and how did you acquire all that knowledge?

    Given the awful history of the Soviet Union and its leaders (with the possible exception of Mikhail Gorbachev), what we'll never know about the goings on in those luxury chariots is probably much more interesting than what we know about the cars themselves.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    They still won World War II in spite of themselves.

    I've often wondered why the Italians made such bad soldiers but produced such wonderful cars and Russia exactly the opposite.

    I've often said that one could teach national history by merely showing pictures of the cars a country produces at various times in its development.

    Cars reflect not only the economy but the psyche I think.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I've also found it amusing that in most categories, cars from the old Axis nations have completely demolished cars from the old Allies, to the point of many Allied carmakers dying off or being in serious trouble. If you want small or midsize, Japan and a few Germans rule. If you want competent luxury, Germans and a few Japanese rule. If you want crazy bahnstormers or lust-worthy exotics, Germany and Italy are king. Quiet revenge, perhaps? :shades:
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    They not only loved to copy western prestige cars, some of them loved actual western prestige cars, too.

    Leonid Brezhnev liked to collect a luxury car as a gift every time he visited a western country.

    From President Nixon he received a 1972 Cadillac Eldorado, a 1973 Lincoln Continental sedan and a 1974 Chevrolet Monte Carlo. One wonders what happened to those cars.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Brezhnev and a bunch of other commies had MB 600, too. Probably all languishing in a provincial museum somewhere, or locked up in a neglected compound. Not surprising, perhaps, when Lenin himself had a Rolls.

    Those cars you list are very Nixonian. I can see him driving that Lincoln.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I bet Putin would like a new Cadillac CTS but he should probably be driving in an armored car.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I imagine Putin driving a new 7-series...the car of choice for shady Russian oligarchs who drive themselves.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    image

    Circa 1986 ZIL 41047. Kind of looks like a 1981-82 Ford Granada on steroids.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I have always seen those as a knockoff of a 1974-78 or so full sized Chrysler.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    image

    Circa 1970 ZIL 114. Kind of looks like they were trying to copy a 1965 Continental by this time.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "I've often wondered why the Italians made such bad soldiers but produced such wonderful cars..."

    Well the first part is easy to understand, since people who dislike conformity, and routinely disobey rules and orders (eg. passing on shoulders, parking on sidewalks, running red lights and stop signs) wouldn't make good soldiers. It's also not a stretch to understand how these character and cultural traits translate into the ability to create beautiful designs. The less obvious part is the numerous automotive technical innovations the Italians have introduced, and the fact that their car companies and industry have lasted into the 21st century. Among other things, Italy is a relatively small country, and lacks the natural economies of scale of larger countries.

    As for why the Soviets are lousy car makers, I think a large part ot this is attributable to Communism.

    Back to the Italians, If you're looking for a thrill, take a cab ride in Naples. I once asked a driver why he went the wrong way down a one-way street, and he told me that it was a short cut. Then he added that he doesn't like to follow signs that tell him where he can go and not go. It gets better. Before he turned into another street, a driver coming the other way flashed his lights and honked his horn. In response, the driver of my taxi rolled down the window, and gesticulated and yelled insults at the other driver, presumably for daring to question his judgment. Both drivers had to put two wheels on the sidewalk to get past each other. And, yes, there were pedestrians on the sidewalks, but you didn't get the sense from their behavior that what was happening was unusual. Now, this being Naples, it wouldn't be surprising if these two drivers traded roles at some point.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    As you probably remember, when Putin was President Bush's guest at his Texas ranch, W. gave Vladimer a ride in his Ford pickup. When W. visited Russia, Vladimer took the wheel of an old Moskovich, and gave W. a short ride. The significance of choosing an old Moskovich was never clear to me.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah but the industrial north of Italy is a whole other personality. Don't be fooled into thinking Italy is actually a unified country just because it says so on a map. Think of it as dozens of medieval duchies.

    My favorite part about Italy is the billboards asking citizens to please start paying their taxes.

    Italian car design is highly innovative. They were making cars in 1955 that made American cars seem like stagecoaches in comparison. Small alloy OHC engines which are in just about every car today, variable valve timing long before the Japanese, 5-speed transmissions--all that came out of Italy in normal production cars I mean, in the 50s.

    If anything the Italians problem has always been to put aesthetics AHEAD of mechanics---some of their cars' mechanical parts are far too pretty, in a useless kind of way. You could put an early Alfa intake manifold into the museum of modern art for goodness sake.

    The USA made the best gadgets and bling though--no contest! Ours stagecoaches had power windows and lots of chrome :P

    And our cars were pretty darn reliable, too, primitive though they might have been by post WW II industrial standards.

    Now I don't think we really excel at anything in automotive engineering, in the sense of completely distancing the field, I mean.

    Maybe with global competition, that just isn't possible anymore, I mean, to be THAT far ahead as the Italians and Germans were in the 50s.

    It's a different world that's for sure.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Maybe the Ford truck was a proletatian American car...so the Moskvich was a proletatian Russian car. Doesn't say much good about Russia...
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...You Asked For It!

    image

    Putin's Moskvitch
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