Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

nippononly

So a company called Herpes is going to mimic a Mini with the front end of an early 70s VW fastback grafted on, and this could be part of our green future?

I will take my green in a different flavor, thanks! :-P

andre1969

So a company called Herpes...

I wonder if people in other countries really think these names through, and how they're going to be twisted around in other languages? What's next, an internet browser with Woody Woodpecker as the mascot and the slogan "Touch Woody...the Internet Pecker!" :P

fintail

Nobody has any Trabi-love? :shades:

I'd love to pull up in an old one and see a Prius owner recoil at the smoke plume.

Funny thing about "Herpa"...I am not quite native-speaker fluent, but as far as I know, the German word for herpes is also "Herpes".

ateixeira

Odd strategy.

Give us a 4 banger 1 series first, and the X1.

The X3 is too heavy, the 3 series is too pricey (even at a slightly lower price).

ateixeira

Wow, usually you draw inspiration from a cool car when you go retro style. A Trabant?

And Herpa is the plural form.

nippononly

Well, this is a twin turbo four they are talking about.

I would love to see them pull about 20% of the weight out of a 1-series and give it an NA four, that would be a natural. The TRUE successor to the 2002.

Thing is, despite being celebrated for how much gas they save, turbos often end up using almost as much gas as their similar-power NA equivalent with two more cylinders!

ateixeira

True.

Let's see, if a twin turbo 6 can make 300hp, that ought to put the twin turbo 4 at around 200hp or so.

That's not a bad drop from the base straight 6 now, but only really worth it if it's lighter. Not sure with all that extra plumbing.

hpmctorque

How do you figure you'd get anywhere near a 20% weight reduction on the entire car by substituting a twin turbo 4 for the I-6? The twin turbos and the plumbing associated with them mitigate some of the weight difference between the four and six cylinder.

Aside from this issue, I'd buy a 3-Series over a I because, (1) the proportions on the smallest BMW look odd, in my opinion. and (2) the back seat is difficult to access and very tight. I also don't like run-flat tires.

nippononly

No no, I meant to pull 20% of the weight out of the car as a whole, not just out of the engine bay.

And with everyone else in the world pulling out of run-flats, let's hope BMW drops them soon too.

hpmctorque

The 1-Series with the I-6 weighs something over 3,400 pounds, so it's no featherweight. I'm sure it's possible to reduce the weight by ~700 pounds by using a higher proportion of lightweight materials, in addition to swapping the I-6 for a twin turbo I-4, but at what cost? I don't know the answer, but my guess is that it would be quite expensive to achieve that much reduction, inless the overall size of the car were also reduced. That might happen, but I believe the 1-Series shares its platform with the 3-Series, which could pose a challenge. I suppose BMW could reverse the trend of making each generation of 3-Series larger. I'd like to see the 3 return to the dimensions of the E-30 or even the E-36. In any event, it'll be interesting to watch.

Speaking of smalller engines, here are exerps from an interesting article from Autoweek, regarding Ford's plans...

"Ford plans to introduce two-cylinder and three-cylinder engines"
By AMY WILSON, AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

"Frankfurt auto show: 2012 Ford C-MaxFord Motor Co. will introduce its smallest turbocharged engine yet next year, and on the horizon are even tinier engines--including two- and three-cylinder versions, the automaker's powertrain chief said Monday.

Barb Samardzich, Ford vice president of powertrain engineering, said two- and three-cylinder engines and engines with displacements of 1.0 liter or below are possible.

'I think you'll see all of those things roll out,' Samardzich said. 'It's more than experimental.'

Samardzich wouldn't talk about a timetable for such small engines or specify in what markets or vehicles they would first appear. But it makes sense that engines of that size would first be introduced in developing markets or in Europe, where small vehicles dominate.

Meanwhile, in 2010 Ford will introduce a new 1.6-liter, four-cylinder engine with its EcoBoost turbocharging and direct-injection technology. The engine will go on sale late next year on the next-generation Ford C-Max, a family of Focus-derived small minivans.

Ford will sell the seven-seat Grand C-Max, the larger of the two body styles, in North America beginning around late 2011. But executives aren't saying whether the 1.6-liter EcoBoost engine will power the Grand C-Max in North America.

The 1.6-liter EcoBoost is intended to replace naturally aspirated, large I-4 engines. Torque compares with a 2.5-liter I-4, officials said.

When Ford goes to even smaller engines, it will use technologies such as balance shafts to help solve noise and vibration issues, Samardzich said. Those problems are 'manageable,' she said.

The smallest EcoBoost engine that Ford has confirmed for North America is a 2.0-liter I-4 that goes on sale in 2010 in undisclosed nameplates. It is intended to replace 3.0-liter V6 engines.

By 2013, Ford says, it will sell 1.3 million EcoBoost-equipped vehicles per year globally, with up to 750,000 in North America alone. Two-thirds of the volume will come from four-cylinder models."

ateixeira

They'd be wise to keep the 2- and 3-cylinder engines in Europe only. Americans are already reluctant to accept 4 bangers.

What impresses me about EcoBoost is that so far they're tuned for 87 octane.

Ford gets it. If you seek out a smaller engine, fuel economy is a high priority. Premium fuel can cost 10-20% more at some gas stations, and that kills any chance for economy.

Look at the Smart ForTwo. It requires premium fuel. How dumb is that?

You make all these gigantic sacrifices in the name of efficiency, then you gotta pay $2.95 here in Potomac, MD, instead of $2.67 for regular. This is the only gas station I pass on my way home.

If you get 40mpg, the extra 28 cents you pay is more than a 10% penalty. It's like getting less than 36mpg.

MPG is the whole point. Smart doesn't get it.

That's why Edmunds couldn't give their used one away. Now that the fad status has worn off, it's an econobox without the economy part.

hpmctorque

I agree on the premium fuel issue.

If Ford introduces 2 and 3 cylinder engines, I'd like them to also be available in U.S.

nippononly

Ditto. Not sure how hesitant Americans are to buy 4-cylinder engines, given that about 70% of all Toyota and Honda sales are 4-cylinder models......

gagrice

Also, last night Leno unveiled the much-discussed "Green Car Challenge" segment; Drew Barrymore was his first racer. In the coming week, Bob Costas, Al Michaels and Rush Limbaugh will drive the course.

The race included life-size cut-outs of environmentalists Al Gore and Ed Begley Jr. who pop onto the track. During the segment's setup, Leno explained the eco-friendly celebrities "don't know these are electric cars" and are trying to stop the vehicles -- which gives drivers a chance to comically mow them down. Having anti-environmentalists would have made more contextual sense, but Leno producers probably figure Gore and Begley make for, ahem, easier targets.

Watch the video:

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/09/leno-ratings-low-green-car-challenge-video-.html

iluvmysephia1

working on allaying the public's fear of "running out of electricity" while driving. These are the people who are trying to tackle some of the problems of implementing this new automotive-propulsion technology. If this software can hook up and find the various charging centers then the fear of heading over somewhere you're not sure about being able to safely reach can be remedied.

I find this type of technology interesting as I want to some day buy an all-electric car. And sometimes I like to drive a long distance, too, so this technology is both ground-breaking and important!

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1035381_better-place-unveils-safet-net-softw- - are-designed-to-alleviate-range-anxiety

ateixeira

That report is very misleading...

Ed Begley Jr. is a friend of Jay's, in fact Jay Leno has appeared on Ed's show, Living With Ed.

Whoever wrote the article doesn't get it. Ed has a sense of humor and I'm sure he didn't mind. Plus you had to avoid them else you're disqualified.

Last weeks' Monday debut was huge for two reasons:

1. It was the debut, and

2. Kanye West was a guest, and the timing was perfect for an apology for the Taylor Swift gaffe.

There's nothing more annoying than when an author says he's sorry for being misleading but then goes ahead and writes a misleading story.

iluvmysephia1

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1037149_revolutionary-zinc-air-battery-devel- - - oped-for-ev-use

Once again, if they can get all the stars to line up properly in their production of these new forms of batteries, the all-electrically-propelled automotive world could forever be changed.

Zinc-air! Humm...check out the story and see if it makes much sense, or if you think it might work in the work-a-day-world of automobiles. If it does, some new usable and innovative EV product, as well as money-saving ideas, will be available to us all.

hpmctorque

It'll be interesting to see what the depreciation will be like for electric cars. Maybe not too bad if you lease the batteries. My guess is that depreciation would be high if you owned the car with the batteries.

gagrice

The batteries will be the most expensive component of an EV. I doubt they will have the long warranty associated with the hybrids. No EPA or CARB mandates involved. No emissions to worry about. If the manufacturer does not control the high and low charge discharge rate, it could shorten the life of the battery. It will be a whole new world to deal with.

carstryke

I am just wondering if "i forgot to plug in my car" or "the power went out last night" will be valid excuses for being late for work. (when they are full electrics)

larsb

Only as well as "my car won't start" or "my battery ran down" work now.

ateixeira

Take the bus, my boss would say.

gagrice

Open up your wallets folks, this is just the beginning. With a good line of BS you too can scam the tax payer out of half a Billion dollars. Too bad the only green will be our greenbacks down the drain. Has any of that money been spent on a small economical EV or diesel?

American automaker Fisker Automotive was recently approved for a conditional loan of $528 million by the Department of Energy (DOE). While news reports were mostly factual, some ignored or marginalized the truth, or sensationalized irrelevant aspects of the loan and our company. Fisker Automotive would like to present the facts -- Fisker Automotive is an American car company based in Irvine, California -- The company’s goals are to help restore the U.S. as a leader in the global auto industry and to eliminate America’s dependence on foreign oil -- These DOE funds will help Fisker Automotive create or save at least 5,000 U.S. jobs, bring to market affordable, American-made plug-in hybrid vehicles and save more than 821 million gallons of gasoline (43.2 million barrels of oil) by 2016

The funds will be repaid, with interest, to the American taxpayer -- Some have asked questions about the cost of the cars -- Any new technology is expensive. Televisions, cell phones, refrigerators and even cars themselves were once too expensive for most. In time, however, costs come down.

http://karma.fiskerautomotive.com/news_items

iluvmysephia1

said they want to build an "affordable" hybrid sedan for the American consumer, for, umm, some $39,000? That's after the Obama-rebate, yes. I'd say that if that's gonna be the price then don't bother. :sick:

Oh, and I'm not talkin' about the Chevy Volt and it's $40,000 pricetag, either.

gagrice

That is exactly my point. These companies are only interested in snagging money from the tax payers and will give the wealthy geek a car to show off and look green in. Nothing practical on the horizon. The $25 Billion will be squandered on companies like GM, Tesla and Fisker and the American motorist will still be driving the same old crap gas cars.

iluvmysephia1

man, I don't see how the future and the crappy jobs market can yield any better result than that. Really, where does BO think all of this discretionary income is going to come from to buy these overpriced cars?

We can see it right now, and it's not rocket-powered automotive science, either.

gagrice

If we invested that money in auto companies that have actual EVs ready for market we may see a return on the investment. Warren Buffett might give Congress some clue as to where they need to maximize the return and give US the EVs that are practical.

My prediction is BYD will bury the Prius and Volt plugins before they ever hit our shores. Or in the words of James Carville, Its the Batteries stupid.

british_rover

The average price of a new car is just over 30,000 dollars.

What is so surprising about a $39,000 dollar price tag for an all electric technological tour de force?

he massive jump in transaction prices also outpaces by a sizable margin the industry at large, as AN quotes the industry average at $30,327

link title

nippononly

Try not to get too sucked in by Negativista gagrice. He will naysay just about anything. But Tesla has specifically said they are aiming for their next model after the 4-door to be a $25,000 model. The CEO of Fisker has also committed to something of the sort. Both of those are in the 2-4 year horizon, and both companies now produce VERY green, VERY exciting, if expensive cars.

This technology is in its (second) infancy folks....

british_rover

Yup the first version the Roadster was 100,000 plus.

The second version White Star, should have kept that name it is AWESOME, was 50,000 plus.

The third version sedan should be 25,000 base with 35,000 top out.

If you don't think their is a large market for 50,000 dollar midsize to large sedans then just count up all the sales of...

5 Series
E Class
A6
XF
GS
M
RL
CTS/STS

and well maybe whatever Lincoln is calling their new mid to large size Sedan.

If Fisker and Tesla can capture just a couple percent of that market they will be rocking.

gagrice

I am a BIG fan of EVs. I have priced converting my Ranger to electric. I even went and test drove the only EV ever sold in San Diego that was legal on the roads around here. Sadly the electric rates in San Diego have made them a non starter for me. When you are looking at 34 cents per KWH to charge an EV it does not make a lot of sense. Add to that the useful life & cost of the battery. Not a rosy picture as I see it. If anyone bothered to read that Fisker's article they hope to sell their sedan for $39k after the $7500 tax credit. About the same price as the Volt from Chevy. The Tesla S is a nice looking vehicle. But a base price of $50k is hardly mainstream. I would be more inclined to buy an all electric than I would a hybrid. If solar cells ever become affordable I could see possibilities. It will be for the wealthy for the near future and maybe beyond.

iluvmysephia1

gagrice is right. Did y'all read the article? Neither of us is negatory, just being our practical selves. Having said that, I remain a fan of all-electrics and a somewhat fan of hybrids. A Kia Forte hybrid sedan remains a possibility, but they're using LP gas in it? Would that still work here in the U.S.? Need more info. there.

An all-electric Mitsubishi i-MiEV is supposed to ring in at around $40,000. I've even read of a $50,000 price on one. I love my '08 Lancer GTS and might be able to snag a loyalty incentive, and the BO "green car" rebate is available to knock $7,500 off of those possibility prices on the i-MiEV. I would trust Mitsu's technological prowess with an all-electric. They've been working on it a while, too.

But this one from BYD, the e6, has most of my all-electric car attention.



This one has a range of 249 miles, very appealing to me. The Pininfarina-Bollore BlueCar is said to have a range of only 153 miles. Interesting design on the BlueCar, though, including regenerative-drawing front solar panels on the grille and on the roof.

The BYD will go 99 mph and 0-60 in 8 seconds and go 249 miles. Will it really go that far on one charge? Some have expressed doubt. We will find out, of course I'm gonna wanna know if it will before I would pull the purchase trigger.

And yes, BYD is another manufacturer that will offer as an option the "super-fast" chargers, in one hour one can get an 80% full charge, or words to that effect. Mitsu offers same technology on their i-MiEV and I would probably spring for one of those. I'm ready to pull my all-electric in to my carport, 220 outlet ready to utilize. Recently up-sized my service for my laundry room, right off the carport.

For our purposes, the e6 makes sense for Willcox to Tucson funzy trips, it's 80 miles each way. But for putting around little Willcox, one charge could last me all workweek and even a good portion of my week off. I'm more than a little bit interested in an all-electric. And new charging stations are going in in Tucson, too. Nissan is building some to amp up early delight in their new Leaf. But the article noted that they would make the charging stations available to all comers with all-electric powertrains. Wonder what the fee might be.

Portland and SF are big heavy-hitters in this race, and Phoenix-Tucson are being drawn in to it by carmakers. And a green company or two. Lawmakers are being quite still and silent in Arizona so far on this subject. Just keeping several other hot issues going are sure to be taking all of their time up.

lemko

High School Kids Best MIT

kernick

sure seemed to make this 2010 Prius exciting and fun ... well for a little while.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2009/11/three-tenness- - ee-players-charged-with-armed-robbery/1?loc=interstitialskip

I wonder how comfortable the Prius was for those basketball players? Answer - more comfortable than handcuffed in the back-seat of the Crown Vic!

ateixeira

Great story. Hopefully some of those kids become automotive engineers in the future.

nippononly

Anything that is fun to drive and has a range of at least 150 miles will have my solid attention as my next possible commute car.

But it's got to go at least 150 miles at freeway speed.

iluvmysephia1

should be able to accomplish 150 miles at freeway speed if they are stating that it will go 249 miles on one charge. Of all the new green cars this one is the most interesting to me.

iluvmysephia1

can Citroen offer their all-electric car for only $16,500USD?



The specs are strikingly simliar to the Mitsubishi i-MiEV all-electric car coming out in another year or so in the U.S. Yet I have heard that the i-MiEV will run $30,000 or more here. Huh?

It's not that I don't trust Mitsu's engineering and product development teams, in fact au contraire. I am thinking of just staying in the Mitsubishi family of automobiles from here on out.

I am going to look at BYD's e6 in a year or year and a half, and see if it even comes close to getting 249 miles on one charge. BYD will charge around $30,000 for the e6, too. But the e6 and the i-MiEV are my two favoritist all-electrics under development right now.

ateixeira

That's easier to accept. $30k is a tough pill to swallow for a car that looks like it should cost $12 grand.

gagrice

I could not find anything on a Citroen EV like in your picture. I did find this less than flattering recent review.

20 August 2009
Test drive: ECC Citroen C1 Evie electric car

The rocking motion gets worse the faster we go, so it’s fortunate that acceleration runs out at 60mph.

The 30kW (40bhp) motor, fed by 25 lithium ion batteries, hauls the car smoothly from nought to 30mph in about eight seconds with foot flat to the floor. This doesn’t sound quick, but it’s more than fast enough for inner-city cut and thrust.

We keep pace with ordinary traffic during our test, which tends to involve using the car’s power to the full for much of the time. Our round trip leaves 61% in reserve, equating to a total range of about 34 miles, well short of the manufacturer’s quoted 60-mile maximum between six-hour charges. No doubt a more feather-footed driving style would extend the range dramatically, but we would definitely want to think twice or even three times before heading off to a destination more than 15 miles away.

Overall, we’re disappointed but impressed by the Evie, if that verdict makes sense. It is a better car than we thought from our first brief taste, but is not quite the persuasive package we had hoped for. It is a better bet than the similarly-priced G-Wiz L-ion if only because more of the speed on offer will be usable without fear of disintegration, although the much lighter G-Wiz will probably do better in real-world range.

http://www.greenmotor.co.uk/2009/08/test-drive-ecc-citroen-c1-evie-electric.html-

nippononly

At least one of the European carmakers (I forget which one) will be selling a rebadged i-MIEV in a year's time. Perhaps this is the one?

The Frankfurt auto show showed lots of really fun to drive electric cars, and BMW showed its diesel-electric hybrid for the car line. I would say the future in fun-to-drive green cars is bright!

But you will have to pay European prices to get there, as the big Japanese and domestic automakers are slower off the mark in this regard.

gagrice

More on the Citroen EV'IE: Citroen EV

The ev’ie doesn’t feel very lively as you draw away from a standstill, but with a top speed of 60mph and a 75-mile range, it’s adequate enough for city driving. Despite the extra weight in the nose, it still handles well and remains a full four-seater – unlike its rival, the MINI E.

The big problem is the price tag. Even though it costs little more than a penny a mile to run, you’d have to travel 200,000 miles to make up the difference between this and a regular C1! It’s a brave effort, but it only serves to prove that before promised Government grants are taken into account, electric cars still have a long way to go.

Rival: Mitsubishi i-MIEV
Electric version of the firm’s city car carries over the regular model’s bold looks and four-seater cabin. But the £35,000 asking price is prohibitive.
That is $58,875 US dollars for the Mitsubishi. Looks like they really don't want to sell then in the USA.

ateixeira

I agree $59 grand is absolutely ridiculous but you can't just convert from pounds to dollars. Cars cost much less here.

It will still be too expensive, though.

nippononly

Your dream may be coming true:

Some BMWs will get 4-cylinder engines

November 23, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

WOODCLIFF LAKE, N.J. -- BMW will offer four-cylinder diesel engines in North America as it seeks to improve fuel efficiency and match the performance of its current six-cylinder gasoline engines.

BMW is considering diesels in a range of models, including its 1 series, 3 series and 5 series sedans and possibly the X3 crossover and Z4 roadster, said Tom Baloga, vice president of engineering for BMW of North America.

"You're going to see it in the 3 series, and the 5 series is a good possibility," Baloga said. "If the performance is sufficient in the X3, U.S. customers would likely accept it in the X5 as well."

Baloga did not disclose timing but said BMW will be ready to comply with emissions rules. Federal rules will regulate the amount of carbon dioxide per mile, based on an automaker's fleet average. The rules call for an average of 250 grams of C02 per mile by 2016, which equates to 35.5 mpg.

Baloga said BMW will seek diesel performance comparable to that of its current six-cylinder engines by using a turbocharged 2.0-liter model tuned for performance. In Europe BMW sells a 320d with a 2.0-liter turbocharged diesel.

"Our four-cylinder diesel will be so good that people will readily accept it as a replacement for six cylinders," Baloga said. "With the weight reduction, performance could be similar to the turbocharged six-cylinder [gasoline engine] if we pushed very hard."

Baloga said BMW will aim for a substantial increase in its diesel sales mix in North America.

"If we hit 10 to 20 percent, we would be happy," he said.

In Europe, 70 percent of BMW's sales are diesels.

With exhaust treatment, BMW's diesels will meet California emission standards as well as federal tailpipe emission rules. Baloga didn't disclose what technology would be used -- a diesel particulate filter or a selective catalytic reduction treatment with a refillable on-board urea tank as in the BMW 335d.

.....Sales of the X5 xDrive35d and 335d, which are powered by a 3.0-liter, twin-turbo, six-cylinder in-line diesel, got off to a slow start. Diesels now represent 13 percent of total X5 sales but only 1.3 percent of 3-series sedan sales.

BMW launched a marketing campaign and offered a $4,500 rebate on both diesels during last summer's cash-for-clunkers program. The incentive continues through December. Through October, BMW sold 1,002 335d sedans and 2,706 X5 xDrive35d crossovers.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20091123/OEM05/311239982/1186

So sales of diesel 335s totally SUCK. What was the point of bringing that model over? If they had brought the 2.0 diesel over from the start, they would have sold five times as many of these, I'm sure. Even in the X5, diesels should be more than 13% of sales. But with the overkill 6-cylinder, the price is too high and the fuel economy rating isn't impressive enough, so, no sales.

It will be cool once they have a solid 45 mpg car or two for sale in the States. And we all know how fun BMWs are to drive...... ;-)

gagrice

I agree the 320D should have been the one for the USA. 425 ft lbs of torque in a little car is only for the power hungry drivers. It was too much in the big X5. I would like to try either the X3 or X5 with a 4 cylinder Diesel. Hopefully they have gotten around the urea. That is pretty much a deal killer for me.

ateixeira

I hope they can keep prices down. The 335d is nice but very expensive. The 0-60 matches the 328i but the price matches the 335i.

A 320d has to cost much less. 328i prices, at most.

nippononly

Well, I'm not a betting man, but if I had to guess I would say 328i prices + $2000 or so.

iluvmysephia1

from Chinese automaker BYD on their two rigs coming to the U.S. The F3DM and the e6.


2010 BYD e6

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1040213_byd-to-display-e6-and-f3dm-at-naias-- - - in-detroit-next-month-u-s-release-slated-for-may-2010#comments

They will both show at the NAIAS in Detroit in Jan. 2010. And the e6 will go on sale in May of 2010. It will list for $40,000. Which is about $8,000 too much IMHO.

nippononly

If it's all-electric it gets a $7500 federal rebate I believe.

I had no idea the Chinese were going to be ready to sell these here so soon.

iluvmysephia1

if the all-electric powertrain in the BYD e6 holds up and produces ranges of 225+ miles then a price of $32,500 is not all that bad for one of them. I will not be forking over that kind of money on one, however. And I will act when the prices fall and not until then.