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Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I'd eat my own shoes before I'd pay 32K for a Chinese car.

    Can't wait to see how it crashes, and what the lead content is inside :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    More than likely your shoes were made in China with some lead in them. :sick:

    This Mini will be at the January Detroit Auto show. Might be something I would like if they offer their diesel version here.

    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I 100% with you on that.

    And is BMW going to let them use their logo here?

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  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    BYD to prove their cars to us. I'm not opening a pocketbook of mine until I see the test of time on these cars. And all-new technology is even going to need closer scrutiny.

    It's just that I heard people put Hyundai and Kia down from 1998 till about 2005 pretty strongly. They've made great strides but really my '99 Sephia was all there in the spring of 1999...and then some. BYD and Chery and the rest will eventually build a buyable car sent over here. Doubt it will take as long as y'all think it will.

    I don't spose Warren Buffett's influence might hurry this technology/quality/green BYD race on to even greater speeds, eh?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Excel and Scoupe were not blatant rip-offs of other cars, at least.

    The Koreans arrived here in 1986 and took about a decade to get going. Now they're on a roll (anyone who disagrees needs to go drive a Genesis).

    I once read the Japanese took 20 years, the Koreans took 10, and the Chinese will do it in 5.

    We'll see. That's a bit optimistic, I think. They're starting with the handicap of being perceived as copy-cats. More than perceived, come to think of it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I'll bet a lot of money that it takes a lot longer than 5 years for the Chinese to make a truly competent product, if it happens at all. And even then I wouldn't want one.

    And yeah, in terms of copycars, it's reality over perception.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I think the odds are that the Chinese will eventually succeed in making cars that are very competitive. Why? Because, among other things, it's easier to reverse engineer something complex and make improvements than to design it in the first place. Another important factor they have going for them is an enormous domestic market, which gives them great operating leverage. Also, their huge home market gives them the clout to strike very favorable equity sharing deals with established manufacturers and suppliers. It would be harder for me to argue why they wouldn't succeed than why they would, but it will take them more than five years.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Look how far Hyundai has come since 2005.

    The 05 Sonata V6 made 170hp.

    Today's 4 banger makes more HP than that.

    If the Chinese launch a car in 2010 that seems very uncompetitive, say a 170hp V6, don't be surprised if by 2015 that is fixed.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Sheesh! I'd eat my shoes and then walk barefoot before I even considered purchasing a Chinese car! The thing would probably electrocute you when you turned the key. It's probably got more lead content than all the bullets fired in WWII.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Likewise.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I think you'll have that Fleetwood around until your last day...so you have nothing to worry about.

    And regarding the Chinese cars...even if they are able to rise to competency, which is still light years off with their current offerings - I don't see innovation on the horizon.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    They can't even get a kitchen gadget to work properly. My wife was using a hand mixer and couldn't get the beaters to turn. I tried it and the crank would turn freely but the gear was jammed fast. I asked where she got it - and it was at Wal~Mart and made in China.

    BTW, did you ever see those offensive TV commercials promoting trade with the PRC "Made In With China?"
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How about all the lead in the paint on your Chinese Keyboard? You should love the Chinese they are BIG BUICK Fans. And they are about all that keeps your beloved GM alive.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We are going to be pushed into Chinese cars by this Government. Mark my words. They have written legislation that requires all Chinese made CFL bulbs by 2012. Putting 1000s out of work here making incandescent lights. EPA regulations will not allow CFL bulbs to be manufactured here due to the Mercury content. And they took the condom manufacturing away from a US company and gave it to China. Cars will be soon with Government Motors as the brand name. Thankfully we still have German car makers building quality, at least for now.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Puh-leese....the "this government" line makes me want to put on my hip waders, if you know what I mean. The Chinese products are proliferating no matter the government, as both sides are different means to the same end.

    The CFL issue is an idiotic act of paid-for legislators, but all condoms are not all going to be made in China.

    There will still be Japanese cars, Korean cars, European cars, along with Chinese cars. We all know what we will prefer.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I'd be worried about battery packs on Chinese vehicles given that region's rep for making aftermarket laptop batteries. I hope people like smoke.

    Unless some of these homegrown products develop fast, I don't see the Chinese being a near-term threat in green vehicles or any other. Time will tell in the longer term...but it is going to take a real paradigm shift in mentality to develop vehicles people want...simply buying ailing brands won't do it.

    I haven't seen the ads...but I know we are paying for them.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeesh! Chinese condoms?!?!? :surprise: Better get a vasectomy or prepare to support a lot of illegitimate children due to catastrophic failure! :cry: First of all, would you use any Chinese product.......there? :confuse:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    They are models provided by the government...probably not who you want to rely on for protection in the first place :shades:

    Probably not very green either...chemical analysis probably returns a few "unknown"s
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Congress decided cheap Chinese Condoms were good enough to send to third world countries. Look for Chinese EVs on a street near you very soon. They will beat the Japanese to market. Most every Li-Ion auto battery will come from China or Korea no matter who's name is on the car.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I once read the Japanese took 20 years, the Koreans took 10, and the Chinese will do it in 5.

    I would say it took the Japanese more like 50 years and the Koreans more like 20 years. Maybe the Chinese do it in 10 to 15 years?

    First Japanese cars in the US came around in the 50s and while they made ok cars and some important or break through cars in the 60s and 70s they didn't really start to dominate till the 80s.

    The Koreans haven't made really dominating cars till just now so 20 years for them.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Guess so.

    The Excel debuted in 1986. The Generis won NACOTY in 2008/2009.

    So 22 years if you go all the way back to their debut, and then up to their current highlight.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Well, to be fair, Hyundai had been making cars for over a decade before 1986, that's just when they hit the US market.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If Chinese condoms are any good, why are there over 2 billion Chinese? Guess it's because of those faulty condoms! Heck, wouldn't you want to reduce that populations of poor third world countries?
  • 2012aveo2012aveo Member Posts: 43
    The population of China is 1.3 billion not 2 billion. Where do you and fintail get your facts from?
    I own a Fredricks dehumidefyer and 2 Frigidaire airconditioners as well as portable heater units all made in China and all very reliable. Some products from China are bad but not all. Many of you are very anti-China or anti-Asia from your posts. In my neighborhood in Queens, New York City I know many people that have become millionaires manufacturing, importing, and distributing products made in China. Non of them have been sued for bad quality to the best of my knowledge. I think many of you are just jealous that "other people" are making money in the China trade and not you.
    P.S. My China mutual fund went up more than 60% in value. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    What have I said that is wrong? Please provide quotes or refrain from using my username :P

    Opening China was the worst mistake made by Americans since enabling the Soviets. Their shameless and amoral copycars alone are an easy reason to hate the industrial mindset of the social and environmental criminal state. Globalization is the death of western civilization, dumbed down to a one world serfdom where an Aveo is like a Lexus :shades:

    Which world class products are coming from the glorified slave labor? Keep thinking artificial fortunes are something of which to be jealous. Shallow.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Getting back to cars...

    Not a lot of nice things to say about it. I'll try to be nice.

    The plastics sort of push the envelope on cheapness. I think a base Versa would feel like a luxury car next to it. Things snap on and off, and lots of panels aren't very well secured.

    It is roomier than you expect. A little narrow, though, and no arm rest between the seats. No dead pedal, either.

    Storage is clever. The convertible has slots in the rear hatch for the roof beams, to store. More cargo space than you'd think. Lots of leg and head room, also.

    The door is suprisingly wide. You need a lot of room to swing it open.

    Visibility isn't as good as excepted, either. Not too bad, but small mirrors don't help.

    The rear hatch glass opens but has no grab handle. They told me it's an accessory. That just seems strange to me. Finger prints on the glass all the time, I guess.

    Now the drive - I backed out, and the reverse must have straigh-cut gears, because it whines more than my kids when asked to do homework.

    Turning circle is impressively small, as you'd expect. It virtually spins in place.

    The transmission ruins the fun. Awful. It's jerky, so your head bobs forward as it lets off the gas, then jerks back as it gets back on the gas. Like an amateur driving stick. Worst experience since the Toyota MR2 SMG I sampled a while ago, and it was the same sort of setup.

    I tried shifting manually and I think it was actually worse. You feel like a bobblehead doll. Maybe you could learn precisely when to ease off the gas and it wouldn't be quite so bad.

    As is, the transmission gets an F, and that's only because there is no lower grade.

    I was surprised the cabrio has a power top, but you have to remove the two roof rails manually. The mid-level model (passion coupe, lower case letters by the way) has a HUGE glass roof that may honestly be the best compromise. Plus it still keeps the nicer 3 spoke steering wheel.

    I liked the textured roof on the base models (pure coupe) as well. It gives it a faux carbon fiber look, sort of. I did not like the cheap looking steering wheel and the general lack of amenities. It comes off as a designer version of a Tata Nano. The higher end models seem like a better value.

    I'm not crazy about the tach and clock location, in the middle and top of the dash, but the Yaris is similar. And leather seats still have a fabric insert, which is odd.

    I like the concept; the idea of a small city car. Problem is, the Honda Fit feels like a car that costs twice as much. It may not have the quirky, artistic, attention-grabbing design, but a smooth powertrain more than makes up for that.

    I hope they keep trying, especially on the drivetrain side. Tune the engine to run on regular gas, and replace the tranny with a full auto or a true manual. Finally, lobby the government to offer perks, like HOV lane access with just one driver, and maybe more reduced-cost parking spots ... something to help "sell" the idea.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I liked the Smart when I checked them out in Victoria BC. I would have bought one if it was legal in the USA. They have a small diesel engine and people getting as much as 90 MPG was what struck me. The one sold here is a joke. Might as well buy one of the cheapo tin cans sold by the Asians. Better yet a Jetta or Golf TDI that gets equal or better mileage and 2 to 3 times the space. As far as HOV access, I would not allow the Smart on our freeways, or the Accent, Yaris or the Fit.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hopefully the diesel engine is mated to a different transmission?
  • 2012aveo2012aveo Member Posts: 43
    Did not mean to offend. But I just do not agree with your negative views of trade between the US and China.
    "Social and environmental criminal state"? Didn't the European countries colonize China from 1842 to 1949 , sell opium there and steal China's resources? I suppose it was alright then. Who is the real criminal state?

    Globalization is how many people make a living. Just because you do not agree with the way they make a living does not make them shallow. There is nothing you nor I can do to change globalization except rant on an Edmunds forum. ;)
    I agree there are no world class products coming from China at the present time, but in the future, solar energy, electric motors, and batteries are possibilities.

    I have visited China in 2004 and seen huge infrastructure projects such as high speed railways. Have you? If not how can you comment about China?

    Globalization is not the death of western civilization. It is the immature Generation X and Y of this country that will do western civilization in. :P Just joking there. Again I did not mean to offend.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have visited China in 2004 and seen huge infrastructure projects such as high speed railways.

    China IS the leader in high speed rail. They have passed up France and Japan like they were standing still. If they can build the World's fastest rail system and measly electric vehicle should be simple. And we don't have anything to compete.

    China unveils 'world's fastest train link'

    China on Saturday unveiled what it billed as the fastest rail link in the world -- a train connecting the modern cities of Guangzhou and Wuhan at an average speed of 350 kilometres (217 miles) an hour.

    The super-high-speed train reduces the 1,069 kilometre journey to a three hour ride and cuts the previous journey time by more than seven and a half hours, the official Xinhua news agency said.

    Work on the project began in 2005 as part of plans to expand a high-speed network aimed at eventually linking Guangzhou, a business hub in southern China near Hong Kong, with the capital Beijing, Xinhua added.

    "The train can go 394.2 kilometres per hour, it's the fastest train in operation in the world," Zhang Shuguang, head of the transport bureau at the railways ministry, told Xinhua.

    Test runs for the service began earlier in December and the link officially went into service when the first scheduled train left the eastern metropolis of Wuhan on Saturday.

    By comparison, the average for high-speed trains in Japan was 243 kilometres per hour while in France it was 277 kilometres per hour, said Xu Fangliang, general engineer in charge of designing the link, according to Xinhua.


    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.8349a994b8c3f1843499859080974ba9.341- &show_article=1
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It is the immature Generation X and Y of this country that will do western civilization in

    Hey, I resemble that remark. :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Let's look at today, please. There is no nation so coddled in a commerce perspective that gets away with as many crimes as China. Mind you, I am not meaning this to give criticism to the Chinese people, but to the corrupt Chinese state. If we want to look at old crimes, the British empire takes the cake...but we aren't looking at 170 years ago. Sorry.

    I don't trade in possibilities. China is not yet a technological innovator and I do not believe the system there encourages such free thought. That might be kind of a saving grace. I don't see high speed rail as relevant. If I want world class railways, I will go to Germany or Switzerland, maybe France (without strikes) and Japan too. High speed rail isn't necessarily a 'green' technology either, it is more of something to show off. If you want to go 400kmh on a train in China, better hope some of the engineering was subcontracted.

    Globalization is the death of western civilization. The same people who encouraged it are the ones who have encouraged and legislated suicidal western demographics. Europe is going to essentially be dead in no more than 200 or so years. That's globalization.

    I'd say the boomers and the 'greatest generation' have created as deep of a hole as X and Y could dream...and I'm not joking.

    And no offense taken ;) ...I'm thick skinned.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Your hypothesis assumes that the West is "civilized". There's plenty of debate there.

    And you're off-topic. So let's not go there. ;)

    I drove an Elantra rental all last week. Very comfy. I kept it in ECO mode most of the time, but it would leave ECO mode at 80 mph on the interstate (and that was the legal limit down in Texas, and the cops didn't seem to be showing much of any leeway).

    I only checked one tank over ~1500 miles, and that one only got 33.8 mpg. I was expecting a bit more, even though I was driving it like a rental.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    It's more civilized than what is replacing it. That's as far as I will go :shades:

    I don't know if I want a car with an "eco" mode, that seems to kill any idea of fun and adds a whiff of undeserved guilt at the same time. My old S-class has a weird consumption gauge, which I think was just hooked up to the vacuum system - it would go into red under hard acceleration etc...a "guilt meter" as I called it. I ignored it though. And 33mpg? I got that out of a diesel 7-series, and I can assure you it was more both comfortable and faster than an Elanta ;)

    Today I am going to drive my old car, which predates emissions equipment. It's not green, and I don't feel bad about that.
  • 2012aveo2012aveo Member Posts: 43
    Warren Buffet , who I believe is one of the most respected entrepreneurs in the United States invested a few hundred million dollars of his Berkshire Hathaway company’s assets into a Chinese battery and car manufacturer by the name of BYD. Mr. Buffet tends to be correct in his picks for investing Berkshire Hathaway assets. I think that if Mr. Buffet invested in BYD it should have promise delivering practical green cars or electric cars in the near future. Whether their green cars will be exiting to drive and enjoyable own that is a future issue. I think for know they should just get them to the market ASAP. Worry about the fun factor later.

    Mr. Buffet is a perfect example of an innovative American entrepreneur, who embraces green technology, a globalized world economy that includes China, and creates real wealth, not “abstract wealth”.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My 1979 Buick Park Avenue which had a 403 V-8 had a set of two lights - one red, one green, on the fuel guage. If the green light alone was on, you were getting your best fuel economy. If both the red and green light were on, you were getting average fuel economy. If the red light alone was on, you were being "too leadfooted." I pretty much ignored them and looked at them as a quirky feature.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I wonder what activated the lights in that system. In my W126 I am certain it had to do with the vacuum system, as it was directly linked to throttle pressure. It's funny such cars had those features, where the average owner couldn't have cared less about mileage. Ineffective, but I would take a 30 year old land yacht or a 20 year old German Panzerwagen over a current Chinese green car.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It was probably a vacuum system like the W126.

    Wonder what's going to happen when the Chinese people get sick of being the world's sweatshop slaves and they are tired of their environment being polluted beyond the point where it can remain inhabitable? I saw a "Dennis the Menace" cartoon where Dennis says to his dad, "If God made everything, he must live in China."
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    The people remember Tiananmen, that probably keeps a lot of unrest at bay.

    Maybe this embrace of green technology will make those in control be more sensitive to the condition and needs of the masses, and the condition of the environment. But, I am not holding my breath for that. At least they know well enough to make an attempt at keeping population growth at bay. If they managed that arena like the west, they'd be 100 times worse off.

    If Buffet is banking on that BYD thing being a success in the west at $40K, he's lost it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Don't forget Obama is tossing in $7500 on that EV from China to make it a bit more palatable. If you can get a nice EV as the BYD is advertised for $32k it would be enticing to the "got to have the latest" techno geeks and Greenies.

    I'm not waiting in line for one.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    How long is this subsidy going to exist? The BYD thing isn't exactly going to be here next week. I await its performance in first world safety measures.

    I think the geeks and greenies will stick to their Prius.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think the geeks and greenies will stick to their Prius.

    And I will continue to get stuck behind them :sick:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I love getting behind hypermilers when they merge onto a freeway. Fun times :shades:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I love getting behind hypermilers when they merge onto a freeway. Fun times

    Although fair is fair...merging behind a 190D w22 or 240D w115 is no fun either. Any 4 cylinder Chrysler minivan, obese people on scooters, etc.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Well, a prehistoric diesel car can't move any faster...a Prius can, the driver just chooses not to ;)

    Around here, the hypermilers also like to putt along at 5-10 under in the carpool lane, creating a bottleneck of others passing on the right.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    the hypermilers also like to putt along at 5-10 under in the carpool lane

    On the rare occasion that we would use the carpool lane, it seems there is some jerk plugging along below the flow of traffic. You cannot get out for miles making it a useless lane for those entitled to use it. Anyone going slower than the flow of traffic in the HOV should be ticketed and lose their HOV pass.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Scooters very rarely merge on freeways, and of those that do, how many are ridden by obese people? Also, how many 4 cylinder minivans are still operational, and how many of these are driven on freeways? I don't think you'll be stuck behind too many of either in 2010.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They made these until 1997:

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I still see these running around San Diego. They should have NEVER been allowed on the highways. Surface streets only and not that safe over 35 MPH.

    image
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