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In the spectrum of things to worry about this year, getting stuck behind a tired Toyota 4-cylinder van on an entrance ram is a low priority.
I'm not suggesting that the occasional slow vehicle that uses the freeways/expressways isn't annoying, or even a hazard, but why not mention super aggressive or impatient drivers behind the wheels of high performance cars, then? I personally don't worry about any of them, since I can only control how I drive and what I drive.
So your Prius can sound like a Formula 1 car.
Get a smudge pot going off the back bumper and you'll really have something.
I see the biggest deterent to electric cars as total cost of ownership. If they succeed in reducing the cost of ownership for, say 150,000 miles, to where it's below that of gas or diesel powered cars, I'd try to deal with my biases and consider buying an electric car. This assumes that electric cars would be reasonably fun to drive. This could all happen, eventually, especially if petroleum prices should rise sharply. Barring an unforeseen event that causes oil prices to spike for more than the short term, such as the closure of the Strait of Hormuz, I doubt whether electric cars will be competitive before 2020. If and when they do become competitive it'll be for limited local driving. Examples of this might be retirees who rarely drive outside a 25 mile radius of their home, or people who need a second or third vehicle for short commutes. An example of the latter would be someone who uses his car to drive four ir five miles to the train station, Monday-Friday, or needs a car for shopping on weekends.
To really be versatile we need a car that will run on any kind of fuel. Coal, diesel, ethanol, gasoline, wood, propane, old panty hose etc.
This exactly describes my folks, but they want a largish 5-passenger crossover. When will someone produce one of those, my mother asks me. Answer: not soon, maybe 5 years out or more.....
Of course, they want to replace their old Explorer this year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But, like Gary says, put a high torque motor on each wheel and you could have a lot of fun too.
Judging by my most recent electric bill, if it doesn't come with with panels or something to generate the juice, that TCO will be a killer.
PS
A Prius is about 6.5 cents per mile.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
250 mile range and 70 mph top speeds. Seems we've heard these claims from another Chinese manufacturer before. One that Warren Buffett invested in.
$29,995 before the Barack rebate of $7,500. Seems like a dream that won't really come true. Weight-power-electric propulsion ratio makes their 250 mile range seem out of the realm of reality. Interested in how this one goes, being sold in Indiana and Texas was it? Any available where the wild Mustangs roam over here in northern Nevada?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Or just put it on a car carrier and pull it home. Is it AWD for those Elko snow storms?
PS
I like it
I go so long between brake jobs that I forget how to do them.
Hybrids only pan out for 60% city mileage drivers. They rely on braking to recharge.
I could almost have TWO new mid level Malibus for the price of One base level Volt.
26000 miles a year would be $2650 in gas in the Malibus. A little over $100 a month for each one.
Getting that kind of range is pert-near preposterous, though. Twould make Nevada's gold mine grubbers shudder in their graves over what they could've had to haul gold in. That's what gets me, electrically-driven rigs are not even close ta being new, car nuts, it is old technology. Can't wait for someone to get a miner's grab on some real long-range battery technology. The company that legitimately comes up with that is gonna strike northern Nevada gold big-time.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
So although it's somewhat interesting new technology it just seems to be a toy for middle age men that like new electronic gadgets and does not really do much to save us from the monster that is gasoline and ICE vehicles.
Having said that I would rather Chevy did something like this than not. It gets people's thinking screwed on straight in the right direction and it signals change. To that I say Bravo!
How's that CPAP usage going, fez?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You could end up with a $41k+ white elephant. Or what ever color the Volt comes in. In CA that car will cost at least $45k with tax and license. I think the Chinese will kick our butts selling EVs.
2011 BYD e6
Being over here in northern Nevada where they pull gold and silver and ore up outta the ground for a living, I am now getting more and more interested in this new Zotye SUV from China's Zotye Motors. A 250-mile range on one charge and a 70mph top speed. Top speed of 70mph? Would this cramp any of you all's style?
I am thinking that one day I may buy a Zotye all-electrically powered SUV, because these mountains, the Ruby Mountains of NE Nevada, are the ones I look out at when I point the '08 Lancer GTS towards the hospital I work at. And everyone keeps telling me that the snows and ice are gonna hit, and when they do, I can drive a sporty compact car with radial tires and not much clearance like I have now. Elko is already at 5,060 ft.elevation. The top of Ruby Dome in the Ruby Mountains, is around 11,300 feet up. Something tells me to get ready for some serious ice and snow, and plow crews better work harder than Newman in the U.S. Post Office or I'm gonna be doomed getting around. They tell me they'll clear the main Elko streets in the city of Elko proper, but, how quickly?
Yeah, the Zotye SUV is actually starting to speak to me. All-electric and more clearance. No, I don't know that I'll absolutely need the clearance, but, well, you know. Not really up for a trip to Indiana to buy one and drive home, but, unless Texas gets some for sale, too, Indiana is where I'll have ta go. I wonder if I could buy one at Wal*Mart, Elko is blessed with a Wal*Mart.
Ruby Mountains, NE Nevada, within sight of Elko, NV
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
But yeah the Chinese can probably do it cheaper...well, the price is cheaper, maybe not the cost.
I will be scanning the net and scoping the car mags at length for any news on the BYD e6 and Zotye SUV pictured above. Reading reviews and hopefully some real life participants who have experience with the rigs. Being that no one in America has ever bought either of these rigs this might be quite difficult to do.
With my '99 Kia Sephia I simply went on data garnered from a fellow Boeing workmate. He was one of the mechanic's Supervisors at the Everett Boeing Plant. Final Assembly mechanic's Supervisor of some sort. I asked him some questions about his white 1999 Kia Sephia 5-speed sedan. I liked the bodystyle and he said he was getting low 30's for ghastly mileage going from the town we lived in, Burlington, down I-5 to Everett and back every day. It was about a 45 mile drive south on I-5. And pretty much anywhere in Washington state is mostly brutal driving on I-5. I came to hate driving on I-5. Lots of trucks that sped and shot rocks on to your windshield, etc. Miserable driving experience.
He said it was an all right drive, it provided what he wanted, better gas mileage than the Mazda 626 or whatever Mazda sedan it was that he had at that time in 1999. I respected his opinion as he was a good friend of mine, and even though Kia was new to the marketplace I felt that what he said was positive enough to go test drive one. When I found out at the end of my Sephia test drive I could score one for only $7,995 brand new (no A/C, one doesn't need A/C in Washington state, though...and no stereo/cassette player and I don't believe that Sephia had power steering even...I had ta wrench the wheel around the roundhouse at times when tight turning, you could build your arms up driving that car! ) after a $2,000 Kia manufacturer's rebate, I shuddered in delight and bought one.
Then got yelled at by my wife when I got home to Burlington. At that time Jerry Smith Kia was located in Anacortes, WA. They've since moved down the hill and across Skagit Valley to beautiful Burlington, WA. She eventually warmed up to the Sephia, but, I was really nonplussed by the 1997 Ford Escort sedan I traded in for the '99 Sephia. Not a lemon at all, just kind of...dull. And it had that boring automatic tranny that only made the car more pedestrian to me.
The violet mist 1999 Kia Sephia 5-speed sedan ended up being such a cool car that it began a love of Kia for me that grows to this very day. When they scored Peter Schreyer of Audi Motors to be their design Chief I knew that the Hyundai/Kia juggernaut was really serious about becoming the top automaker in the world. Actually, I believe truth is more that HyunKia has said they want to be No. 3 by 2012, or words somewhat to that effect. Truth be told they continue walking up the ladder of worldwide automakers. And, the way Toyota is imploding unto their very sad selves, this makes this SK dream a reality.
Now BYD and their e6 and Zotye and their SUV are not in this advantaged groupset that Kia is in now, but both are up and coming and I have studied the Chinese cars enough to know that these people will keep trying so hard and for so long that they will get there. It really reminds me of Kia and their start here. Remember, Kia was at carmaking before Hyundai even got started in the business. Twas 1944 when Kia started building bicycles (Tata Motors of India just entered my mind here, I wonder why?) and eventually cars entered their scope. Hyundai's ship started to recover from the Excel nightmare and they bought a lion's share of Kia in 1998 amidst labor strikes, the devaluating Korean won and mounting Kia financial troubles.
The rest is history and my '99 Kia Sephia just plain spoke to me while driving it that these people were passionate about building their cars. I really believe that the 5-speed tranny largely influenced my feeling about that car. No one really listened to me on the net and really here on Edmunds you can scan for old posts and see that I was one of the lone Kia soldiers on here for...years. :surprise:
So you see, I don't think the way most American Detroit metalsters think. My idea of a cool rig is not a huge Dee-troit pick-em-up truck that I can toss my 2 y/o Chow Chow in. BTW-would you hicksticks quit putting your canines in the backs of yer Dee-troit pick-em-up trucks? That is terrible on their hips and likely you're causing your dogs incredible pain inside their bodies. It's not true that what you put your dogs through doesn't affect their health. Duh. Wake up!
And look in to buying some Chinese cars and SUV's instead of what you're driving! Just kidding. Sort of.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
However, Bob Rohrman Auto Group, of Lafeyette, IN. believes that the Zotye SUV is much more than vaporware and has signed on to sell the electric SUV when it hits our shores. Rohrman Auto has selected 10 of its 36 dealerships to receive the electric SUV and expects to move a minimum of 200 of the EVs out the doors each month. The vehicles will be imported by Green Automotive and distributed to the Rohrman Auto dealerships located in Indiana and Illinois. In addition, EV Car Co. will also sell the Zotye SUV at its 14 Texas-based dealerships. Whether you believe the claims made by Zotye or remain skeptical as we do, it's seems likely that this electric SUV will board a ship headed for the U.S. soon.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/23/midwest-dealership-group-to-sell-chinese-zo- - - tye-electric-suv-by-y/
Now the wide and vast state of Texas is just a hop and a skip from our home in Willcox, AZ. In fact El Paso, TX, is on a highway sign right by Willcox as being some 260 miles more east on I-10. Never mind that Elko, NV, is only 970 miles north of Willcox, AZ, but, well you see where I'm headin' here.
I'll go to Texas and rustle up myself one of them foreign Zotye all-electric SUV's then.
"Saddle up, partner. I can get 70mpg on this beast!" - Jim Carrey from 'Dumb and Dumber' after he's traded in their Mutt-Mobile for a small little scooter.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That puts it in range of a lot of folks besides "upper middle class."
I have heard that figure. Nothing to substantiate it though. Like how much down? How many miles per year? The length of the Lease? TCO would be first thing to figure out.
Puh-Leeze. Do you know me to post RUMORS? Ha.
Volt cost and the $350 lease.
GM will lease the Volt for about $350 a month for 36 months with $2,500 due at signing. The price includes 5 years of GM's OnStar service.
GM will only sell about 10,000 Volts in its first year of production, which begins at the end of 2010 and they will initially be available only in California, New York, Michigan, Connecticut, Texas, New Jersey and the Washington, D.C. area.
"I don't think that is attractive, by itself," Toprak said, "but the lease payments they're putting out, that opens it up to virtually everybody in America."
The difference in purchase price between the Nissan and GM cars is more than satisfied by the Volt's greater flexibility, though, said James Bell, chief market analyst for Kelley Blue Book's automotive website KBB.com.
"The Leaf is not really a replacement vehicle for most households," he said, "whereas the Volt can be."
That actually doesn't sound too bad. My 2000 Intrepid ended up being $347.66/mo and $2,000 down, and that was almost 11 years ago.
The only downside though, might be the mileage limit. I think that $350/mo lease on the Volt limits you to 12,000 miles per year.
Finding someone with $2500 to put down on a car may be a stretch. Add it all up and it ain't that good of a deal. Figure $419 per month with the $2500 up front money. Another $100 per month for insurance. and you are up to 51 cents per mile before you even plug it in.
For someone that is going to put 12,000 miles a year on a car and can write it off to a business, it would be worth a shot. For me and my 7000 miles a year it would be a bad deal. The two reasons I would consider an EV would be simplicity and beating Sam out of $7500 in taxes. I don't think the Volt will fit either.
The leaf may have more room than the Volt. The Volt is slightly smaller than a Civic and rated 4 passengers. The Leaf is a 5 passenger vehicle. As it stands the Leaf would be my choice of the two. Only not on any flaky lease. With the average commute in CA the target market, being 32 miles each way the Leaf seems more practical. Unless your boss is willing to pay for charging your Volt while at work. That could get expensive.
Even at $30k, $22.5k after incentives, it's competing with cars that are in the mid teens now.
So we're still talking 50% plus markup, for an unproven Chinese car.
A Zotye SUV is probably not even Stateside yet. My wife has already told me "you'll never get another new car again", too. But I've told you my own personal search engine stories before, I will stretch and reach a bit at times when I find that I'm in a rut or a boring rig or a rig that is not pleasing me in some way.
Right now I'm fully satisfied with our 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS and since I'll never again get a new car I'd better just saddle up to the beautiful Japanese compact and enjoy the ride.
When the NE Nevada snows come I'll need to show some snowy street smarts or I'll have to test out our GEICO car insurance like it or not.
Zotye and especially their American importer are going to have to work hard to convince the American people their SUV's are both safe and reliable. They have much the same hurdles to shoot over that Hyundai and Kia needed to hurdle. The battery pack for the Zotye all-electric SUV is Warrantied for 185,000 miles, FWIW ta you.
It took months and months and months of success for Hyundai and Kia to prove their worth. We are a domestic and stubborn bunch here, leery of a lot of things automotive. I say keep an eye on the environment and keep an eye on Zotye and BYD and those from China and South Korea and Germany and Japan and the U.S. who are concerned about getting our hungry selves off of foreign oil, or U.S. derivatived oil, for that matter.
ICE is on it's way out, like it or not, car nuts. It will take a while, a long while, but the future of ICE cars and using ghastly to power our automotive dreams is dissipating as fast as Lebron James leaving Ohio.
Brett Favre is going to really quit? Bless us all and leave the NFL, Brett. Now if we can get Babwa Wa-Wa to retire and go golfing we will really gain wholeheartedly, car legions.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That depends on the price of gasoline. At current gasoline prices or somewhat higher, electric cars and hybrids aren't competitive with internal combustion engine cars in the same size category. If gasoline prices should, say, double, due to some crises, the respective cost of ownership could favor electrics. and hybrids. Maybe it would take more than a doubling in gas prices for electrics. and hybrids to be cost competitive, without tax incentives and other government subsidies.
I love ICEs, and for this reason I doubt whether I'll even consider an electric or hybrid for several years, and then only if they're as satisfying to drive as an ICE model. I'll acknowledge that since I've never even driven an electric or hybrid, I'm not objective on this matter.
Circling back to comparative costs for competing propulsion systems, one argument that does resonate with me, in favor of electrics and hybrids, is the probability for military conflict attributable to our reliance on foreign oil. If you consider the full cost of wars, in life, treasure, suffering and the environment, electrics and hybrids may be a lot more competitive than if wars are left out of the equation. This assumes there's a correlation between our reliance on foreign oil and wars. Of course, it's not just our reliance, but China's, India's and the rest of the world's.
I would not expect an EV to handle like an ICE only vehicle. The weight of the batteries will be the limiting factor.
Word is that is handles pretty darn well-:
With its all-independent suspension, rearward weight bias and sport-tuned suspension with 16-inch front and 17-inch rear alloy wheels, the Tesla Roadster whips around corners as well as anything else claiming to be a sports car. Even with the substantial added weight of the battery pack, the Roadster feels light on its tires and eagerly turns into curves.
Cornering can also be dramatic in the Roadster Sport, but for the wrong reasons. Unlike Lotus cars using the same body and chassis, the Tesla Roadster Sport has a big, heavy battery pack sitting behind the passenger compartment, changing the weight distribution. During our short time with the car, we didn't get to test it thoroughly, but there seemed to be quite a bit of understeer.
While maneuvering through a parking garage, we found the turning radius wider than expected. And as the car lacks power steering, get ready to build some arm muscle cranking the wheel around.
PS
I would buy the Lotus version. It will hold its value a lot longer.
Would you like me to post them all, or can you just admit the Tesla handles just fine, thank you.?
...which means a great handling sports car, regardless of the drive train.
We are not talking about how many blah blah blah cars you can buy for the price of a Tesla.
We are not talking about the practicality of the Tesla for Joe Public.
We are not talking about comparing the Tesla to the "VERY BEST" handling sports cars at ANY price.
But for a "sports car class" vehicle, the Tesla does not lose it's great handling just because of the electric heart of the car.
It's not a Prius. It's not a Leaf, nor is it a Mi-EV.
It's a top quality sports car, with great handling as you would expect to get in an expensive sports car, that just HAPPENS to be powered by batteries and an electric motor.
Just agree, so we can move on.
It's not "my belief" - it's the FACT of the matter, as reported by the vast majority of reviewers.
Yes it does. You put a 900 lb battery in any vehicle and it will screw up the handling. The Tesla is a Lotus Elise with a 900 lb battery and a big fat electric motor. That will detract from its handling. It is about 700 lbs heavier than the Lotus version. Put 900 lbs in the back seat of your Camry and see what happens. Not that the Camry handled good without 900 extra pounds. If you were to compare the Tesla to your Camry hybrid you would probably think it handled great.
Motor Trend did a comparison with a $155,000 Tesla Sport and a $56k Porsche Boxter. Listen to their opinions.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/convertibles/112_1004_2010_tesla_roadster_sp- ort_2011_porsche_boxster_spyder_comparison/index.html
From your same amigos at Motor Trend
The steering first: it's direct, light under way and utterly precise. Most of all, it communicates road feedback in a league ahead of the usual big-gun sports cars. It needs just small front tires -- 175/55 15 -- and they carry little weight, so their messages are free of corruption and interference. There is very gentle steady-state understeer, but this can be neutralized by an extra brush of the accelerator.
2009 Tesla Roadster Front Three Quarter View
Click to view Gallery
It was a slightly damp day and there was mud and leaf fall on the road. Not ideal for driving hard in rear-biased sports cars, where a sudden loss of asphalt friction at either end of the car could spell disaster. But the conditions were no impediment to the Tesla. The steering's information stream gave huge confidence in the front end, and the superb traction control allowed me to get right on the power as soon as the corner's exit came into view. An electric motor is far easier for a traction control system to operate on than a gasoline powertrain, so the TC delivers results with a delightfully light touch, never hesitating or overdoing its interference. Oh and it also works on the over-run to save you from the dramatic effects of regen braking on weight transfer and potential snap oversteer.
Quite a lot has changed in the Roadster over the past year and a half. To migrate from two-speed to single-speed, Tesla found ways to boost current to the motor, raising the torque so it can run a higher gear for acceleration, while increasing the max motor revs to 14,000 so its 125mph limited top speed is unaffected. The battery though is unchanged.
And:
With close to a half-ton of lithium-ion batteries aboard, the weight of which falls mainly on the rear axle, the Tesla’s handling recalls that of a Porsche 911. It’s lithe and darty through corners,
And:
Handling
The big problem when developing electric cars is storing the required energy. More batteries mean a larger range, but more batteries also make the car heavier and less enjoyable to drive. While most other car makers use traditional batteries, Tesla chooses the same technology ("lithium ion") used in laptop computers. This explains why the car is so expensive, but also means the Roadster "only" carries 450 kg of extra weight. The extra weight hardly affects the car's handling. Only when making an emergency stop the tyres noticeably have a hard job slowing down all that excess weight.
Steering is very direct and because the weight is concentrated in the centre of the car, the Roadster is very agile. Rolling or tilting in the corners is minimal, while comfort on poor road surfaces is fair. The Roadster is a suitable car for a day of leisurely cruising, but also feels at home on a race track. There this eco-vehicle has razor-sharp handling and is just as sensational to drive as a traditional sports car.
And:
In terms of handling, “fast and darty sums it up.” Tesla says that although the Roadster’s batteries add 25 percent to the weight of the elongated Elise; the weight distribution is still 40 – 60 front to rear. Jay says the Tesla Roadster’s low center of gravity and relative light weight maintain the Lotus’ slot car handling. The Roadster uses regenerative braking; as a passenger, Jay couldn’t rate the system’s feel or effectiveness.
And:
Following the technology sourcing mindset further, Tesla sourced the entire chassis from Lotus. By doing this they not only got one of the best handling chassis in the world but they also gained instant credibility by partnering with a 7 time F1 world champion constructor. The bonded aluminium chassis is a modified version of the Elise chassis and the front half looks to be identical to that of the Elise. The side sills have been lowered 50 mm to enable (relatively) easy ingress/egress which should make the Tesla more livable than the Elise. The rear subframe has been modified to hold the battery pack (900 lbs) and the motor (125 lbs) in the same position as the Elise engine to get similar handling characteristics. Following the Chapman philosophy of “simplify and add lightness”, Tesla has gone to great lengths to lower the weight and uses an all carbon fiber body to keep the weight down to 2500 lbs. The front suspension is identical to the base Elise except for the use of the AP Racing ‘big brake’ kit to handle the added weight of the Tesla.
And:
Handling is another strong suit. Like the Lotus, and pardon the cliché, the Tesla corners like a go-kart. The unassisted steering is quick and direct, and the car stays flat in curves. The ride is jarring, especially at low speeds, even though the Tesla suspension is tuned to be softer than that in the Elise. During our limited drive, however, we couldn’t tell how a rapid deceleration would affect the handling, given the heavy-weight battery pack at the rear. While currently the car lacks stability control, Tesla officials said that it’s in the works.
So, now, if your point is:
The Tesla would handle BETTER without a battery, your conclusion is CORRECT.
But if your point is:
Having a battery makes the Tesla handling SUCK, then your conclusion is COMPLETELY INCORRECT.
But then again, the Tesla is NOT your "average" Green Car.