OH - now I see where your anger at EVs is coming from.....
you think they are taking attention from diesels....
OH NOW IT'S CLEAR.
Anyway.
The Leaf will work for a LOT of city commute buyers and/or leasers. They already sold their first 20,000 of them. Not that those have been delivered, but they have been sold.
For me, whose commute in total is about 25 miles per day, the Leaf is fine. I wouldn't run the battery all the way down, so wouldn't need to charge at work, or for 7 hours at night. My off-peak electricity charges are around 7.29c per Kwh.
When I want to go to Texas, I rent a car.
The EV lineup right now is not perfect. But it will get better.
OH - now I see where your anger at EVs is coming from.....
you think they are taking attention from diesels....
Not at all. I don't think the Leaf or Volt will steal a single VW TDI sale. It will more than likely be mostly Hybrid buyers that buy them. I for one was an early proponent of electric only vehicles. I even went and test drove one of the first commercially available EVs offered. In the meantime the eco nuts in CA have driven the price of electricity beyond the practical limit for an EV. Your big IFs do not fit our situation in San Diego. Buying electricity for 7 cents per KWH is not going to happen here. You can bet those that opt for a second service for their EV, will get nicked for road tax in addition.
The EV lineup right now is not perfect. But it will get better.
You holding your breath that the laws of physics will change that much?
Researchers at the University of Central Florida’s (UCF) Advanced Materials Processing and Analysis Center (AMPAC)) have verified findings by Planar Energy that could lead to dramatic cost and performance improvements in large format batteries required for practical electric vehicles.
“AMPAC scientists independently confirmed that Planar Energy’s new generation of solid state electrolytes have ionic conductivity metrics comparable to liquid electrolytes used in traditional chemical batteries,” said Dr. M.J. Soileau, a UCF professor of optics, electrical & computer engineering and physics, who is the university’s vice president for research & commercialization.
“This fundamental materials breakthrough, coupled with our proprietary low-cost manufacturing process, will render traditional chemical batteries obsolete,” declared Scott Faris, president and CEO of Planar Energy.
“It will allow solid state battery fabrication that will enable manufacturers to increase their capacity by 200-to-300 percent, while reducing costs more than 50 percent,” he continued. “This is what the automotive industry needs to make electric vehicles practical and affordable.”
Members of Planar Energy’s research team conducted early work in solutions-based materials deposition at the former Bell Labs research center in Orlando, work that was continued at UCF focused in the field of low-cost solar films. Planar Energy has been working with UCF researchers on two Florida High Tech Corridor Council (FHTCC) matching grants to develop its technology.
“We recognized the potential for making better batteries and funded additional research for energy-storage materials,” said Faris. “The underlying technology that enabled our materials breakthrough allows for the direct printing and growth of self-assembling films. Our technology overcomes the key technical barriers that have rendered solution-based processing impractical.”
“Our partnership with UCF and the FHTCC has enabled us to validate what our team at Planar Energy had previously concluded: that we can cut the cost of manufacturing a battery by 75 percent while creating efficiency and storage-capacity improvements two or three times greater than conventional processes, most notably those involving lithium-ion.”
Following are highlights of key test results:
* Planar Energy has identified a new class of solid-state electrolytes that have conductivity of 10-4 in measured samples and 10-3 in functional battery calculations. The conductivity ranges displayed allow for high-rate batteries required in automotive applications. * Planar Energy’s solid state electrolyte materials are deposited – stacked – as thin films directly on active layers in the battery, eliminating the historic process of having to deposit films on separate substrates and then mechanically joining them. * Planar Energy’s electrolytes demonstrate the same performance level of liquid electrolytes currently used by the lithium-ion industry, but they are in a solid form factor. * Planar Energy’s change in form factor greatly simplifies the battery manufacturing process and enables existing battery chemistries to function at 95 percent of their theoretical value. * Planar Energy’s batteries will be intrinsically safe, allowing customers to further reduce packaging requirements, as well as simplify the battery management system. * Planar Energy’s batteries have virtually no self discharge, allowing them to sit for long periods of time while retaining their charge. Traditional lithium-ion batteries have high discharge rates that are problematic for automotive applications.
Traditional lithium-ion batteries have high discharge rates that are problematic for automotive applications
If Planar is onto something as good as they say. It would make an EV more practical. However that does NOT change the cost to run the EV. At my current electric cost it is still going to be at least $8.16 per 100 miles. That is the part of physics you are going to have to change. According to Nissan it takes 24 KWH of storage to go a MAXIMUM of 100 miles in the Leaf. From reports it is closer to 70 miles when you get to the ragged edge where you better find a source of electricity.
PS The excitement will be when your battery is nearly dead and you are trying to get your Leaf another mile. :P
Gary says, "According to Nissan it takes 24 KWH of storage to go a MAXIMUM of 100 miles in the Leaf. From reports it is closer to 70 miles when you get to the ragged edge where you better find a source of electricity"
Like I already said (and you ignored):
Most people won't go NEAR 70 miles on a charge and won't have to be worried about running out.
There are a select number of people whose commutes ALLOW them to buy a Leaf.
PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PUSH 100+ miles EVERY DAY ARE NOT A GOOD CANDIDATE FOR BUYING A LEAF AND SHOULD LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR AUTOMOTIVE OPTIONS.
Not yelling, so don't accuse. I'm using BOLD AND CAPS for emphasis. Not yelling.
It's up to the buyer to determine if they are a candidate - not Nissan. Not the laws of physics. The buyer has to choose.
People who choose wisely will be fine. The idiots who don't, won't.
EXACTLY the same as a gasoline car owner trying to stretch the last mile out his gas tank. Not a difference at all.
How can you type that with a straight face? Getting gas and getting someone to let you plug in your car overnight is a lot different. Gas takes a few minutes to get and it is everywhere. Charging can take up to 20 hours. You think when they get those 480Volt charging stations it will be cheap to recharge your Leaf? I figure at least double the going rate for electricity. No one is going to install such a device as a benevolent gesture. I still remember the charging stations at Costco for the EV-1. Never saw anyone use them. Probably paid for by CA tax payers.
Really, Gary? Are you REALLY missing my point by such a large margin?
The point is:
Just like it's DUMB to try to s-t-r-e-t-c-h the last ounce of gas out of a gasoline-powered car, it is equally as dumb to try and s-t-r-e-t-c-h the last kilowatt out of an electric-powered car.
Just. Don't. Put. Yourself. In. That. Situation.
I drove an EV-1 for a weekend. I conserved power and drove it how I needed to drive it, and got it home and back to work with power to spare.
When's the last time you ran out of gas, Gary? Long time, right? Because you are smart enough not to put yourself into that situation, just like I am, and just like millions of people are.
But of course SOME people will do so, and they will blame the car, the technology, Nissan, their dealer, Bush, etc.
Many will see the Tax Credit and say my commute is only 35 miles one way. The car will go 100 miles according to Nissan. Soon they would find out that is on level ground with no heat or AC. So about a mile from home the car quits on their 70 mile round trip.
Not all people look at the fine print of the reviews. Maybe if one person thinking of the Leaf reads Edmunds and starts asking questions, those of us living in the real World will save them a lot of heartache.
If your round trip commute is under 50 miles. You have cheap electricity on a night rate etc and you really think the EVs are saving the planet. Then go for it. That still will not make it a smart financial move. For less than half the price you can buy a Yaris and have enough money left over to buy gas to drive the car till the wheels fall off.
Larsb, you are using very strong language here, but really how often have you made a spontaneous trip on a commute day? I do it all the time, including yesterday.
My commute is about 15 miles round trip, and even with the puttering around I do I get to maybe 25 miles driven on a work day. But yesterday I decided I would go to Berkeley after work. The result was a 25-mile day became an 85-mile day. I have no charger at work, so in the Leaf I would have been out of luck and would have had to skip that trip instead.
The Leaf has WAY too limited a range to be much good, IMHO. When they get to a solid 150 mile range, I might get more interested. There are plenty of days I drive 80-100 miles on a work day, days on which I would be screwed with a Leaf, even though I would SEEM to be a good candidate for a Leaf with my 25-mile commute (round trip).
BTW, I thought the topic of this thread was whether green cars would be exciting to drive - has anyone driven a Leaf? Is it exciting? I would guess not, but then it's not really supposed to be. We have not yet entered the future in which there are fun green cars as well as eco-conscious green cars.
Saw my first Volt on the road the other day. I was surprised, I thought they had put it on hold, or supply was severely limited for six months or something.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Running out of juice in an EV is a game over. Running out of gas is a wait for AAA or a buddy to show up with a gas can. Running out of juice in an EV is getting towed somewhere to charge for several hours.
The use case is very different. My folks and my in-laws approximate the ateixeira's demographic above. My in-laws each have a <2 mile commute (my MIL rides her bike most of the time), and my dad's commute is a whopping 6 miles (which is how I ended up with his 10 year old '93 Accord with 60k on it). The average year round temp is ~70 degrees (like its 70 every day, not like its 40 in the winter and 100 in the summer). The whole town is maybe 15 miles so even if they had to run downtown it would be fine. Currently, my mother and MIL have hybrids and my dad and FIL have sport sedans. 1 "real car" and 1 EV would be fine for either of them if they were interested.
My point is that its not going to work for everybody. I have a 30 mile each way commute in SE MI. I would not risk it in a "100 mi range EV." Okay and I also have a lot of cars I would rather drop that kind of cash on, but that is a different story. Back to my point...its going to work for the people it works for, and the people who are really interested are going to modify their lives to make it work. Early adopters.
lileng says, "My point is that its not going to work for everybody."
Completely true. I don't think any EV maker or EV proponent has ever said or will ever say "Our EV will work for EVERY car buyer." That would be ludicrous.
My point has been on this issue in this thread:
Just because an EV is not for EVERYBODY is no good reason to "bash" the idea or the technology or to disrespect EVs or the people who like them or who promote them.
Just as not everyone can utilize a 5-passenger car, like families with more than 5 people in it who need an SUV, not everyone is a candidate for a any particular style of car. People's needs vary.
Another point is this: MANY MANY people who COULD benefit from an EV will be too scared to try it, just for that reason - the risk of being stranded. I'd also like to make sure there are no falsehoods about range being spread around.
My counterpoint to that is: With proper planning, it would be possible to use an EV in a HUGE percentage of American commutes and never leave yourself without juice.
Just like many of us have never (or at least in a very long time) been stranded with an empty gas tank, it is possible to properly plan your EV usage and never leave yourself stranded in an EV.
Here's what will happen eventually: AAA and other towing companies will come up with a way to "quick charge" an EV on the side of the highway. Maybe with a diesel generator on a truck or whatever. As EVs gain more market share, all these problems will go away.
It's similar to the beginning of automobiles - there were no gas stations. People had to plan their trips carefully to avoid getting stranded. Just like today with EVs.
Heck - even now, some people (who are not in the know about diesel cars) are still worried about buying a diesel car because of perceived problems finding a diesel pump at a gas station !!!
For EVs to take a decent chunk of the marketplace, meaning 3%-5%, these issues will be hashed out. Charging stations will have to become fairly commonplace in the big cities and on the Interstates. There is a lot of work to be done. This is just the EARLY EARLY beginning, so there is plenty of time to get it all done.
"exactly the kind of person Smart is counting on to lease and eventually buy their first electric vehicles: People who know enough about global warming, carbon footprints and electric vehicles to talk intelligently about them to the many people likely to see the cars on the road and ask their drivers about them."
In other words, she's exactly the kind of person Smart is counting on to lease and eventually buy their first electric vehicles:
I think PT Barnum would completely agree... MY, My $599 per month plus TTL will get you a real car that can haul real people. 63 miles on a charge is going backward from the Leaf and its meager 100 miles. Add the cost of TTL and a charger and you will be close to $700 per month. I could probably rent a Porsche for that kind of money. I really thought our military had a higher caliber of officer than that.
Some people enjoy contributing to cleaner air with their pocketbooks, and being on the front edge of a beneficial change
Wasting resources, is wasting resources, whether from the ground or your wallet. I thought the Leaf was a real stretch. I'll wait until the ignorant have all been served, thank you. Just like the people that paid too much to get on the Prius bandwagon.
The first Prius was a slow mover even at $20k which I was offered one for. The dealer called me several times after my test drive. It was the 2nd generation that was gouged as much as $3k by many dealers. If you remember back in 2004 the argument was you could buy a nice Camry for less than the Prius. Lots of add-ons and poor choice on packages.
With the Nissan Leaf it is strictly Internet order only. All pay the same price. When you sign up and put your money down they survey your electrical situation at home. The way the salesman told me at the Nissan place, they do not sell the Leaf before you have your charging station installed. And that part is free currently. They have delivered several. They do not expect a demo until March. All are presold currently.
Imagine swapping batteries on the spot. Certain stations could have them, and you could swap them out quickly, with some sort of assist mechanism given what they weigh.
Imagine this, on a larger scale:
It takes a couple of minutes to fill up a gas tank, yet a battery swap could be quicker.
The industry would have to standardize on a battery size/type, so service stations could carry just one kind. Large cars/trucks could even have 2 of the same battery pack, think about it.
It could work like a propane cylinder exchange as well.
I realize there are heat, weight, and cost issues to work out. But that's really what it'll take for EVs to go mainstream.
Ask yourself - is your drill cordless? Do you even still have a corded drill?
I have a rechargeable blower, edger/trimmer, sawz-all, flashlight, etc. And they all use the same batteries.
The big warehouses have electric forklifts, and lots of those rigs must weigh more than my Outback. They pull up to the battery rack, unhook and slide the old battery out, rinse and repeat for the new one. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes.
The forklifts that aren't in use during the shift just get plugged in for recharging.
Oh, keep a charged set in your garage. Yeah, that would be good too, and if the weight and bulk weren't extreme, you could haul one around with you if you were driving in the boonies.
I'd be a bit irritated if my cordless drill didn't have a second battery.
Ask yourself - is your drill cordless? Do you even still have a corded drill?
I have a rechargeable blower, edger/trimmer, sawz-all, flashlight, etc. And they all use the same batteries.
I have several cordless drills and corded drills. I also have cordless blower, chainsaw, edger trimmer etc. I have gone back to all corded tools. The cordless batteries do not last very long and are cost prohibitive to replace. Other than my flashlights & drills you can have all the cordless stuff. They all lack the power of the corded type.
Oh, keep a charged set in your garage. Yeah, that would be good too, and if the weight and bulk weren't extreme, you could haul one around with you if you were driving in the boonies.
The little Leaf Battery is 660 lbs. Not something a couple guys can handle. I would bet none of the early adopters are even considering standardization.
If they standardize the batteries in all these electric and hybrid vehicles, maybe one can open a business that stocks these batteries and delivers them roadside to rescue drivers of said electrics when the juice runs out?
The cordless batteries do not last very long and are cost prohibitive to replace
I think a Black & Decker 18v is something like $25-30, that's not too bad. And that's retail.
The secret is you buy other tools that use the same battery. I was up to 6 of them. Sure 2 are dead, but I still have 4 good batteries, and 3 chargers, too.
Cords would have to be pretty long to work on EVs. LOL
This is why EVs should target the A and B segments.
I can tell you this about the hybrid battery in my 2007 TCH:
It is still holding the same amount of charge it held on Day One - at least according to the tools at my disposal.
On the dashboard battery level indicator, I can get the battery level up to the highest position it can register, just as I could 54 months and 77,000 miles ago.
Toyota engineers did a good job when programming the battery charge conditions to maintain the health and longevity of the battery.
Nissan and GM engineers can only aspire to doing that well with their battery systems.
My Panasonic drill is about 15 years old, plenty torquey, and I'm still on the original two batteries. 100's of 3.5" deck screws into hemfir is no problem. If one battery did get tired, you can get them rebuilt at Batteries Plus.
I have about 5 Makita drills. I like them. Though they all have Nicad batteries. Still not cheap, but last a lot longer than NiMH or Li-Ion batteries. I think I bought my first Makita in the early 1980s.
A few (okay more than a few) years back I was big into electric radio control cars. They used a standard 6 cell 7.2v battery pack. Some of them could use a 7 cell 8.4v battery pack. Some nuances like the layout ("stick," "hump," or "dual") and the connectors (Associated, Koyosho or Tamiya) varied but the battery were the same...you can swap them out and start racing again. I think that idea holds some promise. A lot of battery stuff for hybrid and EVs follow some SAE standards, so that should help commonize stuff. I think the issue is battery pack size, location and configuration is going to be an issue. It will be interesting to see what is learned from these early adopters and how EVs change going forward.
Start small/light, something like a Smart ForTwo or a Toyota iQ.
I still can't get my brain around the Smart ForTwo. I can't understand how that offers economy to offset the lack of utility. The Toyota iQ is actually kind of a 4 seater and the packing seems more innovative.
I think the problem is the battery needs to be the same size for a bunch of different vehicles for it to make sense, and from a packaging standpoint, that is very very difficult.
the only affordable 5-passenger diesel option is the VW Jetta, or the Golf if you can find one.
Yes but using the same logic, the only affordable electric is ....
There are no affordable electrics.
And imagine how many diesels we would see if there was a $7500 federal give-away? Seriously. Last time I checked the incentive was $750, 1/10th as much. Why favor one technology over the other?
Heck, why not spend ALL that money on public transportation infrastructure instead and burn no imported oil at all?
With 40mpg from a $14,830 Elantra you have to ask yourself if it's really worth all the trouble to get 93 MPGe in a $41,000 Volt.
Some quick math - 12k miles per year, say you average 35mpg, that's 6.6 gallons per week in the Elantra, which seats 5 not 4. Even if the Volt never uses gas and electricity were FREE, that's about $20 bucks of gas to potentially save, or $80 or so per month. The Volt lease is $349, an Elantra lease is.... what? $179 maybe? With gas you spend maybe $260, so you're still a hundred bucks ahead even after the fed adds $7500 to the deficit and forces our kids and grandkids to pay back with interest.
I'm sorry that the humor offends you, but some times you have to take a step back and put things in perspective.
I'm actually in favor of alternatives, but the Volt is getting too much hype, and the internal combustion engine is unnecessarily demonized in the process. Go look at all the cartoons making fun of gasoline powered cars.
The joke is on US the tax payers with all the money wasted on the technology. It will be fine when it stands on its own. We are subsidizing everything you can imagine with little or nothing to show for it. That cartoon showed the futility of a green economy that is unsustainable.
Study: Obama's electric car goal hits roadblock President Barack Obama's goal of putting 1 million electric cars on U.S. roads by 2015 could run into a huge roadblock -- the American consumer.
So we have the technology, now we need to make people actually want to give up their conventional vehicles that can be refueled in 15 minutes, travel at speeds over 80 and in cold climates, and have a range of 400 miles and pay ~2x as much for a Volt, Leaf or Focus BEV. Or Tesla.
I think the early adopters are going to like what they are getting, its much easier then getting an old S10 and doing an electric car conversion. Or a Fiero, or any of the other kits out there. And i think people with a lifestyle that supports having a vehicle like that will also really enjoy it. It just isn't quite ready for prime time mass market yet. It may have its day, but I don't think its today.
I think the sales goals for the EVs are modest so they should achieve them. I hope the companies actually make money on them as well.
My guess is they will sell till the $7500 Tax Credit is pulled. That narrows the demographic to a small group of tax payers. Though with the lease it looks like the car company gets the tax benefit.
The administration has created a number of incentives for consumers to purchase electric cars, including a $7,500 tax credit to first-time buyers.
Does that mean you cannot get this credit if you have gotten an alternative energy vehicle credit in in the past? So many promises, with so many hoops to pass through. If you can write it off to your business the lease is probably the safest bet.
Everyone besides an overly-exuberant President trying to score political points with the Greenies expects the market to be modest......
Here's the rub:
Convincing skeptics that an EV would WORK for their family.
Like I have preached before, MANY MANY MILLIONS of consumers COULD USE an EV but will foolishly choose not to out of fear. Scared to be stranded. Scared to be able to find a place to charge it. Scaredy Cats.
Comments
you think they are taking attention from diesels....
OH NOW IT'S CLEAR.
Anyway.
The Leaf will work for a LOT of city commute buyers and/or leasers. They already sold their first 20,000 of them. Not that those have been delivered, but they have been sold.
For me, whose commute in total is about 25 miles per day, the Leaf is fine. I wouldn't run the battery all the way down, so wouldn't need to charge at work, or for 7 hours at night. My off-peak electricity charges are around 7.29c per Kwh.
When I want to go to Texas, I rent a car.
The EV lineup right now is not perfect. But it will get better.
you think they are taking attention from diesels....
Not at all. I don't think the Leaf or Volt will steal a single VW TDI sale. It will more than likely be mostly Hybrid buyers that buy them. I for one was an early proponent of electric only vehicles. I even went and test drove one of the first commercially available EVs offered. In the meantime the eco nuts in CA have driven the price of electricity beyond the practical limit for an EV. Your big IFs do not fit our situation in San Diego. Buying electricity for 7 cents per KWH is not going to happen here. You can bet those that opt for a second service for their EV, will get nicked for road tax in addition.
The EV lineup right now is not perfect. But it will get better.
You holding your breath that the laws of physics will change that much?
Not the laws of physics. Man's understanding of what can be done with battery storage is what will expand.
It will allow solid state battery fabrication that will enable manufacturers to increase their capacity by 200-to-300 percent, while reducing costs more than 50 percent,” he continued. “This is what the automotive industry needs to make electric vehicles practical and affordable.”
UCF Researchers Confirm Battery Breakthrough
Posted by UCF Staff on Monday, March 1, 2010
Researchers at the University of Central Florida’s (UCF) Advanced Materials Processing and Analysis Center (AMPAC)) have verified findings by Planar Energy that could lead to dramatic cost and performance improvements in large format batteries required for practical electric vehicles.
“AMPAC scientists independently confirmed that Planar Energy’s new generation of solid state electrolytes have ionic conductivity metrics comparable to liquid electrolytes used in traditional chemical batteries,” said Dr. M.J. Soileau, a UCF professor of optics, electrical & computer engineering and physics, who is the university’s vice president for research & commercialization.
“This fundamental materials breakthrough, coupled with our proprietary low-cost manufacturing process, will render traditional chemical batteries obsolete,” declared Scott Faris, president and CEO of Planar Energy.
“It will allow solid state battery fabrication that will enable manufacturers to increase their capacity by 200-to-300 percent, while reducing costs more than 50 percent,” he continued. “This is what the automotive industry needs to make electric vehicles practical and affordable.”
Members of Planar Energy’s research team conducted early work in solutions-based materials deposition at the former Bell Labs research center in Orlando, work that was continued at UCF focused in the field of low-cost solar films. Planar Energy has been working with UCF researchers on two Florida High Tech Corridor Council (FHTCC) matching grants to develop its technology.
“We recognized the potential for making better batteries and funded additional research for energy-storage materials,” said Faris. “The underlying technology that enabled our materials breakthrough allows for the direct printing and growth of self-assembling films. Our technology overcomes the key technical barriers that have rendered solution-based processing impractical.”
“Our partnership with UCF and the FHTCC has enabled us to validate what our team at Planar Energy had previously concluded: that we can cut the cost of manufacturing a battery by 75 percent while creating efficiency and storage-capacity improvements two or three times greater than conventional processes, most notably those involving lithium-ion.”
Following are highlights of key test results:
* Planar Energy has identified a new class of solid-state electrolytes that have conductivity of 10-4 in measured samples and 10-3 in functional battery calculations. The conductivity ranges displayed allow for high-rate batteries required in automotive applications.
* Planar Energy’s solid state electrolyte materials are deposited – stacked – as thin films directly on active layers in the battery, eliminating the historic process of having to deposit films on separate substrates and then mechanically joining them.
* Planar Energy’s electrolytes demonstrate the same performance level of liquid electrolytes currently used by the lithium-ion industry, but they are in a solid form factor.
* Planar Energy’s change in form factor greatly simplifies the battery manufacturing process and enables existing battery chemistries to function at 95 percent of their theoretical value.
* Planar Energy’s batteries will be intrinsically safe, allowing customers to further reduce packaging requirements, as well as simplify the battery management system.
* Planar Energy’s batteries have virtually no self discharge, allowing them to sit for long periods of time while retaining their charge. Traditional lithium-ion batteries have high discharge rates that are problematic for automotive applications.
Traditional lithium-ion batteries have high discharge rates that are problematic for automotive applications
If Planar is onto something as good as they say. It would make an EV more practical. However that does NOT change the cost to run the EV. At my current electric cost it is still going to be at least $8.16 per 100 miles. That is the part of physics you are going to have to change. According to Nissan it takes 24 KWH of storage to go a MAXIMUM of 100 miles in the Leaf. From reports it is closer to 70 miles when you get to the ragged edge where you better find a source of electricity.
PS
The excitement will be when your battery is nearly dead and you are trying to get your Leaf another mile. :P
EXACTLY the same as a gasoline car owner trying to stretch the last mile out his gas tank. Not a difference at all.
Like I already said (and you ignored):
Most people won't go NEAR 70 miles on a charge and won't have to be worried about running out.
There are a select number of people whose commutes ALLOW them to buy a Leaf.
PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PUSH 100+ miles EVERY DAY ARE NOT A GOOD CANDIDATE FOR BUYING A LEAF AND SHOULD LOOK ELSEWHERE FOR AUTOMOTIVE OPTIONS.
Not yelling, so don't accuse. I'm using BOLD AND CAPS for emphasis. Not yelling.
It's up to the buyer to determine if they are a candidate - not Nissan. Not the laws of physics. The buyer has to choose.
People who choose wisely will be fine.
The idiots who don't, won't.
How can you type that with a straight face? Getting gas and getting someone to let you plug in your car overnight is a lot different. Gas takes a few minutes to get and it is everywhere. Charging can take up to 20 hours. You think when they get those 480Volt charging stations it will be cheap to recharge your Leaf? I figure at least double the going rate for electricity. No one is going to install such a device as a benevolent gesture. I still remember the charging stations at Costco for the EV-1. Never saw anyone use them. Probably paid for by CA tax payers.
The point is:
Just like it's DUMB to try to s-t-r-e-t-c-h the last ounce of gas out of a gasoline-powered car, it is equally as dumb to try and s-t-r-e-t-c-h the last kilowatt out of an electric-powered car.
Just. Don't. Put. Yourself. In. That. Situation.
I drove an EV-1 for a weekend. I conserved power and drove it how I needed to drive it, and got it home and back to work with power to spare.
When's the last time you ran out of gas, Gary? Long time, right? Because you are smart enough not to put yourself into that situation, just like I am, and just like millions of people are.
It's not rocket science.
With a gas car it's once a week, maybe.
Even if you do get stranded, odds are you can walk to the nearest gas station. Not with an electric - a tow truck is your only option. Get AAA.
Hopefully, no one will do that.
But of course SOME people will do so, and they will blame the car, the technology, Nissan, their dealer, Bush, etc.
Many will see the Tax Credit and say my commute is only 35 miles one way. The car will go 100 miles according to Nissan. Soon they would find out that is on level ground with no heat or AC. So about a mile from home the car quits on their 70 mile round trip.
Not all people look at the fine print of the reviews. Maybe if one person thinking of the Leaf reads Edmunds and starts asking questions, those of us living in the real World will save them a lot of heartache.
If your round trip commute is under 50 miles. You have cheap electricity on a night rate etc and you really think the EVs are saving the planet. Then go for it. That still will not make it a smart financial move. For less than half the price you can buy a Yaris and have enough money left over to buy gas to drive the car till the wheels fall off.
My commute is about 15 miles round trip, and even with the puttering around I do I get to maybe 25 miles driven on a work day. But yesterday I decided I would go to Berkeley after work. The result was a 25-mile day became an 85-mile day. I have no charger at work, so in the Leaf I would have been out of luck and would have had to skip that trip instead.
The Leaf has WAY too limited a range to be much good, IMHO. When they get to a solid 150 mile range, I might get more interested. There are plenty of days I drive 80-100 miles on a work day, days on which I would be screwed with a Leaf, even though I would SEEM to be a good candidate for a Leaf with my 25-mile commute (round trip).
BTW, I thought the topic of this thread was whether green cars would be exciting to drive - has anyone driven a Leaf? Is it exciting? I would guess not, but then it's not really supposed to be. We have not yet entered the future in which there are fun green cars as well as eco-conscious green cars.
Saw my first Volt on the road the other day. I was surprised, I thought they had put it on hold, or supply was severely limited for six months or something.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Again, this only further limits the target buyer demographic.
Rich folks, who live near their work, and live in mild climates, and have another car.
They will still sell, BTW.
The use case is very different. My folks and my in-laws approximate the ateixeira's demographic above. My in-laws each have a <2 mile commute (my MIL rides her bike most of the time), and my dad's commute is a whopping 6 miles (which is how I ended up with his 10 year old '93 Accord with 60k on it). The average year round temp is ~70 degrees (like its 70 every day, not like its 40 in the winter and 100 in the summer). The whole town is maybe 15 miles so even if they had to run downtown it would be fine. Currently, my mother and MIL have hybrids and my dad and FIL have sport sedans. 1 "real car" and 1 EV would be fine for either of them if they were interested.
My point is that its not going to work for everybody. I have a 30 mile each way commute in SE MI. I would not risk it in a "100 mi range EV." Okay and I also have a lot of cars I would rather drop that kind of cash on, but that is a different story. Back to my point...its going to work for the people it works for, and the people who are really interested are going to modify their lives to make it work. Early adopters.
Completely true. I don't think any EV maker or EV proponent has ever said or will ever say "Our EV will work for EVERY car buyer." That would be ludicrous.
My point has been on this issue in this thread:
Just because an EV is not for EVERYBODY is no good reason to "bash" the idea or the technology or to disrespect EVs or the people who like them or who promote them.
Just as not everyone can utilize a 5-passenger car, like families with more than 5 people in it who need an SUV, not everyone is a candidate for a any particular style of car. People's needs vary.
Another point is this: MANY MANY people who COULD benefit from an EV will be too scared to try it, just for that reason - the risk of being stranded. I'd also like to make sure there are no falsehoods about range being spread around.
My counterpoint to that is: With proper planning, it would be possible to use an EV in a HUGE percentage of American commutes and never leave yourself without juice.
Just like many of us have never (or at least in a very long time) been stranded with an empty gas tank, it is possible to properly plan your EV usage and never leave yourself stranded in an EV.
Here's what will happen eventually: AAA and other towing companies will come up with a way to "quick charge" an EV on the side of the highway. Maybe with a diesel generator on a truck or whatever. As EVs gain more market share, all these problems will go away.
It's similar to the beginning of automobiles - there were no gas stations. People had to plan their trips carefully to avoid getting stranded. Just like today with EVs.
Heck - even now, some people (who are not in the know about diesel cars) are still worried about buying a diesel car because of perceived problems finding a diesel pump at a gas station !!!
For EVs to take a decent chunk of the marketplace, meaning 3%-5%, these issues will be hashed out. Charging stations will have to become fairly commonplace in the big cities and on the Interstates. There is a lot of work to be done. This is just the EARLY EARLY beginning, so there is plenty of time to get it all done.
Smart Makes First U.S. Delivery of ForTwo ED to a Retail Customer (Green Car Advisor)
I think PT Barnum would completely agree... MY, My $599 per month plus TTL will get you a real car that can haul real people. 63 miles on a charge is going backward from the Leaf and its meager 100 miles. Add the cost of TTL and a charger and you will be close to $700 per month. I could probably rent a Porsche for that kind of money. I really thought our military had a higher caliber of officer than that.
Some people enjoy contributing to cleaner air with their pocketbooks, and being on the front edge of a beneficial change.
Wasting resources, is wasting resources, whether from the ground or your wallet. I thought the Leaf was a real stretch. I'll wait until the ignorant have all been served, thank you. Just like the people that paid too much to get on the Prius bandwagon.
When did that happen, exactly? The Prius was about $19K when it came out - far below the average price of a new car.
There were RARE instances of greedy dealers marking up MSRP, but even at $21K, that Prius was still below average on price.
With the Nissan Leaf it is strictly Internet order only. All pay the same price. When you sign up and put your money down they survey your electrical situation at home. The way the salesman told me at the Nissan place, they do not sell the Leaf before you have your charging station installed. And that part is free currently. They have delivered several. They do not expect a demo until March. All are presold currently.
Imagine swapping batteries on the spot. Certain stations could have them, and you could swap them out quickly, with some sort of assist mechanism given what they weigh.
Imagine this, on a larger scale:
It takes a couple of minutes to fill up a gas tank, yet a battery swap could be quicker.
The industry would have to standardize on a battery size/type, so service stations could carry just one kind. Large cars/trucks could even have 2 of the same battery pack, think about it.
It could work like a propane cylinder exchange as well.
I realize there are heat, weight, and cost issues to work out. But that's really what it'll take for EVs to go mainstream.
Ask yourself - is your drill cordless? Do you even still have a corded drill?
I have a rechargeable blower, edger/trimmer, sawz-all, flashlight, etc. And they all use the same batteries.
The forklifts that aren't in use during the shift just get plugged in for recharging.
They could even lease and not own the batteries. That might make owning an extra set affordable.
I'd be a bit irritated if my cordless drill didn't have a second battery.
I have a rechargeable blower, edger/trimmer, sawz-all, flashlight, etc. And they all use the same batteries.
I have several cordless drills and corded drills. I also have cordless blower, chainsaw, edger trimmer etc. I have gone back to all corded tools. The cordless batteries do not last very long and are cost prohibitive to replace. Other than my flashlights & drills you can have all the cordless stuff. They all lack the power of the corded type.
The little Leaf Battery is 660 lbs. Not something a couple guys can handle. I would bet none of the early adopters are even considering standardization.
I think a Black & Decker 18v is something like $25-30, that's not too bad. And that's retail.
The secret is you buy other tools that use the same battery. I was up to 6 of them. Sure 2 are dead, but I still have 4 good batteries, and 3 chargers, too.
Cords would have to be pretty long to work on EVs. LOL
This is why EVs should target the A and B segments.
It is still holding the same amount of charge it held on Day One - at least according to the tools at my disposal.
On the dashboard battery level indicator, I can get the battery level up to the highest position it can register, just as I could 54 months and 77,000 miles ago.
Toyota engineers did a good job when programming the battery charge conditions to maintain the health and longevity of the battery.
Nissan and GM engineers can only aspire to doing that well with their battery systems.
20,000 orders in the US:
Nissan Leaf Production to Reach 10,000 Units a Month by April (Green Car Advisor)
I think that idea holds some promise. A lot of battery stuff for hybrid and EVs follow some SAE standards, so that should help commonize stuff. I think the issue is battery pack size, location and configuration is going to be an issue.
It will be interesting to see what is learned from these early adopters and how EVs change going forward.
Start small/light, something like a Smart ForTwo or a Toyota iQ.
I still can't get my brain around the Smart ForTwo. I can't understand how that offers economy to offset the lack of utility. The Toyota iQ is actually kind of a 4 seater and the packing seems more innovative.
I think the problem is the battery needs to be the same size for a bunch of different vehicles for it to make sense, and from a packaging standpoint, that is very very difficult.
Making fun of them ain't gonna make them go away.
And why on EARF would someone WANT to make fun of new technology that's going to be taking us forward into the future?
I just don't get the appeal of making fun of electric cars.
Electric cars competed before and failed.
I welcome alternatives, but I think there are better ones short term (diesel) and long term (fuel cells).
Right now the only affordable 5-passenger diesel option is the VW Jetta, or the Golf if you can find one.
There are as many EV options as affordable diesel sedans. That's just sad, America.
Comparing "electric cars of 100 years ago" to today's Volt and Leaf is a laughable comparison, and everyone should know that to be obvious.
Yes but using the same logic, the only affordable electric is ....
There are no affordable electrics.
And imagine how many diesels we would see if there was a $7500 federal give-away? Seriously. Last time I checked the incentive was $750, 1/10th as much. Why favor one technology over the other?
Heck, why not spend ALL that money on public transportation infrastructure instead and burn no imported oil at all?
With 40mpg from a $14,830 Elantra you have to ask yourself if it's really worth all the trouble to get 93 MPGe in a $41,000 Volt.
Some quick math - 12k miles per year, say you average 35mpg, that's 6.6 gallons per week in the Elantra, which seats 5 not 4. Even if the Volt never uses gas and electricity were FREE, that's about $20 bucks of gas to potentially save, or $80 or so per month. The Volt lease is $349, an Elantra lease is.... what? $179 maybe? With gas you spend maybe $260, so you're still a hundred bucks ahead even after the fed adds $7500 to the deficit and forces our kids and grandkids to pay back with interest.
I'm sorry that the humor offends you, but some times you have to take a step back and put things in perspective.
I'm actually in favor of alternatives, but the Volt is getting too much hype, and the internal combustion engine is unnecessarily demonized in the process. Go look at all the cartoons making fun of gasoline powered cars.
LEAF: 87
Ramping up slowly...
President Barack Obama's goal of putting 1 million electric cars on U.S. roads by 2015 could run into a huge roadblock -- the American consumer.
So we have the technology, now we need to make people actually want to give up their conventional vehicles that can be refueled in 15 minutes, travel at speeds over 80 and in cold climates, and have a range of 400 miles and pay ~2x as much for a Volt, Leaf or Focus BEV. Or Tesla.
I think the early adopters are going to like what they are getting, its much easier then getting an old S10 and doing an electric car conversion. Or a Fiero, or any of the other kits out there. And i think people with a lifestyle that supports having a vehicle like that will also really enjoy it. It just isn't quite ready for prime time mass market yet. It may have its day, but I don't think its today.
I think the sales goals for the EVs are modest so they should achieve them. I hope the companies actually make money on them as well.
The administration has created a number of incentives for consumers to purchase electric cars, including a $7,500 tax credit to first-time buyers.
Does that mean you cannot get this credit if you have gotten an alternative energy vehicle credit in in the past? So many promises, with so many hoops to pass through. If you can write it off to your business the lease is probably the safest bet.
Here's the rub:
Convincing skeptics that an EV would WORK for their family.
Like I have preached before, MANY MANY MILLIONS of consumers COULD USE an EV but will foolishly choose not to out of fear. Scared to be stranded. Scared to be able to find a place to charge it. Scaredy Cats.
That's a huge hurdle for EVs to overcome.