Will Green Cars Be Exciting To Drive And Enjoyable To Own?

gagrice

You should have read through to the end. It did not win. It is an overpriced techno geek millionaire feel good car. Not even in the league with a sports car costing $100,000 less. Face it you are in the techno geek realm. Not the real world of sports cars. I'll take the Porsche any day.

First Place: Porsche Boxster Spyder
Last year, the Cayman S wowed us enough to make it our inaugural Best Driver's Car. Guess what? The Boxster Spyder may very well have eclipsed it-in performance and looks.

Second Place: Tesla Roadster Sport
We're impressed. The Tesla is now a genuine car to reckon with on the world stage, despite its extraordinary price and limited range. Now if only it could better communicate its handling intentions.

What they are saying, the Tesla is not that great handling. They just used about a million words more than required to let the people that have bought a Tesla down. I am not saying it would not be fun to drive or that it would not handle better than my Sequoia. I am saying it is a poor bang for the buck sports car. You can do much better for a lot less. I will repeat. It is a celebrity feel good car. Like driving a Prius around the corner at the Oscars after you were let out of your Maybach.

larsb

Did you just ignore my last post?

You musta missed this post Gary

gagrice

Bottom line. If you are a millionaire there are several green cars that may satisfy.

http://www.lightningcarcompany.co.uk/qanda.php#q1

From Porsche:

http://techcrunch.com/2010/07/26/porsche-revving-up-all-electric-sports-car/

For fun practical driving, something like this would suit me better. No worry about some idiot banging his door into my $150k sports car. Just a fun EV runabout.

http://www.tazzari-zero.com/index.asp?lan=eng&pag=The%20streets%20of%20New%20Yor- - k#content



PS
The Leaf will be less expensive and a better company backing it up.

iluvmysephia1

and it's $31,000 price tag are a good start. I've been reading of late on a particular "green car" website of the BO Fed. tax rebate on green cars of $7,500 being subject to personal review of the Fed's. In other words, not everyone qualifies at all times for the full $7,500 Fed. tax rebate.

Does this sound copasetic, lars? Is this really true? I mean, shouldn't this be simple math, ya pick out yer Mitsubishi i-MiEV, you discuss with the dealer's financing department how ya want to pay for the car and the finance person tells you that you qualify for the $7,500 Fed. tax rebate. Done deal?

Not so easy? If so, why not? Now I have heard someone say you get the $7,500 at tax time. Not at purchase time. OK, fine. But I've also read where Leaf and Volt purchasers that are choosing leases are getting the $7,500 rebate figured right in to their lease deals up front.

But they're all getting the full $7,500 figured in, right?

gagrice

It should be so simple. First off: presently the only vehicle being sold that qualifies for the EV tax credit is the Tesla Roadster. The Volt will be on the list for 2011 and hopefully the Leaf. Not on the list and there is no credit. The $7500 is a maximum figure based on the capacity of the battery.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/article/0,,id=219867,00.html

To get your $7500 back you have to fill out tax form 8834 with your itemized 1040 forms. The vehicle will have to be certified by the IRS as qualifying. And as close as I can tell the program is phased out the end of 2011. Now here is a kicker for all you leasing people. You don't get the tax credit:

In addition to certification, the following requirements must
be met to qualify for the credit:
● You are the owner of the vehicle. If the vehicle is leased,
only the lessor and not the lessee, is entitled to the credit;

So when you lease that Volt from Chevy they get the $7500 tax credit.

If your tax liability is less than the $7500 too bad so sad:

Line 22
If you cannot use part of the personal portion of the credit
because of the tax liability limit, the unused credit is lost. The
unused personal portion of the credit cannot be carried back
or forward to other tax years.


As I have posted before the AMT can also get in the way of your getting the tax credit.

So if you fit into the narrow window left open for the tax credit, great. If not, it sounded good when the Congress passed the Energy Bill.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8834.pdf

If you lease the Volt the buyout will be based on the $41k unless GM shares the tax credit with you. Not likely. Then you will probably be happy to give it back after 3 years.

PS
The Volt is considered a Plug-in Hybrid by the IRS.

gagrice

Bio-Bug: Car run on human waste is launched

The Bio-Bug has been converted by a team of British engineers to be powered by biogas, which is produced from human waste at sewage works across the country.

They believe the car is a viable alternative to electric vehicles.

Excrement flushed down the lavatories of just 70 homes is enough to power the car for 10,000 miles - the equivalent of one average motoring year.

This conversion technology has been used in the past but the Bio-Bug is Britain's first car to run on methane gas without its performance being reduced.

It can power a conventional two litre VW Beetle convertible to 114mph.

Mohammed Saddiq, of sustainable energy firm GENeco, which developed the prototype, claimed that drivers "won't know the difference".

He said: "Previously the gas hasn't been clean enough to fuel motor vehicles without it affecting performance.

"However, through using the latest technology our Bio-Bug drives like any conventional car and what's more it uses sustainable fuel.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7929191/Bio-Bug-Car-run-on-human-waste-- is-launched.html

Not much chance we will run out of fuel of this sort for a while. Here also in the NYT

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/meet-bio-bug-a-vw-beetle-that-runs-on- -human-waste/?src=mv

larsb

Gary says, "Now here is a kicker for all you leasing people. You don't get the tax credit:"

That's not news. Same thing happened with hybrid car leases back when the tax credit was available for them.

You don't get a tax credit without purchasing the item.

Duh.....

They DO need to remedy the Volt being a "plug-in hybrid" though, because it's not. It's technically an Extended-Range EV.
.
.
That's pat of the reason they are making the lease so affordable....$350 per month hits most of the middle class.

gagrice

I wanted it to be clear that YOU do not get the Tax Credit when you lease an EV or Plug-in hybrid under the new regime. It could be why GM is pushing for leases with their Volt. The alternative is to pay $41k+ and take your chances on the Tax Credit. That will also make the buyout at the end of the lease much higher. No free lunch.

You are going to have to take up your personal battle on the Volt not being a Plug-In Hybrid with the IRS and EPA. They make the rules that you love so much.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxphev.shtml

larsb

Really has nothing to do with regimes. The hybrid tax credit was the same under the "prior" regime.

I already told them they are wrong about it. They are directly defying GM by calling it a PHEV. It's NOT one, at all.

It's technically an EREV.

The Volt, however, is considered an extended-range electric vehicle (E-REV). It has a very powerful all-electric 161-horsepower 45KW (100 KW peak) motor that is the only motor to power the car at all times.


Single mode of propulsion = non-hybrid. Only powered by the electric motor, which is in turn ALWAYS powered by the battery pack. Never by anything else.

gagrice

Aug 06
Majority of Chevy Dealers Marking Up Volts, GM Bans Out of State Sales

Of those 362, 60% were told by the dealer they would have to pay a mark-up over MSRP. The largest group among those were those told they would have to pay at least $10,000 over MSRP, representing 37% of that group.

“The dealers are independent, for better and, in very rare cases, for worse,” he said. “There are some who have moved in the opposite direction of our request. In response, what we’ve done is to urge customers who have contacted us about pricing discrepancies to shop around, because there are dealerships in their area that are honoring M.S.R.P.”

GM sent a strong message to dealers to do the right thing and sell the Volt at MSRP. The invoice price is $1800 lower so there is profit built in.

Through an interview with a California dealership the Times found out another new piece of information. GM had banned out-of-state sales.

“For a year now, we’ve had people contacting us from out of state, trying to make a purchase, but G.M. told us in-state-driver sales only,” Paul Galassi, Internet manager for Novato Chevrolet, north of San Francisco told the Times. “It’s sad, honestly, because as a dealership you hate to turn anybody away.”

Considering that early adopters are spread across the nation and the Volt will only go on sale in seven states, attempts to purchase a Volt out-of-state is likely to be robust.

http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/06/majority-of-chevy-dealers-marking-up-volts-gm-bans- -out-of-state-sales/

And I was hoping to get one under invoice. :sick:
Another fat cat sucker car. For those with more money than brains.

larsb

This really belongs in the "will the Chevy Volt succeed?" forum....

gagrice

Your probably right. I cannot imagine it being fun to drive.

fezo

And I was hoping to get one under invoice.

Give it a year. By then you may gets incentives that bring it lower than that.

hpmctorque

Is it possible for cars that don't emit deep-throated engine sounds to be exciting to drive and enjoyable to own?

stever

Sure, just get an mp3 file of a Harley with a cutout switch, and play it in your AUX gizmo.

Just keep the windows rolled up. :P

bumpy

http://www.evalbum.com/035.html

hpmctorque

Great idea! Tesla, Nissan and Chevy should feature MP3 players, plus a choice of several performance auto sounds (Harley, Mustang, Ferrari, Hemi, Chevy small block) as a low cost option. It might just charge up sales. Sorry for that corny, unfunny, puny pun. That explains why puns have been called the lowest form of humor.

And, oh, window wide open, not closed, with decibels cranked up to glass rattling level. That would crank up the fun-to-drive factor, though. On second thought, maybe not, since the power sucked by the amplifiers would reduce driving range.

gagrice

I really like that Datsun PU EV conversion. I had a 1970 Datsun PU. One of the best vehicles I have ever owned. It would be great to have one electric powered for a runabout. More practical than the $30k plus EVs headed to America.

I'm sure CA does not like US converting older vehicles to Electric. No smog revenue and cheap licensing. A great way to beat the system.

iluvmysephia1

we should be thinking, right, how ta beat the "system?"

I'm sure CA does not like US converting older vehicles to Electric. No smog revenue and cheap licensing. A great way to beat the system.

Sounds perfectly fine to me. I mean, hasn't the Fed.govt. built enough aircraft carriers with our hard-fought fed. tax monies by now, anyway? If we can duck out of a government tax or fee where we can, take that opportunity and run towards the basket with it and gently kiss it off the glass for another two points.

That's what I'm sayin'.

hpmctorque

No!

iluvmysephia1

guys, I got my wife to let slip out that maybe we can get a new car in only 6 years.Whoo-hoo! I do all the car researching then go about trying to convince her of new ideas I get, because she is not always very...ummm...receptive to my car-nutty ideas that I am pert-near almost constantly coming up with. Ahh, to have Jay Leno's cash flow and airplane hangars to store in!

Here's yet another pic of one particular new rig I have my researchin' eyes on. It is made by Zotye Motors of China and yep, it's comin' to the U.S. Perhaps by the end of 2010, even. With a price of only $29,995 and an all-electric powertrain, this little buggy would probably work out better for us than the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS and its rice-racer wrap-around bodykit (albeit a very beautiful design) getup.

I'm thinking in terms of how much snow we are going to have to get used to driving in here in NE Nevada.

nippononly

You want to be in the SNOW in NE NEVADA when your first Chinese car breaks down on you??????

Nissan will have all all-electric versions of its crossovers in no time, you just wait and see! ;-)

iluvmysephia1

they're Nissan's nippononly! This is a Zotye. Remember, FWIW this SUV will be subject to BO's $7,500 tax rebate, it has a range of 250 miles, and Zotye is Warranty-ing the battery setup for 185,000 miles. Indeed, Warranty service would have to be negotiated fully to our satisfaction. And there are less parts to break on an all-electric. Have a little faith, nippon.

ateixeira

OK, but promise us you'll wait to see crash test results before you take the dive.

gagrice

I would not count on that $7500 too much. It was put in place to encourage people to buy the Volt. GM will reap the benefit of our tax dollars. The only vehicles approved are the Tesla Roadster and the Volt. Where is the Leaf?

ateixeira

AFAIK Leaf owners will get it too. That little Mitsu electric as well. (iMiev?)

Plus there are incentives in several states, too.

gagrice

I would assume they will be on the list. Each manufacturer has to submit the car for determination of the tax credit amount. At this point the only one being sold is the Tesla Roadster. Of course not many will be able to handle the $140k price tag now on that vehicle. Not sure if the credit will mean much or even be available in the higher brackets. Most will get nailed with AMT.

ateixeira

Yep, that's it - they're not for sale yet.

Every article I've seen on the Leaf and i-Miev mentions that tax credit. I'm sure they'll be added once they're for sale.

iluvmysephia1

I read of an outfit in nearby (475 miles south of us) Las Vegas that an article said is going to be offering the Zotye SUV. No, I'll wait and see the crash test results. And I have 6 years until I can get a new car, anyway.

We all should know a lot more by then about all-electrics and how they're going to work out, charging them up at home, on the road, at Wal*Mart, etc. Who knows, maybe the Zotye will be sold at our local Wal*Mart by then!

The 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS is a great ICE vehicle to drive for several years. May need to get some snow tires in a few months, though.

iluvmysephia1

another electric vehicle concept.

The Kia Pop. It's the Kia Electric Pop, an all-electric urban three-seater about 10 feet long, slightly longer than the upcoming 2011 Scion iQ.



Its goal, says Kia, is to bring "innovative design chic and dramatic styling to the city car segment," although the company hasn't released any significant details on the Pop's electric drivetrain. One unusual design feature: side windows that bulge out from the doors.

The Pop is likely to have a lithium-ion battery pack and a single electric motor driving a pair of wheels. At this point, we don't even know whether those are the front or the rear.

The front bench seat holds a driver and one passenger, with space for a third rider in a single central seat behind that. The Pop's single-piece windshield and panoramic glass roof shows an interior of purple and chrome.

It uses the now-expected LED lights all round, and its charging point is centered on the rear bumper.

The Pop Concept follows the sleek Kia Ray plug-in hybrid sedan concept that debuted at the 2010 Chicago Auto Show in February. That car's lithium-ion battery was projected to give more than 50 miles of electric range. The Ray concept sported a glass roof as well. Love those glass roofs!

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1048407_first-look-kia-electric-pop-concept-- - - - - - - - - - for-paris-motor-show

For those with failing memories, here's the Kia Ray electric vehicle concept that came out in February of 2010.



When they told former Audi Design Chief Peter Schreyer that he would have free reign to design away at Kia Motors they weren't a joshin', eh? :shades:

That Kia Ray's gotta be on my radar screen somewhere.

ateixeira

Saw that Pop concept on Autoblog, and I love it - as a concept. Way too far out there for production, but a very neat concept exercise.

The Ray looks more production-ready. But I bet we'll see hybrid Optima instead, since they already have the Sonata hybrid.

fintail

Less nice from the front



My fave layzeeee design, huge extended light assemblies.

I've seen that rear end treatment before somewhere , but I can't place it.

ateixeira

Looks like an angry Pokemon.

I like the LED fogs, though. Neat. And those rims.

fintail

The Pokemon face is an affliction plaguing certain vehicles right now.

The wheels prove there's an Audi person lurking around. I wonder if LEDs will be the tailfins of the 21st century.

ateixeira

Perhaps. I laughed when Jeremy Clarkson called them "fairy lights".

lemko

Looks like a mutant Dodge Intrepid to me.

hpmctorque

The Pop looks like a creative design, and could be a neat city runabout. based on the picture, I prefer it to the Smart. I'd only consider one if it had a gasoline engine, though, and good driving dynamics.

gagrice

Diesels greener than battery cars, says Swiss gov report

Get a TDi estate not an EV, and save the planet!

Swiss boffins have mounted an investigation into the largely unknown environmental burdens of electric cars using lithium-ion batteries, and say that the manufacturing and disposal of batteries presents no insurmountable barriers to electric motoring. However, their analysis reveals that modern diesel cars are actually better for the environment than battery ones.

The revelations come in a new report issued by Swiss government research lab EMPA, titled Contribution of Li-Ion Batteries to the Environmental Impact of Electric Vehicles. The Swiss boffins, having done some major research into the environmental burdens of making and disposing of li-ion batteries - to add to the established bodies of work on existing cars - say that battery manufacture and disposal aren't that big a deal. However, in today's world, with electricity often made by burning coal or gas, a battery car is still a noticeable eco burden:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/31/battery_cars_destroy_the_world/

larsb

I read that report.

It uses a lot of assumptions.

Too much is "not yet known" to convincingly state one way or another which is cleaner.

We know one thing for sure: Around the world, electricity generation is getting cleaner and cleaner every day.

So five years from now, when A LOT MORE electricity is generated by wind, solar, and wave power, and even cleaner coal plants, the numbers will change.

Right now, I'd say it's premature to declare either of them cleaner than the other. They are all (EV, PHEV, Hybrids, Diesel) better than most or almost all standard ICE gasoline vehicles.

gagrice

We know one thing for sure: Around the world, electricity generation is getting cleaner and cleaner every day.

In the fast growing countries like China, they are building 4 conventional coal fired plants for every clean coal plant. We are still at 50% coal fired. Most are relatively clean compared to non scrubber coal plants of the past. Wind and solar are barely a blip on the screen. And will be for the foreseeable future. They are still not close to cost effective for most of the World. Solar is still a boutique power source for the elite in a very limited area of the USA.

I know, I know there are cheap leases on Solar. They are here in San Diego as well. Until our utility allows us to sell back it is not cost effective. A friend was installing them and just quit to take a better job. He was only getting about 20 hours a week, due to permit holdups and supply of the solar cells being sporadic. You are one of the rare cases of it working for you.

larsb

You are correct that solar only applies to SOME areas of the country. But those areas can eventually do a HUGE portion of their power with solar if the utilities have the courage to do it. It's a financial windfall for the utility company - it's FAR cheaper to run/operate a solar power plant than a coal power plant.

As for the projected growth of renewable power:

Well, in Scottsdale, AZ right now, there are 2 solar permits being issued every work day according to a radio story I heard last week. That's 520 new homes or businesses getting solar this year in one fairly small city, population 245,500.

There is a solar power plant going up in Gila Bend AZ which can power 70,000 homes at capacity, expected online in less than 2 years.

The world's largest solar power plant will probably be cleared for construction in California. At 1GW it is the size of a nuclear power plant and nearly doubles the US installed base of commercial-scale solar power. It will take 6-years, $6-billion and 7,000-acres.

So the clean power is coming, which bolsters my point that at least in the Southwest USA, electricity generation will be getting cleaner and cleaner in coming years.

ateixeira

I'll take one step back, and make an observation - ever notice how competitive the hybrid vs. diesel arguments are?

I say both have their place.

Around me diesel costs as much as liquid gold, about 20% more than gas, so the 20-40% savings are basically eaten right up.

The US taxes diesel too much, I think.

gagrice

The taxes are the biggest difference. Here in San Diego diesel is currently priced between RUG and mid grade.

I would really like to justify a diesel or EV. The more I look the less I like what I am seeing. I spent more for auto insurance on my Sequoia last year than gas. So getting 15 MPG is really not a big deal. It is all the other cost of owning that is a problem. It will be more so with EVs and Volt type vehicles. My guess is a Volt will be more expensive to insure than my big SUV. My Passat TDI was more than my Suburban. So those are all things to take into consideration when buying a vehicle. Fuel may be the cheapest part of the equation.

ateixeira

That's correct, fuel is only a tiny portion of ownership costs.

I'd favor a "basement" price, i.e. a tax that only applied to keep the price of gas above a set level, that would disappear if oil prices soared.

Around me diesel costs more than even premium gas. It is funny to see the fancy Benzes in line behind a contractor's dually.

gagrice

larsb

Gary, are you really making fun of the limitations of electric cars, or did this cartoon just strike you as funny?

Because in reality, there are fast charging systems for these cars which can make charging a fairly quick event.

About 30 minutes for the Leaf.
About 4 hours for the Volt - not that "quick" in that case, but with the Volt, a dead battery does not mean you are stranded.

Anyone who ends up stranded with a dead electric car battery will be merely a victim of their own BAD PLANNING.

Same with people who run out of gas in a car. That hasn't happened to me in about 20 years, because I figured out how to make sure I never run out. Same thing can be done with an electric vehicle.

gagrice

Yes I did think it was funny.

And where do you think you will find a 480Volt Quick charge station? If you have the home 220 V quick charge installed it is still a 7 hour time frame. And just plugging it into a wall will take 20 hours.

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/faq/list/charging#/leaf-electric-car/-

We have already discussed the folly of an EV with the cost of electricity. In your case with solar panels it could be justified. Though I am not sure you can get the 7 hour charge system installed to your solar panels. And trying to fast charge the Leaf during the day while running the AC may be a challenge also. Not to mention the cost being over double a comparable econobox sized car.

Let's add it up:
Car $26,000 after tax credit if you do not get nailed with AMT.
Charger about $3000 installed.

If you take the Nissan lease offer it works out for someone in San Diego to right at $620 per month when you add the initial payment, Tax, license, delivery and charger divided by 36 payments. PLUS about $86 per month in added electricity. So figure $700 per month for leasing the Leaf.

I can lease the much nicer VW Sportswagen TDI with initial payment TTL for about $383 per month. At $6 per gallon for diesel the 36,000 miles would cost me an additional $150 per month. For a total of $533 per month. About $170 per month less than leasing the Leaf. And you have a 700 mile range before you have to fill with diesel. Where after about 70 mile in the Leaf you are getting nervous about making it home.

No way the Leaf or Volt can be justified financially. Volt is much worse.

ateixeira

I agree you'll never really break even, but isn't the lease $349 or something like that? Are you adding the cost of the high voltage charger?

Don't forget some states add more incentives, so that could offset the rapid charger.

Still, you're getting 1/4th the range for twice the money, and you're right about the scarcity of chargning stations and the amount of time it would take.

Electrics can only really satisfy a small niche - urban commuters who have access to other longer-range cars, perhaps even those with charging stations at their garage at work.

gagrice

I agree you'll never really break even, but isn't the lease $349 or something like that? Are you adding the cost of the high voltage charger?

The basic lease on the cheap model is $349 on the high end model it is $379. I included TTL and charger installation divided by 36. I don't think a commuter would be able to use the vehicle without the home charger or a 220 Volt charger at work. 20 hours to recharge on 110 Volt would be a losing proposition if you had a commute of any distance. Charging in San Diego for someone driving the full 12,000 miles will cost about $1000 per year.

IF you have a home Charger. IF you buy it out right with the $7500 tax Credit. AND IF you live where they have an overnight electric rate in the 11 cents range. And if you have about a 30 mile each direction commute, it could be for you.

PS
Driving a Prius at the current gas price would be about $250 a year less than our electric rates driving the same distance in the Leaf.

ateixeira

Well, you would still own the home charger at the end of the lease, so it would be free for the next car, at least.

14 hours may be OK for some folks - if you work 8 hours a day, add an hour for commuting round trip, that means you're only using the car 9 hours per day. The other 15 hours it could be charging.

Again - this is assuming you have a 2nd car that runs on something else.