I guess you could just go to the new car section here on edmunds and build each, but I think you'll be disappointed in the Fusion result. As someone else pointed out you might need the V-6 to get the AWD (although it's pretty common here in CO). I went by the Ford dealer because I was genuinely interested but the experience with the "typical" sales guy made me think I was back in the '70s or '80s.
They had one in the showroom that had what I wanted, AWD, leather etc, but IIRC it stickered for the better part of $30,000. My Legacy Limited stickered at about $28K once I added what I wanted and I paid $25K for it.
So far, one month and about 800 miles I'm very pleased. I've gotten 25/30+/24.6 on the three times I've topped up the tank. The second one was all highway, the other two were all town and I just wanted to see what it was averaging.
When my roll up garage door is open it's 7' 4" above the garage floor. Will the open and fully extended rear hatch of a 2010 Outback clear that height? It sure would make retrieving groceries out of the cargo bed difficult if I'm constantly whacking my open garage door with the Outback's hatch door.
I don't have the answer - someone will have to measure their open 2010 outback hatch. My wife's 07 Forester comes about 1/2" from hitting the backside of the open garage door. Her previous vehicle would hit it - so I attached foam pipe insulation to the garage door ribs between the panels - that way, when it hit, there would be no damage to the vehicle.
As far as the fusion goes, you do need the 6 to get the awd. OTOH, I drove my first Sub tonight...legacy 6 speed(no CVT's available and I was a little rusty with driving the stick...been 15 years at least. Im going with the wife tomm and see if we can take an outback with the cvt at least so we know how that feels. I think Im getting her to at least think about it....progress! I dont think she has ever owned a 'foreign' car.
Well..its on, again. My wife and I took an outback 2.5 premium with for a ride today, first experience with the cvt, pretty slick. Pretty much kicking tires and on the way home the wife said she would rather have the outback than legacy for cargo space. Cant argue there. Got home and she called her dad without my knowledge to ask his opinion. I came inside and she says...I think we need to look at something american made...and proceeds to tell me she called and sounds like he laid a guilt trip on her, by some roundabout way relating buying a gmc/chrysler/ford to the number of people leaving Michigan and therefore not as many kids to teach(quite a stretch if you ask me and she is a teacher obviously) And she says she feels a little guilty. I got a little po'd and laid into gm why people arent buying their cars. Can anybody find me a comparable vehicle that the big 3 make thats comparable in price/cargo space/fuel eff./ and ride quality to a outback? As stated earlier, we have an envoy so pretty much in the truck ride category right now. sorry for the long post...kind of irked me.
Wondering how much backseat space was gained in 2010 as far as leg room goes? Is it minimal, very obvious or somewhere in between. My wife wonders if we would be as happy with a slighly used one(08,09)
I went over to the local Subaru dealership today and measured the rear hatch of a 2010 Outback. Looks like there is a good 5" gap between the top of the open hatch and my 7' 4" open garage door. That's a good thing. Now if I can just figure out a way to speed up the clock while I wait for the 3.6 Limited that I ordered last week.
Our last 2 GMs were a Buick Rendezvous - made in Mexico and a Chevy Silverado - made in Canada. Since then, we've bought subarus made in Indiana & the retired GM father-in-law says its none of his business what we buy and he doesn't blame us one bit.
nope, hes just old school and pretty much jokes how everthing is made in china now. I have never got into it with him, but my opinion of gm and the uaw is pretty low. My wife thinks he would be pretty disappointed if we didnt buy gm, but I told her that we have 2 gm vehicles in the garage and neither has a working fuel gauge(99,05) and would like something that gets good mileage without sacrificing space. As you stated...its really none of his business anymore and its pretty petty to hold that against us(me, as its my idea)
I don't want to sound harsh, but what you're describing borders on a "cutting the apron strings" problem on the part of your wife or a "sticking his nose where it doesn't belong" problem on the part of your FIL.
I think the quickest way to cut him off is to ask him what % of the new car's price, and ongoing maintenance costs he's chipping in with.
If I had done to my wife, what your wife did to you; discuss a big ticket purchase outside of the two of us, it would be reeeeaaaaal quiet around my house for a couple of weeks until she got over it.
You two need to get what YOU want, not what someone who isn't paying wants.
He sounds a bit like my late father-in-law, a WWII vet, who disliked imports in general & Japanese cars in particular. He'd grumble softly when my wife & I bought a German car & loudly when we'd buy a Japanese brand, because anything Japanese was associated in his mind with the Pearl Harbor attack. (He was a Navy vet.)
I'd jokingly offer to sell the car & buy an American nameplate if he'd write the check. He'd laugh & that would be the end of it.
Not long after he died, my mother-in-law bought a Camry.
Great guy. I didn't always agree with him, but I miss him.
Easypar - Its not so much the cutting of the apron strings, its she feels a little guilty because GM was good to him, therefore letting him be good to the family. I on the other hand feel no loyalty to any automaker and want whats best for us. I didnt appreciate the phone call, but she did apologize later. I guess I can understand where hes coming from(needs his pension funded by my purchase) I did the gm discount thing when we got married - the envoy, I secretly looked at subies then too, but thought better of it.
He a nice guy, like jimbres says...just dont always agree with him.
As already stated, the Outback is made in Indiana.
Is your father in-law writing the check(s) for your next vehicle... he sounds like a complete and total control freak and perhaps Catholic? Unfortunately GM and Ford really don't make a vehicle that has the same market niche as the Outback. Chrysler is simply out of the question - why buy junk.
The proof is in the pudding. Go look at used Outbacks... notice how well they've stood up over the years - then go look at some GM products and I think it should be very obvious and apparent that the Outback outshines them.
I can't believe a married man and woman have to bow to her father in-law.
Here's what I think although unsolicited opinion not asked for. Your FIL may have valid points from his viewpoint as GM retiree but is sticking his nose a little too far where it isn't needed.
There is no one who will go out of their way to buy American more than I on anything that I can still find that is still Made in USA. There has been no one who is more GM oriented than I. I went to the GM Institute co-op engineering school many years ago but never worked for GM. Have always bought GM cars except for Subarus for the wife. I almost bought a new GMC pickup this summer to replace my 2000 until I saw that GM management (03 VIN) now has them made in Mexico. Why would I support Mexico?
My 2003 Cad DTS with few miles had a sticker of over 60K and today is worth only a little more than the 2002 Subaru OB that I recently traded in on a 2010. I blame GMs problems on selfish stupid management that wanted huge compensation and private jets but had no concept of making quality reliable cars. The unions weren't the problem, it was politicians and management that could not come up with the same priorities as Americans. Then we had those Presidents and Congress that were in the bag to lobbyists and Wall St who refused to demand fair trade and equal entry into foreign markets. IMO they sold out the USA.
It is a changing of the guard. There was a time when "Made in Japan" merely meant cheap. There was a time when Japanese cars were made in Japan and American cars were made in the United States. Old beliefs and attitudes tend to die with the people who held them. My dad bought a little Dodge pickup in the1980s (I believe it was a Mitsubishi product), because he wanted to buy American.
Unlike some of us, most people know almost nothing about where a vehicle is designed and built, but they think they know that Ford, GM and Chrysler are American. When Subarus are built in Indiana and many products of the Now Much Smaller Three are built in Mexico and Canada, it begs the question how are we really to know how beneficial our vehicle purchase might be to our neighbor? Buy what you like. It encourages car companies to make what you like.
If he is really that into it, go test drive a Ford Edge and then you can say you did your due diligence if he gets into you about it.
Our '05 Legacy wagon has been great, but that model is no longer made. If you are into the glorified psuedo-SUV wagon thing, might as well drive a few of them. The Hyundai Santa Fe and Tuscon are also worth a look.
When I am inclined to drop 25-30k on a car (both the Legacy and the Accord were just shy of 20k) I would probably want to look around a bit. Heck, check out the Equinox just to say you did.
I had a similar situation with my father-in-law. He was Jewish, and would never EVER buy something German because of what happened in WWII. ...Although, he did buy an Opel GT once. I wonder if he knew it was German? Maybe he forgave that aspect, as it was GM-owned, and was sold via Buick dealers?
We bought our first Honda Accord in 1976, and had a number of other Hondas since then. He (my father-in-law) liked the Hondas, but really would rather have had us buy American vehicles. He could never understand how Honda could make such a great vehicle, yet the Americans couldn't. Every car he bought, since I knew him, was American (except the Opel)—and he had problems with every single one of them.
As for you FIL - IMHO, since it's not his money, it's not his business. But sometimes keeping peace in the family is more important than anything else.
Since he won't shut up about it, perhaps you should.
He really doesnt know much about 'foreign' cars as he has never even looked at them. He goes to the local gm dealer every couple of years and get something different...he's currently driving the buick enclave. Look...dont get the idea that we have to pass inspection as to what we buy. This will be the 2nd vehicle that we have purchased since we have been married(5+ years) and her family has never gone anything but gm(due to the discount and whatnot) Having an opinion is one thing, but I told her it better not go any further than that. I'll be the good son in law and browse the gm product line, but really have no desire to purchase one. I just posted this to see if anybody else has had to deal with this. My wife is seeing some friends today and they have an older outback. I told her to check it out and see what the interior differences were like, esp backseat room.
It would be one thing if he still worked there, but he retired at least 8 or 9 years ago. Id be extremely disappointed in him if he couldnt look past what kind of vehicle we drive. We shall see as we haven't made any decisions yet but its our decision and his opinion wont carry weight in what we choose.
My FIL, the one GM retiree who openly volunteers that its none of his business what any of his kids buy (when we drive there with a new Subaru), also drives an Enclave. Funny thing with labels. I bet he'd accept a Vibe which is 100% Toyota under the skin (can use GM discount too). If the $7K discounts announced yesterday are for real, an AWD Vibe might be worth looking at - if you could find one.
My own father hated foreign cars and never bought one. I tortured him by test driving all sorts of weird stuff and parking them in the driveway for his opinion (which I already knew in advance...) - from the first Civics in 72-73(?), to every Fiat, the last Triumphs and MGs, even a Simca, sold by Chrysler dealers brand new for like $1595. But when I needed a college car, I brought him along for the first one I negotiated on my own - a slightly used 69 VW. He was negative until he drove it fairly quietly. After his drive, he turned to me and said "If you don't buy this car, I will". I traded in a 67 Mustang GT + $700 for that VW. I still have a soft spot for old VWs.
* tell him you test drove a Fusion, but found out it was made in Mexico * then you drove a leftover Equinox with the 3500 engine made in China * then you drove a Subaru built in Indiana
Save the Monroney sticker with the percentage of US content.
You felt very STRONGLY that your fellow Americans in Indiana built the best car of the three, and felt no need to buy an import.
Add the fact that you think labeling these imports as "American" is sneaky and it offends your sensibilities.
The sold order request target delivery section says "Fill before 01/31/2010" Dealership says to expect two months +. I ordered a Limited standard model (no moon roof or navagation) with only two options (protection package 1A and trailer hitch). You never know, maybe a relatively spartan 3.6R will just breeze through the process. I've read on other blogs that it takes two months for the 6 cylinder engine and transmission to get shipped to Indiana from Japan. It's worth the wait to me so I can get the car configured just the way I want.
When I hear stories like this I chuckle at how the "lines" have gotten so fuzzy. I always bought American and I still always try for all products as long as the value I get for my dollar is considered.
I used to have a Dodge truck and then bought a Toyota Tundra because of the reliability and the deal. My friends at work who had Dodge, Chevy and Ford trucks gave me some crap. I pointed out that since I had the only truck that was made in this country I was the only one who helped feed the families of those in the industry. As they sat around and compared war stories about things that went wrong with their trucks they kept looking to me to join in. I kept saying sorry, no problems, no dealer visits. After several months of this 2 of the guys relented and said they were going to unload their troublesome trucks and go Toyota.
When I bought my first Forester my Dad was still alive, and he was also of the "buy American" mindset. He did have an open mind though and as I showed him the quality and technology he ended up thinking I made a smart purchase. He enjoyed riding in it as I took him on errands and doctor visits, especially in bad weather.
I suggest that you gather the frequency of repair data from Consumer Reports and show it to your FIL, then explain that since you have family concerns you need to be really smart about how you spend your money so as to not detract from the quality of life you want to provide for his daughter. I bet he loves his daughter more than he loves GM. Family peace is important but so is reason. Blind loyalty can cost money.
My friends at work who had Dodge, Chevy and Ford trucks gave me some crap. I pointed out that since I had the only truck that was made in this country I was the only one who helped feed the families of those in the industry.
While I understand the sentiment, I gotta call BS.
The F150 is manufactured at Dearborn Truck in Dearborn, MI, Wayne Assembly is switching from Truck/SUV to cars. Explorer, Mountaineer and SportTrac are made in KY, and the Ranger in Kansas City, along with F150 and Escape. There have also been enough issues with Toyota truck frames, transmissions, and brakes as of late that I am thinking your experience is from the early 80s.
The idea is to buy a vehicle that meets your wants and needs. Everyone has different criteria for that. When we got our Legacy wagon in '05, we wanted a fun to drive, relatively efficient manual transmission AWD wagon. We chose between the Legacy and the VW Passat 4motion. Ford, GM, and Chrysler don't support that segment (of course at this point, neither does Subaru ).
I guess my point is to define your own vehicle purchase criteria. Then find something that meets that criteria. If part of that criteria is you want to support R&D in the US, or manufacturing, or whatever, that is fine, but I don't know about excluding vehicles based on where and who manufactures them.
Well, your BS meter needs new batteries, as the "facts" you attribute to my example are not correct. My friend's 2002 F-150 2WD was built in Mexico, and his 5.4 V8 came from Canada. Besides getting only single digit gas mileage no matter how he drove it he was always at the dealer with problems from all parts of the truck, including engine and trans.
The Tundra wasn't around in the 80's, came out as a 2000 model mid 1999. Mine is a 2003 and has been flawless except for a TSB on a fuel filer neck seam weld. Yes Toyota has had it's share of problems with frames, mostly in the T100 days, and other things you mention, plus the 5.7 l V8 problems when they first came out in 2007. And lets not forget the floor mat issues of the newer ones. My truck is in the years of the potential rusty cross-member that holds the spare tire in place, but mine is pristine even though I drive in New England winters and salt. I was only comparing MY specific truck to other specific trucks of similar years and how their owners felt about how little value they got for their money.
My point was not that Toyota is automatically better just that I broke out of my traditional mold and looked around when I wanted to purchase. My Tundra and all my Subarus have been the best vehicles I have ever owned, and I have owned about 60. In fact, as much as I like my truck I would not buy another Toyota unless they learn something about customer relations from their dealings with Subaru.
By me opening my horizons I ended up very pleased, and I am not sure that is much different than your final point. My friends were the ones with the blind brand loyalty and they felt they paid dearly for that.
Besides getting only single digit gas mileage no matter how he drove it
Less than shocking since its rated at 11 mpg.
My point was not that Toyota is automatically better just that I broke out of my traditional mold and looked around when I wanted to purchase.
So you established your own criteria, found something that met the criteria, and purchased it? That is an excellent point and might have gotten slightly lost in the original message.
By me opening my horizons I ended up very pleased, and I am not sure that is much different than your final point. My friends were the ones with the blind brand loyalty and they felt they paid dearly for that.
Yup, always better to buy something that meets your needs/wants criteria...better for you, better for the brand you bought, and better for the brands you didn't buy.
ICBM - I feel for you! The thing is, it sounds like you (and your wife) know a lot more about what you want (and don't want) in a car than any one else in your family. My grandfather is much the same way as the FIL's mentioned by others. He has strong biases and tends to buy Ford (which does make some good cars). He really does not like my Subaru(s) and sometimes quips about "that thin [non-permissible content removed] steel" or "has your [non-permissible content removed] car broke down yet?," but he knows that I know so much more about cars than him that he would probably put his foot in his mouth if he actually tried to engage a debate about why to purchase one brand over another. He respects that I have my own preferences and priorities and I respect that he will always have his biases.
I think your role is to be sensitive to your wife's predicament and not let the situation, regardless of your purchase decision, cause conflict in your relationship.
You and your wife will be amazed at the interior differences between the '09 (& older) and '10 Outbacks. The older model was more pleasing to the eye from the outside, but far less functional/spacious on the inside.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
There are a lot of us who think the 2010 model looks better on the outside too...at least it is a conventional looking car now; whether that is a good thing or not is debatable. But the quirky Subaru personal is gone.
It is still a raised wagon. Unlike other "crossovers," which all have a dedicated body, the Outback still is a Legacy wagon, but (as before) raised a few inches and sporting some unique trim here and there. The 2010 Legacy is a taller and wider sedan than the previous one (though an inch shorter), so the Outback comes out taller than the previous Outback as well. Both are more conventional-looking cars now, and that may have contributed to greater sales (as well as the obvious value, features, and the remarkable mpg with AWD).
Yep the new design pulled us in. We had decided not to bother based on seeing it in the showroom but salesman insisted we drive it .. turning point.
Wouldn't say its a real crossover, to us its still the ugly duckling compared to others we looked, but the inside looks good and it drove real well and certainly better than the others. Reminded us of my ex BMW 330Xi, without the sticker shock.
I can't find a 3.6 anywhere within 100 miles of where I live, and that includes 2 large metropolitan areas. It's ridiculous. I'm not going to consider a vehicle if I have to drive 2 hours to even test drive it.
That seems to be the case in most places. To me, it seems practical for dealerships to keep one of these cars (a demo, perhaps) on hand at all times for test driving, etc. If a customer wants to buy one, they can always order it, but not being able to even try one out makes it real hard to sell the vehicle. :sick:
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I don't want to speak for Subaru but I never had the impression that the 6 cylinder was ever that popular. I live in the front range of Colorado so I spend a fair amount of time behind Subies in traffic or at lights. The number of H6s that I ever see, meaning older models is miniscule.
I mean the boxer engine was never known for its great gas mileage, and most people buying Subes seem to be at least somewhat interested in mileage.
Or it could be a conspiracy on Subaru's part to keep their CAFE numbers high. IIRC the 3.6 is rated at about 20 average, while the 2.5 is about 25. Although the tiny numbers of Tribecas that they sell is keeping the average up by itself.
I don't want to speak for Subaru but I never had the impression that the 6 cylinder was ever that popular
But it may attract an entirely different demographic that is unlikely to buy the four cylinder. The six does not have the annoying rapping exhaust noise of the four which my earlier Legacy had as did a new Forester I test drove. There is not just a performance difference! My 3.0R replaced a VW eight cylinder (W8). The 3.6R six competes in a much higher price class.
Now if they would just put on folding mirrors again I probably would buy a new 3.6R.
And, to split hairs, the Accord Crosstour and Toyota Venza actually have different bodies from their sedan counterparts. Outback does not. It is a Legacy wagon with some trim variation jacked up a couple inches.
Notice I said ordered, Subaru NE (SNE is for some reason different from SOB) has a HORRIBLE ordering and information system. Beginning to wish I hadn't saved some money and ordered through them.
Dealer says its normal - so much for 6-8 weeks :P
My order was placed in the system Mid November and I STILL have no confirmation from the factory of a delivery date.
Supposedly I should hear in 7-10 days - just the anticipated date availability not the actual car :mad:
I wanted to test drive the 3.6 as well, but sales guy told me the 2.5 engine represents 95% of their sales. Needless to say they did not have a 3.6 on their lot to test drive and neither did the others nearby.
Now if they would just put on folding mirrors again I probably would buy a new 3.6R.
My hunch is that Subaru is saving this feature for the mid-cycle refresh, which will probably happen in 2012 or 2013. Can you wait for a couple of years?
I am here in MA so also deal with SNE. I have been trying to get a 3.6R Premium for about as long as you have. 2 dealers told be that it could be as long as 3 months. As I understand the system we don't really "order" one directly, we just get allocated one from what they already have scheduled. They don't do anything differently when you or I say we want one, except put our name next to one we want when it gets its VIN. They told me to expect mid Feb. My "request from allocation" was done on 12/1.
When I asked about the Tribeca they told me the 3.6R would be here first.
Well I emailed SOB direct this morning and quickly got 2 pleasant replies from a lady at Customer / Dealer Service (CustDlrServices@subaru.com) it seems that 10-15 weeks is the current cycle.
Further and I quote "A factor that may have further complicated the availability of delivery information for you since you ordered the vehicle is that Subaru of New England is an independent distributor and their order process and receiving information is internally controlled by that region.
They do not have access to our pipeline and we do not have access to theirs.
Liaisons conduct the flow of distribution information. Also important to note is that Subaru of New England places allocation orders according to what they see as popular sellers with certain options, so if you may have ordered a unique option/color combination outside of what is on their usual allocation, we may not be as easily able to fill the order in a specified amount of time. "
A 2nd email told me that end of February delivery should be considered a worst case scenario for my vehicle.
Seems it pays to approach SOB direct, if stuck in SNE no information limbo land.
Comments
They had one in the showroom that had what I wanted, AWD, leather etc, but IIRC it stickered for the better part of $30,000. My Legacy Limited stickered at about $28K once I added what I wanted and I paid $25K for it.
So far, one month and about 800 miles I'm very pleased. I've gotten 25/30+/24.6 on the three times I've topped up the tank. The second one was all highway, the other two were all town and I just wanted to see what it was averaging.
easypar
When my roll up garage door is open it's 7' 4" above the garage floor.
Will the open and fully extended rear hatch of a 2010 Outback clear that height? It sure would make retrieving groceries out of the cargo bed difficult if I'm constantly whacking my open garage door with the Outback's hatch door.
Thanks for any insight you may have.
Bob
Got home and she called her dad without my knowledge to ask his opinion. I came inside and she says...I think we need to look at something american made...and proceeds to tell me she called and sounds like he laid a guilt trip on her, by some roundabout way relating buying a gmc/chrysler/ford to the number of people leaving Michigan and therefore not as many kids to teach(quite a stretch if you ask me and she is a teacher obviously) And she says she feels a little guilty. I got a little po'd and laid into gm why people arent buying their cars. Can anybody find me a comparable vehicle that the big 3 make thats comparable in price/cargo space/fuel eff./ and ride quality to a outback? As stated earlier, we have an envoy so pretty much in the truck ride category right now. sorry for the long post...kind of irked me.
Not likely. ...And if even you do find something, who's to say it's made in Michigan?
Heck, the Legacy and Outback are made in Indiana. Hard to find something more American than that!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_of_Indiana_Automotive,_Inc.
Bob
Now if I can just figure out a way to speed up the clock while I wait for the 3.6 Limited that I ordered last week.
Is her dad helping to pay for the new ride?
I think the quickest way to cut him off is to ask him what % of the new car's price, and ongoing maintenance costs he's chipping in with.
If I had done to my wife, what your wife did to you; discuss a big ticket purchase outside of the two of us, it would be reeeeaaaaal quiet around my house for a couple of weeks until she got over it.
You two need to get what YOU want, not what someone who isn't paying wants.
Sorry, but it had to be said.
easypar
I'd jokingly offer to sell the car & buy an American nameplate if he'd write the check. He'd laugh & that would be the end of it.
Not long after he died, my mother-in-law bought a Camry.
Great guy. I didn't always agree with him, but I miss him.
He a nice guy, like jimbres says...just dont always agree with him.
Is your father in-law writing the check(s) for your next vehicle... he sounds like a complete and total control freak and perhaps Catholic? Unfortunately GM and Ford really don't make a vehicle that has the same market niche as the Outback. Chrysler is simply out of the question - why buy junk.
The proof is in the pudding. Go look at used Outbacks... notice how well they've stood up over the years - then go look at some GM products and I think it should be very obvious and apparent that the Outback outshines them.
I can't believe a married man and woman have to bow to her father in-law.
Can you spell dysfunction? :confuse:
There is no one who will go out of their way to buy American more than I on anything that I can still find that is still Made in USA. There has been no one who is more GM oriented than I. I went to the GM Institute co-op engineering school many years ago but never worked for GM. Have always bought GM cars except for Subarus for the wife. I almost bought a new GMC pickup this summer to replace my 2000 until I saw that GM management (03 VIN) now has them made in Mexico. Why would I support Mexico?
My 2003 Cad DTS with few miles had a sticker of over 60K and today is worth only a little more than the 2002 Subaru OB that I recently traded in on a 2010. I blame GMs problems on selfish stupid management that wanted huge compensation and private jets but had no concept of making quality reliable cars. The unions weren't the problem, it was politicians and management that could not come up with the same priorities as Americans. Then we had those Presidents and Congress that were in the bag to lobbyists and Wall St who refused to demand fair trade and equal entry into foreign markets. IMO they sold out the USA.
Sorry now off my rant.
Unlike some of us, most people know almost nothing about where a vehicle is designed and built, but they think they know that Ford, GM and Chrysler are American. When Subarus are built in Indiana and many products of the Now Much Smaller Three are built in Mexico and Canada, it begs the question how are we really to know how beneficial our vehicle purchase might be to our neighbor? Buy what you like. It encourages car companies to make what you like.
Our '05 Legacy wagon has been great, but that model is no longer made. If you are into the glorified psuedo-SUV wagon thing, might as well drive a few of them. The Hyundai Santa Fe and Tuscon are also worth a look.
When I am inclined to drop 25-30k on a car (both the Legacy and the Accord were just shy of 20k) I would probably want to look around a bit. Heck, check out the Equinox just to say you did.
We bought our first Honda Accord in 1976, and had a number of other Hondas since then. He (my father-in-law) liked the Hondas, but really would rather have had us buy American vehicles. He could never understand how Honda could make such a great vehicle, yet the Americans couldn't. Every car he bought, since I knew him, was American (except the Opel)—and he had problems with every single one of them.
Bob
As for you FIL - IMHO, since it's not his money, it's not his business. But sometimes keeping peace in the family is more important than anything else.
Since he won't shut up about it, perhaps you should.
My wife is seeing some friends today and they have an older outback. I told her to check it out and see what the interior differences were like, esp backseat room.
My own father hated foreign cars and never bought one. I tortured him by test driving all sorts of weird stuff and parking them in the driveway for his opinion (which I already knew in advance...) - from the first Civics in 72-73(?), to every Fiat, the last Triumphs and MGs, even a Simca, sold by Chrysler dealers brand new for like $1595. But when I needed a college car, I brought him along for the first one I negotiated on my own - a slightly used 69 VW. He was negative until he drove it fairly quietly. After his drive, he turned to me and said "If you don't buy this car, I will". I traded in a 67 Mustang GT + $700 for that VW. I still have a soft spot for old VWs.
* tell him you test drove a Fusion, but found out it was made in Mexico
* then you drove a leftover Equinox with the 3500 engine made in China
* then you drove a Subaru built in Indiana
Save the Monroney sticker with the percentage of US content.
You felt very STRONGLY that your fellow Americans in Indiana built the best car of the three, and felt no need to buy an import.
Add the fact that you think labeling these imports as "American" is sneaky and it offends your sensibilities.
On 2nd thought, skip the last part.
Limited standard model (no moon roof or navagation) with only two options (protection package 1A and trailer hitch). You never know, maybe a relatively spartan 3.6R will just breeze through the process. I've read on other blogs that it takes two months for the 6 cylinder engine and transmission to get shipped to Indiana from Japan. It's worth the wait to me so I can get the car configured just the way I want.
I used to have a Dodge truck and then bought a Toyota Tundra because of the reliability and the deal. My friends at work who had Dodge, Chevy and Ford trucks gave me some crap. I pointed out that since I had the only truck that was made in this country I was the only one who helped feed the families of those in the industry. As they sat around and compared war stories about things that went wrong with their trucks they kept looking to me to join in. I kept saying sorry, no problems, no dealer visits. After several months of this 2 of the guys relented and said they were going to unload their troublesome trucks and go Toyota.
When I bought my first Forester my Dad was still alive, and he was also of the "buy American" mindset. He did have an open mind though and as I showed him the quality and technology he ended up thinking I made a smart purchase. He enjoyed riding in it as I took him on errands and doctor visits, especially in bad weather.
I suggest that you gather the frequency of repair data from Consumer Reports and show it to your FIL, then explain that since you have family concerns you need to be really smart about how you spend your money so as to not detract from the quality of life you want to provide for his daughter. I bet he loves his daughter more than he loves GM. Family peace is important but so is reason. Blind loyalty can cost money.
While I understand the sentiment, I gotta call BS.
The F150 is manufactured at Dearborn Truck in Dearborn, MI, Wayne Assembly is switching from Truck/SUV to cars. Explorer, Mountaineer and SportTrac are made in KY, and the Ranger in Kansas City, along with F150 and Escape. There have also been enough issues with Toyota truck frames, transmissions, and brakes as of late that I am thinking your experience is from the early 80s.
The idea is to buy a vehicle that meets your wants and needs. Everyone has different criteria for that. When we got our Legacy wagon in '05, we wanted a fun to drive, relatively efficient manual transmission AWD wagon. We chose between the Legacy and the VW Passat 4motion. Ford, GM, and Chrysler don't support that segment (of course at this point, neither does Subaru
I guess my point is to define your own vehicle purchase criteria. Then find something that meets that criteria. If part of that criteria is you want to support R&D in the US, or manufacturing, or whatever, that is fine, but I don't know about excluding vehicles based on where and who manufactures them.
The Tundra wasn't around in the 80's, came out as a 2000 model mid 1999. Mine is a 2003 and has been flawless except for a TSB on a fuel filer neck seam weld. Yes Toyota has had it's share of problems with frames, mostly in the T100 days, and other things you mention, plus the 5.7 l V8 problems when they first came out in 2007. And lets not forget the floor mat issues of the newer ones. My truck is in the years of the potential rusty cross-member that holds the spare tire in place, but mine is pristine even though I drive in New England winters and salt. I was only comparing MY specific truck to other specific trucks of similar years and how their owners felt about how little value they got for their money.
My point was not that Toyota is automatically better just that I broke out of my traditional mold and looked around when I wanted to purchase. My Tundra and all my Subarus have been the best vehicles I have ever owned, and I have owned about 60. In fact, as much as I like my truck I would not buy another Toyota unless they learn something about customer relations from their dealings with Subaru.
By me opening my horizons I ended up very pleased, and I am not sure that is much different than your final point. My friends were the ones with the blind brand loyalty and they felt they paid dearly for that.
The Legacy, Outback, and Tribeca are made in Indiana.
The Forester and Impreza are made in Gunma, Japan.
Less than shocking since its rated at 11 mpg.
My point was not that Toyota is automatically better just that I broke out of my traditional mold and looked around when I wanted to purchase.
So you established your own criteria, found something that met the criteria, and purchased it? That is an excellent point and might have gotten slightly lost in the original message.
By me opening my horizons I ended up very pleased, and I am not sure that is much different than your final point. My friends were the ones with the blind brand loyalty and they felt they paid dearly for that.
Yup, always better to buy something that meets your needs/wants criteria...better for you, better for the brand you bought, and better for the brands you didn't buy.
I think your role is to be sensitive to your wife's predicament and not let the situation, regardless of your purchase decision, cause conflict in your relationship.
You and your wife will be amazed at the interior differences between the '09 (& older) and '10 Outbacks. The older model was more pleasing to the eye from the outside, but far less functional/spacious on the inside.
Wouldn't say its a real crossover, to us its still the ugly duckling compared to others we looked, but the inside looks good and it drove real well and certainly better than the others. Reminded us of my ex BMW 330Xi, without the sticker shock.
If only we could get delivery of our order.....
I mean the boxer engine was never known for its great gas mileage, and most people buying Subes seem to be at least somewhat interested in mileage.
Or it could be a conspiracy on Subaru's part to keep their CAFE numbers high. IIRC the 3.6 is rated at about 20 average, while the 2.5 is about 25. Although the tiny numbers of Tribecas that they sell is keeping the average up by itself.
Just a couple of thoughts.
easypar
But it may attract an entirely different demographic that is unlikely to buy the four cylinder. The six does not have the annoying rapping exhaust noise of the four which my earlier Legacy had as did a new Forester I test drove. There is not just a performance difference! My 3.0R replaced a VW eight cylinder (W8). The 3.6R six competes in a much higher price class.
Now if they would just put on folding mirrors again I probably would buy a new
The only difference may be that Subaru actually sells a Legacy wagon in other markets.
Notice I said ordered, Subaru NE (SNE is for some reason different from SOB) has a HORRIBLE ordering and information system. Beginning to wish I hadn't saved some money and ordered through them.
Dealer says its normal - so much for 6-8 weeks :P
My order was placed in the system Mid November and I STILL have no confirmation from the factory of a delivery date.
Supposedly I should hear in 7-10 days - just the anticipated date availability not the actual car :mad:
My hunch is that Subaru is saving this feature for the mid-cycle refresh, which will probably happen in 2012 or 2013. Can you wait for a couple of years?
When I asked about the Tribeca they told me the 3.6R would be here first.
In fact I wonder why they made them so different.
I think the Legacy wagon was compromised to make the Outback the way SoA wanted it, not the other way around. Look how big/tall it is.
Further and I quote "A factor that may have further complicated the availability of delivery information for you since you ordered the vehicle is that Subaru of New England is an independent distributor and their order process and receiving information is internally controlled by that region.
They do not have access to our pipeline and we do not have access to theirs.
Liaisons conduct the flow of distribution information. Also important to note is that Subaru of New England places allocation orders according to what they see as popular sellers with certain options, so if you may have ordered a unique option/color combination outside of what is on their usual allocation, we may not be as easily able to fill the order in a specified amount of time. "
A 2nd email told me that end of February delivery should be considered a worst case scenario for my vehicle.
Seems it pays to approach SOB direct, if stuck in SNE no information limbo land.
Good luck!