that's one of the things we 've been trying to convey to our Ford Focus counterparts. TECHNOLOGY! I posted it before and I 'll post it again. The Honda Insight, the Accord and S2000 won international awards in '00 for the best engines in the world. Inside got first place and other other 2 came in 3d place. 2nd I think was the Ferrari Montabello or Modena.
But some credit should be given where it's due. The Focus has managed to pull some decent sales #s and that is a big achievement for a Ford product. With the new Civic only time will tell. The new design is kind of questionable but again, that's up to individual tastes. The base model Civic is supposed to have 115hp (9hp more) and the higher end (EX?) 130+, both with increased low end torque and more standard features. Peak torque is supposed to be achieved in the 4,000's RPM range (not at 5-6K as before) and most of it will be maintained accross the whole RPM band up to redline! Anyway, we 'll know in a month or so.
'99 Integra GSR '06 Civic LX coupe '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
i agree,the zetec is a noisy engine,however not to the point of being annoying,at least to my ears. quite frankly,ive found the zetec to be more re- sponsive in the zx2 than the zx3.the smaller 4 in the sedan is rather abysmal.if the ford svt boys tweak a new engine,lets say 170hp,then you will have a nice little stock package.zetec is a nice compromise with a little lively performace and decent fuel economy.nothing spectacular on either end.now the real star is the steering + road feel with a fine-tuned suspension.
my girlfrined insisted on buying an american car for herself. i have to admit, i chose the zx2, as the next one after the civic. zx2 is even noisier than the zx3. have you tried driving zx2 or zx3 for that matter for 400 or more miles straight. after an hour of 75 mph, the noise in unbearable, even the powerfull radio that ford has can't cover it. i think this is why ford has such a powerfull radio.. to cover up the engine as well as road noise. as harry said before, ford finally came up with a car that is comparable to imports in the small car sector.
the new civic does look like a ford focus (front) and pt cruiser (rear in hatch) what i don't understand is why honda is pulling the hatch off the US market. the new hatch would be a perfect pt cruiser fighter, which has the market to itself now. and with chrysler's dependability, no matter how good looking the car is, people who wanted to buy a big (minivan like), and cheap hatch will flock to honda. anybody from honda listening??????? i call it bad marketing???? go back to school!!!!! lol
No the Civic Hatchback is supposed to come back to the US as a '02 model and may come out as early as late spring/early summer of '01. The reason for this is that Honda has always been careful to provide excellent reliability with their cars in the US. Many Honda cars or engines debut in Japan first and about 1 year before they do in the US. This is so they can identify defects, if any, and correct them in time before they export them to the US and Canada. They have a huge reputation to protect in North America which is their most successful market (and largest one of 300M people and with the largest avg. income per capita) and they don't want to do anything to comprimise that. This is also the reason that new year models and new gen. Hondas don't come out till October in the US, where all the other manufacturers release their new models in August and some in July (I bought a '95 Galant on July 15th of '94..) The Civic SI (and its motor) have been out since '94 in various Civic models around the world. Also the Accord in Europe and Japan has optional motors with 207 and 215hp (4cyl DOHC) found in the Accord Type-R and Euro-R. These may be brought to the US as well in '02. That's fine by me. Let them iron out the bugs first and then bring them here. The Integra Type-R had come out in Sept. '96 in Japan. They didn't bring it to the US till May of '97 though. I think that 's a very good strategy. This is part of the reason Honda is so successful in North America.
'99 Integra GSR '06 Civic LX coupe '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I agree that the US market is still the most important one for manufacturers, but I find it odd that the choice of cars in the US is somewhat more boring than back in Europe.
Like only1harry points out, it may be that 'they' want to iron out the bugs in Europe or elsewhere first, but let's face it, too many exotic cars (large or small) never make it over here. At the end of the day, I believe that it has something to do with a couple of things:
1/ US buyers are - on the average - not nearly as much car enthusiasts as their European friends overseas. (I'm not talking about the afficionados in these columns, but about the MAINSTREAM us buyer) 2/ a 'sue'em!' mentality which prevails in the US like nowhere else. A perfect example is the fact that stickshifts are equipped with a start-block feature in the US - why? easy to figure out!
The problem with the 'let's try it out elsewhere first' mentality is that it kills diversity, and at the end of the day, a 'NEW' model is really... a few years old.
Back in Europe, buyers are on average more keen to get the 'latest thing out there', even if that means that you get a few bugs with the cars. They are somewhat more apologetic of infant diseases.
At the end of the day, the people roaming these particular columns are attracted to smaller, stylish sporty cars with peppy engines and ...a stick shift. So am I. But take a drive down one of 'em dealer strips nowadays and don't tell me that you get all hot and excited from what you see... I know I don't.
Only1harry, I don't think you work for Honda, do you. :-) So your theory is just as valid as mine. I think Honda is dropping off the hatchback in order to streamline their product line and get rid of "unpopular slow selling" models. According to the photos Honda made a good effort of trying to differentiate the hatchback from the more conservative sedan. Assembling both models on the same assembly line brings additional tooling=costs. Also you are saying that Honda want to eliminate the bugs before bringing the product to the U.S. I believe that the 01'Civic is gonna be the first worldwide model launch for Honda, even if it comes to the japanese market a couple of months earlier than the american one. Regarding the bugs. The Focus is on sale in Europe for almost 2 years. Still the U.S. Focus is not bug free at all. Why? Suppliers. It takes time for them to eliminate possible bugs too. Honda's US Civic is not gonna have a lot of imported parts. And I doubt that Honda will start import the European performance versions. Cost of certification and transportation plus currency fluctuations makes it too costly.
A friend and I compared her brand new civic hatchback to my ZX3 this weekend. Her old (OLD!) accord hatchback served her very well so she didn't even look beyond Honda when she needed a new car. Our cars were comparable. We both have ac as one of the only "major" options, and I have ABS.
We found that the Focus had more room inside, better (fresher anyway)styling, bigger wheels, a couple of neat standard options and an (arguably) better engine in the 16 valve DOHC zetec.
On the other hand, the Civic has that good Honda history behind it, the seats fold flatter without taking up the rear cushion, and I felt that a few places showed higher quality materials (the back hatchspace cover, specifically, I thought was better)
All in all though, I was very happy with my ZX3 choice, and she was a bit envious of the looks of my car. If I'm still driving it in 13 years like she did her old car, I'll be suprised though.
Oh yeah, I paid 1,700$ less than she did, and I got more options.
We will test drive each other's cars soon and see what we think then.
If Honda wanted to, they'd have their 'hot' models over in the US in no time (the S2000 is a perfect example).
The problem is that Honda is more concerned with sustaining their position in the middle-of-the-range market (4-door Civics and Accords) where they are so strong. It's all a matter of strategy as to how you want to market your products.
I'm not saying they are doing anything wrong, quite to the contrary. They'd be stupid not to concentrate on where their high-volume sales are.
Personally though, I think car manufacturers benefit from offering leading-edge novelties every now and then, because the image appeal trickles down to the more 'boring' cars of the range.
Offering 'fast' Civics (like the Si) is a way of hooking young (male?) drivers to the brand. It's a way of getting new buyers and winning brand loyalty. Likewise, on the 'high' end, you will always find 'adult kids' (like myself) who are attracted to powerful sedans. BMW and Audi's success can only attest to that - but granted, that's a completely different segment of the market - no Honda league.
Some manufacturers are 'all over the place'. I mentionned Audi, but that brand is really VW. And Volkswagen offers everthing from inexpensive hatches to extreme luxury cars (the A8, Rolls, or even the Countach). They will introduce an 8-cylinder engine on the passat this year.
So there is no 'technical' reason why Honda can't do the same. Sure, it may be that certification costs are high in the US for certain cars (I don't see where currency fluctuations come into play - it all depends where the car is built, and the US dollar has never been as strong as it is now anyway).
Some will say that Honda is too small a manufacturer and that they are the best in their playing field. I will agree to some extent. But by being too conservative and too 'bearish' they might be losing out on something very crucial to the car market. PASSION.
The new Civic hatch design is really a logical evolution which started with the Renault Megane Scenic from a few years back. That car sold (and sells) very well in Europe (to the point where the chief designer of that car now works for one of the big US car manufacturers - Ford? GM? I can't remember).
ONE trend in smaller cars, and namely hatchbacks over the past few years has been to prioritize functionalism in the form of increased space. The Focus is also an example of this evolution. Higher, more roomy - nearly van-like or SUV-like, like some have pointed out.
Clearly, the latest Honda hatch follows this trend.
The Megane Scenic is no beauty, but for it size, it provided dramatically improved space over traditional designs:
Renault has had an unsteady road to success over the last decades, with varying degrees of success. But they have always been on the forefront of trying out new designs. I found this site relating to the new Renault 'Avantime' ('avant' means before in French - thus, 'before its time'):
Yes, Honda CAN build some exceptional machienery. S2000 is as much an image builder as the Prowler or the Viper. And this is what it is all about. These cars can bring public to the showroom and create traffic at the autoshows. This is their primary purpose. In order to make money Honda better to shake off its conservatism and start make fast and wise desicions. Finally they are waking up to the truck-SUV craze. Their new plant in Alabama is totally dedicated to trucks. Can't say the same about their traditional lines. The current Civic is still selling way too well for 5 year old design. This is what makes Honda so hesitant to change their design direction. The 01 looks so safe and boring. Yes it will sell well too, but will it attract the younger population as much as the 92-95 models did? Too many of the real cool alternatives are coming to the market in every car, truck and everything inbetween segments during the next couple of years. And the aftermarket support will follow.
It is a practical AND good looking car. And this is 100% unmistakengly european, designed for the european tastes vehicle. Do americans have a different taste? I would say that there are plenty of people of every age in America who hate traditional trucks. And the Focus proves the point.
I love traditional trucks AND I love my focus. In fact I went from a small truck to the focus, one reason that I like the higher seating position. I didn't have to get used to the low-slung feeling of a civic or many other cars.
the reason americans are not offered more of their euro counterparts is because the u.s. mfg. can churn out their junk and still sell it. it wasnt till the japanese,such as honda started to build quality vehicles at reasonable prices to wake-up the u.s. automakers.in my opinion, chrysler + g.m. build less reliable vehicles than the competition. you can make that argument when it comes to electronic products as well.vcr's and cellular phones come to mind. i can go into detail but its off topic. computer os is another.
We own a 98 civic lx and a 94 mercury tracer(ford escort). You cant really compare the two cars. Civic wins in every aspect. The new focus is pretty good looking . Its a little more futureistic looking than the civic , but not totally. The reason the focus is cheaper than the civic is because its new to the market and ford needs to drop the prices so they can sell well. But once the focus reaches the expected sales rate it might go up in price. The new Sentra and Carolla went down in price maybe because of lower sales than the civic(dont know the sales for the carolla and the sentra). So ford is trying to get their focus to sell , and if it sells really wel it might go up in price. Yes the Focus sells well in europe but we are talking about the USA here. And trust me the CIVIC is rare in some countries in europe but the Civic has a very very good reputation in europe but also how many CIVIC factories do you have in EUROPE? Maybe 1. So many of the civics are more expensive because they have to be exported from Asia. So the Focus sells well in europe but is Civic would not have to be imported from ASIA I guess that the Civic would sell better than the Focus . For the American market if you feel like you cant compare a civic to a ZX3 focus dont forget about the Acura Integra which is a luxury version of the Civic. And any Integra will woop a focus any day. Now aftermartket support. How big is the aftermartket support for the focus? Not big . Try finding a Flowmaster , Greddy , Bora for a Focus . Its possible but not easy(Special Order) for the civic next day delivery. Even places like JEGS dont offer much for a Focus most of it is offered for the Civic , Camaro , Mustang... But may be if the Focus turns out well maybe the aftermarket suppory will be larger. But wasnt the Escort supposed to be a really good cheap car(according to ford) and where is the aftermarket for it. I have a Escort and its great but it could be way better quality. And the civic is great Inside and Outside. Oh and here in ohio driving down the highway you see accord civic accord civic, and then if you get lucky you might see a focus. So that may be why the dealers are having major discounts(like at local walmart) for their Focuses. Wait untill the stronger, roomier, better civic comes in 2001.
Just a few thoughts re: comparison of Honda DX Hatchback with Focus ZX3. First, although Honda does have a history of reliability, reliability cannot be guaranteed as all makers produce lemons in their production lines. Second, Honda has a higher resale value but should considering that they cost more to purchase (with comparable equipment/trim level about $3000-$4000 more). Additionally, repair costs are higher for Honda when those repairs occur after the warranty expires. Gas mileage for the l27HP V-TEC Honda is about the same as the Ford l30HP (28-32) and is available only in the EX level Civic Notchback. Hatchback availability from Honda is 1-2 years from now whereas ZX3 is available now (if it is true that the DX Hatchback is not available as 2001 model). Honda dealers seem to have a "take it or leave it" attitude when it comes to "dealing" while Ford dealers tend to be more competitive. Both, however, continue to cheat customers when it comes to such devices as "documentation" fees, etc. Hondas sit lower, the Focus sits higher (which is important to me now that I've had a back surgery). It really does come down to deciding what you need/want at a price you can afford. Because I refuse to be "car poor", I'll go with the Focus being certain to change the oil at frequent intervals (this is the "life" of the engine) and try to get the 300,000 miles which an acquaintance of mine got on her Escort. But if money were no object, I'd go with the Honda because of its reputed reliability and afterall isn't the purpose of a car simply to go from Point A to Point B. I could care less about "flash" but I do care about practicality and getting to/from where I want to go.
I find it funny that you keep saying Honda has to catch up in the SUV market. Who has the best selling small SUV right now?
Hmmmmmmm....HONDA!
Who is playing catch up? Sure, Honda doesn't have the super nasty run over small cars take the extended family around the block with 10 gallons of gas SUV's that Ford does but, they are very well positioned with the CRV.
I don't think too many people would argue the Ztec a better engine than Honda's 4. That would be like comparing a toddler's first steps to an Olympic marathon runner.
Apart from the Integra, the Acura brand (like Lexus) really offers watered down and discounted alternatives to more glorious German cars.
Not only do some Lexus and Acuras look exactly the same, but much of their design is directly drawn from Mercedes a few years back. Hardly anything that could light my fire. (and it seems they are bound to continue down this road of duplication... did anyone say 'BMW killer'????)
I don't like throwing stones at Honda, but really, they should get their act together. They have the potential brains in that company to compete head-to-head with the most glorious manufacturers out there. Unfortunately, it seems that some geeky bean counters are deciding on the strategy to use.
Please don't take this the wrong way anyone. I think most things Japanese are watered down versions of other products. Utimately the products they are known most for are watered down basic but highly dependable. I can't see many area's where Japan has been on the cutting edge. Personally I don't have a problem with a company offering great quality German rip offs at good prices.
From what I remember from 1999 consumer satisfaction numbers. The Japanese do German better than Germany does German.
I don't think the 130hp Focus is too much cheaper. And why doesn't the Focus come as a coupe? They 're either sedans, hatchbacks or wagons.. A Focus ZTS sticker is $15,700 with no sunroof but ABS standard (only on that model). The ZTS (and all the Focuses) only have 4 speakers. EX has 6. EX coupe sticker is $15.9K and EX sedan is $16,700 I believe. Options again are pretty much the same if you subtract ABS, add sunroof, etc. There 's really not a big difference. The SE wagon is like $16K with only 107hp! You call that cheap? And it doesn't even come with tilt steering or power windows! My $12K DX HB came with tilt steering wheel. Add another $600 to the SE models and ZX3 for power windows and tilt steering.. And how come a sunroof is not even an option for the Focus?
'99 Integra GSR '06 Civic LX coupe '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Honda CRV is based on the Civic platform. I never consiedered it as a SUV in the NA way. And it's not a big money maker.(still being build in Japan with currently very unfavorable exc. rates) It was Honda's response to the Toyota's RAV. Designed for the Japanese market with grossly underpowered engine. Since the gas prices are becoming more and more prohibitive small unibody SUVs are becoming more and more popular in NA. At the same time new and vastly improved competitors are rolling out-2001 RAV and new to the market Escape/Tribute duo with the V6 option. Yes the CRV is a bestselling small SUV for now. But will it be able to keep it that way for long?
"Yes the CRV is a bestselling small SUV for now. But will it be able to keep it that way for long?"
Nah, Honda will just let it die. (Is that what you're thinking?)
I don't recall the exact dates they were introduced but, are you sure the CRV is Honda's answer to the RAV4 or is it Honda's answer to a niche they felt needed to be filled at the same time Toyota felt it needed to be filled. At any rate, they did a hell of a job answering/filling that segment of the market.
I'm interested in numbers that back up your statement about it the CRV not being a money maker.
Well, All I was saying was that ford's ztec is supposed to be a good engine, is modeled closer to (yes I know, not as good as) the Honda V-tech engine. THe Ztec is a good engine and standard in the ZX3, whereas the vtechs are not even available in the Honda Hatches. I'm sure the standard Honda 4 is very good, but the ztech is an upgrade from a normal 4 cylinder. I did say arguably!
I don't think that Honda is crazy enough to neglect such a promising niche which is rapidly becoming mainstream. Just it will not be as easy to maintain the bestselling status as it was before. The profit statistics? The automanufacturers in general don't like to make those numbers wildly available. Especially Honda. Just about everything at Honda is a closely guarded secret. And I'm not aware of any source (unless you are an insider) where you can obtain THAT kind of information. Therefore my statements in regards of the CRV profitability are based solely on common knowledge. If I'm missing something, please prove me wrong.
IMO it's only and upgrade if it offers you something more than the original. Slower 0-60 times, lower fuel economy, and as of yet undetermined reliability (to compare it to the Honda 4).
The vtech used to be offered in Honda's hatch, if it still was this thread would be useless, the Honda would win hands down. Unfortunately, Honda abandoned the Si hatch.
I can't prove you wrong. I was curious myself to see the numbers. How would you (unless as you said you are an insider) have ANY idea what their profit margin is?
If the base CR-V (according to Honda's web sight) has an M.S.R.P. of $19,500 + Tax & title, and it is built on a chassis they already make how are they not raking in the bucks? Do you think it costs them $7,000 more to make a BASE CR-V from my DX Hatch? I don't. I think they're probably doing pretty damn good.
I'm not sure about this but, does Honda have to send all of it's money back to Japan just because the vehicle was made in Japan? Can that money be funnelled to it's NA operations. If it doesn't have to be converted to Yen then the US dollar being strong has little to do with anything.
CRV is being build in Japan by very expensive workforce with more expensive parts. The japanese component market is way less competitive than the NA one(in regards of prices). So the vehicle in general will cost you more just because it was made in Japan. And yen is very strong nowdays, not US dollar.(in yen/dollar relation) Those japanese workers and component supplyers have to be paid every day. I don't see any way to keep US currency earned on the Japanese made product in the US unless you use it for the expansion purposes.
Civic hatch line in my opinion doesn't bring any money at all to Honda. I am sure(yea, still no numbers) it's actually losing money on each hatch it sells here. It is marketed as an entry model. It is configured that way. Isn't the reason Honda so light heartedly dropped it off even when the rest of the manuf. are fiercely battling each other with new low cost models (Focus/Echo). The Focus was designed to be profitable at prices it is currently selling for. Not the Honda hatch.(even if it's being build in the US by the nonunion workforce) So that $7K gap between CRV and Civic you are talking about is much smaller.
Please, please, please, tell me how the Focus was "designed" to be profitable at these prices. Something concrete. Real facts.
Personally, the reason I'd say they are suspending the hatch would have to do with (as talked about before) getting it right then bringing it here. I think the hatch hasn't done well here because DEALERS don't make enough off of each car and they don't care to carry or promote them.
Again, I would not compare Civic to Focus. Civic to Echo is a better match, and more competitive comparison. Lets quit this topic, it's a misfired missile.
What Chrysler dealers DO to promote the PT Cruiser? (aka looser)
And please explain why do you think Honda holds off the 01hatch to get it right while starting production of the sedans and coupes practically simultaneously around the world? I don't see anything special about the hatch in that respect. It is still the same 01 Civic with different sheet metal. Concrete facts? You will have to trust me until somebody can offer the REAL facts. I simply don't have time to dig now. If you will still interested I'll post the numbers as I come accros in the future. All I can say that with the advance of the CAD systems every new design is being optimized in every way to be cheaper to assemble (less parts=less time), to have cheaper components (supplyer bidding wars)and be cheaper to service. Placing the final assembly in Mexico also would help (the Focus hatch place of birth).
You are truely brilliant. We should quit this discussion and start one especially for you titled "Famous Ford Hatches PINTO, ESCORT, EXP, AND NOW THE 'NEW' FOCUS". Sure, you broke the mold but you put the same FORD jello in it. Yippie.
Oh here we go, what problems do you have with the PT Cruiser? I'd take one in a heart beat. Just waiting on the turbo GT Cruiser (runs 0-60 with a manual under 7). Gimme gimme gimme.
yea, this is my point. Some extraverts really hate when their neighbor's car attracts more of attention than their own.
I'm just saying that this car(or truck?) sells itself out basing on the looks alone.(My english really sucks). The dealer doesn't have to promote the truly outstanding product.
And how much will they want for the turbo Cruiser? MSRP x 2 ???
I think you're missing the part where Ford spent millions on the Focus' launch. They aired LIVE spots, that my friend doesn't happen often (and if they're spots were any indication they shouldn't try it again). It's not like Ford introduced this car and whoop without fanfare it slipped into an best seller list. Do you know how the Car of the Year award is awarded? Let me tell you it goes a little like this, car magazine asks advertisers "How much are you going to spend in our magazine?" whoever spends the most gets car of the year. Trust me, I work for the largest agency in America, I know. What was the Car of the Year? Hmmmm....
As a side note, notice how many times a certain magazines car of the year reflects the car of the year as choosen by readers. That should tell you something.
Drive by a Ford dealer (around here anyway) and you'll see 5-10 Focuses lined up (usually 1 or 2 ZX3's). Drive by a Honda dealers (around here), and there are no new Civic hatches, only used. Honda dealers are the ones who tell the manufacturer how many of each vehicle they want up front. Try to order a hatch, you can't. If there isn't one they can truck, drive, tow, to you, you aren't getting a hatch. Dealers (around here)didn't want the hatch, they typically ordered 2-3 a YEAR, once they were gone, that's it.
1) doesn't sell 2) Honda doesn't build enough 3) dealers can't make enough of profit 4) public is not aware of it in its 5th model year
Aren't the Ford dealers the ones who tell the factory what product they want on the lot?
Is the factory really pushing Focuses out of its doors (like in order to get 1 Expedition you-the dealer-have to sell 5 Focuses) I don't think so. And the big percentage of public still think that the Focus is ugly. Still the sells numbers speak for themselves. Do you think that the story will repeat itself if Honda would decide to bring the new hatch to America? As we see now on the example of ZX3 hatches sell.
I bought a new Civic hatch and love it, considered a Focus, wanted to buy domestic, but they were oh so new, lots of bells & whistles (which seem to fail in a few years (any brand) so that was that, hope I can say the same in 5 years ! Happy hatchbacking everyone !
oh and what happened to the aftermarket support for the Focus? Its very hard to get aftermarket parts for the car especially "performance parts" . Buy a civic and you will have NO trouble finding a aftermarket "performance" part like a flowmaster... the focus is not bad but wait till the NEW Civic hatchback comes back in 2002or so. But the new Civics are supposed to be more powerfull and the top ex model is supposed to have about 140-150 hp.
Ford marketed the Focus (hatch in particular) as a fun car for teens. Honda marketed their hatch as a utilitarian car for the everyday driver.
Honda didn't go for the young crowd, as a matter of fact, I can't recall the last time they marketed the hatch to anyone. When was the last time they did a print, internet, or television ad for the Civic hatch. Maybe 1990?
Had Honda tried to capture part of this segment with the aggressive advertising plan Ford has had for the Focus, things may have been different for the Civic hatch.
you just wish u could get a FOCUS ZX3 but u can 't cause u can;t afford such a little car.keep your old\ rusty civics. we focus owners will just zip by u like a train by a turtle. HA HA HA HA HA. FOCUS ZX3 RULES AND IT HURTS CIVIC OWNERS TO SEE A BETTER CAR OUT THERE ,A CAR RVERY BODY IS BUYING EVEN EX-CIVIC OWNERS.
I went to the races...unfortunately the guy I crewed for before lost his GTB at Watkins Glenn last year. According to him a guy with more money than brains cut him off, his car slid sideways in to a curb and did 2 barrel rolls. No more GTB. Too bad, it was a fast set up.
Comments
But some credit should be given where it's due. The Focus has managed to pull some decent sales #s and that is a big achievement for a Ford product.
With the new Civic only time will tell. The new design is kind of questionable but again, that's up to individual tastes. The base model Civic is supposed to have 115hp (9hp more) and the higher end (EX?) 130+, both with increased low end torque and more standard features. Peak torque is supposed to be achieved in the 4,000's RPM range (not at 5-6K as before) and most of it will be maintained accross the whole RPM band up to redline! Anyway, we 'll know in a month or so.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
http://www.vtec.net/news/items/422.html
focus- civic-golf.im strictly referring to body style only.what do you think?
the point of being annoying,at least to my ears.
quite frankly,ive found the zetec to be more re-
sponsive in the zx2 than the zx3.the smaller 4 in
the sedan is rather abysmal.if the ford svt boys
tweak a new engine,lets say 170hp,then you will have a nice little stock package.zetec is a nice
compromise with a little lively performace and
decent fuel economy.nothing spectacular on either
end.now the real star is the steering + road feel
with a fine-tuned suspension.
the new civic does look like a ford focus (front) and pt cruiser (rear in hatch) what i don't understand is why honda is pulling the hatch off the US market. the new hatch would be a perfect pt cruiser fighter, which has the market to itself now. and with chrysler's dependability, no matter how good looking the car is, people who wanted to buy a big (minivan like), and cheap hatch will flock to honda.
anybody from honda listening??????? i call it bad marketing???? go back to school!!!!! lol
The reason for this is that Honda has always been careful to provide excellent reliability with their cars in the US. Many Honda cars or engines debut in Japan first and about 1 year before they do in the US. This is so they can identify defects, if any, and correct them in time before they export them to the US and Canada. They have a huge reputation to protect in North America which is their most successful market (and largest one of 300M people and with the largest avg. income per capita) and they don't want to do anything to comprimise that. This is also the reason that new year models and new gen. Hondas don't come out till October in the US, where all the other manufacturers release their new models in August and some in July (I bought a '95 Galant on July 15th of '94..) The Civic SI (and its motor) have been out since '94 in various Civic models around the world. Also the Accord in Europe and Japan has optional motors with 207 and 215hp (4cyl DOHC) found in the Accord Type-R and Euro-R. These may be brought to the US as well in '02. That's fine by me. Let them iron out the bugs first and then bring them here. The Integra Type-R had come out in Sept. '96 in Japan. They didn't bring it to the US till May of '97 though. I think that 's a very good strategy. This is part of the reason Honda is so successful in North America.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Like only1harry points out, it may be that 'they' want to iron out the bugs in Europe or elsewhere first, but let's face it, too many exotic cars (large or small) never make it over here.
At the end of the day, I believe that it has something to do with a couple of things:
1/ US buyers are - on the average - not nearly as much car enthusiasts as their European friends overseas. (I'm not talking about the afficionados in these columns, but about the MAINSTREAM us buyer)
2/ a 'sue'em!' mentality which prevails in the US like nowhere else. A perfect example is the fact that stickshifts are equipped with a start-block feature in the US - why? easy to figure out!
The problem with the 'let's try it out elsewhere first' mentality is that it kills diversity, and at the end of the day, a 'NEW' model is really... a few years old.
Back in Europe, buyers are on average more keen to get the 'latest thing out there', even if that means that you get a few bugs with the cars. They are somewhat more apologetic of infant diseases.
At the end of the day, the people roaming these particular columns are attracted to smaller, stylish sporty cars with peppy engines and ...a stick shift. So am I. But take a drive down one of 'em dealer strips nowadays and don't tell me that you get all hot and excited from what you see... I know I don't.
I don't think you work for Honda, do you. :-)
So your theory is just as valid as mine.
I think Honda is dropping off the hatchback in order to streamline their product line and get rid of "unpopular slow selling" models.
According to the photos Honda made a good effort of trying to differentiate the hatchback from the more conservative sedan.
Assembling both models on the same assembly line brings additional tooling=costs.
Also you are saying that Honda want to eliminate the bugs before bringing the product to the U.S.
I believe that the 01'Civic is gonna be the first worldwide model launch for Honda, even if it comes to the japanese market a couple of months earlier than the american one.
Regarding the bugs. The Focus is on sale in Europe for almost 2 years. Still the U.S. Focus is not bug free at all. Why? Suppliers. It takes time for them to eliminate possible bugs too.
Honda's US Civic is not gonna have a lot of imported parts. And I doubt that Honda will start import the European performance versions.
Cost of certification and transportation plus currency fluctuations makes it too costly.
We found that the Focus had more room inside, better (fresher anyway)styling, bigger wheels, a couple of neat standard options and an (arguably) better engine in the 16 valve DOHC zetec.
On the other hand, the Civic has that good Honda history behind it, the seats fold flatter without taking up the rear cushion, and I felt that a few places showed higher quality materials (the back hatchspace cover, specifically, I thought was better)
All in all though, I was very happy with my ZX3 choice, and she was a bit envious of the looks of my car. If I'm still driving it in 13 years like she did her old car, I'll be suprised though.
Oh yeah, I paid 1,700$ less than she did, and I got more options.
We will test drive each other's cars soon and see what we think then.
The problem is that Honda is more concerned with sustaining their position in the middle-of-the-range market (4-door Civics and Accords) where they are so strong. It's all a matter of strategy as to how you want to market your products.
I'm not saying they are doing anything wrong, quite to the contrary. They'd be stupid not to concentrate on where their high-volume sales are.
Personally though, I think car manufacturers benefit from offering leading-edge novelties every now and then, because the image appeal trickles down to the more 'boring' cars of the range.
Offering 'fast' Civics (like the Si) is a way of hooking young (male?) drivers to the brand. It's a way of getting new buyers and winning brand loyalty. Likewise, on the 'high' end, you will always find 'adult kids' (like myself) who are attracted to powerful sedans. BMW and Audi's success can only attest to that - but granted, that's a completely different segment of the market - no Honda league.
Some manufacturers are 'all over the place'. I mentionned Audi, but that brand is really VW. And Volkswagen offers everthing from inexpensive hatches to extreme luxury cars (the A8, Rolls, or even the Countach). They will introduce an 8-cylinder engine on the passat this year.
So there is no 'technical' reason why Honda can't do the same. Sure, it may be that certification costs are high in the US for certain cars (I don't see where currency fluctuations come into play - it all depends where the car is built, and the US dollar has never been as strong as it is now anyway).
Some will say that Honda is too small a manufacturer and that they are the best in their playing field. I will agree to some extent. But by being too conservative and too 'bearish' they might be losing out on something very crucial to the car market. PASSION.
ONE trend in smaller cars, and namely hatchbacks over the past few years has been to prioritize functionalism in the form of increased space. The Focus is also an example of this evolution. Higher, more roomy - nearly van-like or SUV-like, like some have pointed out.
Clearly, the latest Honda hatch follows this trend.
The Megane Scenic is no beauty, but for it size, it provided dramatically improved space over traditional designs:
www.hbg.lth.se/~m97pog/poo/renault/renault/megane/scenic/scenic.htm
But they have always been on the forefront of trying out new designs. I found this site relating to the new Renault 'Avantime' ('avant' means before in French - thus, 'before its time'):
www.avantime.renault.com/anglais/flash.htm
3 liter V6/24V engine, 210 bhp and 290NM of torque (sorry, I don't have a conversion formula at hand).
S2000 is as much an image builder as the Prowler or the Viper. And this is what it is all about. These cars can bring public to the showroom and create traffic at the autoshows. This is their primary purpose.
In order to make money Honda better to shake off its conservatism and start make fast and wise desicions. Finally they are waking up to the truck-SUV craze.
Their new plant in Alabama is totally dedicated to trucks.
Can't say the same about their traditional lines.
The current Civic is still selling way too well for 5 year old design. This is what makes Honda so
hesitant to change their design direction.
The 01 looks so safe and boring. Yes it will sell well too, but will it attract the younger population as much as the 92-95 models did?
Too many of the real cool alternatives are coming to the market in every car, truck and everything inbetween segments during the next couple of years. And the aftermarket support will follow.
And this is 100% unmistakengly european, designed for the european tastes vehicle.
Do americans have a different taste?
I would say that there are plenty of people of every age in America who hate traditional trucks.
And the Focus proves the point.
euro counterparts is because the u.s. mfg. can
churn out their junk and still sell it. it wasnt
till the japanese,such as honda started to build
quality vehicles at reasonable prices to wake-up
the u.s. automakers.in my opinion, chrysler + g.m.
build less reliable vehicles than the competition.
you can make that argument when it comes to electronic products as well.vcr's and cellular phones come to mind. i can go into detail but its
off topic. computer os is another.
Hmmmmmmm....HONDA!
Who is playing catch up? Sure, Honda doesn't have the super nasty run over small cars take the extended family around the block with 10 gallons of gas SUV's that Ford does but, they are very well positioned with the CRV.
Thank you, and good day.
Not only do some Lexus and Acuras look exactly the same, but much of their design is directly drawn from Mercedes a few years back. Hardly anything that could light my fire. (and it seems they are bound to continue down this road of duplication... did anyone say 'BMW killer'????)
I don't like throwing stones at Honda, but really, they should get their act together. They have the potential brains in that company to compete head-to-head with the most glorious manufacturers out there. Unfortunately, it seems that some geeky bean counters are deciding on the strategy to use.
From what I remember from 1999 consumer satisfaction numbers. The Japanese do German better than Germany does German.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I never consiedered it as a SUV in the NA way.
And it's not a big money maker.(still being build in Japan with currently very unfavorable exc. rates)
It was Honda's response to the Toyota's RAV.
Designed for the Japanese market with grossly underpowered engine.
Since the gas prices are becoming more and more prohibitive small unibody SUVs are becoming more and more popular in NA.
At the same time new and vastly improved competitors are rolling out-2001 RAV and new to the market Escape/Tribute duo with the V6 option.
Yes the CRV is a bestselling small SUV for now.
But will it be able to keep it that way for long?
But will it be able to keep it that way for long?"
Nah, Honda will just let it die. (Is that what you're thinking?)
I don't recall the exact dates they were introduced but, are you sure the CRV is Honda's answer to the RAV4 or is it Honda's answer to a niche they felt needed to be filled at the same time Toyota felt it needed to be filled. At any rate, they did a hell of a job answering/filling that segment of the market.
I'm interested in numbers that back up your statement about it the CRV not being a money maker.
Thanks.
THe Ztec is a good engine and standard in the ZX3, whereas the vtechs are not even available in the Honda Hatches. I'm sure the standard Honda 4 is very good, but the ztech is an upgrade from a normal 4 cylinder.
I did say arguably!
Just it will not be as easy to maintain the bestselling status as it was before.
The profit statistics?
The automanufacturers in general don't like to make those numbers wildly available.
Especially Honda. Just about everything at Honda is a closely guarded secret. And I'm not aware of any source (unless you are an insider) where you can obtain THAT kind of information.
Therefore my statements in regards of the CRV profitability are based solely on common knowledge.
If I'm missing something, please prove me wrong.
The vtech used to be offered in Honda's hatch, if it still was this thread would be useless, the Honda would win hands down. Unfortunately, Honda abandoned the Si hatch.
If the base CR-V (according to Honda's web sight) has an M.S.R.P. of $19,500 + Tax & title, and it is built on a chassis they already make how are they not raking in the bucks? Do you think it costs them $7,000 more to make a BASE CR-V from my DX Hatch? I don't. I think they're probably doing pretty damn good.
I'm not sure about this but, does Honda have to send all of it's money back to Japan just because the vehicle was made in Japan? Can that money be funnelled to it's NA operations. If it doesn't have to be converted to Yen then the US dollar being strong has little to do with anything.
So the vehicle in general will cost you more just because it was made in Japan.
And yen is very strong nowdays, not US dollar.(in yen/dollar relation)
Those japanese workers and component supplyers have to be paid every day. I don't see any way to keep US currency earned on the Japanese made product in the US unless you use it for the expansion purposes.
It is configured that way.
Isn't the reason Honda so light heartedly dropped it off even when the rest of the manuf. are fiercely battling each other with new low cost models (Focus/Echo). The Focus was designed to be profitable at prices it is currently selling for.
Not the Honda hatch.(even if it's being build in the US by the nonunion workforce)
So that $7K gap between CRV and Civic you are talking about is much smaller.
Please, please, please, tell me how the Focus was "designed" to be profitable at these prices. Something concrete. Real facts.
Personally, the reason I'd say they are suspending the hatch would have to do with (as talked about before) getting it right then bringing it here. I think the hatch hasn't done well here because DEALERS don't make enough off of each car and they don't care to carry or promote them.
Civic to Echo is a better match, and more competitive comparison.
Lets quit this topic, it's a misfired missile.
And please explain why do you think Honda holds off the 01hatch to get it right while starting production of the sedans and coupes practically simultaneously around the world? I don't see anything special about the hatch in that respect. It is still the same 01 Civic with different sheet metal.
Concrete facts?
You will have to trust me until somebody can offer the REAL facts. I simply don't have time to dig now. If you will still interested I'll post the numbers as I come accros in the future.
All I can say that with the advance of the CAD systems every new design is being optimized in every way to be cheaper to assemble (less parts=less time), to have cheaper components (supplyer bidding wars)and be cheaper to service. Placing the final assembly in Mexico also would help (the Focus hatch place of birth).
Buh Bye.
yea, this is my point.
Some extraverts really hate when their neighbor's car attracts more of attention than their own.
I'm just saying that this car(or truck?) sells itself out basing on the looks alone.(My english really sucks). The dealer doesn't have to promote the truly outstanding product.
And how much will they want for the turbo Cruiser?
MSRP x 2 ???
As a side note, notice how many times a certain magazines car of the year reflects the car of the year as choosen by readers. That should tell you something.
Drive by a Ford dealer (around here anyway) and you'll see 5-10 Focuses lined up (usually 1 or 2 ZX3's). Drive by a Honda dealers (around here), and there are no new Civic hatches, only used. Honda dealers are the ones who tell the manufacturer how many of each vehicle they want up front. Try to order a hatch, you can't. If there isn't one they can truck, drive, tow, to you, you aren't getting a hatch. Dealers (around here)didn't want the hatch, they typically ordered 2-3 a YEAR, once they were gone, that's it.
1) doesn't sell
2) Honda doesn't build enough
3) dealers can't make enough of profit
4) public is not aware of it in its 5th model year
Aren't the Ford dealers the ones who tell the factory what product they want on the lot?
Is the factory really pushing Focuses out of its doors (like in order to get 1 Expedition you-the dealer-have to sell 5 Focuses)
I don't think so.
And the big percentage of public still think that the Focus is ugly.
Still the sells numbers speak for themselves.
Do you think that the story will repeat itself if Honda would decide to bring the new hatch to America?
As we see now on the example of ZX3 hatches sell.
Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://freeweb.pdq.net/rfruth
1981 Raleigh for commuting, errands & fun
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun !
2000 Civic hatchback (DX, 1.6 L, stock, 35 MPG)
the focus is not bad but wait till the NEW Civic hatchback comes back in 2002or so. But the new Civics are supposed to be more powerfull and the top ex model is supposed to have about 140-150 hp.
Honda didn't go for the young crowd, as a matter of fact, I can't recall the last time they marketed the hatch to anyone. When was the last time they did a print, internet, or television ad for the Civic hatch. Maybe 1990?
Had Honda tried to capture part of this segment with the aggressive advertising plan Ford has had for the Focus, things may have been different for the Civic hatch.
for the Focus? Its very hard to get aftermarket
parts for the car especially "performance parts""
What happened? What do you mean what happened.
The car just arrived on the market 10 months ago? What do you expect?
HA HA HA HA HA. FOCUS ZX3 RULES AND IT HURTS CIVIC OWNERS TO SEE A BETTER CAR OUT THERE ,A CAR RVERY BODY IS BUYING EVEN EX-CIVIC OWNERS.
Oh... before I forget... MY car is better than YOURS!
doodoobidoodoo
I think I'm convinced!