Have you read my posts? I am not able to replace my Suburban with anything that resembles a more economical car. In fact, I can's replace my Suburban with any other SUV except another Suburban with the LARGEST motor they make according to the rules of this program
I'll go back to the statement that I've made multiple times. This bill was written by the auto industry itself for its own benefit. If you have an older clunker such as your Suburban then they want to give you the option to trade it on another similar vehicle. They are in the business of selling high-margin SUVs to those that want and need them. The bill serves the purposes of those that created it. Now, it may not serve your purposes but it serves theirs.
It will not apply to every consumer in the US, that's impossible. The bill will apply to a HUGE number of Explorer, JGC, Minivan, mid-90s V8 truck owners that number in the tens of millions. These vehicles will be traded and destroyed as planned by the creators of the bill. Mission accomplished.
I remember my parents thinking about buying a new SUV back in the 1990s. I asked, "What the heck do you guys need an SUV for? All us kids are grown-up and out of the house a long time." "Ah, we need it for the winter and the snow." "Uh, what did you do for the past 30 years or so?" Heck, I got by fine with a RWD 1968 Buick Special Deluxe wagon and studded snow tires. Heck, all you need is an FWD vehicle for snow and adverse weather conditions if you don't want to bother with snow tires.
Yesterday went to 2 Toyota Dealers and they won't sell for less than the MSRP on the vehicle. With the last dealer I talked with the person in charge of setting the price and he basically said that this program could cost them the entire rebate if something on the clunker is not filled out right or it hasn't had insurance the past year or been registered. Seems to me like this program will be a boon, profit wise for the dealer.Have never paid MSRP on a new vehicle and the dealer will be able to get half or more of the rebate.
Don't tell them you have cash for clunkers and negotiate the price first.
Yes, it's true that they can eat the cost of the rebate if the paperwork isn't filled out correctly. BUT, it's up to them to ensure all of your paperwork IS filled out correctly. You need a clean title in hand, proof of 365 days of insurance (this would probably be your last two insurance cards), and 365 days of registration (again, two separate slips) all in your name.
Go to a dealer with this all in hand and negotiate the price first. If they ask you if you are using CARS, deflect the question. Just say "I am interested in buying a car today, what is the best price you can give me."
Once you have a WRITTEN (NOT verbal) estimate of OTD cost in hand (price plus taxes fees and licensing), then tell them that you will be taking an additional $4500 or 3500 off for CARS and provide them with all of your documentation. If your documentation is complete, don't buy that "we may have to eat the cost" B.S.
You should also not pay any additional charge for using the rebate. There is a paper that you sign that specifies "The dealer cannot charge you extra for using this program".
For simplicity, contact AAA or Costco and use their program. I looked at both rate sheets as of yesterday and all models (with exception of '10 hybrids) are pricing closer to Invoice than MSRP. The dealership cannot deviate from this set pricing or you can report them to Costco or AAA and they'd lose their participation in the program.
I'm not sure. California always taxes rebates, so I expected to be taxed on this. I did my transaction on Monday and the fleet manager just hung up the phone with his general manager and said, no, the $4500 is NOT taxed! I was surprised and asked "are you absolutely sure about this, because rebates in CA are always taxed!" The manager responded that the GM went over rules really carefully and just unearthed the exception. The $4500 is not to be taxed.
The civilian version of the Crown Vic should qualify, unless the EPA's fudging some numbers again and exploring the magic of "New Math". I just went to their website, and they have the civilian model down as 18 combined (16/23) and the copcar version down as 17 combined (15/21).
Back in those days, there was more of a difference between the copcar and civilian model. The civilian model had around 190 hp, single exhaust, and an axle ratio something like 2.73:1. Copcars had dual exhaust, and something like 224 hp. Standard axle on the copcars was something like 3.23 or 3.31:1, with a 3.55:1 being optional.
I think these days, the civilian and cop versions of that engine are both rated at 224 hp. I don't think the dual exhaust changes the hp rating any, although it might help give it a better hp/torque curve.
We sent a request for quote to 3 local dealerships. I explained in my email to each of them that I was planning to test drive at the dealership who could give me the best initial quote. So, we test drove at dealer 1, then dealer 2 asked how he could get my business, I told him to beat dealer 1's price. He did and then we sprung the clunker on him. They lose nothing by giving you the same deal as anyone else. We ended up getting our Mazda5 Touring for $18,050, sticker was around $21,800. Take the $4,500 off of that. We brought our clunker in yesterday and here we are with our new car.
It's illegal. The government already pays dealership a fee to disable the engine of the clunker. The CARS law specifically says dealer can't charge any fee to the consumer.
Szandee, Dealer can't charge you a fee. They are allowed to keep $50 from the scrap value. I'd let them know this, and if they don't give it back report it to NHTSA.
Oh no! That's terrible. IMHO, the dealers were warned by the gov't not to finalize any deals before yesterday. I'm sorry for the dealership, they won't see that $4500, but they should not have completed those deals. I really don't see how this is your issue to solve.
Our dealer yesterday went through the whole computerized system to get the "approval" from the system before he would hand us the keys. That's the way it should be done. I bet there are lots of people out there who bought Hundai's early and are now in the same situation.
Hyundai is going to take a hit on some of their deals. They started on July 1st. How they did it without all the necessary paperwork is ???? I believe the mfg. gave the dealers the green light, so the mfg. will probably be the one that takes the hit if the mileage figures don't jive???
the criteria changed from the time you used it to today, which is also possible.
Yes the criteria has changed. It showed the Tundra at -3 MPG and $4500 trade value for the 92 Chev C1500. So they are fine tuning their program. Not that it will please those that were mislead.
Hopefully you will post your honest appraisal of this program in a month from now.
If you still owe on the car like I do, DON'T BOTHER!!!!! The car has to be paid for so you are still stuck with the same old clunker.......There is always a catch with the government!!!!!!!
I am going out on a limb here but if you still owe money on a "clunker," I am not sure it's all that good of an idea to get saddled with a bigger loan even with a rebate.
A national newspaper is looking to speak to consumers who financed through GMAC and got approved or tried to finance through GMAC and didn’t get approved. Please send your daytime phone number and the vehicle you own to ctalati@edmunds.com by Thursday, July 30, 2009.
I don't understand the reasoning behind all SUV's, mini-vans, etc. placed in Category 1. Specifically Chevy Tahoe and Suburban models. The car industry originally lobbied for these vehicles to be labeled "trucks" in order to avoid the MPG/Emissions requirements for passenger vehicles. Additionally, many states tax these larger SUV's as "trucks". Now we are told that our 1995 Tahoe is not considered a Cat 2 truck even though it has longer wheel base, bigger engine, gets less MPG than many of the "real trucks" in Cat 2. The original Tahoe was built on the exact same truck chassis in 1995 as the Silverado pickup. Can anyone help us to understand why the Tahoe, Suburban, and other large SUV's are considered the same as the smallest mini-vans? I realize that this is not the only glitch in the system---thanks to all of you for sharing your stories and questions. Also have a recently inherited 1997 Lincoln Towncar which would have been a great car to trade for small starter vehicle for college-bound daughter, however I can't meet the one year ownership/ insurance requirement. I am an attorney, but almost feel the need to hire some other lawyer to advise me---just a little joke. All of the good responses on this site are slowly, but surely clarifying the issues.
Yes, I sent your info to our PR people, who passed it on - thanks for agreeing to provide comments! See? We *do* read what you folks write.
I think that article is well-written, too, and provides info indicating that affected consumers should try contacting the NHTSA.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
maybe they can make an exception for those, since the changes were at the last minute. why put the screws to the sellers and buyers over a few 10ths of a mpg?
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
So, we test drove at dealer 1, then dealer 2 asked how he could get my business, I told him to beat dealer 1's price.
Since dealer 1 went through the trouble of giving you the test drive, did you give dealer 1 the opportunity to beat dealer 2's offer? Just wondering cause if I was dealer 1 who took the time out only to have dealer 2 throw a cheaper price without an opportunity to beat him I'd be pissed.
(c) One credit per person. A person may participate in a transaction for which a credit is issued under the CARS Program, whether as a single owner or as a joint-registered owner of either an eligible trade-in vehicle, a new vehicle or both, may not participate or be named in another transaction for which credit is issued under the CARS program, either as a registered owner of the trade-in vehicle or as a purchaser of the new vehicle
We live in California and have two cars which meet all of the requirements. However both cars are registered as Mr. OR Mrs. Rnittany
Does the above mean that we can't trade in two clunkers on two new cars - even though we are two people because the titles and registrations are listed at Mr OR Mrs? Does anyone know what the DMV or Fed views this as for the purposed of CARS? Could we trade in one used car as Mr and buy and new car as Mr, and then trade in the other car as Mrs and buy a second new car as Mrs?
Thanks for any insight - legal references especially appreciated to show to the car dealer.
One last thing - what happens if I do the second CARS deal at a second dealer - is this being tracked? Best to do it before all of the paperwork hits, is is there no tracking of this a trade-in time?
I too have a 1995 Tahoe that qualified on Sat. night and sun. morning I no longer qualified. I am dumbfounded has to how a full size tahoe is in the catagory as a mid-size truck. This is what happens when you have law maker who know nothing about autos get involved in the auto business. I have no Idea has how to correct this.
I stand corrected. After spending 97 minutes on hold today I was infomed that we do indeed give a portion to the customer. So we negotiated a deal with a scrap yard and are giving $200 to everyone who has already purchased.
Maybe I am confused but all Tahoes are marked as Cat 1 trucks and they all have combined mpgs below 18. You can trade them in agaianst any other cat 1 truck or any passenger car as long as the passenger car gets better then 22 combined. The truck just needs to get better then 18.
You can't trade it in for a Cat 2 truck because the Tahoe is still a light duty vehicle. Yes it is full sized but its GVWR is below 8,500 lbs.
That was generous and will probably reap rewards with return customers. I would have just considered it negotiable and part of the dickering process. I do hope you get your money from Sam in a reasonable time frame. I know the government can get bogged down with red tape.
The process is ridiculous. I spent all day trying to claim the first one and the site times me out when I try to go from page 1 to page 2. Happend at least 10 times
I've had my truck for 8 years now, but it's been registered under my parents' names up until September of last year. Therefore, the truck has officially been registered in my name for only 10 months. Will I be able to qualify for the program in regards to the insurance/registration rule since it has been insured over the last year (2 months-parents, 10 months-myself)?
1) people with money that are frugal, and keep an old car until it dies. Perfect for the CFC program 2) broke people with lousy credit that can't afford anything better. 3) Kids.
Needless to say, 2 and 3 aren't likely to be trading in on a new car!
Since dealer 1 went through the trouble of giving you the test drive, did you give dealer 1 the opportunity to beat dealer 2's offer?
Apparently dealer 1 screwed up by not closing the deal when they had the chance. O.P was under no obligation to go back to dealer 1. Very few people have the time to bounce back and forth to make sure no one gets peed off at them. Dealer 1 probably gets sales the same way, when dealership 2 doesn't close a deal.
With a high demand for new vehicles in the C4C program, we may see more dealerships being more reluctant at selling below MSRP... especially if there inventories start to fall. Anyone with projections on C4C sales volume and what it will do to new car inventories?
Your assertion about the fueleconomy.gov "calculator" that was developed a couple of years ago seems generally correct. At the time, it probably wasn't necessary to go back in time to calculate with absolute precision the fuel economy of say a 1986 vehicle with the new test methods (effecting with model year 2008) applied. But now with the CARS program, precision and consistency over all model years is important and that's probably the reason behind the data QA/QC. Have you tried contacting someone at NHTSA about this? Were they able to help you or did they refer you to EPA? Just curious.
But of course. There is more to the story, I'll ellaborate.
In the end, the dealbreaker for me was when I told dealer #1 that we had a clunker and replied "we're a smaller dealership and I don't even know if we'll participate". I told him to let me know when he thought he might know...never heard from him again. I felt that dealer 1 gave us a fair deal and because he wasn't interested in hearing about my clunker, I moved on and asked dealer 2 to beat that fair offer. He did. It actually worked out that dealer 1 never contacted us again, he must not have minded losing the sale because of the clunker thing.
I'm so uncomfortable with the negotiation game, I would do ANYTHING to have the price of the car be the price of the car and that's that. But, I know a ton of people who play much harder than I did. People "waste" dealers time all the time. Remember...it's their game...not mine. Heck, I've heard of people taking test drives just to get freebies....now that's wasting time!
I agree, I hate negotiating and I hate to waste the dealers' time since that means wasting my time as well. I've emailed a few dealers with what I am looking for and I told them up front that I will be using CARS so there's no surprise. I will probably visit the top 2 or so if the price is reasonable and the tone of the email is friendly.
I placed a hold with my local dealership on a particular vehicle with the price locked in. It's all verbal, but I'm okay with giving them my trust, The deal will not go through until our CARS application has been officially approved. Our application was supposed to have been filed yesterday, but it sounded like the filing process was a bit unreliable yesterday (Monday). Has it improved?
And has anyone's application actually been officially approved? If yes, when did you file? Wish there were a way to monitor the filing status for each application, but that's probably asking too much.
I agree with the approach of our dealer even though I'm dying to get my new car. If some customer drives a new car off the lot and later it turns out his application is denied, it puts everyone in a bad position to reverse the deal, which seems to have happened to some users on this forum.
I'm clueless.. please help! I've had my truck for 5 years (car loan in my name) Truck qualifies for CARS Registered in my name, Insured in my name. (past 5 years) Paid off the loan a month ago, and just received the title. Will I qualify?
I went to go look for a new car yesterday because my truck is almost 13 years old and it could give out any day. We were excited to get to use the Cash For Klunkers thing to get a cheaper new car.
When we went to the dealership, we were told we definitely qualified. So we found a car I liked, which, with the rebate and other discounts PLUS the CFK, I would have had a NEW 09 for only about 6k. Seriously?! I am a 20 year old with no credit. The economy sucks and they make it so hard to get a car. I need to be able to get to school and to work in a reliable car.
So we get down to the paperwork and find out we don't qualify for it. Wtf? They had gone in and edited the EPA Combined Mileage to 1 above 18. I am so angry. This has nothing to do with wanting to make the country greener. If they want to do that, they would reuse all the good parts on old cars to build new ones. Crushing them and throwing them in a giant hole is not greener.
I am not an Obama supporter. If he really wishes to make me even more angry, he should continue. But really, if he wanted to help the generation that is probably going to decide what happens to this planet, he would be more leniant on the requirements.
The CARS Program has a 24 hour hotline for reporting fraud, 1-800-424-9071. The CARS program web site states that the program started on July 1st. Not honoring the list of eligible vehicles on the official list provided on July 1st is fraud. Can we call the hotline to report THEM?
I shopped around for a Toyota Rav4 Limited about three weeks before the Clunker Program went into place. I live in Tallahassee, FL. It was done on the Internet and I demanded a written out the door price because the al on fees can kill you if you only ask for the price of the vehicle. Always deal with the Internet Manager ONLY. I didn't mention the Clunker Program. The prices were all over the place for same exact vehicle. The highest price was from a Toyota dealer who was supposedly giving me the special Sam's Club Auto Buyers Program price. It was $1,800 higher than another place's straight bottom line price. I ended up buying from the lowest price dealer about 30 miles from here. It was a smooth purchase with no games, but I haven't received my net salvage value check yet. I'll likely get it next week. As you can see, it is possible to get a new Toyota below MSRP.
Trade: 1994 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 SLT Laramie 5.9L Auto-11mpg Bought new in Oct. 1993 Been a decent truck but was ready for some spendy repairs-tranny rebuild, front end etc. Also, previous usage isn't future usage...heavy towing etc.
Purchased: 2009 Nissan Frontier SE 4cyl. auto, power, bedliner-19mpg First measured tank was 22.1 mpg mixed driving... Solid truck and eally isn't that small.
Got 4.99% from local CU, $650 CU rebate, $3000 Nissan rebate, $4500 CFC = $14,350 OTD
Comments
I'll go back to the statement that I've made multiple times. This bill was written by the auto industry itself for its own benefit. If you have an older clunker such as your Suburban then they want to give you the option to trade it on another similar vehicle. They are in the business of selling high-margin SUVs to those that want and need them. The bill serves the purposes of those that created it. Now, it may not serve your purposes but it serves theirs.
It will not apply to every consumer in the US, that's impossible. The bill will apply to a HUGE number of Explorer, JGC, Minivan, mid-90s V8 truck owners that number in the tens of millions. These vehicles will be traded and destroyed as planned by the creators of the bill. Mission accomplished.
Sandy
This sucks.
Yes, it's true that they can eat the cost of the rebate if the paperwork isn't filled out correctly. BUT, it's up to them to ensure all of your paperwork IS filled out correctly. You need a clean title in hand, proof of 365 days of insurance (this would probably be your last two insurance cards), and 365 days of registration (again, two separate slips) all in your name.
Go to a dealer with this all in hand and negotiate the price first. If they ask you if you are using CARS, deflect the question. Just say "I am interested in buying a car today, what is the best price you can give me."
Once you have a WRITTEN (NOT verbal) estimate of OTD cost in hand (price plus taxes fees and licensing), then tell them that you will be taking an additional $4500 or 3500 off for CARS and provide them with all of your documentation. If your documentation is complete, don't buy that "we may have to eat the cost" B.S.
You should also not pay any additional charge for using the rebate. There is a paper that you sign that specifies "The dealer cannot charge you extra for using this program".
For simplicity, contact AAA or Costco and use their program. I looked at both rate sheets as of yesterday and all models (with exception of '10 hybrids) are pricing closer to Invoice than MSRP. The dealership cannot deviate from this set pricing or you can report them to Costco or AAA and they'd lose their participation in the program.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/28/autos/clunker_mpg_switch/index.htm?postversion=2- 009072813
Back in those days, there was more of a difference between the copcar and civilian model. The civilian model had around 190 hp, single exhaust, and an axle ratio something like 2.73:1. Copcars had dual exhaust, and something like 224 hp. Standard axle on the copcars was something like 3.23 or 3.31:1, with a 3.55:1 being optional.
I think these days, the civilian and cop versions of that engine are both rated at 224 hp. I don't think the dual exhaust changes the hp rating any, although it might help give it a better hp/torque curve.
Dealer can't charge you a fee. They are allowed to keep $50 from the scrap value. I'd let
them know this, and if they don't give it back report it to NHTSA.
Our dealer yesterday went through the whole computerized system to get the "approval" from the system before he would hand us the keys. That's the way it should be done. I bet there are lots of people out there who bought Hundai's early and are now in the same situation.
Yes the criteria has changed. It showed the Tundra at -3 MPG and $4500 trade value for the 92 Chev C1500. So they are fine tuning their program. Not that it will please those that were mislead.
Hopefully you will post your honest appraisal of this program in a month from now.
I think that article is well-written, too, and provides info indicating that affected consumers should try contacting the NHTSA.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
why put the screws to the sellers and buyers over a few 10ths of a mpg?
Since dealer 1 went through the trouble of giving you the test drive, did you give dealer 1 the opportunity to beat dealer 2's offer? Just wondering cause if I was dealer 1 who took the time out only to have dealer 2 throw a cheaper price without an opportunity to beat him I'd be pissed.
And people wonder why dealers "lowball".
(c) One credit per person. A person may participate in a transaction for which a credit is issued under the CARS Program, whether as a single owner or as a joint-registered owner of either an eligible trade-in vehicle, a new vehicle or both, may not participate or be named in another transaction for which credit is issued under the CARS program, either as a registered owner of the trade-in vehicle or as a purchaser of the new vehicle
We live in California and have two cars which meet all of the requirements. However both cars are registered as Mr. OR Mrs. Rnittany
Does the above mean that we can't trade in two clunkers on two new cars - even though we are two people because the titles and registrations are listed at Mr OR Mrs? Does anyone know what the DMV or Fed views this as for the purposed of CARS? Could we trade in one used car as Mr and buy and new car as Mr, and then trade in the other car as Mrs and buy a second new car as Mrs?
Thanks for any insight - legal references especially appreciated to show to the car dealer.
One last thing - what happens if I do the second CARS deal at a second dealer - is this being tracked? Best to do it before all of the paperwork hits, is is there no tracking of this a trade-in time?
Thanks for bringing it to my attention folks
You can't trade it in for a Cat 2 truck because the Tahoe is still a light duty vehicle. Yes it is full sized but its GVWR is below 8,500 lbs.
1) people with money that are frugal, and keep an old car until it dies. Perfect for the CFC program
2) broke people with lousy credit that can't afford anything better.
3) Kids.
Needless to say, 2 and 3 aren't likely to be trading in on a new car!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Apparently dealer 1 screwed up by not closing the deal when they had the chance. O.P was under no obligation to go back to dealer 1. Very few people have the time to bounce back and forth to make sure no one gets peed off at them. Dealer 1 probably gets sales the same way, when dealership 2 doesn't close a deal.
With a high demand for new vehicles in the C4C program, we may see more dealerships being more reluctant at selling below MSRP... especially if there inventories start to fall. Anyone with projections on C4C sales volume and what it will do to new car inventories?
In the end, the dealbreaker for me was when I told dealer #1 that we had a clunker and replied "we're a smaller dealership and I don't even know if we'll participate". I told him to let me know when he thought he might know...never heard from him again. I felt that dealer 1 gave us a fair deal and because he wasn't interested in hearing about my clunker, I moved on and asked dealer 2 to beat that fair offer. He did. It actually worked out that dealer 1 never contacted us again, he must not have minded losing the sale because of the clunker thing.
I'm so uncomfortable with the negotiation game, I would do ANYTHING to have the price of the car be the price of the car and that's that. But, I know a ton of people who play much harder than I did. People "waste" dealers time all the time. Remember...it's their game...not mine. Heck, I've heard of people taking test drives just to get freebies....now that's wasting time!
And has anyone's application actually been officially approved? If yes, when did you file? Wish there were a way to monitor the filing status for each application, but that's probably asking too much.
I agree with the approach of our dealer even though I'm dying to get my new car. If some customer drives a new car off the lot and later it turns out his application is denied, it puts everyone in a bad position to reverse the deal, which seems to have happened to some users on this forum.
I've had my truck for 5 years (car loan in my name)
Truck qualifies for CARS
Registered in my name, Insured in my name. (past 5 years)
Paid off the loan a month ago, and just received the title.
Will I qualify?
This program will be lucky to make it till Friday
GP
If what you say is correct than yes
GP
Earlier this year, my truck did qualify.
I went to go look for a new car yesterday because my truck is almost 13 years old and it could give out any day. We were excited to get to use the Cash For Klunkers thing to get a cheaper new car.
When we went to the dealership, we were told we definitely qualified. So we found a car I liked, which, with the rebate and other discounts PLUS the CFK, I would have had a NEW 09 for only about 6k. Seriously?! I am a 20 year old with no credit. The economy sucks and they make it so hard to get a car. I need to be able to get to school and to work in a reliable car.
So we get down to the paperwork and find out we don't qualify for it. Wtf? They had gone in and edited the EPA Combined Mileage to 1 above 18. I am so angry. This has nothing to do with wanting to make the country greener. If they want to do that, they would reuse all the good parts on old cars to build new ones. Crushing them and throwing them in a giant hole is not greener.
I am not an Obama supporter. If he really wishes to make me even more angry, he should continue. But really, if he wanted to help the generation that is probably going to decide what happens to this planet, he would be more leniant on the requirements.
And we have a newly minted topic: Watching out for Fraud
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Bought new in Oct. 1993 Been a decent truck but was ready for some spendy repairs-tranny rebuild, front end etc. Also, previous usage isn't future usage...heavy towing etc.
Purchased: 2009 Nissan Frontier SE 4cyl. auto, power, bedliner-19mpg
First measured tank was 22.1 mpg mixed driving...
Got 4.99% from local CU, $650 CU rebate, $3000 Nissan rebate, $4500 CFC = $14,350 OTD
How'd I do?
If your truck gets 18 mpg or less and the new vehicle qualifies.
Go to cars.gov and click on the fuel economy tab and put in your truck and what you want to buy to see how much you qualify for.