Cash for Clunkers - Does it Work for You?

blaze72

I was just quoted by a dealer in Salem, OR a cash price for a new car of $15,538, but if I traded in my 'clunker' that is worth $4,500, the price would be $12,077.

Now call me a fool, but that only amounts to a credit of $3,461. Hmm...why the difference? The dealer gets reimbursed the full $4,500, correct? From what I've read unders the CARS program rules, this would clearly be violating the rules for the dealer and they could be fined or even suspended from the program.

Any advice on how to handle this? Should I file a complaint with the NHTSA?

Obviously, I won't be doing business with this dealer, but I hate to see them allowed to continue to cheat others out of their C4C rebates.

tidester

but would you do it every day?

Obviously not but those trips would be equivalent to MANY MANY days of commuting. :shades:

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

rik1

I have an 89 Bronco II that's a true clunker. When I got inspected last year it passed but I doubt it would again. The truck is driveable but just barely (hole in muffler, shocks are shot, etc). Just how driveable does a car/truck have to be in order to considered?

tidester

another unintended side effect from C4C, a stressed out sales person

Maybe we ought to propose a "Cash for Counseling" program? We'd get to keep the C4C abbreviation.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

tidester

Why the lack of faith with the U.S Government in getting paid back?

I think the concern is that reimbursement may be denied if you haven't crossed your eyes and dotted all your tees.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

british_rover

I would say as long as it drives around the block then it is fine.

We took in a jeep that was frankly unsafe at highway speed because of tranny issues and the brakes were nearly shot. It was fine around town but just couldn't hold top gear or accelerate well.

phamj

The quoted price of a new car should be independent of how a customer pay for it. Paying cash or financing or taking advantage of cash-for-clunker program.

Check out the Special Notice by the government and show it to the dealer that you plan to by a car with.

http://www.boe.ca.gov/news/pdf/l230.pdf

See the example on page 2.

Hope this helps.

pjgirl74

I am having a similar issue with a local dealer. I requested a price quote online, and the first email he sent back to me he offered me about $1500 off the MSRP. I emailed him back and told him I would also be participating in the CARS program. he then emailed me back stating that they will not combine the two. I am wondering if this is legal. I went to the CARS official website and found this, which should apply to your situation also: "The CARS Act requires the dealer to use the credit under the CARS program in addition to any rebates or discounts advertised by the dealer or offered by the new vehicle's manufacturer. The dealer may not use the credit to offset these rebates and discounts." So it sounds like your dealer and mine are both not abiding by the CARS rules. Wonder if there is anything that can be done about it?

tidester

So it sounds like your dealer and mine are both not abiding by the CARS rules.

According to the quote you supplied, that would be true only if the discounted price was advertised or offered by the manufacturer. An offer by the dealer is not the same as an offer from the manufacturer. I'd try another dealer who may not be so persnickety.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

1949ford

C4C has no consumer protections built in and the buyer is at the mercy of the dealer under this legislation. Believe you, we and others have not been treated fairly, professionally as many dealer's goal is simply to get as much money out of the consumer as possible. Customer satisfaction is not part of their mindsets and the only thing you can do is to walk or tell others. Its short sited and gives all dealers a bad reputation. See the gallop poll on auto dealers and note where they rank...only takes a few to ruin all auto dealers reputation which has been the case. I have been lucky up to now. Nine good dealers have sold me 20 cars and one dealer has altered my faith and belief in buying a car from GM.

joegiant

One of the really cool things about our purchasing experience under the CARS program: The GM at our dealership was not only a partner in the company but a LAWYER as well. Needless to say, the paperwork was in order when we went to the finance guy to sign the stack of stuff. The voucher amount was subtracted and then sales tax was applied. Wonder how many are taxing the full selling price.

Interesting link phami. Danks!

oldfarmer50

"...I'd try another dealer who may not be so persnickety..."

At the risk of being called picky I'd say someone has been watching the end of O'Riley again. :P

oldfarmer50

"...Wonder how many are taxing the full selling price..."

Varies from state to state. Here in NY they tax everything...including the hat you wore to the store.

srs_49

The fact that we aren't offering as much support for the international price of oil thus not supporting countries that hate us and/or would do us harm is an issue which threatens us. The other issue is one that we can deal with internally but which doesn't threaten us.

'Energy security' also means that by using less we don't have to fight and compete as hard for the limited supplies of oil with the massive demands of India and China.

Exactly! It was good national policy, irrespective of where it originated from, to require a significant gas mileage improvement with the replacement vehicle in the CFC program.

FWIW, it would have made more sense to have a sliding scale of subsidies - the bigger the gas mileage improvement between your clunker and the new vehicle, the bigger the subsidy (as some other posters have said).

tidester

LoL! No, I didn't pick that one up from O'Reilly but I try not to be a popinjay. :P

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

patti11

Thank you Chaudry and everyone else for your advice re my post..."Can Someone Please Help", in regards to trying to get documentation for registration for one full year. Waiting nearly two weeks with nothing from the DMV, and based on your advice and that of others, I'm putting on my combat boots and will do battle with the DMV first this morning! I'll post back here in the hopes of guiding others who find themselves in the same situation.,

Again, many thanks to all of you for your advice!!

kdhspyder

The process is cumbersome but now after a week it's beginning to flow smoothly. At first everything was feeling around in the dark. Now it's not. At first no dealer had ever done anything like this before now after two weeks its flowing normally.

Reimbursements are coming in as scheduled.

kdhspyder

Yes correct.

Here's the difference. The dealer MUST offer you the full manufacturer rebate or discount. He doesn't have to offer you any discount from his markup. But that holds true every day of the year in every store in the country.

stephen987

But if he does offer you a discount from his markup before you mention the Clunker, isn't he required to honor that same discount when the Clunker becomes part of the deal?

kdhspyder

The example on Pg 2 is accurate if you'e paying full sticker. Note that the BOE says nothing about any dealer discount. This was a notice to dealers that their 'cost basis' for their tax purposes was being reduced for income tax purposes. It's an important issue for the dealers.

joel0622

Ya whats a 1/4 of a million $$ laying around, no big deal

dog007dog

What if you go through Costco, AAA, American Express, or some other auto buying program the dealer is bound through an agreement with them to charge only so much over invoice. Thats the route I would take.

dennis_m

From the number of posts on the internet forums, there appears to be a large number of Cash for Clunkers applications that have been or will be rejected because the owners were a few days late in renewing their car registration. I have read of unverified estimates that the NHTSA was rejecting 20% of the applications of Minnesota residents.

I believe there is a misinterpretation by the NHTSA of the Consumer Assistance to Recycle and Save Act of 2009 (CARS) concerning registration requirements of the trade-in. This misinterpretation is causing a great number of unfounded application rejections by NHTSA. Below is a comparison of the legislation as passed by Congress (the Law) and the implementing rules developed by the NHTSA (the Rule). The Law and the Rule are both available on the official CARS site – cars.gov

“The Law”

In the definitions section (i) of the Law, an eligible trade-in vehicle is described in the following excerpt. Item (B) only place in the Law where it addresses vehicle registration.

(7) the term `eligible trade-in vehicle' means an automobile or a work truck (as such terms are defined in section 32901(a) of title 49, United States Code) that, at the time it is presented for trade-in under this section-¬

(A) is in drivable condition;

(B) has been continuously insured consistent with the applicable State law and registered to the same owner for a period of not less than 1 year immediately prior to such trade-in;

(C) was manufactured less than 25 years before the date of the trade-in; and

(D) in the case of an automobile, has a combined fuel economy value of 18 miles per gallon or less;

“The Rule”

The following excerpts are from page 30 and 31 of the Rule

(iii) Registration
The requirement that the trade-in vehicle be registered to the same owner for a continuous period of one year prior to the transaction requires clarification. …..

The Rule continues with the following on page 31...

To qualify under this requirement, the purchaser will need to provide proof of registration covering the trade-in vehicle for a period of at least one year prior to the date of the trade-in. …..

To implement this process, the agency has determined that proof of registration may be demonstrated by any of the following: a current State registration document or series of registration documents in the name of the purchaser evidencing registration for a period of not less than one year immediately prior to the trade-in; a current State registration document showing registration in the name of the purchaser and a document
of title that confers title on the purchaser not less than one year immediately prior to the trade-in; or a current State registration document showing registration in the name of the purchaser and a document from a commercially available vehicle history provider evidencing registration for a period of not less than one year immediately prior to the trade-in. Changes in ownership during this period to delete a co-owner due to death or divorce do not interrupt the continuity of the registration, so long as the purchaser has been shown as an owner on the registration for the entire period. In addition, for each of the three options, the consumer must certify that the trade-in vehicle was continuously registered for the requisite period.

The Law in (7) (B) says the vehicle must be continuously insured, but only simply states that the vehicle be registered to the same owner for at least on year. The last sentence of the rule from page 31 of the Rule is what is being used to reject applications for a lapse in registration. This last sentence is not a requirement of the Law and I believe goes against the intent of the Law that a person would own the trade-in vehicle for at least one year. I do not feel Congress had intended to disqualify a CARS trade simply because the owner was a few days late in renewing the vehicle license.

The registration/owner requirement is stated differently elsewhere in the Rule in the Summary of Sale/Lease & Certifications Form, which is completed and signed by the dealer and purchaser. Actually, I believe this wording more closely follows the intent of Congress.

Dealer certification

• I have verified that the Purchaser has been the registered owner of the trade-in vehicle continuously for a period of not less than one (1) year prior to the date of this transaction.

Purchaser certification

• I have been the registered owner of the trade-in vehicle continuously for a period of not less than one (1) year prior to the date of this transaction.

The NHTSA interpretation of the Law is causing a significant number of rejected applications and subsequent financial hardship on both owners and dealers. Before the Rule was amended on July 31, a dealer had to disable the engine of the cars prior to submitting the application. Unless the dealer or the owner had studied the full 136 page final Rule they would not have known of the different interpretation of the Law than found in the Summary of Sale/Lease & Certifications Form.

We must contact our senators and representatives to encourage the NHTSA to amend their interpretation of the CARS law.

dwreills

Just thought I'd make clear I'm talking about Detroit, not Albany, Miami, St louis or Seattle. I agree used car prices are up but that happened a year ago when the Mortgage meltdown caused people to not buy new last year and the used car supply from the lack of trade ins started drying up. There may be another spike in used value now post C4C and for people in Detroit that means not buying anything. Also this refers more specifically to the City and not the Suburbs which should be be considered separately because of the generally recognised economic desparity between the two.

94gs

For those that this works for you, do you feel the same?

I felt a bit sad when I left mine to the dealer. But I liked my new ride immediately, a much improved, modern car.

"
...
Among those in better shape is a maroon 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic, with matching maroon velour seats. It is the kind of land whale that once dominated the roadways. It is also a reminder that while $4,500 off on a new car is enticing, it also means losing an old friend.

"I cry before I came out here, I cry," said Clorinda Tomasi, who just before her 83rd birthday traded the Caprice for a new Malibu. "I been thinking of this since a few years ago, but I always got cold feet."
"
http://www.cnbc.com/id/32328598

smilinjackross

Not in the least. A car is simply a way of getting from point A to point B. It's not a friend.

It's like when people sell their house and get mad when the new owners knock out a wall or add an extension. Who cares? It's not your house anymore.

humbler

Funny you should ask.

We did our deal with a 95 Infiniti J30 we have owned since 1997. It was a great car but it had 175k miles and had developed a terminal problem a month or so ago. (major oil leak at the cam seal caused by a bent cam. I had to add 3-4 qts of oil weekly to keep it running so it would qualify). We did our home work in early July, shopped around and made our deal for a Sentra to take advantage of the full 4500.00 rebate and the Nissan July incentives. The deal went smoothly once the shopping around was done. We picked up the car on 7/24.

When we left the bldg to go to our new car the old Infiniti was parked next to it. I didn't have problem leaving it behind but our 14 yo daughter went up to it, put her forehead on the driver's side window and started crying, saying she was going to miss the car. It was one of only 3 cars we have owned since she was born.

She got over it quickly after a few minutes riding in the new car.

ateixeira

Now call me a fool, but that only amounts to a credit of $3,461. Hmm...why the difference? The dealer gets reimbursed the full $4,500, correct?

I'm not sure, but don't the dealerships have to pay income tax on the $4500?

If so they can't exactly give you the usual invoice-rebates deal. They'd lose money.

stephen987

Not so. From the dealer's tax perspective there is no difference between getting that $4500 from you and getting it from the government, or from wholesaling your trade-in.

ateixeira

Then it's probably just supply and demand tilting back in their favor.

For years it's been a buyer's market, if you think about it. Very few exceptions.

Now they have 1 Aveo left on the east coast and 100,000 people want it. I bet we start seeing MSRP pricing on c4c deals.

There's not much of a margin on a $10k Versa anyway. What's the difference between invoice and retail? $500 maybe?

Pay full price, take the $4500, and you've still got a $5500 car. In 2009.

You pay Yugo or Hyundai Excel money for a real car.

andre1969

This is false because there are only so many hours in a day. At some point you run out of hours in the day. If you were suddenly given a vehicle that gets 200 mpg instead of 20 mpg would you then begin to drive 20 hours a day to and from work instead of 2 hours?

In most situations I've seen, often someone will see an increased commute to work, either because they took another job somewhere, or moved further out to get more bang for their housing buck, or any other number of reasons. And then, because of that greatly increased commute, they decide the old guzzler isn't cutting it anymore, and spring for a more economical car. So yeah, miles driven do go up. However, it's not the more fuel efficient car making the miles go up, but rather the miles going up prompting the more fuel efficient car!

ateixeira

I'd agree with that assessment.

You don't buy a house to match your car, it's the other way around.

hamp_mn_us

I am currently waiting for the government to approve my clunker so I can go pickup my new Jeep. My dealer say's it is now two weeks since they submitted thier first clunker to for approval and so far none have been processed approved.

Does anyone know how we can track how many cars have been approved by the government to date? I have found bits of information that seem to indicate that of the 250,00 cars submited to date on a few thousand have been precessed approved. Does any one know how many cars a day they can precess?

smilinjackross

Accidentally posted this on a different discussion:

Just got word from my dealer that my registration is all set. I traded in a 1999 Chevy Suburban K1500 4WD, which is not on the fueleconomy.gov list (but it should be), and it was approved. I made the deal on 7/25 so it took quite a while but it's done.

patti11

I followed the advice given and went to the DMV early this morning. They indicated that they could not give me a copy of my last registration. It had to come via US Mail. Ten business days after the registration form and $ was mailed, it still has not arrived as of today. I was told by the DMV to contact 1-866 CAR-7891 for further information. Upon calling the #, hodling 47 mins., I was told the gov't will only accept cars registered for at least one year, no if's, and's or but's. It was then suggested that I go to CARFAX and put in the vin # and there I MAY get the registration info. Before doing so, I called the dealer and they said they would only accept a valid registration card issued by the DMV that the gov't is kicking back many applications for the sligest infraction. I was then told I would have to leave my car with the dealer and await confirmation of acceptance...which could be 10 days or better. My registration is valid and the vehicle registered to me for the last 11 years. My reggie was renewed just shy of a year ago and is good until 2010, I just did not keep the old one, so timing put me out of C4C. All in all, the Pathfinder looks great, runs excellent, however, the gas mileage was the clunker. So, I've opted to 'bail out" of this program and buy a car after things calm down and my teen will get the Pathfinder next month when she gets her permit. Best of luck to all you C4C posters...happy and safe driving! Many thanks to those that gave me advice and guidance.

ruffytdog

So last weekend (8/1) I went to 4 different dealerships in my area.

First one was hesitant to honor their internet quote once I mentioned my CFC. We were ready to head out to the next dealer, but then they said they will do it. But then another customer bought at that same time. That was last of that model/trim that they had. Needless to say we headed to the next dealer.

Second dealer. Mentioned on the phone they would price match another dealer. We show up and they say the car is in such high demand, that they won't do it. So fine we'll drive the 20 miles to the next dealer to do the better deal. I don't know if they are saying this because we already mentioned CFC at that time.

Third dealer. It was next door to the second dealer and they had our second choice car. Might as well take a look before heading 20 miles away. Didn't do much research on the second choice car, but they quoted a decent price and we probably would've bargained to an acceptable price. They say they would probably call us back in a few hours when they finish submitting our CFC app and finish the trade. I think they were more willing to take the risk because they didn't seem to busy, and the second choice car doesn't seem to be high on anyone's list. So off to the last dealer to work on the first choice car.

4th dealer. They will honor their internet quote which was the best quote I've seen anywhere. And they still honor it with the CFC. The thing is that I have to wait for the application to get approved before we can finish the deal. So I went with these guys. Did all the paperwork and they did not ask for a deposit. Now I'm 5 days in and waiting and trying to be patient. We'll see what happens from this point on...

There is a huge difference in experience from dealer to dealer out there. I think you just have to do a lot of sorting out of dealers in your area to see who will actually honor their internet price w/ the CFC.

Now I know why I don't like buying cars with a deadline. I used to buy a car knowing I can get a better deal elsewhere. It's not like the car I want is a rare one off model. Otherwise I always have the old one to drive around.

cruisin66

good story ruffytdog on your experience for c4c. it really shows that you have to do your research, have options, and stand firm when the dealers try to change up their stories!

vouchermeplees

This has been a long process and I am still waiting for my wheels.

Showed up to the dealership with all the required documentation and made a deposit on 7/17

They told me it would be tough to deliver my car on 7/25 so I said lets go with 7/27.

Showed up to the dealship on 7/27 and one of the people there (my sales rep was nowhere in site) asked me why I was there because that had not implemented the programe yet because of its complexity. Sales Rep called me 3 hours late and told me the end of the week.

Got a call on 7/29 from the dealership saying that they needed more information (they had not photo-copied everything I had on the first day). Brought it in and they said the end of the week or the beginning of the next week.

I waited until the afternoon of 8/3 and called the dealer. My rep said they were just about to have a meeting about it. He called back about 2 hours later and said I had to come in and sign some more documents. After signing the documents they said another 2-3 days.

The next day 8/4 I got a call asking for more information. Naturally I gave it to them and here we are today.

It 8/7, no car, no call and I am stuck.

You can't complaine because they got you over a barrel. There is no inventory left in the area and all the prices are $100s more than three weeks ago.

What a program..

What a dealer..

The

mit4car

my dealers sent the paperwork in July 30, 2009, still got no response from the Gov. yet. Dealer tells me that it is still being "review".

anyone has an idea how long does this approval process takes?

hamp_mn_us

My deal was sent in July 29th it is still in "review" as well. The dealer said that his first submitions were started on July 26th and those have not been approved yet either.

gagrice

I hope you have learned a lesson about keeping a file on each car you own. Be sure and include all maintenance and repair invoices. My sister found out that it pays when her Hyundai engine blew up with 60,000 miles on it. They tried to get out of fixing it until she brought in receipts for all service work required in the manual. Even though they had done all the service at that dealership. They knew she had it all serviced by them. They were hoping she had tossed her paperwork. Buyer beware with all auto dealers.

oscar23

I would try a different dealer and let him know that. Bad salesman are now trying to use the clunker bill as their incentive which is against the law. Negotiate the price first and then tell them you have a clunker. If they ask you if you have a clunker to trade than dance around the question. After this bill is over their sales are going to drop like a led balloon. Refuse yo be taken advantage of. Talk to his manager and let him know of the bad sales practice. That is just wrong- Don't but there

mitchflorida

it's been posted here that you only need the most current registratrion form and the Pink Slip showing ownership of the vehicle. You are required by law to keep the current registration in your car at all times.

If you have those two things, go to another dealer before Labor Day as that is when the program will run out of money.

smilinjackross

Hopefully it will go through soon. My deal was completed today (after I signed everything on 7/25) and the dealer told me they registered around 100 cars today so maybe things are starting to move.

Good luck. I hope everything works out for you.

gagrice

go to another dealer before Labor Day as that is when the program will run out of money.

You are kidding right? If there is still any left of the now $3 Billion it will not last out this month. I would guess it is close to running out right now.

crosenstengel

Thats crazy to go to 4 different dealers to get a deal... I am a salesman for the largest dealership in my area, and we are doing the deals and letting the customer drive off in their new car/truck. Everything is running smooth on the C4C program for us. The only headache about this whole program is the documentation that is needed on your clunker..ie... Registration and Insurance...and of course your vehicle must be running. LOL !! I think that this is a great program. People are getting into brand new fuel efficient cars and its boosting sales all over the US.... I never thought I would say this...but... Thank you Gov't. !!

mitchflorida

I am only going by what Obama is saying.

elmerfudd1

"I am currently waiting for the government to approve my clunker so I can go pickup my new Jeep. My dealer say's it is now two weeks since they submitted thier first clunker to for approval and so far none have been processed approved. "

Don't know about the larger picture, but I did a trade the weekend before the system opened. My deal was the second deal entered into the CARS system by the dealership, and all of the paperwork was pristine. The dealership finally received notification on Thursday, August 7th that the deal was approved. So basically it took just over a week and a half for anything to budge.

dodgeman07

You are kidding right? If there is still any left of the now $3 Billion it will not last out this month. I would guess it is close to running out right now.

/////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Are you the one joking? The 1st billion isn't gone yet and is expected to last until 08/10/2009 at a minimum.

The 2nd appropriation of $2 billion is projected to last to Labor Day. To be on the safe side I'd try to get a deal done by 08/29/2009. There is no longer a huge rush.

patti11

With all due respect Gagrice, not keeping an obsolete registration has nothing to do with learning a lesson on keeping records of maintenance and invoices as referred to in your post. I held the outdated registration in my wallet for 11 months and ironically three days prior to deciding to participate in the C4C program, I cleaned out my wallet and disposed of the old registration.