I almost bought a 1986 Mercedes 420 SEL from a co-worker with 210K miles on it for $1,500 some years back. I figured if it puked a transmission or something I wouldn't be out much. However, I know the way I am about cars and I'd have spent money on fixing things other owners of such beaters would ignore such as the power sliding moonroof that was stuck closed or the A/C that blew warm air.
That car would be a good candidate for C4C. No economically viable way of bring it up to a decent standard, and although it pains me to say it, nothing really lost by its retirement....23 years and probably 250K+ miles is a good life, even for an old MB. I too couldn't live with something neglected with that...I would have to fix everything. I'd be like you, even my beater would be spotless, and everything would work.
Anyone know how strict the auditing is going to be?
I think you fulfilled the spirit of the law. That is owning it and insuring it for the last year. I would not worry about an audit. Geithner owed the IRS $145,000 and did not get nailed until he was nominated for a cabinet position. If you are running for office you might be in trouble.
I think most of the nice old MB are protected by being older than 1984. Though I hope none of the later classic models get destroyed. Someone turned in a Jeep Wrangler with only 99K miles. That would be a great candidate for a nice high performance V8 engine. I have not read anything that says they cannot keep the body and stick it on a high performance rock climbing frame. The title does have C4C crap stamped on it, making a straight engine swap difficult.
I started reading through the 186 page document , but after about page 90 I could not take it any more. I did find some references( to more than one person transactions) and other references to the definition of a person I.E. a corporation, partnership, sole proprietor Etc. are considered a person as far as the rule intends, I'll pass it on to the dealer and see what fly s. Thanks For Looking
I don't disagree. However, it's interesting to me that nobody seems to calculate the environmental impact of actually manufacturing all these new cars, vs. keeping the old ones running on the road.
I hear you and I've thought of it in the past. But IMO the new car will be manufactured regardless of CARS as it will be needed to meet demand. The only difference is the timing of the manufacturing process. Buying under CARS may move up the manufacture date, but in the end I see little difference in net enviro impact of making the car now v. in, say, a year when the clunker would go away (post-CARS era).
OTOH, maybe CARS is better for future manufacturing as it's raising the amount of recycled metal available to use, reducing the need to mine more new metals from the earth.
And the manufacturing process doesn't have to be enviro-evil. Check out what the Indiana Subaru plant is doing to reduce the impact of their processes: http://www.subaru.com/company/environmental-policy.html. Read the Clean Plant part.
i have a car eligible for the progarm but car is registar in my wifes name ,title in my name, insured in both names iam in new york iam told i am ineligible because of this. is there any way of getting around this problem iam told if i go to mass. i am eligible please help
Yes, they said it is my responsible to tell them, not they should mention about that to me.
I just told the manager of the dealer after work today. The salesmen seem not knowing about it and I feel they don't want to add more work for them since I already signed the contract and any changes now are adding the work for them.
The manager told me to send him the proof of enrollment in MS degree/ or diploma or letter from school telling my wife is going to graduate this year
We are going to school tomorrow to got the paper work done
Thank you all of you who responded to me. I will keep inform the progress so it may help someone else
Well I've located the exact car my wife wants at about four different dealers. The CRV EX-L w/ NAVI just doesn't move like the lower priced ones. I stated the deal we have in place at two separate dealers. I had one internet manager who brought my deal to her manager, who basically jacked the price $800. We won't be buying from them unless they meet the price.
With all these managers in place, maybe the principals will get a clue and get rid of a few to lower the overhead and net the same profit.
Some of us die-hard MB people look at some 80s and 90s models as modern classics, too :shades:
But, if they are clapped out, they are clapped out. They'd die sooner or later, the nice cherished cars won't be turned in.
I'd imagine some Jeeps can be pretty shot at 100K. Maybe not expensive to fix, but they seem to sometimes attract abusive ownership.
I wonder what kind of provisions there are to let one buy directly from the dealer, and have it be above board. Maybe it would pay to know a junkyard operator.
I've heard reports that the C4C program is also driving up used car sales (and values) too. Theory is that many are coming into dealerships to purchase a new car THINKING their old clunker qualifies, only to find out different. Seems to me a saavy car dealer could easily steer such a person over to a used car (where profits are higher anyway). Any salespeople care to comment???
I sent an email to fueleconomy@ornl.gov about my clunker and here was the response:
Dear Mr. xxx,
We have notified the EPA about this vehicle and are awaiting a response. We expect that they will either be able to provide us with a record for this vehicle or that they will discover that it had a curb weight in excess of 6,000 pounds and was therefore rated as a heavy duty vehicle and not tested for fuel economy even though it may have a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 8,500 lbs or less. If EPA supplies us with a record, we will get it posted as soon as we receive it. If it was classified as heavy duty, it is likely that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will regard it as a Category 3 truck but to our knowledge they have not yet made that determination. We hope this will be resolved this week.
Most car dealerships in big cities will basically tell you anything (fib) in order get you into the showroom. Then, mysteriously, the car has been sold or the price offered has been canceled. It is the oldest trick in the book, and most car dealers (or customers, for that matter) aren't the most ethical people in the world.
It all boils down to supply and demand. The deal that that the Sales Manager might have accepted a few days ago will now be cast aside when there is a shortage of inventory and the next customer who comes through the door is a little more anxious and will pay $500 more than you will.
By the way, when a salesman says he "has" the exact car that you are looking for, it only means that he has located it on the car maker's computer system, most likely 200 miles from where you are.
I've been in great positions that last 4-5 autos I've purchased/leased. But to your point, the competition is high as the clunker program is fueling sales for the short term. My hope is they continue funding this and it carries into the 2010 models.
Yes there are certain documentary requirements that are your responsibility to provide. They can't do anything without those documents, your diploma and your pay stubs or letter from your future employer.
If you have a signed buyer's order, that's a binding contract--isn't it?
It may be different form state to state but here in TN the deal is only done when you take delivery. If all the paper work is signed but you have not taken delivery and drove the car off the lot then the contract is not binding. After delivery the only way it is not is if you signed a subject to agreement meaning there are still lose ends.
Yes that is true, maybe not steered to used cars but still try to make the sale, and a used car is the best way to turn a "Clunker Wanna Be" into a sale. It is easier to get the car well below the bottom line a new one would have been with clunker money in most cases.
It is amazing though right now how cheap you can get a Focus. Did a bunch of deals on $17900 Focus's. Sold them in the $16900 area, less $4500 clunker cash, less $2000 rebate + 0% for 36 months. You can get a brand new car for $11700 OTD at $325 a month for only 36 months. What a country, Only in America!!!!!!
If you cannot qualify for a new car loan, chances are good you will not be able to get a decent used car either. Or you get stuck with a 20%+ shyster loan. Buying used from a dealer is a Real big risk. First you are going to pay more than the car is worth. The warranty will be all but non existent. Joining a credit union and lining up credit before you shop for a car new or used is the key. Getting an interest free loan from relatives is another good option our extended family seems to like. Other wise you are at the dealers mercy.
I do believe that C4C will raise the used car prices. At least on the bottom end of the market. It depends on how many good used SUVs & PU trucks get crushed.
I did a Clunkers deal for a sonata before july 24, since hyundai started earlier. Now the dealer is calling saying there is more paperwork to fill out and I have to come in or my title will be revoked. Dont have a problem with more paperwork but going into the dealer is a real hassle, I don't live close. I asked to have them sent by mail and they insist that it must be done in person. It doesn't seem logical in todays day and age when you can close a mortgage by mail. I tried calling CARS but I waited for a long time and is still busy. Anyone know?
C4C deal done on 7/27 and still waiting to get the $3,500 from government.
The government keeps encouraging people to go shopping for new cars using the C4C, but they are not paying as promised. It's getting very frustrated for many C4C buyers! :lemon:
Fact is people are not that stupid... yes people come in thinking they qualify but fact is if they don't...
To me that would mean they are stupid...or let's say "unprepared" and then they are making, what I assume is a significant purchase, on impulse. I just can not see going in with one intention and then switching to something completely different, without setting the decision aside for a while to consider my options. For one thing, to me, buying a used car would necessitate a lot more shopping around before making a choice as every used car is different.
C4C deal for G5 Coupe with 4 sp auto and ABS is under $10k otd for me. Add 2 doors, stab control, and a roomy backseat to that 2.4 liter w/auto and the otd price jumps up by over $7k as a Malibu. Ford dealers by me don't have any Fusion S models that get 27 mpg combined and my $3500 GM card earnings can't be applied at Ford. Actually, I can't find any incentives at all from Ford on a Fusion. Do they exist? One Ford dealer keeps sending me game pieces where I'm guaranteed to win at least three $1 gold coins if I come in and talk. F vs GM boils down to 3 vs 3500 at this point.
Yrs ago when I wanted a truck, the ext cab was $3700 extra on an S-10 and about $5500 more on a Silverado. Now it's $7k for 6 inches of foot room in a car.
a signed buyers order is not a contract and is not binding. if you decide not to take delivery, you'll get your entire deposit back - unless there is fraud or theft involved.
According to the dealer, our C4C application was submitted on July 30 and till this day, it's still waiting to be reviewed. Is this typical? No approval, no car for us. I'm sure CARS gets overwhelmed with all the C4C's, but still their poor efficiency is a bit frustrating.
Same here submitted on 7/24/09.. Still waiting for our car. Waiting for review is the message our dealer is getting.. This is totally BS.. sorry for the english. Hope they get their act together soon. Good Luck to everyone.
I have visited several dealers, they all said that with cash for clunkers, they can only do MSRP and not honer TMV. In this case, I will pay about $2000 more than TMV which will off-set my clunker value from $3500 to about $1500. Does everyone have the same experience or something different? It seems this program will benefit the dealers more since they are selling at a better price. This really against the reason for this program. Thanks.
This C4C program is supposed to be buyer-friendly (dealers do all the work). Now, it's starting to become buyer unfriendly.
1. Dealers increase the car price; buyers get a so so deal for their C4C deal now (I know that because my dealer increased the price for the same car I got by more than $900 now (in two weeks, the car price increases by more than 5%), and this is a very good dealer).
2. Buyers won't get the car for a unknown period of time.
It depends on how much inventory each dealer has. If he is very low on inventory, he isn't going to lower his prices for anyone. You just have to call around. I can't imagine anyone buying a Honda or Hyundai or Toyota at MSRP, unless maybe a Prius. Ford dealers are delighted to get invoice, as a rule.
So, I submitted my clunker deal to the dealer on August 3rd. Of course, its still pending. The dealer made me sign something which basically prohibits me from taking delivery UNTIL the clunker deal is approved (or else be liable for $4500). My concern is this...
My car's registration expires on Aug 19th. If the deal is not approved by then, will it be rejected b/c it is not "continuously registered"? Does that mean I need to go get an inspection and reregister my car simply to ensure approval so the car can be junked?! What if I don't reregister it and for some reason my clunker deal is denied!
I called the hotline and they said someone would call me back...yeah right...
If anyone has any useful information on this, please reply!! I wish they would just approve or deny the claim right NOW so I know how to proceed...
Calling all clunker experts!Would either of the two conditions result in disapproval of a clunker claim?
1) The address on the registration(old address) does not match the insurance address (current address). 2) The car has been continually registered and insured for the past year, but the inspection is expired.
High demand is what drives the prices up. The ultimate cause is this program is just too lucrative for those with real crapmobiles and there is uncertainty over how long it will be available. This has created a mad rush to get something for the truly craptastic klunkers. Can not blame the dealers for asking MSRP, when they figure that there is probably a guy with a $500 pile of junk that'll be happy to take that deal.
I kind of expected this and it is one reason why I did not think this deal would be so great for those (like myself) whose clunkers are in decent condition (worth maybe $2000 and up in a private sale).
I do, they don't want to wait for the time lapse of the mail, risk it being lost and starting over again etc, etc. I would want you in the dealership ASAP also to get it finished.
Under the C4C program, the dealers are forbidden to change their pricing just because the buyer plans to use C4C.
I don't know that the law actually says that.
It does say:
"A dealer participating in the program may not charge a person purchasing or leasing a new fuel efficient automobile any additional fees associated with the use of a voucher under the Program."
and it requires "the dealer to use the voucher in addition to any other rebate or discount advertised by the dealer or offered by the manufacturer for the new fuel efficient automobile and prohibit the dealer from using the voucher to offset any such other rebate or discount"
It does not specifically say anything about non-advertised discounts, such as one might have individually negotiated, without disclosing the intention to turn in a clunker.
I have a couple of questions. We are like most people doing the C4C waiting to response from the gov for the approval. Here are my questions:
1. If you have signed the papers for the new car, what are the dealers rights for that car? Are they able to keep it on the lot for test drives/demos? 2. Is there a way for the buyer to get an update on the processing of the C4C? 3. What happens if something happens to the clunker while we are waiting for processing? (it breaks and is no longer driveable?)
Simply don't tell the dealer that you are going to do a C4C deal until AFTER the quotes are done
....and people say that dealers are the only ones unhonest.....lol
Don't worry, the first words out of my mouth after the introduction is "are you here to trade in your clunker and take advantage of the governments CARS program?"
In all honesty, with all the extra work needed and dwindling inventory, the "deals" on my new cars are getting smaller and smaller. Supply v Demand and I refuse to do more work for the same money. When my wife makes me sleep on the sofa because I had to stay until midnight to submit these CARS deals without getting booted from the system, I should at least get paid for it.
For all the crap deals I was forced to take by every customer saying "the economy is bad, I will buy this car $2000 under invoice or no deal" over the winter, I must say it does feel good to finally make a profit.
No malicious intent is in this message, or directed towards anyone in particular. Just giving you a dealers perspective.
When my wife makes me sleep on the sofa because I had to stay until midnight to submit these CARS deals without getting booted from the system, I should at least get paid for it.
Your wife makes you sleep on the sofa because you're working hard? You should make her sleep in the backyard.
As someone stated in another forum...this 10 day reimbursement period is amazingly short.
Have you ever sent in a rebate request to a company for $10 or $50? It can take 8 to 12 weeks before the money comes in the mail. Another poster in the IT field noted that he doubted that he could get a data transmission and verification system for 10,000 input'ers up and running and debugged for any entity in 30 days or less. Our payments seem slightly slow but we've been paid on 78 out of 150 submitted with another 50 to be submitted. A Huge number come due by the end of the week.
1. You may have signed the papers that indicate the intent of you and the dealer to complete the deal but in fact the title and the ownership of the vehicle still belong to the dealer. He can do whatever he wants with it legally.
2. I think that you'll just have to keep in close contact with the sales person and the store.
3. This is serious. You will have to fix it. If a meteor falls on it or it's totalled while driving it then you're going to lose the governmental rebate.
Comments
I think you fulfilled the spirit of the law. That is owning it and insuring it for the last year. I would not worry about an audit. Geithner owed the IRS $145,000 and did not get nailed until he was nominated for a cabinet position. If you are running for office you might be in trouble.
I hear you and I've thought of it in the past. But IMO the new car will be manufactured regardless of CARS as it will be needed to meet demand. The only difference is the timing of the manufacturing process. Buying under CARS may move up the manufacture date, but in the end I see little difference in net enviro impact of making the car now v. in, say, a year when the clunker would go away (post-CARS era).
OTOH, maybe CARS is better for future manufacturing as it's raising the amount of recycled metal available to use, reducing the need to mine more new metals from the earth.
And the manufacturing process doesn't have to be enviro-evil. Check out what the Indiana Subaru plant is doing to reduce the impact of their processes: http://www.subaru.com/company/environmental-policy.html. Read the Clean Plant part.
I just told the manager of the dealer after work today. The salesmen seem not knowing about it and I feel they don't want to add more work for them since I already signed the contract and any changes now are adding the work for them.
The manager told me to send him the proof of enrollment in MS degree/ or diploma or letter from school telling my wife is going to graduate this year
We are going to school tomorrow to got the paper work done
Thank you all of you who responded to me. I will keep inform the progress so it may help someone else
Well I've located the exact car my wife wants at about four different dealers. The CRV EX-L w/ NAVI just doesn't move like the lower priced ones. I stated the deal we have in place at two separate dealers. I had one internet manager who brought my deal to her manager, who basically jacked the price $800. We won't be buying from them unless they meet the price.
With all these managers in place, maybe the principals will get a clue and get rid of a few to lower the overhead and net the same profit.
But, if they are clapped out, they are clapped out. They'd die sooner or later, the nice cherished cars won't be turned in.
I'd imagine some Jeeps can be pretty shot at 100K. Maybe not expensive to fix, but they seem to sometimes attract abusive ownership.
I wonder what kind of provisions there are to let one buy directly from the dealer, and have it be above board. Maybe it would pay to know a junkyard operator.
Dear Mr. xxx,
We have notified the EPA about this vehicle and are awaiting a response. We expect that they will either be able to provide us with a record for this vehicle or that they will discover that it had a curb weight in excess of 6,000 pounds and was therefore rated as a heavy duty vehicle and not tested for fuel economy even though it may have a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 8,500 lbs or less. If EPA supplies us with a record, we will get it posted as soon as we receive it. If it was classified as heavy duty, it is likely that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will regard it as a Category 3 truck but to our knowledge they have not yet made that determination. We hope this will be resolved this week.
Sincerely,
www.fueleconomy.gov
I hope this is helpful!
It all boils down to supply and demand. The deal that that the Sales Manager might have accepted a few days ago will now be cast aside when there is a shortage of inventory and the next customer who comes through the door is a little more anxious and will pay $500 more than you will.
By the way, when a salesman says he "has" the exact car that you are looking for, it only means that he has located it on the car maker's computer system, most likely 200 miles from where you are.
I've been in great positions that last 4-5 autos I've purchased/leased. But to your point, the competition is high as the clunker program is fueling sales for the short term. My hope is they continue funding this and it carries into the 2010 models.
Ahhhhh wishful thinking.
It may be different form state to state but here in TN the deal is only done when you take delivery. If all the paper work is signed but you have not taken delivery and drove the car off the lot then the contract is not binding. After delivery the only way it is not is if you signed a subject to agreement meaning there are still lose ends.
It is amazing though right now how cheap you can get a Focus. Did a bunch of deals on $17900 Focus's. Sold them in the $16900 area, less $4500 clunker cash, less $2000 rebate + 0% for 36 months. You can get a brand new car for $11700 OTD at $325 a month for only 36 months. What a country, Only in America!!!!!!
I do believe that C4C will raise the used car prices. At least on the bottom end of the market. It depends on how many good used SUVs & PU trucks get crushed.
The government keeps encouraging people to go shopping for new cars using the C4C, but they are not paying as promised. It's getting very frustrated for many C4C buyers! :lemon:
To me that would mean they are stupid...or let's say "unprepared" and then they are making, what I assume is a significant purchase, on impulse. I just can not see going in with one intention and then switching to something completely different, without setting the decision aside for a while to consider my options. For one thing, to me, buying a used car would necessitate a lot more shopping around before making a choice as every used car is different.
Yrs ago when I wanted a truck, the ext cab was $3700 extra on an S-10 and about $5500 more on a Silverado. Now it's $7k for 6 inches of foot room in a car.
if you decide not to take delivery, you'll get your entire deposit back -
unless there is fraud or theft involved.
True, but dealers are smart now: no reimbursement, no car (or no car title).
So the wait is pushed back to the buyers.
1. Dealers increase the car price; buyers get a so so deal for their C4C deal now (I know that because my dealer increased the price for the same car I got by more than $900 now (in two weeks, the car price increases by more than 5%), and this is a very good dealer).
2. Buyers won't get the car for a unknown period of time.
My car's registration expires on Aug 19th. If the deal is not approved by then, will it be rejected b/c it is not "continuously registered"? Does that mean I need to go get an inspection and reregister my car simply to ensure approval so the car can be junked?! What if I don't reregister it and for some reason my clunker deal is denied!
I called the hotline and they said someone would call me back...yeah right...
If anyone has any useful information on this, please reply!! I wish they would just approve or deny the claim right NOW so I know how to proceed...
Thanks, Matt
1) The address on the registration(old address) does not match the insurance address (current address).
2) The car has been continually registered and insured for the past year, but the inspection is expired.
I kind of expected this and it is one reason why I did not think this deal would be so great for those (like myself) whose clunkers are in decent condition (worth maybe $2000 and up in a private sale).
Simply don't tell the dealer that you are going to do a C4C deal until AFTER the quotes are done.
Under the C4C program, the dealers are forbidden to change their pricing just because the buyer plans to use C4C.
Are the quotes binding, nope.
Can a slimy dealer back out of it? Sure.
But you sure have some ammo against the dealer if you want to press the issue.
I don't know that the law actually says that.
It does say:
"A dealer participating in the program may not charge a person purchasing or leasing a new fuel efficient automobile any additional fees associated with the use of a voucher under the Program."
and it requires "the dealer to use the voucher in addition to any other rebate or discount advertised by the dealer or offered by the manufacturer for the new fuel efficient automobile and prohibit the dealer from using the voucher to offset any such other rebate or discount"
It does not specifically say anything about non-advertised discounts, such as one might have individually negotiated, without disclosing the intention to turn in a clunker.
For non-C4C buyers, just wait for the 2010 models in Sept. or Oct. until this "Gold Rush mentality" fades.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/cash_for_clunkers_interest_declines/index.- htm
1. If you have signed the papers for the new car, what are the dealers rights for that car? Are they able to keep it on the lot for test drives/demos?
2. Is there a way for the buyer to get an update on the processing of the C4C?
3. What happens if something happens to the clunker while we are waiting for processing? (it breaks and is no longer driveable?)
....and people say that dealers are the only ones unhonest.....lol
Don't worry, the first words out of my mouth after the introduction is "are you here to trade in your clunker and take advantage of the governments CARS program?"
In all honesty, with all the extra work needed and dwindling inventory, the "deals" on my new cars are getting smaller and smaller. Supply v Demand and I refuse to do more work for the same money. When my wife makes me sleep on the sofa because I had to stay until midnight to submit these CARS deals without getting booted from the system, I should at least get paid for it.
For all the crap deals I was forced to take by every customer saying "the economy is bad, I will buy this car $2000 under invoice or no deal" over the winter, I must say it does feel good to finally make a profit.
No malicious intent is in this message, or directed towards anyone in particular. Just giving you a dealers perspective.
Your wife makes you sleep on the sofa because you're working hard? You should make her sleep in the backyard.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that decision if I were you.
Have you ever sent in a rebate request to a company for $10 or $50? It can take 8 to 12 weeks before the money comes in the mail. Another poster in the IT field noted that he doubted that he could get a data transmission and verification system for 10,000 input'ers up and running and debugged for any entity in 30 days or less. Our payments seem slightly slow but we've been paid on 78 out of 150 submitted with another 50 to be submitted. A Huge number come due by the end of the week.
LOL!!
I'll try that next time. I'll let you know how it goes!
2. I think that you'll just have to keep in close contact with the sales person and the store.
3. This is serious. You will have to fix it. If a meteor falls on it or it's totalled while driving it then you're going to lose the governmental rebate.