The difference is that C4C skews the market and it may appear to some that the dealer is trying to cut into the $3500-$4,500 taxpayer contribution. The perception is that the dealer is already making a sale that he/she probably wouldn't have made at the time and is getting greedy. It has little to do with "ordinary" markets where supply and demand rule without third party intervention.
But the fact of the matter is no matter what conditions created it there is still a supply and demand issue. It is all part of the free commerece world. Its what makes the world go around. When supplies are high and demand is low things are sold at a discount, when it is the opposite they demand a higher price. At the end of the year you throw it all in the bucket and see what you have.
We train our sales people regardless of the times, be it now or 6 months ago when it was slow the only price they are authorized to sell a car for is MSRP. anything less then that comes from the desk. So we ask every person to pay MSRP, 80% don't, but you never know till you ask. Its like when you are young chasing women, you never know what you will get till you ask. I don't know when it became a crime to sell something for the suggested retail. I have had many people over the years tell me they know they could have got more off a car if they wanted to negotiate but there time is worth more to them and they just don't like messing with it.
I consider myself a very, very fair person in the biz and I always lean towards the customer but I will never loose on minutes sleep if I sell a new car for MSRP or a Used car for the sticker price. Carmax does it every day and allot of people here think they hung the moon and ate the cheese and they make a hell of allot more off of a used car sale then we do.
OK, whiterabbitfl, now I see the problem. Brace yourself for some unpleasant news.
Your clunker, your down payment, and your rebate have just about evaporated. A brand new Accent only has a True Market Value of between $12k and $15k, depending on equipment. Drive it off the lot, and it's worth between $9k and $11k.
I am not sure how a dealer could justify charging $19,500 for this car, even by adding on worthless "extras" like a protection package, an extended warranty, and even ADP (additional dealer profit) right into the deal. I have never seen an example of a "haircut" this extreme.
In other words, the dealer took you to the cleaners by drastically inflating the price on the vehicle. As kathyc2 indicated, you have overpaid for this car by anywhere between $4500 and $7500. That's a pretty good reason for the banks not to want to finance this deal. If the dealer cannot get this deal to work, consider yourself lucky.
If it is somewhere with high sales tax, $15K + TTL could total to maybe $17K. But isn't the $15K TMV, after accounting for the rebate? Also, with every possible option the TMV after rebate is $16,900, after the $1500 rebate...so, theoretically and amazingly, with TTL you could potentially get close to that $19,500.
I do agree, though, that they probably should hope that they have to return the Accent, so that they can find a better deal than this on one or a better car for the same price. Spending nearly $20K on one of the chepest cars on the market does not seem like a very wise decision.
Noticed that since C4C started, GM raised the base price for a Cobalt LS by $660. They compensated by removing ABS as a typical option so the final price only went up by $250 for most cars on the lot.
How did you get a dealer to write it up for you. The dealers that I have talked to are not willing to do anything unless they see it on the CARS website. I have an 1999 Suburban 4WD and have been in contact with people from the epa etc for the last 2 1/2 weeks. The following are emails from friday:
I have been trying to get my Suburban on the CARS list and EPA states that the decision is up to you. Can you offer any help or advice on this matter?
Thanks,
Ms BB. Unfortunately, nothing has changed since our August 10 communication to you. As we said, although your vehicle has a GVWR less than 8500 lbs., it is classified as a heavy-duty vehicle (and hence no fuel economy labeling requirement) because of another EPA fuel economy provision concerning curb weight - vehicles with EPA curb weights greater than 6000 lbs are not subject to the fuel economy labeling requirements. According to GM, this was the case with 4WD Suburbans for several years. We continue to ask NHTSA as to how these vehicles should/will be treated - as Category 3 or not covered at all. This decision is out of EPA's control and therefore we must wait for firm direction from NHTSA as to how to proceed.
We will let you know when we hear anything. Please Let me know if you can help me out
I guess I didn't look close enough at your post. There was an update for the Suburban C2500 on the web site (7.4 L) but still nothing new on the GMC 1999 Suburban 1500 (5.7L)
Under normal conditions I would agree BUT....we (the US Taxpayer) have just poured 3 BILLION dollars into car dealerships to help car dealers and the UAW and auto manufacturers out. That doesn't count the other billions poured in to GM and Chrysler.
So...we help you out and then you want to pull more $ out of our pockets by jacking up the price of cars, charging "second sticker" in many cases and making us endure your old school sales tactics?
Gvmt intervention has really helped the taxpayer again it seems.
Regarding your comment on the "dealers deserving full list on a vehicle", I agree that is the dealer's perrogative. The dealer does not have to keep the pricing in-line with the MSRP, after all it is a "Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price".
However, I do believe that the dealer should attempt to stay as close as possible to the MSRP to protect the interest of the consumer.
If the MSRP of a random car was $15,000 and a dealer was selling it for $19,500, that obviously seems to be a little strange. Most cases, the person would not purchase the car from that particular dealer. That is the responsibility of the consumer. However, if some dealers were generating these "false" prices based on the government cash for clunkers program, I would consider this very poor business practice.
Since these things happen, it is definitely up to the consumer to protect themselves by doing their homework on a product beforehand. Get multiple quotes, get carfax reports, research the car you plan to buy...figure out what the cost "should" be. If one dealer is presenting an unfair price, make it easy on yourself by doing this homework, so you can just say, "thank you, but I'll be taking my business elsewhere."
I would have to disagree with your last comment and say that "everyone deserves something". Everyone deserves honesty in business. Unfortunately, the only way to get that is to be just as knowledgeable in the business as the ones that are "playing the game". It's sad when it has come down to where you can't trust anyone anymore.
Purchased new vehicle July 24th, trade-in (97 Chevy Astro van) probably destroyed. Registration paid April 08, originally due Jan 08. Have cancelled check as proof. Vehicle required Smog Certificate, had issues and car finally passed smog 10/01/2008. DMV finally issued tags on 10/30/08, they stated it was an issue on their side with the electronic transmission of test results. (have docs from smog center dated 10/01/2008). We paid cash for the remainder of the balance of the vehicle. Insurance was continuous (never lapsed). Dealer now wants me to come in and discuss, can they require me to pay the 4500? Can dealer resubmit claim on 10/01/2009 (if C4C rebate monies still exist).
We are looking to analyze the various ways dealerships are writing up sales/term sheets on new cars when cash for clunkers are involved. If you are willing to talk with us and potentially allow us to look at your paperwork (personal info blacked out,of course), please email dgreene@edmunds.com.
Under normal conditions I would agree BUT....we (the US Taxpayer) have just poured 3 BILLION dollars into car dealerships to help car dealers and the UAW and auto manufacturers out. That doesn't count the other billions poured in to GM and Chrysler.
So...we help you out and then you want to pull more $ out of our pockets by jacking up the price of cars, charging "second sticker" in many cases and making us endure your old school sales tactics?
Dealers charging a "second sticker" or "ADM" are rare. Very rare. Is anything, dealers are less willing to work off of MSRP, which is allowed and fully honorable. Nobody is "entitled" to a discount. The fact that people have been getting discounts is due to the current market place. Right now, the market place does not call for steep discounts.
I have been against the C4C bill since day one, and I am a dealer. Not only do I disagree with this outrageous government spending, it has created chaos for my clerical staff and added aggravation to me and the owners of my company. I believe we are in the process of ending the C4C program at our dealership until we start getting reimbursed for the $250K of our money we have lent out interest free to our customers. Do you realize how much interest my company has lost because the business account is out $250K? I'm not saying the customer should pay that, I'm just saying what is at stake for my company.
Send all those deals you don't want our way. We will take every one of them with a smile on our face.
This is the best spent stimulus money so far, would you prefer they keep giving it to AIG, Fanny and her good friend Freddy?
A dealership of any size should be able to shoulder a $250K cash flow for 45 days. We do it with Rebate/ wholesale money every month. How many big ticket wholesales do you have you can't cash because you don't have a title yet?
This program is the best thing I have ever seen in 16 years of selling. It has generated big time excitement. It has improved all our business. We delivered 26 this weekend and 4 of them were clunkers, the rest straight retail.
CASH FOR CLUNKERS Toyota overtakes GM as most-popular 'clunkers' purchase Chrissie Thompson Automotive News | August 17, 2009 - 12:49 pm EST
Toyota Motor Corp. has overtaken General Motors Co. as the top manufacturer of new vehicles purchased under the U.S. cash-for-clunkers program.
Toyota made 18.9 percent of all new vehicles whose clunkers deals had been submitted, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said in its second report on the incentive. GM accounted for 17.6 percent as of Friday, down from 18.7 percent on Aug. 5, when the initial tally was released.
The Toyota Corolla remained the top new car purchased. The Honda Civic passed the front-wheel-drive Ford Focus as No. 2. The No. 9 Nissan Versa and No. 10 four-wheel-drive Honda CR-V bumped out the Chevrolet Cobalt and inventory-depleted Dodge Caliber in the top 10.
As of Friday, dealers had submitted 358,851 deals for the clunkers initiative, which gives consumers vouchers of up to $4,500 for trading in gas guzzlers for new vehicles with better fuel economy. Those deals were worth about $1.5 billion in voucher reimbursements, or half the $3 billion in U.S. funds allocated for the incentive.
Here are additional cash-for-clunkers statistics released by the government: Top 5 manufacturers of new vehicles purchased: 1 Toyota 18.9 percent 2 GM 17.6 percent 3 Ford 15.4 percent 4 Honda Motor Co. 12.9 percent 5 Chrysler 9.1 percent
Top 10 new vehicles purchased: 1 Toyota Corolla 2 Honda Civic 3 Ford Focus fwd 4 Toyota Camry 5 Toyota Prius 6 Hyundai Elantra 7 Ford Escape fwd 8 Honda Fit 9 Nissan Versa 10 Honda CR-V 4WD
Top 10 trade-ins: 1 Ford Explorer 4wd 2 Ford F-150 2wd 3 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4wd 4 Jeep Cherokee 4wd 5 Ford Explorer 2wd 6 Dodge Caravan / Grand Caravan 2wd 7 Chevrolet Blazer 4wd 8 Ford F-150 4wd 9 Chevrolet C1500 2wd 10 Ford Windstar fwd
Top 5 states by voucher amounts requested 1 California $152.4 million 2 Texas $91.1 million 3 Michigan $80.6 million 4 New York $77 million 5 Ohio $76.3 million
Vehicles traded in by category Passenger cars 60,365 Category 1 trucks 233,704 Category 2 trucks 58,154 Category 3 trucks 3,506
Fuel efficiency stats Average fuel economy of purchases 25 mpg Average fuel economy of trade-ins 15.8 mpg
The success of the program, which legally began July 1 but had its official kickoff July 24, has drained inventories of some fuel-efficient cars while helping push industry sales rates in July to their highest levels since September.
For instance, the Dodge Caliber had a 17-day supply Aug. 1, down from 90 days’ worth on July 1 and below the 60-day supply analysts recommend. In response, the Chrysler Group this week is adding some overtime production at its Caliber plant in Belvidere, Ill., a UAW official has told Automotive News.
Similarly, automakers such as Toyota, Ford Motor Co. and Mazda Motor Corp. last week announced some production boosts in response to cash-for-clunkers demand.
If your Astro van has been destroyed, then you are in the clear, and it is the dealer's headache. If not, he will give you back your Astro and down payment, and you return the new vehicle. He shouldn't be penalized because you were late with registration and the federal government is being a stickler on it.
This is the best spent stimulus money so far, would you prefer they keep giving it to AIG, Fanny and her good friend Freddy?
I agree with you there. At least the the American public gets a piece of this big spending pie :shades:
This program is the best thing I have ever seen in 16 years of selling. It has generated big time excitement. It has improved all our business. We delivered 26 this weekend and 4 of them were clunkers, the rest straight retail.
I think I would be more excited if I were actually getting paid on these clunker deals. I have not received one penny back yet!
Most of my C4C deals were early on. Now we see them trickle in. Most of my business is straight retail as well.
This will only qualify as a Class 3 vehicle, and therefore I would not be able to purchase a Honda Civic because it's not a truck. I dont need a truck. I'm pissed. I couldnt find anything on the net that had a "curb Weight" of over 6000 lbs. They may have been looking at tow capacity or something. Well anyway thanks for the info. Another "screwup" with Government Programs... intentially on the right track, but one big HIPE.
stephen987, I agree, i was taken to the cleaners although I also lucked out and could not get financed. We just returned the car and got refunded the 1500.00 and no .30 per mile was charged,.. glad for that and glad we learned a valuable lesson very cheaply. They did inflate the price by about 6,500.00,. again you were right. Now if I could just find a way to get financed with a dealer for a new cheaper car,..accent,fit,focus, etc.We would be happy,.. as I said before our clunker fits the 4,500.00 rebate and we are able to put an additional 1500.00 down,.. if that brought the price down to 7-8.5k you think we could get financed, one could only hope. I just really would like to take advantage of the cfc deal while establishing credit at the same time. Not much time to establish credit before the program runs out. If anything I have learned quite a bit in an area that I never would have gone had it not been for the c4c. Made me think about alot of things including building credit again,.. any advice on getting to where I want to go or just take the lessons learned and start to establish? thanks buddy.
Congratulations on your escape from a really bad deal! If I were in your shoes, I would start by consulting with a local bank or credit union--wherever you do your regular banking is best, because they will know your track record. Ask to speak with a loan officer about prequalifying for an auto loan. These people will be honest with you about what you can--and cannot--qualify for. Be sure to tell the loan officer that you will have a clunker and a $1500 cash down payment.
Once you have been through preapproval, you can then begin to use Edmunds and other sites to research vehicles that can be bought within your price range. An inexpensive new car such as an Accent or a Focus should be within range unless you have a lot of other expenses, or unless your income is too unstable. Be sure to use Edmunds' TMV calculator to figure out what the "fair" price for the car is, with the equipment you want, before you commit to buy anything.
You're right that the c4c money may not last long, but please do not allow this to rush you into a deal that could damage your finances for years to come. There are a lot of folks here on the Edmunds forums who are happy to help you work through the process.
What the majority I have seen have been doing is negotiating a flat fee from the scrap company. We are getting $$200 for trucks and $150 for cars. Its quick, easy and does not add to an already tedious process. We keep $50 and give the rest to the consumer.
I guess so, as we like to tell our sales people, activity generates excitement, excitement generates sales. The only area we are hurting in is Used car sales, we are having a crappy used month.
Stephen987 Auto dealers have profited from the multibillion dollar bailouts and we (the taxpayer) have given the car companies/auto dealers 3 billion dollars more and then they have jacked up the prices of the cars to "thank" the tax payer!
Quick some one stop the madness. You mean to tell me that the Goverment set up a program that gave people up to $4500 for there $800 car and the program was so popular that it caused supply and demand problems and the dealers were profiting $$600 or $700 more on a car then normal so the clunker customer only netted $3000 more then there car was worth plus the taxes? So in turn it benefited the consumer AND the business owner? HOLLY CRAP!!!! A goverment stimulus program that is working, hurry stop it!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH THE INSANITY OF IT ALL!!!!!!! Hurry give the money back to big business, there CEO's need a new yacht!!!!!!!!!!
Cry me a river please. Sorry your car didn't qualify.
Ok, so can everyone with a '98,'99 Suburban 1500 4WD get together and cause enough noise to get this resolved, anyone at edmunds any help? I went and looked at my potential purchase today, checked the dealers computer and still it's not on the list. Why is this taking so long, how hard is it to go through the qualifications and realize it's eligible?
Is the scrap value supposed to refund to the customers or the dealers can keep it. I know many of us don't get a cent from the clunker scrap. I asked the dealer when I gave them the clunker car they said they only get 50 bucks from the junk company and that is it.
yup8, no doubt prices have been jacked,...especially since the new 2 billion,...I personaly have been to the dealer just Monday night and saw a 2009 3 door hyundai accent msrp @ 17.1.....on the floor mind you,.. none the less they were very interested in my window sticker I saved from a week ago,... took it from my possesion immediately,...crooks cutting there own throats as I see it. whats the deal? jack it 4500 and here you go? who's pocketing the govs money? i'm not benefitting anymore! best deals for the salesman,..making a deal with the finance guy, and,.. or more!!
I like the edmonds request on seeing the deals inked,... I'll put it together for all to see including the dealers ? name,..can't wait to hear the input!
Hi Joel, Just pointing out the greed. Auto dealers are rewarding the public for our generosity the same way the banks rewarded the public after we bailed them out...higher fees, more service charges, etc. .....and cfc is hurting other small businesses such as mechanics, and some used car dealers ad of course non-profits. Find all the fun you can now screwing your "customers" and the public. It will surely come back to you one day.
I told everyone here that new car prices would go up, even people with a qualifying clunker would see no benefit, under CFC.
You could have gotten a better deal without a clunker of this legislation months ago.
Dealerships are the ultimate scumbags.
No worries, though - when new car sales absolutely plunge again, and they will - take that to the bank and slam the vault shut - the new car deals will be bigger and better than ever.
Anyone absolutely not having to buy now would be foolish not to wait. :shades:
1. Work with your own bank for car loan. Or borrow money from your relatives. Don't do your car loan at the dealership - avoid high interest rate, application fee, loan paperwork fee, credit check fee, mandatory comprehensive insurance, etc. 2. Do your homework on the new car. Pin point your first choice and second choice, with the trim line, extra packages/options you need. Know the MSRP, invoice price, and TMV. Know how much DMV fees are. 3. Negotiate. Don't give in to the unreasonable price. 4. Do the math yourself for final out-of-door payment to avoid hidden "add-on" fees.
"...they have jacked up the prices of the cars to "thank" the tax payer!..."
Why on earth would you do business with a place that did that? I don't get the zombie-like behavior of some people doing a C4C deal. It's as if they have no common sense because the $4500 has blinded them.
If I researched a car and found out it had an MSRP of $20K and when I went to the dealer and the price was now $23K I would walk.
A friend of mine went to a Honda store and wanted an Accord in a certain color. The sales manager came out and stated "We're giving you $4500 so you have to take the color we give you". He walked out, went to another dealer and got just what he wanted...for much less than MSRP.
C4C shouldn't change anything. If the price is wrong and their attitude stinks, WALK. Just like regular times.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I'm not sure people are complaining about an extra few hundred bucks ( OK Jipster would but he's a special case). It sounds like some dealers are looking for a grand slam home run.
If a car sells for $12K before the program it shouldn't be selling for $19K during the program. Something is wrong there. There's a point where taking advantage of a customer's lack of knowledge becomes a con game rather than a business transaction. I'm also hearing that people don't like the attitude at some stores. The "take it or leave it" mind set is very short sighted. People remember how they were treated long after they have forgotten the price.
In defense of dealers I can tell you that my current Chrysler dealer has not bumped prices. The only ADM's I've seen were there a month before the program started.
Now his USED cars are something else.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
It should be mentioned that many of the big rebates that the manufacturers were giving to the consumer were scaled back sharply starting early this month. Those that got in before the end of July got the best deals. The Johnny-come- latelies are fighting over the scraps.
The early bird will always get the worm, in this case a Hyundai Accent.
"dealers charging a "second sticker" or ADM are rare"... I don't know what state your dealership is in???...but I suggest you go to Florida and NJ...They sure aren't rare in those two states. I haven't been to a dealer yet that DOES NOT have an ADM!!!!
The only area we are hurting in is Used car sales, we are having a crappy used month.
Oh God. Tell me about it. I'm in the same boat as you.
What I have noticed is that many C4C buyers are really used car buyers. Reason being is the only way they could manage paying fora new car is the over inflated value the government is giving them for their clunker.
"What I have noticed is that many C4C buyers are really used car buyers. Reason being is the only way they could manage paying fora new car is the over inflated value the government is giving them for their clunker."
I am a used car buyer by choice, but not because it's the only way I can manage to get a new car. I prefer to buy 2-3 year old low mileage used vehicles and then drive them till the wheels fall off. The C4C program happened to coincide with the imminent death of our 95 Infiniti so I did my homework throughout July. I figured out that we wanted a 28MPG or higher vehicle. I narrowed it down to the Nissan Sentra and began discussions with 5 area dealers. I told them I had a clunker. At that time they were not flooded with buyers and were still not sure about how the C4C program worked. I was able to get a price just over invoice, as well as the July Nissan incentives (those disappeared in August). That added up to 6500.00 which, most important to me, offsets the depreciation hit I would normally take on a new car purchase. We closed our deal and took delivery on 7/24 w/ no problems then or now. After reading the stories on this forum and hearing from friends about depleted inventories, time wasted in showrooms, rejected paperwork, dealers sticking to MSRP, I thank my wife for pushing to do this deal right away rather then waiting.
I bet the same guy gladly pays $6 for a large soda at a movie theatre, with a 7000% markup, then expects a car dealer with low supply to give him a 0.5% margin deal on a car.
This is no different than the knee jerk reaction to high gas prices. People scrambling to buy a high mileage car because gas is $4 per gallon. Americans are hopeless with their ignorant way of buying things. Buy low and sell high is good business when you have the opportunity. Those that waited till the cheapo cars were all gone will have to pay the price or wait till the 2010 models start showing up. If the C4C window of opportunity lasts until the car lots are full again, a good deal may be had. Dealers adding profit over MSRP do run the risk of alienating future buyers. I know lots of people unwilling to haggle pay MSRP and are fine with it. It is their money to do with as they see fit. To me half the fun of buying a new vehicle is the shopping and haggling.
PS I see a lot of 1st time posters that are unhappy. If they had come to Edmund's first they may have avoided many of the pitfalls this program has offered.
Comments
But the fact of the matter is no matter what conditions created it there is still a supply and demand issue. It is all part of the free commerece world. Its what makes the world go around. When supplies are high and demand is low things are sold at a discount, when it is the opposite they demand a higher price. At the end of the year you throw it all in the bucket and see what you have.
We train our sales people regardless of the times, be it now or 6 months ago when it was slow the only price they are authorized to sell a car for is MSRP. anything less then that comes from the desk. So we ask every person to pay MSRP, 80% don't, but you never know till you ask. Its like when you are young chasing women, you never know what you will get till you ask. I don't know when it became a crime to sell something for the suggested retail. I have had many people over the years tell me they know they could have got more off a car if they wanted to negotiate but there time is worth more to them and they just don't like messing with it.
I consider myself a very, very fair person in the biz and I always lean towards the customer but I will never loose on minutes sleep if I sell a new car for MSRP or a Used car for the sticker price. Carmax does it every day and allot of people here think they hung the moon and ate the cheese and they make a hell of allot more off of a used car sale then we do.
Your clunker, your down payment, and your rebate have just about evaporated. A brand new Accent only has a True Market Value of between $12k and $15k, depending on equipment. Drive it off the lot, and it's worth between $9k and $11k.
I am not sure how a dealer could justify charging $19,500 for this car, even by adding on worthless "extras" like a protection package, an extended warranty, and even ADP (additional dealer profit) right into the deal. I have never seen an example of a "haircut" this extreme.
In other words, the dealer took you to the cleaners by drastically inflating the price on the vehicle. As kathyc2 indicated, you have overpaid for this car by anywhere between $4500 and $7500. That's a pretty good reason for the banks not to want to finance this deal. If the dealer cannot get this deal to work, consider yourself lucky.
I didn't say anything to the contrary.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
I do agree, though, that they probably should hope that they have to return the Accent, so that they can find a better deal than this on one or a better car for the same price. Spending nearly $20K on one of the chepest cars on the market does not seem like a very wise decision.
I have been trying to get my Suburban on the CARS list and EPA states that the decision is up to you. Can you offer any help or advice on this matter?
Thanks,
Ms BB. Unfortunately, nothing has changed since our August 10 communication to you. As we said, although your vehicle has a GVWR less than 8500 lbs., it is classified as a heavy-duty vehicle (and hence no fuel economy labeling requirement) because of another EPA fuel economy provision concerning curb weight - vehicles with EPA curb weights greater than 6000 lbs are not subject to the fuel economy labeling requirements. According to GM, this was the case with 4WD Suburbans for several years. We continue to ask NHTSA as to how these vehicles should/will be treated - as Category 3 or not covered at all. This decision is out of EPA's control and therefore we must wait for firm direction from NHTSA as to how to proceed.
We will let you know when we hear anything.
Please Let me know if you can help me out
So...we help you out and then you want to pull more $ out of our pockets by jacking up the price of cars, charging "second sticker" in many cases and making us endure your old school sales tactics?
Gvmt intervention has really helped the taxpayer again it seems.
Sure it has--the small business owner.
However, I do believe that the dealer should attempt to stay as close as possible to the MSRP to protect the interest of the consumer.
If the MSRP of a random car was $15,000 and a dealer was selling it for $19,500, that obviously seems to be a little strange. Most cases, the person would not purchase the car from that particular dealer. That is the responsibility of the consumer. However, if some dealers were generating these "false" prices based on the government cash for clunkers program, I would consider this very poor business practice.
Since these things happen, it is definitely up to the consumer to protect themselves by doing their homework on a product beforehand. Get multiple quotes, get carfax reports, research the car you plan to buy...figure out what the cost "should" be. If one dealer is presenting an unfair price, make it easy on yourself by doing this homework, so you can just say, "thank you, but I'll be taking my business elsewhere."
I would have to disagree with your last comment and say that "everyone deserves something". Everyone deserves honesty in business. Unfortunately, the only way to get that is to be just as knowledgeable in the business as the ones that are "playing the game". It's sad when it has come down to where you can't trust anyone anymore.
Registration paid April 08, originally due Jan 08. Have cancelled check as proof. Vehicle required Smog Certificate, had issues and car finally passed smog 10/01/2008. DMV finally issued tags on 10/30/08, they stated it was an issue on their side with the electronic transmission of test results. (have docs from smog center dated 10/01/2008).
We paid cash for the remainder of the balance of the vehicle.
Insurance was continuous (never lapsed).
Dealer now wants me to come in and discuss, can they require me to pay the 4500?
Can dealer resubmit claim on 10/01/2009 (if C4C rebate monies still exist).
So...we help you out and then you want to pull more $ out of our pockets by jacking up the price of cars, charging "second sticker" in many cases and making us endure your old school sales tactics?
Dealers charging a "second sticker" or "ADM" are rare. Very rare. Is anything, dealers are less willing to work off of MSRP, which is allowed and fully honorable. Nobody is "entitled" to a discount. The fact that people have been getting discounts is due to the current market place. Right now, the market place does not call for steep discounts.
I have been against the C4C bill since day one, and I am a dealer. Not only do I disagree with this outrageous government spending, it has created chaos for my clerical staff and added aggravation to me and the owners of my company. I believe we are in the process of ending the C4C program at our dealership until we start getting reimbursed for the $250K of our money we have lent out interest free to our customers. Do you realize how much interest my company has lost because the business account is out $250K? I'm not saying the customer should pay that, I'm just saying what is at stake for my company.
This is the best spent stimulus money so far, would you prefer they keep giving it to AIG, Fanny and her good friend Freddy?
A dealership of any size should be able to shoulder a $250K cash flow for 45 days. We do it with Rebate/ wholesale money every month. How many big ticket wholesales do you have you can't cash because you don't have a title yet?
This program is the best thing I have ever seen in 16 years of selling. It has generated big time excitement. It has improved all our business. We delivered 26 this weekend and 4 of them were clunkers, the rest straight retail.
Toyota overtakes GM as most-popular 'clunkers' purchase
Chrissie Thompson
Automotive News | August 17, 2009 - 12:49 pm EST
Toyota Motor Corp. has overtaken General Motors Co. as the top manufacturer of new vehicles purchased under the U.S. cash-for-clunkers program.
Toyota made 18.9 percent of all new vehicles whose clunkers deals had been submitted, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said in its second report on the incentive. GM accounted for 17.6 percent as of Friday, down from 18.7 percent on Aug. 5, when the initial tally was released.
The Toyota Corolla remained the top new car purchased. The Honda Civic passed the front-wheel-drive Ford Focus as No. 2. The No. 9 Nissan Versa and No. 10 four-wheel-drive Honda CR-V bumped out the Chevrolet Cobalt and inventory-depleted Dodge Caliber in the top 10.
As of Friday, dealers had submitted 358,851 deals for the clunkers initiative, which gives consumers vouchers of up to $4,500 for trading in gas guzzlers for new vehicles with better fuel economy. Those deals were worth about $1.5 billion in voucher reimbursements, or half the $3 billion in U.S. funds allocated for the incentive.
Here are additional cash-for-clunkers statistics released by the government:
Top 5 manufacturers of new vehicles purchased:
1 Toyota 18.9 percent
2 GM 17.6 percent
3 Ford 15.4 percent
4 Honda Motor Co. 12.9 percent
5 Chrysler 9.1 percent
Top 10 new vehicles purchased:
1 Toyota Corolla
2 Honda Civic
3 Ford Focus fwd
4 Toyota Camry
5 Toyota Prius
6 Hyundai Elantra
7 Ford Escape fwd
8 Honda Fit
9 Nissan Versa
10 Honda CR-V 4WD
Top 10 trade-ins:
1 Ford Explorer 4wd
2 Ford F-150 2wd
3 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4wd
4 Jeep Cherokee 4wd
5 Ford Explorer 2wd
6 Dodge Caravan / Grand Caravan 2wd
7 Chevrolet Blazer 4wd
8 Ford F-150 4wd
9 Chevrolet C1500 2wd
10 Ford Windstar fwd
Top 5 states by voucher amounts requested
1 California $152.4 million
2 Texas $91.1 million
3 Michigan $80.6 million
4 New York $77 million
5 Ohio $76.3 million
Vehicles purchased by category:
Passenger cars 208,378
Category 1 trucks 124,187
Category 2 trucks 22,157
Category 3 trucks 883
Vehicles traded in by category
Passenger cars 60,365
Category 1 trucks 233,704
Category 2 trucks 58,154
Category 3 trucks 3,506
Fuel efficiency stats
Average fuel economy of purchases 25 mpg
Average fuel economy of trade-ins 15.8 mpg
The success of the program, which legally began July 1 but had its official kickoff July 24, has drained inventories of some fuel-efficient cars while helping push industry sales rates in July to their highest levels since September.
For instance, the Dodge Caliber had a 17-day supply Aug. 1, down from 90 days’ worth on July 1 and below the 60-day supply analysts recommend. In response, the Chrysler Group this week is adding some overtime production at its Caliber plant in Belvidere, Ill., a UAW official has told Automotive News.
Similarly, automakers such as Toyota, Ford Motor Co. and Mazda Motor Corp. last week announced some production boosts in response to cash-for-clunkers demand.
I agree with you there. At least the the American public gets a piece of this big spending pie :shades:
This program is the best thing I have ever seen in 16 years of selling. It has generated big time excitement. It has improved all our business. We delivered 26 this weekend and 4 of them were clunkers, the rest straight retail.
I think I would be more excited if I were actually getting paid on these clunker deals. I have not received one penny back yet!
Most of my C4C deals were early on. Now we see them trickle in. Most of my business is straight retail as well.
I agree, i was taken to the cleaners although I also lucked out and could not get financed. We just returned the car and got refunded the 1500.00 and no .30 per mile was charged,.. glad for that and glad we learned a valuable lesson very cheaply. They did inflate the price by about 6,500.00,. again you were right.
Now if I could just find a way to get financed with a dealer for a new cheaper car,..accent,fit,focus, etc.We would be happy,.. as I said before our clunker fits the 4,500.00 rebate and we are able to put an additional 1500.00 down,.. if that brought the price down to 7-8.5k you think we could get financed, one could only hope.
I just really would like to take advantage of the cfc deal while establishing credit at the same time. Not much time to establish credit before the program runs out.
If anything I have learned quite a bit in an area that I never would have gone had it not been for the c4c. Made me think about alot of things including building credit again,.. any advice on getting to where I want to go or just take the lessons learned and start to establish?
thanks buddy.
What amount would a 1994 Crown Vic "scrap" to?
Once you have been through preapproval, you can then begin to use Edmunds and other sites to research vehicles that can be bought within your price range. An inexpensive new car such as an Accent or a Focus should be within range unless you have a lot of other expenses, or unless your income is too unstable. Be sure to use Edmunds' TMV calculator to figure out what the "fair" price for the car is, with the equipment you want, before you commit to buy anything.
You're right that the c4c money may not last long, but please do not allow this to rush you into a deal that could damage your finances for years to come. There are a lot of folks here on the Edmunds forums who are happy to help you work through the process.
Auto dealers have profited from the multibillion dollar bailouts and we (the taxpayer) have given the car companies/auto dealers 3 billion dollars more and then they have jacked up the prices of the cars to "thank" the tax payer!
Mechanics (small business owners) have lost business because of c4c. Non-Profits have seen the donations of cars drop drastically because of cfc and Used car small business owners have suffered because of cfc. See links below. (they are just a small sampling of the articles out there re the unintended consequences of this ill thought out gvmt program.)
http://www.ibtimes.com/blogs/articles/8297/20090807/cash-for-clunkers-mechanics-- aftermarket-already-hurting.htm
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/business/18188951-41/story.csp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2308398/posts
Cry me a river please. Sorry your car didn't qualify.
no doubt prices have been jacked,...especially since the new 2 billion,...I personaly have been to the dealer just Monday night and saw a 2009 3 door hyundai accent msrp @ 17.1.....on the floor mind you,.. none the less they were very interested in my window sticker I saved from a week ago,... took it from my possesion immediately,...crooks cutting there own throats as I see it.
whats the deal?
jack it 4500 and here you go?
who's pocketing the govs money?
i'm not benefitting anymore!
best deals for the salesman,..making a deal with the finance guy, and,.. or more!!
I like the edmonds request on seeing the deals inked,... I'll put it together for all to see including the dealers ? name,..can't wait to hear the input!
Just pointing out the greed. Auto dealers are rewarding the public for our generosity the same way the banks rewarded the public after we bailed them out...higher fees, more service charges, etc. .....and cfc is hurting other small businesses such as mechanics, and some used car dealers ad of course non-profits.
Find all the fun you can now screwing your "customers" and the public. It will surely come back to you one day.
You could have gotten a better deal without a clunker of this legislation months ago.
Dealerships are the ultimate scumbags.
No worries, though - when new car sales absolutely plunge again, and they will - take that to the bank and slam the vault shut - the new car deals will be bigger and better than ever.
Anyone absolutely not having to buy now would be foolish not to wait. :shades:
1. Work with your own bank for car loan. Or borrow money from your relatives. Don't do your car loan at the dealership - avoid high interest rate, application fee, loan paperwork fee, credit check fee, mandatory comprehensive insurance, etc.
2. Do your homework on the new car. Pin point your first choice and second choice, with the trim line, extra packages/options you need. Know the MSRP, invoice price, and TMV. Know how much DMV fees are.
3. Negotiate. Don't give in to the unreasonable price.
4. Do the math yourself for final out-of-door payment to avoid hidden "add-on" fees.
Why on earth would you do business with a place that did that? I don't get the zombie-like behavior of some people doing a C4C deal. It's as if they have no common sense because the $4500 has blinded them.
If I researched a car and found out it had an MSRP of $20K and when I went to the dealer and the price was now $23K I would walk.
A friend of mine went to a Honda store and wanted an Accord in a certain color. The sales manager came out and stated "We're giving you $4500 so you have to take the color we give you". He walked out, went to another dealer and got just what he wanted...for much less than MSRP.
C4C shouldn't change anything. If the price is wrong and their attitude stinks, WALK. Just like regular times.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I'm not sure people are complaining about an extra few hundred bucks ( OK Jipster would but he's a special case). It sounds like some dealers are looking for a grand slam home run.
If a car sells for $12K before the program it shouldn't be selling for $19K during the program. Something is wrong there. There's a point where taking advantage of a customer's lack of knowledge becomes a con game rather than a business transaction. I'm also hearing that people don't like the attitude at some stores. The "take it or leave it" mind set is very short sighted. People remember how they were treated long after they have forgotten the price.
In defense of dealers I can tell you that my current Chrysler dealer has not bumped prices. The only ADM's I've seen were there a month before the program started.
Now his USED cars are something else.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Could you elaborate on that? They physically removed it from your hand? Did you protest, call the cops, punch somebody, what?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
The early bird will always get the worm, in this case a Hyundai Accent.
Oh God. Tell me about it. I'm in the same boat as you.
What I have noticed is that many C4C buyers are really used car buyers. Reason being is the only way they could manage paying fora new car is the over inflated value the government is giving them for their clunker.
I'm in CT. I have heard of one dealer in NJ doing it.
Why is that? Is that because they are low on inventory and aren't willing to take your 100.00 over invoice deal?
I am a used car buyer by choice, but not because it's the only way I can manage to get a new car. I prefer to buy 2-3 year old low mileage used vehicles and then drive them till the wheels fall off. The C4C program happened to coincide with the imminent death of our 95 Infiniti so I did my homework throughout July. I figured out that we wanted a 28MPG or higher vehicle. I narrowed it down to the Nissan Sentra and began discussions with 5 area dealers. I told them I had a clunker. At that time they were not flooded with buyers and were still not sure about how the C4C program worked. I was able to get a price just over invoice, as well as the July Nissan incentives (those disappeared in August). That added up to 6500.00 which, most important to me, offsets the depreciation hit I would normally take on a new car purchase. We closed our deal and took delivery on 7/24 w/ no problems then or now. After reading the stories on this forum and hearing from friends about depleted inventories, time wasted in showrooms, rejected paperwork, dealers sticking to MSRP, I thank my wife for pushing to do this deal right away rather then waiting.
It's a seller's market. First in a long time.
PS
I see a lot of 1st time posters that are unhappy. If they had come to Edmund's first they may have avoided many of the pitfalls this program has offered.
Ah yes, spending thousands because they could not bear to see the gas pump registering $75 instead of $50 when they filled their truck or SUV.
Some will ALWAYS jump in and tell them they paid way too much even if they have to make up numbers that never happened.