Cash for Clunkers - Does it Work for You?

trucker5

I agree

haggle

So I just attempted to negotiate a deal with a CARS qualifying vehicle on a new Civic. Good luck getting any dealer to budge on sticker. I feel they are trying to make their monetary number for 2009 off of this program. With responses like, "We are not sure we are going to get the $4500 rebate!", "Our Dealership is half a million behind in government rebates!".
This on top of their extreme lowball on my other trade in car put me back on my heels and into a very reasonable yet stubborn negotiation. I asked that they eat 50% of their invoice to MSRP markup and I threw in a $1000 cash in good faith that it would be some of their 4500 chance they were taking. No dice. The Sales Manager had nothing to offer. So I asked the obvious question, "Why are you employed today if you are sticking to the Salesman's offer?" You could be home sitting back making money if you are not here to make a simple deal. Needless to say, I requested all of the CARS paperwork, my copies of title, insurance proof and registration back from them. They had 1.5 hours invested in paperwork, I am an easy customer and a loyal honda owner (3rd time to this dealer) and they would not work with anything. So I lost 4500 in "free money" they lost a deal over a mere $750 for a loyal customer who put 200K plus on every honda I have had. But I think the principle of no customer loyalty, the fact that I paid "sticker" for my current civic and they know it....
I am now sitting here losing sleep because of how blatantly arrogant they were on the sticker price... And oh yeah to be told if the 4500 were not there, they would give me 1800 more on my trade pretty much sealed their fate.
Doubt they will call back tomorrow, if they do, the deal is now $1000 off sticker :-). Just for the fun of it. I can take my clunker, scrap it out for 500, take the 750 deal breaker, invest it back into my 200K miler and get another 150K out of it at 41 mpg. no sweat off my back, just wanted in on the fun of CARS....
Did I mention I would rather kiss a rattle snake than deal with Sales Managers? Salesmen are fine, they work for a living. Sales Managers are the irritating ones.
Haggle.

jwilliams2

The fact is it is the dealers that are responsible for the creation of the system, no car can be sold without a dealer agreeing to it. The dealers chose not to have set prices and stick with them and instead decided to go with the "make me an offer" model.

Gross oversimplification. As Tidester said, it takes both. The consumer has to agree first. Buyers started asking for better deals the minute the second dealer opened for business.

Tomorrow any dealer can end it by following the model of Fitzmall and others and just saying "no" to any offers other than their set price.

Yes they could, and probably go out of business shortly thereafter. Many have tried, but consumers are too used to shopping around, and no dealer can set his price low enough that it can't be undercut, even if only by a small amount.

cons123

While its true that there has been a slow down in govt's disbursement of funds these greedy dealers must realize that they will surely be paid, its just because of the sheer volume over a short period of time. Without the CARS program they would be saddled with the high cost of keeping lots of inventory with no end in sight as to how they will move them. These dealers should shut up and not push their weight around threatening to quit selling their inventory for the CARS program. Lets all stop buying for the next couple of months and see what will happen.

Give me your email address so I can give you the dealer's name.

cons123

Let these greedy dealers withdraw from the program. While its true that there has been a slow down in govt's disbursement of funds the dealers must realize that they will surely be paid. Its purely due to processing a sheer huge volume which was not anticipated over a short period of time. Without the CARS program they would be saddled with the high cost of keeping lots of inventory with no end in sight as to how they will sell their cars. These dealers should shut up and not push their weight around threatening to quit CARS program. They came back to life because of the program. Lets all stop buying for the next couple of months and see what will happen to them. Maybe they will stop taking advantage of consumers as always especially those who have clunkers for rebate and use these as an excuse to use MSRP for CARS rebate and will not give their usual discounts.

Please read my experience in my posting early this evening DEALERS DEFINITELY RIPPING OFF CONSUMERS IN THE CARS PRORAM

kevinc5

And why can't you name the dealer???

otoluva

I traded my clunker for a Civic on AUG. 4th, final out the door price was $13500, I planned on putting down $ 4500 and I financed $9000 the same day and signed the loan papers, the dealer wanted my 4500 down payment that day but I told him I will only put down $200 for now and the balance on delivery because he would'nt release the car until he gets the gov. rebate.
As of now the dealer still has my UNREGISTERED NEW CAR, and I happened to get the pink slip today that I never saw coming, so at this time I'm very disturbed and unsure it is a wise decision to carry a second car payment with unclear future ahead.
Can I get out of this deal? Can the loan be stopped?
Thanks for any input.

oldfarmer50

"...This undated booking photo..."

The 60s called, they want their haircut back. :lemon:

oldfarmer50

"...the dealers that are responsible for the creation of the system..."

Not true. The system of haggling over price was a direct extension from the days when the main mode of transportation had feet rather than wheels. Why do you think they call it "horse trading"?

Back then a horse might cost a buyer close to a year's pay. Most buyers would do the same thing they do today, take it out for a test drive, look under the hood (check the teeth) and hook up the plow and check the towing ability.

When satisfied, the buyer would give a low ball offer ("Well Jeb, them withers look like they got some scuffs on 'em") and the salesman would try to to build value ( "Now look Cletus, you know this is our new one horsepower model. I ain't making no money as it is").

Modern car sales are just an outgrowth of that system.

oldfarmer50

"...dealers not giving much of a discount..."

Chrysler still lists $4500 off all their cars PLUS the C4C money. If I wanted to trade my pick-up I could have gotten $5500 more than I did on the wife's PT.

Of course the inventory is very low so your choice is limited.

freezed

I have no problem with dealerships charging MSRP now. The new car business has always been about supply and demand, the price of the vehicle is always what the market will bear.

If I had a clunker worth more than $1500 now, here's what I'd do. Private sale it. Put it in the local paper or on craiglist. With the C4C program taking a lot of the used cars off the market you old vehicle will find a home somewhere. It may take a month or two, but who cares? Inventories are low now, and you'll not likely find the new car you want anyway. In a few months, after this C4C mess is over, dealers will be begging for your business again, inventories will be back up, and you'll be able to negotiate a good deal and not have to worry with the C4C paperwork and the lingering though of (what if the gov't rejects my deal?).

rayjay5_0

I can't understand how the Government can contemplate ending this program, which has been promised and documented to go until Nov 1, 2009 or until the money runs out. As of Tuesday of this week the C4C funds-used report still shows over a billion dollars left. As of recently the Cash 4 Clunkers usage rate has been reported to be decreasing, and I would think there would be at least two or three weeks left for anyone who wanted to use the program to use it. In addition my confidence in the government to "manage" has seriously deteriorated since it cant seem to determine how much actual C4C money has been used, cant seem to process the rebates in the promised times, and cant seem to determine which applications are valid and which ones are not. Also I am not confident that all the applications that have been submitted meet the minimum C4C requirements, but it should be up to the govt to determine the invalid ones and the dealerships should have to pay the piper if they delivered cars to applicants which did not meet the minimum requirements.
I cant see blaming the White House specifically, but who ever is managing this program seems to be "sleeping at the wheel ".

bigappaloosa

I've been reading these posts since C4C started. Most interesting was the reaction from dealers about not getting paid quickly enough. I would think that getting paid late is better than not selling anything. I'm wondering what their reaction is now that the program is expected to end even earlier than anticipated due to complaints from the auto dealers association. Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden egg!. I had planned to participate by trading in my Trooper for a Kia Borrego (the only mid size 4WD, not crossover AWD, that qualified) in a cash deal but the dealers in SW Ohio (including Columbus) were only quoting MSRP minus the Kia $3K rebate. The Borrego is not exactly a big seller so I was a little mystified at their pricing rigidity. After going to five different dealers I said never mind and now I'm throwing approximately $3,5K into repairing and updating the Trooper. It's not my daily driver so I can live with the 18 mpg hwy (15 ave.) v. the 21 mpg hwy (18 ave.) I would have gotten with the Borrego. The silver lining to this is that while doing my preliminary C4C research I found out that there will be a new 4Runner next year. Yippee!

rayjay5_0

I have to agree with you. With all the complaining and the headaches the dealers are creating while still getting huge sales, I am starting to wonder why we would even give them any additional money at this time. If the dealers wanted to make sure they received the promised money, they should have held on to the cars for a couple more weeks until the applications were verified and the money was received. I dont feel sorry for them.

tidester

Can the loan be stopped?

If the bank has not yet paid out the cash then you may be able to cancel the loan given your circumstances.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

myk384

It would be a waste for vehicles being clunked..

What a waste of money

tazman14

I traded in my clunker and now two weeks later the dealer says that it was not eligable for the rebate. Appearently my registration lapsed for two weeks unkown to me. Does anyone have any idea as what to do now?? For I do not have the $4500 they gave me for my clunker and I can not afford the car without the rebate. HELP PLEASE.

tidester

Ask for you clunker back and call off the deal.

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

queenl

Wow, I'm surprised to hear all of this. Here I thought I was getting scammed because the dealer first tried to tell me my car wasn't one of the "accepted" vehicles in the clunkers program. I had been on the website and knew that it was so I held my ground.

I negotiated the price before they knew I had a clunker. I was still eligible for all of the discounts that I would have without the clunker. My biggest gripe was that the dealership refused to give me the scrap value for my vehicle in addition to the regular credit. I say report them to CARS. The CARS website says that the dealers are required to still give you the traditional rebates in addition to the clunker credit.

ateixeira

I wrote:

the expectation that a customer can walk in and pay the dealer's cost

You wrote:

I hope your intent is not to attempt to perpetuate the mythology that the invoice prices, available here and many other places, represent actual dealer cost

Clearly it isn't, that's why I said dealer's cost and not invoice price.

jeffyscott

I'd guess that if you tell the bank you just lost your job, they will not approve the loan.

aviboy97

Of course they have all the right to give discounts or not. Don’t these dealers realize that these CARS recipients were the ones that brought them back to life? Now they want to screw the goose that lays the golden eggs. If this is not greed I don’t know what you can call it.

This is a typical comment commonly made by those who were looking to "rob" car dealers back in the late fall / winter season when dealers were desperate. Those people held dealers at their mercy demanding thousands below invoice or there was no deal. Times are different now. The market is now different. The CARS program is doing what it was intended to do, stimulate new car sales! It has worked!

If you don't want to pay MSRP for a new car, then don't buy it!!!!

Right now, buying a new car is like paying $4.50 for gas last summer and paying high market price for your lobster dinner....gotta love Capitalism!

british_rover

What nuts they are, huh? Not rational like the 9/11 conspiracy people.

BTW, where's your birth certificate Mr. BRITISH rover?

My dog ate it.

No seriously he did. When we moved into our new house about three years ago now we had a lot of paperwork in file folders on the table.I was in the process of transferring them to a file cabinet upstairs and had left a few things on the coffee table. I came downstairs and their he there is shredded paper all over the place. Now my dog is usually a very good dog and never does anything wrong but he loves some crunchy thin cardboard or paperboard which is what the folder was made of.

He didn't care about the paper in the folder he just wanted the folder. The original copy of my birth certificate and some other paperwork was just collateral damage.

About a year and a half ago we took a vacation to Austin, Texas and I got another copy of my birth certificate from the state. They really don't let you have the original, original certificate only a certified copy of the original.

greanpea68

You said the vehicle was not registered yet? Your loan has not been processed yet... cancel the deal and walk away.

GP

british_rover

For every one clunked car that might actually be worth something and maybe could have been useful I will show you 20 that were total trash.

I am not going to shed a tear over the 30 beat up explorers, winstalls and rusted out jeeps we have out back. I even like the jeeps but most of these, one of them actually looks ok, are rusted out no good trash.

haggard

Here's a glitch: We own qualifying klunker, was titled in my wife's name for 9 years. Then, last October, we transferred the title to my name as I had become self-employed and wanted to use the car in my work. We wanted to trade the car and put the new car in my wife's name only, since she has the "documented" employment and had the financing all set.

CARS won't allow this type of trade. Dealer says we will have to have both our names on the title and will have to wait until October, when the vehicle will be registered for a full year in the same name to be eligible.

haggard

Here's a glitch: We own qualifying klunker, was titled in my wife's name for 9 years. Then, last October, we transferred the title to my name as I had become self-employed and wanted to use the car in my work. We wanted to trade the car and put the new car in my wife's name only, since she has the "documented" employment and had the financing all set.

CARS won't allow this type of trade. Dealer says we will have to have both our names on the title of the new car, and also that we will have to wait until October, when the vehicle will have been registered for a full year in the same name.

aviboy97

Without the CARS program they would be saddled with the high cost of keeping lots of inventory with no end in sight as to how they will sell their cars. These dealers should shut up and not push their weight around threatening to quit CARS program. They came back to life because of the program. Lets all stop buying for the next couple of months and see what will happen to them. Maybe they will stop taking advantage of consumers

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Are you kidding me? Inventory was low already BEFORE the CARS program was even launched!

Please tell me how paying MSRP is "taking advantage of a customer"??? When you go buy clothes and see the price tag say "MSRP $45" for the pair of jeans you so desperately need, you do not take them to the register and say "I'll give you $25" do you? NO!

Remember, you are taking advantage of the Government giving out FREE money for your POS!

Kirstie_H

These dealers should shut up and not push their weight around threatening to quit selling their inventory for the CARS program.

Why? They are privately-owned businesses and can decide when, whether, and how long they want to participate in this program. It is not greedy to expect to receive money they were promised, in the timeframe it was promised. It would be greedy for them to expect more than promised, or faster than promised.

Additionally, there's the question of cashflow and balance sheets. Business expenses & payroll checks still have to go out the door while these deals are on hold. It's not really fair to criticize without knowing how the delay impacts these dealerships.

cons123

Obviously you are either a dealer or working for with one or representing one. Would you rather be paying up the costs of keeping a high inventory and no certainty as to when you can sell your cars as the car dealers situation were before CARS program kicked in? Or almost no inventory and just waiting to be paid for sure. Can't you realize that the system was swamped with a lot of transactions since it wasn't anticipated that the program would take off as fast as it did. Can't the dealers wait a bit compared to a month ago when most were just waiting to close down. Before the CARS the dealers were begging for sales.

Let me explain paying MSRP only for the CARS beneficiary is taking advantage. A buyer without a clunker is given the usual discount. This usual discount is withdrawn if you have a clunker and you are entitled only for the CARS rebate. Isn't that discrimination for the CARS buyers who after all resurrected the dealers from near death. If this isn't clear enough, I don't know what will be.

queenl

Your post struck fear in my heart. I bought a vehicle last week using the cash for clunkers. I thought once you left with the car the deal was done. Hearing your situation has made me pause. One of my friends is studying contract law in grad school. She says she doesn't see how you would be obligated to give them the money unless your contract specifically states that the sale is contingent upon the clash for clunkers acceptance. She says the terms of a contract are bound by whatever the two parties accepted at the time of the contract. So barring some clause that may be in the fine print, it sounds like the dealer would be on the hook for that. If I were you I'd double check all of the fine print on your contract. Then, I'd consult an attorney before I gave them one dime. Besides, our dealer verified our 2 yrs registration prior to accepting the form. Did yours not do that?

cons123

Could you talk about cash flow before the CARS program kicked in? Obviously not because the car inventories was not moving at all. You are talking about promises. Before the CARS program not only was there no promise in fact very little hope that you could sell your cars. Can't these privately owned business just wait for the partial payment of the total cost of the car when a month earlier most were just waiting to close down? Why don't they shut up and be thankful that they businesses were resurrected?

mudhousehold

If the dealers wanted to make sure they received the promised money, they should have held on to the cars for a couple more weeks until the applications were verified and the money was received.

That totally makes sense to me, but obviously it's against CARS rules. To some extent, I feel that the dealers are caught between a rock and a hard place. Yeah, I know there is not much sympathy for dealers.

aviboy97

My biggest gripe was that the dealership refused to give me the scrap value for my vehicle in addition to the regular credit. I say report them to CARS. The CARS website says that the dealers are required to still give you the traditional rebates in addition to the clunker credit.

The "scrap value" and "traditional rebates" are two totally different items. I believe the dealer is not required to give you the scrap value.

For Pete's Sake, you already got an over inflated value for you car to begin with. Why hassle over $100?

mikefm58

Give me your email address so I can give you the dealer's name.

No need for my email address as I'm a long way away from you and don't really care about the dealer you dealt with. But my email address is always in my public profile.

And your credibility goes down when you can post the information here, have been asked by more than one person, yet still don't post it.

shophappily

my dealer wont let me drive out the new car til they get the rebate, it has been almost 2 weeks, havent heard from them

tazman14

I gave them the sheets of paper that I obtained from DMV
and the insurance paper that I went and retrieved from my agent. And they said everything was fine at the time. From what everyone is telling me the contract was based on the CARS deal and nothing else, so I should not be liable for any money should this fall completely through. But I'm trying to keep my new car. It just doesn't look like that will be the case. If anyone has anything else, let me know. Thanks for your help and imput.
tazman14

tazman14

I do know that that is not part of the deal. Your supposed to be able to drive off once the verification of title and insurance is done. They can not hold the vehicle until they recieve the rebate money. Mine appearently verified all my stuff and said have a nice day. Oops look at me now. Fighting to get this cleared up.

joel0622

For the past year you have all been talking about how the price of a new car is market driven, and the price is what ever the market will handle and that was why it was OK to ask the dealer to give up half or all of his hold back because that is what the market conditions dictated.

Well is that not the same thing now, do the market conditions not dictate the price?
You can't be a bunch of hypocrites and only stand behind your story and scream it from the roof tops when they suit you. I don't care how you spin it, this is exactly what you have all been saying since I have been a member here but now the tables have turned for a few months and all of the sudden nobody is talking about the market dictating the price.

Kirstie_H

Can't these privately owned business just wait for the partial payment of the total cost of the car when a month earlier most were just waiting to close down? Why don't they shut up and be thankful that they businesses were resurrected?

Sure, they can. But they don't HAVE to. The beauty of the system is that if they feel that the program is benefitting them enough, they will "shut up" and continue participating. If it's not, they'll discontinue their participation. It's really that simple, and it comes down to their choice. None of the dealerships are obligated to participate.

I feel lucky to live in a country where the government largely allows businesses the opportunity to make such decisions.

In any case, this personal crusade against dealerships isn't appropriate for this discussion - this topic is intended for people who have questions about whether the program will or won't work for their situation. If you want to discuss the merits of the program itself, or whether dealerships should/should not be obligated to participate, there are a couple of other discussions on our Auto News board - just type "clunker" into the search box to locate them.

Continuing along this line of conversation in this topic isn't an option.

cons123

I guess the truth is out and it hurts that everybody knows. I've asked you to give your email address. What will you do once you get the dealers name? Anyway, most of them are doing what I had relayed one way or another.

jipster

but now the tables have turned for a few months and all of the sudden nobody is talking about the market dictating the price.

Well, actually I was. I wrote that the current market should dictate a higher price. You were confused and thought me to be one of those "hypocrites" saying just the opposite. I say rake it in while you can. :surprise:

ateixeira

nobody is talking about the market dictating the price.

I am. I'm telling friends that this is a seller's market, that they should wait. Unless they actually have an 18 year old pickup lying around.

tidester

I've asked you to give your email address.

There's no need to do that. You can post the name of a dealership and the town. We only ask that you not provide contact information (names, phone numbers etc.).

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

joel0622

Get them while there hot folks. Clunker Mania ends Monday morning at 8:00 PM
WASHINGTON – The Obama administration plans to end the popular $3 billion Cash for Clunkers program on Monday, giving car shoppers a few more days to take advantage of big government incentives.

The Transportation Department said Thursday the government will wind down the program on Monday at 8 p.m. EDT. Car buyers can receive rebates of $3,500 or $4,500 for trading in older vehicles for new, more fuel-efficient models.

"It's been a thrill to be part of the best economic news story in America," Secretary Ray LaHood said in a statement. "Now we are working toward an orderly wind down of this very popular program."

Through Thursday, auto dealers have made deals worth $1.9 billion and are on pace to exhaust the program's $3 billion in early September. The incentives have generated more than 457,000 vehicle sales. Administration officials said they have reviewed nearly 40 percent of the transactions and have already paid out $145 million to dealers.

Administration officials said applications for rebates will not be accepted after 8 p.m. EDT Monday and dealers should not make additional sales without receiving all the necessary paperwork from their customers. Dealers will be able to resubmit rejected applications after the deadline.

President Barack Obama said in an interview Thursday that the program has been "successful beyond anybody's imagination" but dealers were overwhelmed by the response of consumers. He pledged that dealers "will get their money."

Dealers have complained of delays in getting reimbursed and backlogs of vehicle paperwork getting processed in the program. Dealers have said they face a risk of not being reimbursed but LaHood has pledged that dealers will get paid for the incentives.

The administration has said it has tripled the number of staffers sorting through the dealer paperwork.

kathyc2

Secretary Ray LaHood said in a statement. "Now we are working toward an orderly wind down of this very popular program."

ROFL

Doesn't sound like there has been anything orderly about it so far. :P

aviboy97

I am. I'm telling friends that this is a seller's market, that they should wait.

They won't have to wait much longer. CARS is over come Monday morning. My store is no longer accepting CARS deposits after 5pm today.

jeffyscott

...and shortly thereafter all the dealer whining about delays, etc. will change to "why'd they shut it down early, now we are selling no cars".

Odd that they picked a time that will be kinda in the middle of the busness day for car dealers in many areas. Midnight would have seemed to me to have made more sense.

dodgeman07

It is unfortunate that the program will end so soon. Sept. 1st would have made sense but what do I know?

Hopefully some "regular" buyers will hit the lots in the next few weeks otherwise many of the cars Toyota, Ford and Chevy are cranking out now will still be sitting on dealer's lots next August.

Oh well.......

joel0622

It is kind of hard to have a business plan when you are dealeing with the goverment. We figured it to go until Nov and planned accordingly