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Cash for Clunkers - Does it Work for You?

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Comments

  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    As for consumers that did the CFC..... there non in my area that were credit challenged.... maybe a the lowest score was around 680 but that was only because they ahd a lot on their breau (what ever way you spell it)

    I looked today. out of 106 C4C transactions 49 of them were cash no lien holder. Out of all the deales we submitted for financing we had 1 turn down that was C4C. One person had bad credit. IMO that is amazing. The exact opposite of what we thought would happen when the program came out.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Agreed--but a Lincoln Continental from the mid-'90s may very well have been running with nasty suspension issues for years. Most of the ones around here have turned into lowriders without any mechanical intervention. I would crush one of those without remorse.

    But if I had a nice Town Car, ideally the basic Executive series (no flaky suspension) I'd hang on to it. Not for collector potential, mind you--just because for what it is, it's a really nice ride.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I cannot imagine going from a Lincoln to an Aveo. I think he was buying it for a kid to drive to college. Or he is getting divorced and giving it to his ex. When she is gone he will go buy another cruiser Lincoln or S500. He did make out as it probably only had about a $500 trade-in value. And they would not let him trade for a decent car such as a new Buick. I don't think any midsized non hybrid gets good enough mileage for the trade.
  • smilinjackrosssmilinjackross Member Posts: 37
    I have to agre with MSV.... There many people out there with more money than they know what to do with thta drive regular cars and live in regular houses.... and I have read the book (actually listened to the cd's) and I have to agree with it.

    As for consumers that did the CFC..... there non in my area that were credit challenged.... maybe a the lowest score was around 680 but that was only because they ahd a lot on their breau (what ever way you spell it)


    Who are you agreeing with? MVs is saying that most of the C4C buyers CANNOT afford a new car. It sounds like you're saying the opposite.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I think he was buying it for a kid to drive to college.

    He did make out as it probably only had about a $500 trade-in value.


    Yes, perhaps that the car was for someone else and he is now going out to buy a new Lincoln Contental (which will be essentiall the same car as his old one was when it was new, right?) for himself.

    He could even turn around and sell the Aveo and use the money toward a new car and come out ahead of where he would have been had he just traded the Lincoln for $500.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,200
    "...vouchers rejected for niggly details..."

    When I was a social worker many years ago I would often help a client apply for food stamps, medicaid etc. The biggest problem was the red tape which demanded proofs EXACTLY as the manual stated. Applications were rejected for the most anaine reasons because they didn't fit the standard model. I had one woman rejected because she had been brought to a hospital just across the county line. She was told she had "abandoned" her home by "moving" to the hospital.

    So I feel for the car dealers but when you go for welfare you have to deal with the system. :cry:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,200
    "...we sold 107 cars..."

    My local Ford stores' lot looks like a ghost town. Even the used car lot is almost empty.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The Continental back then was just a stretched Taurus with air ride.

    Not exactly a real Lincoln and not worth crying over.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    This program was planned only to give the industry a temporay boost over this dismal year. It's done that. Now let's see how to make the program work better when the 2nd half of it goes into effect.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    The exact opposite of what we thought would happen when the program came out.


    LOL..... I though the same too Joel.... I have to say it this has been my best month in the business in 6 years.... :shades:

    GP
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I was thinking it was based on the Crown Vic, but that's the Lincoln Town Car.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Sounds like it was a month where you saw mostly those of us who keep cars for 10 years or more. Car salesmen think there are fewer of us than there really are because, of course, we are not coming in to trade cars every few years.
  • greanpea68greanpea68 Member Posts: 1,996
    Who are you agreeing with? MVs is saying that most of the C4C buyers CANNOT afford a new car. It sounds like you're saying the opposite.

    I was agreeing with who ever mentioned the "Millionaire Next door book".... and the fact that there are alot of people who have a lot of money that don't have to have expensive houses or fancy cars..... If MVS didn't agree with that than my bad... I must have read his post wrong.

    Thanks for the correction,

    GP

    TOo be continued....
  • 94gs94gs Member Posts: 59
    I have to say it this has been my best month in the business in 6 years....

    That's great!

    For C4C, I bet the most tech savvy dealers (those can handle the computer transactions quickly and without mistakes) win.

    I have read that C4C can compress the new car sales in a few weeks, such that much less new car sales will occur in the following months. Let's see if this prediction will hold true.

    Please keep us posted. Thanks!
  • mvs1mvs1 Member Posts: 462
    I was stating this tongue in cheek...

    My original statement was based off an msn article I read from Sunday night, it was then challenged as 'opinion', and then the poster followed up with their opinion based on reading a book...

    We'll all learn what this program has created down the road- clunker hangover, pulling sales forward, short term boom, benefits only for the millionaire next door, vehicle repossessions, or none of these.

    I am surprised with the information you have on cash deals.

    I'm not certain if customers will never be upside down....Question, if clunker deals are closer to MSRP, and this program exhausted most of the remaining 2009s, which are already a year old with 2010s out or hitting lots in 4-6 weeks, wouldn't the clunker money basically offset the first year depreciation?
  • mvs1mvs1 Member Posts: 462
    The calls came into my wife as "new calls", two of the three dealers Curry Honda (NY) and Manchester Honda (CT) had inventory that met our model requirement but not color choice.

    Manchester sticks to a firm pricing strategy which is $600-700 under invoice, they pass no rebates or incentives to the customer (at least not in our quotes), although I have not dealt with them in the past. They had three available vehicles, but again not our color choice. I was amazed they had three when other dealerships had zero for quite awhile and couldn't get them in.

    Aside form this one time during this program, tri-state dealers have always followed up with us quickly.
  • mvs1mvs1 Member Posts: 462
    In general I agree with persons not living a lavish lifestyle and having financial security, millionaires, or close to that. I'm not certain if those people make up the majority of C4C deals.

    My guess is we'll see many clunker repossessions in the news over the coming months.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    my only honda is used to get rid of the snow from my driveway and side walk, but i buy my parts from Manchester.
    they have a very good rep for customer service.
    i think their pricing policy has always been to give you a number, and it is what it is.
    not sure what colors they have remaining, but i will bet they have not found a buyer yet, where color and discount are not on top of the list.
    i am also guessing you won't bring it there for service.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Why should you be surprised.

    Myself, Joel, Spyder and others have been saying most of these were cash since the program started. Look at what happened to the savings rate over the past year plenty of people were socking money away because they were afraid to spend it.

    I can't speak for the rest but we didn't' sell any cars for anywhere near MSRP.

    We are in a very competitive market and everyone got all their incentives plus some additional discount. On a 40,000 dollar Volvo there was probably 6,000 in incentives, dealer cash incentives not customer rebates, from Volvo plus the clunker money plus another 1,000-2,000 in discount from us plus potentially some owner loyalty rebate money.

    That person paid right around 30,000 or a little above that with taxes.

    Did we go hundreds or thousands of dollars behind on any deals? No, but no one paid MSRP either. We haven't had any deals thousands behind invoice since we cleared out our remaining 2008s anyway.
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    This is a perfect example of what a piss-poor job the government does with anything it attempts to tackle. Inefficient, robust, and slow - dont expect anything more. And Obama wants government run healthcare?

    You nailed it! IMO, this C4C debacle will hurt his plans to reform health care, just more and more government spending pushing us further and further in debt. How much more can it go before we start seeing serious consequences?

    I saw a bumper sticker today, I'll keep my guns and religion, and you can keep the "change".
  • mvs1mvs1 Member Posts: 462
    With all due respect, you're speaking to a small sampling of all vehicle sales made under the CARS program and referencing a few dealers nationwide.

    Based on the numbers I've found on a few different sites the total number of cars sold under this program is between 630,000-700,000

    http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/24/cash-for-clunkers-ends-tonight-8-p-m-est-2-- - 65-billion-spent/

    Let's say the persons you mentioned and your dealership sold 1000 cars under this program (assuming customers paid cash for all of these) and you use the low number in the link of 630,000 vehicles...what's that .15% of the total vehicles sold?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Another unforeseen but not unimportant benefit to the program.

    The lenders loved it. Not only were the clientele in the upper scale of normal buyers with nearly pristine credit credentials ( the most sought-after buyers ) but just as importantly all the vehicles purchased with the Cash credits put the lenders in a more secure position. No Negative Equity with these buyers.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    This program was also good for the states as they got more income from the sale of these vehicles (sales tax). Considering the majority of the states are running a deficit, any little bit helps. Dealerships moved cars but they also now need to order more cars from the factory. Most manufacturers did not expect this with the current economy. That puts people work (GM recalled 1300 employees). Factories order parts from their suppliers. Cars need to be delivered to the dealership.

    You may not like the program and are searching for any negative press you can find, this program gave the auto industry a shot in the arm when the COUNTRY needed it. Is it going to miraculously get us back to 2006, no way. But it is the first government spending program where you can tangibly measure the success.

    BTW, do a simple Google search and what kdhspyder is saying about the Cash for Clunkers bill is true. Don't necessarily agree about it being Republican based and don't understand the Mexico part either. I've been to Cancun twice and if I was forced to live there, I'd be pretty happy. ..... The initial bill was designed to be an environmental bill targeting pickups and SUVs and encouraging the purchasing of hybrids. That bill got no traction at all esp since it would have benefited Toyota and Honda.

    Based on the tone of your post, do you rally want to give Obama credit for such a successful program? Did you forget about the two stimulus packages under Bush; the $700B bank bailout under Bush; the initial loans to GM and Chrysler Bush approved despite objections from Congress. I don't agree with the government spending but if you really want to play the political blame game, let's get the facts straight.

    There is enough blame to give everyone for the mess we are in.
  • dxm1dxm1 Member Posts: 2
    Im not much for bumper stickers, but that one might be worth getting. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    You are going to flee to Europe to escape what you see as socialism? What? Are you sure you've been there before?

    You do know C4C style programs have existed in many nations on the continent for some time...

    You can't really believe it matters at all who you vote for...all candidates bow to the same special interests.
  • bigappaloosabigappaloosa Member Posts: 5
    Just thought I'd throw this out. As I had stated in a previous post, I was thinking about trading in my Trooper (with ticking oil burner GM engine) for a Kia Borrego under C4C but couldn't get any of the local dealers to come off the MSRP minus $3K Kia rebate even though I was paying cash. This morning I got a call offering me a new Borrego EX, list 29,995, for 19,495 plus TTL & Fees. Too late. The Trooper is in the process of getting a new engine at this moment plus a few other upgrades that should serve me well for at least 4-5 more years.
  • sigsis72sigsis72 Member Posts: 5
    I did a c4c deal on 7/27/09. Signed all documents, paid cash, dealer accepted trade in vehicle. Everything went fine. To date have not received plates or registration. Salesman is telling me they are awaiting approval before issuing plates and registration. In my state you are only allowed 30 day temp. tags. This was almost a month ago. What are my legal options with this if I can't get the plates by Fri.? I will not sign anything if they try to tell me I have to sign another document. No where on the sales contract does it say contingent on c4c approval. I don't even know if they still have my vehicle I traded in. Is anyone else experiencing this?Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think you are in the majority. Luckily the dealer followed the law and gave you the new vehicle. One of our Toyota dealerships has 8 Prius sitting on the lot not yet delivered to C4C customers.
  • joegiantjoegiant Member Posts: 90
    Sounds like you bought a vehicle made by a manufacturer who is NOT advancing the money to the dealers. I bought my Hyundai automobile on the 24th of July, same as you - cash. I've had my plates & registration for about a week now and the title came in the mail the other day as well. Now whether or not my particular dealer has rec'd the gov't voucher money back yet (to which they will forward back to Hyundai of course), can't say. Can say that this particular corporation DID forward the money to it's dealers so as to alleviate any possible tie ups related to the C4C program.
  • 100chuck100chuck Member Posts: 149
    http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/26/autos/clunkers_roundup/index.htm

    NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- With the final numbers now in, the Department of Transportation said Wednesday that nearly 700,000 old cars had been traded in for new ones under the Cash for Clunkers program.

    "This is one of the best economic news stories we've seen and I'm proud we were able to give consumers a helping hand," Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said.

    Shoppers had until 8 p.m. ET Monday to buy a car under the Cash for Clunkers program and dealers were given until 8 p.m. Tuesday to file their paperwork on-line to request a government voucher.

    Auto dealers submitted total of 690,114 requests for vouchers, according to LaHood. Those requests totaled about $2.9 billion, or just under the $3 billion that had been allocated for the program.

    he average vehicle purchased under the program had fuel economy of 24.9 mpg in combined city and highway driving compared to an average of 15.8 mpg for vehicles being traded in.

    That's an average fuel economy improvement of about 58%. The new vehicles being purchased also had 19% better fuel economy than the average vehicle available on the market today.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    There's a slight error in the math but for the bulk of the public it's way over their heads.

    The statement was..
    That's an average fuel economy improvement of about 58%. The new vehicles being purchased also had 19% better fuel economy than the average vehicle available on the market today.

    It should read...
    That's an average fuel economy improvement of about 58% [ in the fuel economy rating ]. The new vehicles being purchased also had 19% better fuel economy [ rating ] than the average vehicle available on the market today.

    Actually the savings in fuel usage are the key issue. Here is the real math..
    Average of the 'clunked' fleet ( on paper ), 15.8 mpg. This means that if the 'clunked' fleet still was able to get its original EPA ratings ( very very doubtful ) then those 690,114 vehicles would have used 63.3 gallons on average to travel 1000 miles. Since many of these were very old and very inefficient that 15.8 mpg rating is good only on paper.

    Average of the new purchased fleet ( in reality ), 24.9 mpg. This means that those new 690,114 vehicles would use 40.2 gallons on average to travel 1000 miles.

    The net savings for the country, at a minimum, is 23.1 gallons on average for every 1000 miles travelled for each of the 690,114 vehicles now on the road. At 15,000 mpy travelled by most drivers now that comes to...

    ...239 million gallons not purchased, not used, not burned...each and every year. That's money that stays here in our pockets
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    To keep this in perspective. According to the EIA we use 378 million gallons of gasoline per day. While any savings is good. 239 million gallons per year is not really significant. We could have saved far more petroleum by switching to diesel along with the rest of the world. Being the big suckers that we are in the USA, we opted to be second class citizens of the World and continue to use inferior fuels at a much higher rate than needed. Saving one tenth of one percent is hardly going to help our balance of trade in oil imports. Your figure also assumes the owner of a new car will still drive the same amount of miles he drove the old clunker he traded in.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I guess you don't get the idea of sampling.

    If you have several different dealers in different geographic an demographic areas all telling you that the majority of the buyers were cash buyers or had Tier 1 Triple A credit then there is a good chance that is true for the rest of the program.

    Joel is in TN selling domestics and he saw the same thing that I saw up in CT selling mostly import euro cars. Greenpea saw the same thing in Mass and Spyder saw the same thing in VA selling many different makes.

    I think Craig saw something similar out in the northwest. Everyone that I have talked to that has done clunker deals mentioned how many cash buyers there were and how frustrating the F&I people were.
  • 100chuck100chuck Member Posts: 149
    I think Craig saw something similar out in the northwest. Everyone that I have talked to that has done clunker deals mentioned how many cash buyers there were and how frustrating the F&I people were.

    I didn't pay cash but I did qualified for the 0% financing and I was surprise the F&! people didn't try to sell me an extended warranty or credit life.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    In this market I would rather finance at 2.9% or less then pay cash.

    Conserve your cash use Ford's/Toyota's/Honda's cash instead.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    In this market I would rather finance at 2.9% or less then pay cash.

    If you have an alternate investment with which you can reasonably expect a 2.9% or better APY, then this is correct. The S&P 500 has gained something like 40% in the last six months--but it's still worth less than it was a year ago. The stock market is still volatile, and many folks can't take the uncertainty. In that context, many people will opt for the increased liquidity of a larger-than-usual cash reserve, even if it means maintaining debt that would otherwise be paid off.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Well I didn't just mean the stock market I just meant the entire market i.e. the economy as a whole.

    Hang on to your cash even in a low interest bearing account for other use then tie it all up in a car purchase.

    If something bad happens, job loss or forced relocation for example, you have your cash to pay for that or you could pay down part of the loan early on the new car and get out of it whenever you need to.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Joel is in TN selling domestics and he saw the same thing that I saw up in CT

    Where in CT are you? I'm in CT as well.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Just west of Hartford down off of 44 and up 10 a bit.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Nice. I'm in western CT off of 84 just east of the NY border.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I think you outsmarted yourself here.

    You would have received 3500-4500 for a Trooper that had virtually no value. You would have paid MSRP less a 3000.00 rebate and you got stubborn because they wouldn't come off MSRP?

    So now, you are installing a new engine in a car that won't be worth much more with that new engine.

    Suppose something else breaks?

    Suppse someone runs a light and hits it. It would take very little to total it!

    I'm no fan of Kias and I've never even heard of a Borrego but I think you should have jumped on that deal!

    Just my opinion.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Danbury area.. I used to sell steel to Union Carbide there.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    I think you outsmarted yourself here.

    I don't think so. 30K MSRP w/ 3K rebate and C4C would put it around 24-25K after taxes. Edmunds shows 3 year depreciation at 15K, so at the end of 3 years he would be out 9-10K.

    How much does an engine run? 2-3k?

    Sounds to me like it make a good financial decision passing on the Kia.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    One of the flaws of this programming was allowing people to exchange one gas guzzler for another. The Borrego V8 is only rated 17 MPG combined. No better than many of the clunkers traded in. They also top out over $40k. With higher than average depreciation. I think he is better off with his old Trooper and a new engine. As was pointed out the new engine does not give it any additional trade-in value. Just more miles on the road and no more gas than a new Kia Borrego.
  • kathyc2kathyc2 Member Posts: 159
    Tell me about it! That was my only real gripe with the first billion.

    However, the additional 2 bil reminds me too much of helping a down and out friend or relative and they come back 2 weeks later with their hand out again. :P
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    ...239 million gallons not purchased, not used, not burned...each and every year. That's money that stays here in our pockets

    So all these klunkers would have continued to run forever had they not been klunked? Your math is off, the gasoline savings would only be for the remaining miles.

    If, say, the average klunker had 30K mi of life left in it, then the best case is a savings of about 460 million gallons, assuming the rest of your math is accurate. This came at a cost of nearly $3 billion, which is more than $6 per gallon of fuel saved.

    Beyond this you do not know is someone klunked an F150 for a focus and then will shortly go out and buy a new F150. I noticed Ford ad last night, they had been advertising this cars program but have already switched to advertising big rebates on the F150.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    But he couldn't have gotten the V8 because it is 17 combined. He had to go with the V6 to get the clunker money because it is 18 combined and 18 was the minimum gas mileage.

    His trooper must have the 2.8 GM six cylinder which was a garbage motor. One of the worst V6s GM ever made. The newest it can be is a 1991 as that was the last year the 2.8 went in that car. The Trooper that year got 15 combined but if his engine was ticking and smoking no way was it getting 15 combined anymore. An improvement of three miles per gallon from 15 is not a huge improvement in raw terms but is a huge percentage improvement. That is a 20% increase in gas mileage. You get a newer larger truck that has more safety equipment gets better mileage and pollutes much, much less.

    The only price so far I can find for 2.8s is here.

    link title

    2,500 bucks plus installation which I would guess would have to be at least a grand maybe more I have worked on those Troopers before but never put a motor in one. I mean I guess if the truck is in good shape but the engine then a minimum of $3,500 bucks to get another 100,000 or so miles out of it is ok. I wouldn't do that not with that worthless 2.8 motor though.

    Its still an old truck with almost no safety gear.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am looking at the TMV for the Borrego here in San Diego. It is on Edmund's below Invoice before they add the $3000 rebate on all models. I think that is what he was mainly complaining about. That would make the price on the V6 about $5300 under MSRP without even haggling. I don't see those as big sellers in this market. While I would be reluctant to replace an engine in an old beater. I think he has better options now that C4C is history. With a new engine he can prolong the agony a little longer. Do a little research and get more bang for his buck.
  • mvs1mvs1 Member Posts: 462
    Quite amusing post...

    I wouldn't call your biased information a sampling. Due to the limited size of your observations the sampling error present means it's quite far from the actual population.

    My opinion is that this program will result in a high number of repossessions and month's from now we'll be reading/seeing it online/papers/kindle/news.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    His unscientific sampling still beats your total lack of evidence.
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