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Cash for Clunkers - Does it Work for You?

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Comments

  • jb_turnerjb_turner Member Posts: 702
    "Can I enforce the original contract?"

    No...not unless you paid for the car and if you did pay for the car you may have to see an attorney.

    "How would I find out?"

    Get legal advise.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Be sure and have all your paperwork and report it to the CARS.GOV contact for fraud. If the car was in stock the rules say the dealer has to deliver it to you when the deal is made. Call the hotline on this site. They owe you a car at the price on the invoice in which you put down a deposit. That is fraud and hopefully the Feds will go after them.

    http://www.cars.gov/
  • jb_turnerjb_turner Member Posts: 702
    Even if the dealer did not abide by the rules how is this fraud?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Agreed. If accurate this seems like a slimy situation but it's not fraud. It's just unethical. The Feds have nothing to do with it, it's just a day-to-day commercial dispute that happens a thousand times a day across the entire economy in all kinds of business.
  • fastsvofastsvo Member Posts: 36
    Your not alone.

    Three dealers rejected my CFC because I had a legal and notarized general power of attorney on the clunker and were scared that this might be reason enough for a temp worker at the NHTSA to deny them of the $$ expected for their claim. Why would dealers loose confidence in this program and not want to sell me a car? Because the NHTSA did such a horrible job in paying back the dealers in a timely manner and thus dealers didn't want to take a possible hit on a CFC deal.

    In the end, I still blame the dealerships for not having the education and understanding of how legal binding documents work and refusing to acknowledge the rules stated by the NHTSA (which expressively stated that power of attorney sales will be accepted). These guys might make a lot of money, but they lack education in contract and business law (besides ethics).

    If any reporter and/or news agency would like to contact me about my story. Please feel free to email me at:

    ffastsvo AT AOL.COM
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If accurate this seems like a slimy situation but it's not fraud. It's just unethical.

    I think you are wrong on both counts. If he put down a deposit on an invoice for a vehicle with the VIN recorded as he claims, and the dealer sells that car the consumer has been a victim of fraud. If it is under the C4C umbrella the NHTSA should be the overseer and prosecute.

    It is unethical to tell someone a price over the phone and when you get to the store they claim otherwise. Difficult to prove. It sounds like he had a good deal cut and the dealer found a customer willing to pay more. It sure would not hurt to present his documentation to the NHTSA. I would do that before I spent money on an attorney.
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Three dealers rejected my CFC because I had a legal and notarized general power of attorney on the clunker

    What did it say? I mean what was the POA for?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Stuff happens. Stuff happens all the time. The vehicle falls off the truck. Two sales people sell the same unit without anyone catching the double sale. These are mistakes. Not fraud.

    Or the dealer could just be slimy and got a better price from a subsequent buyer and sold it out from underneath the OP. OMG..buyers do that every day when they're shopping.

    Without any of us being involved we can only surmise from one side of the story.

    But it's not fraud. Nothing was submitted to the Feds ( presumably ). It would have been fraud if the dealer submitted the deal to the Feds based on the OP's docs. Anyway believe whatever you wish. Have a bright day.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    These guys might make a lot of money, but they lack education in contract and business law (besides ethics).

    That has nothing to do with it. We, the dealers, can't control NHTSA.
    You yourself noted that NHTSA wasn't paying dealers in a timely fashion.
    Claims were being bounced for all kinds of reasons. If you as a dealer have thousands of dollars hanging out, you wouldn't want to take any chances either.
    If NHTSA had done a better job of communicating and paying claims quicker,dealers would have had more confidence in the system.
  • stove1stove1 Member Posts: 53
    Sounds like you have a contract with the dealer and dealer breached contract. He definitely owes you $4500 you otherwise would have gotten. Beware most guys here are car salesman . They are not your friend. Get yourself a lawyer. Talk to reporters. Report that dealers unethical behavior to the CARS administrators.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    They are not your friend.

    They may have views different from yours but they are straight shooters. :)

    However, the rest of your advice is good.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    A reporter is looking to speak to consumers were not satisfied by the customer service provided by Toyota (or Toyota dealerships) during the Cash for Clunkers (or CARS) program. Please send your daytime phone number to ctalati@edmunds.com by Friday, September 11, 2009.
    Thanks,
    Chintan
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds.com

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Beware, there some people here who are not your friend, they just like to hear themselves talk. :D

    Just kidding, he gives sound advice.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sucks to be #1, eh?

    Why target Toyota? Didn't they close the most C4C deals?

    They should target the ones that were NOT able to seal the deals.

    Just seems backwards. :sick:
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Why target Toyota?

    I don't know that Toyota is being "targeted." Perhaps the reporter already has a lot of reports concerning Ford, GM, Chrysler, Nissan and so on and is only trying to make up for a relative dearth of Toyota reports. It's impossible to judge with the article not having been written yet.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Holly crap, don't you all even dare start whining about some one possibly writing a not glowing report on an import. You people have been dog piling the Domsetics every since I have been on this board.

    Toyota is fixing to get a good dose of what it is like to be #1. They learned nothing from watching the road GM and Ford went down.

    Maybe your reporter can check into this to.

    A former Toyota attorney's lawsuit claiming the company withheld and destroyed evidence regarding rollover accidents has prompted a Texas vehicle safety attorney to prepare to refile 15 lawsuits against the automaker on Tuesday.
    Dimitrios Biller worked as an attorney for Toyota Motor Corp. for four years until 2007, including representing the automaker in accident litigation.
  • joel0622joel0622 Member Posts: 3,299
    Why target Toyota? Didn't they close the most C4C deals?

    They should target the ones that were NOT able to seal the deals


    But guess who gained the most market share for the 7th month in a row.

    image

    I figure I am about 6 moths to a year from throwing a whole lof "I told you so's" around this joint. :D
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    from what I remember reading, Ford did well, but so did Volvo (though that might have been reltated to new product?)

    The big gainer though was Subaru, though they had been doing well (one of a few up in 2009?) already. Might just be a case of right product, right timing?

    I do have to say Joel that the Ford fleet is vastly better than what they had a few years ago, and with the stuff coming from Europe in the next few, you should be busy.

    Amazing. All these years, the people that said the D3 just had to make better quality and desirable product to survive were right!

    Doesn't hurt that the Camry and Accord are going (IMO) down the wrong path.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Maybe Subaru did well because a lot of these clunkers were 4WD or AWD and the buyers wanted the same in their new vehicle?
  • otoluvaotoluva Member Posts: 196
    My dealer called me today to inform me that my rebate is in and I can pick up my car anytime.
    For those in similar situation wanting more info. here goes:
    I'm in mass. I signed my deal on AUG. 4 and the dealer told me on the phone that my rebate was #17 of 120 C4C deals they did :)
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,200
    Now that this board will be put to sleep I'd like to relate one last sales story.

    I was talking to a friend today about his C4C experience. His story stuck in my mind because he traded an old truck on a new Accord. So many people had been beating up Honda for nasty attitudes and the "MSRP ONLY" tricks that I asked him to tell me the whole story.

    I think i mentioned before that he had gone to one Honda store and gotten a "take the color we have or forget it" attitude. He went to a second Honda store and they arrange to get the exact color he wanted with very friendly service.

    Today I asked him if the second store charged him MSRP. He told me that they took $3,000 off sticker right off the bat and gave him the full $4500 he was entitled to. They also gave him $100 salvage value for his clunker. He of course bought the car.

    So it seems that if you shopped around you could get a good deal.

    Don't you love a happy ending? :)

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm skeptical when a reporter is looking for a very specific experience. It's like they've drawn the conclusion and then only want to find a quote to add.

    guess who gained the most market share for the 7th month in a row.

    Subaru? They had a record month last month, and in a market that has tanked I think they may have roughly doubled their market share.

    Ford's lineup had improved dramatically, though I'd like to see a current Focus. They'll be fine.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    The federal government is unlikely to recoup all of the billions of dollars that it has invested in General Motors and Chrysler, according to a new congressional oversight report assessing the automakers' rescue.

    The report said that a $5.4 billion portion of the $10.5 billion owed by Chrysler is "highly unlikely" to be repaid, while full recovery of the $50 billion sunk into GM would require the company's stock to reach unprecedented heights.


    No, Really??

    Prediction: before the end of the year we have a government report that C4C wasn't all that great of an idea in light of displaced sales that are about to cause sales drops as the new model year vehicles don't sell as well as expected. But no doubt, some are going to be surprised when this happens.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I disagree, if only because there's no way a report could be out so soon, LOL, they're just not that efficient.

    I really think it would have done more good if they had smaller incentives and made it last a bit longer. It just didn't last nearly long enough.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,659
    Why does every extra sale that happens, have to come at the expense of future sales?

    Auto sales aren't static. If they were, there would be an extra 7,000,000 sales waiting to happen, as that's how far down we are from the peak of five years ago..

    I'm not sure a lower amount for each Clunker would have worked. A lot of the cars traded, had a decent cash value ($1500-$2000), as they had to be running, continuously insured and continously registered... If it gets any lower, there isn't enough of a premium, ergo less incentive to trade.

    Most dealers that sold C4C eligible cars had their best month in the last three years in August... Manufacturers cleared their stock of small cars, re-called laid off workers. 700,000 (mostly) fuel-efficient, low-polluting cars were put into service, with lower than average loan balances due to the large rebates.

    All for less money than the government spends propping up ethanol in a year...

    Yes.. we'll never see a return on the money given to GM and Chrysler (most likely).. But, I'd rather see the money go to taxpayers to help them buy one of their cars, than just write them another big check.

    Edmunds Price Checker
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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    logically, this program probably didnt pull forward as many sales as other incentives probably could (or have).

    At least anecdotally, a lot of people weren't planning to get rid of their old car, but the C4C was too good to pass up.

    so maybe they would have done something in the future. 6 months? A year? And quite likely, they may have bought used (being frugal and all!)

    But, I really have no idea how many of the people that did clunker deals were going to buy in sept.-oct. anyway, since those were the only real pull forwards.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Why does every extra sale that happens, have to come at the expense of future sales?

    I think it's safe to say that not all of the sales came at the expense of future sales although some of them certainly did. At this point, we just don't know how many. It's also safe to say that some of the sales came at the prior expense of people who delayed purchases knowing that the C4C program would benefit them by waiting a few months to take advantage of it.

    It will be some time before we know one way or the other whether C4C was beneficial or harmful or a wash overall.

    I'd rather see the money go to taxpayers to help them buy one of their cars, than just write them another big check.

    But didn't the money come from the taxpayers in the first place? :confuse:

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    But didn't the money come from the taxpayers in the first place?

    No the govt. just printed it. :sick: Did you see your taxes go up? I didn't.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,200
    "...No the govt. just printed it..."

    LOL. That's the spirit. BTW, I've got this bridge in Brooklyn... ;)

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Well all the CARS money did come from money already allocated to the DOE months ago for other uses so they didn't appropriate additional money just for CARS they simply reallocated resources.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My Miata purchase earlier this year was not static.

    I first test drove a 99 model. 10 years later I bought when I felt the timing was good and prices were low (due to the downturn).

    If prices had stayed high I would simply have kept my 93.

    So Mazda's incentive didn't pull it forward. It created a new sale that would otherwise not have happened.

    In fact had prices not dropped, I would have bought another used Miata instead of a new one.

    Low prices do create new sales, not just push them forward.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,296
    I'm not sure a lower amount for each Clunker would have worked.

    They started to run out of money after 3 weeks, so they very well could have dialed the amount down $750-$1,000 to get more clunkers off the road. The amount should have been figured so the program would last about 4-6 months... not the one month panic rush they had. You had a lot of melon heads trading in cars worth $4k-$5k to get the $3,500 rebate. :sick:
    2021 Honda Passport EX-L, 2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Fed already made state sales tax for new cars tax deductible.

    In MD that's 6%. About $1300 or so on mine.

    So if I'm in the 28% tax bracket, that's a $364 tax credit for me.

    Instead, what if....

    They could even replace the states sales tax rule with a $500 deduction (for the +4mpg rule) or even a $1000 deduction (+10mpg).

    That could last a very long time, a full year.

    The problem is you don't get the immediate gratification, no free down payment to get you shopping. Just a thought.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    And in that case the dealer should have put 4,000-4,500 real wholesale money on the car and just wholesaled it to make some quick profit or try and retail it to make some real money.

    750-1,000 bucks wouldn't have worked because it wouldn't have been enough. That is not even going to cover the taxes on a new car. I would have liked to see a lower bracket at the 2,500 dollar level for any fuel economy improvement or just for old cars but the 3,500-4,500 marks were fine.

    Another reason for the 3,500-4,500 allowance is that, for the most part, banks aren't financing cars without 20% or so down. The average new car is 25,000 or so and so 3,500-4,500 covers that 20% down.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good points, but I still would have liked to see it last a bit longer, stretch out the money somehow.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I think he was saying reduce the amount by (not to) $750-1000. I would think $2500 to $3500 may well have still been effective but slower.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    A reporter is looking to speak to consumers were unhappy that they paid (or were offered a price) over invoice for the Toyota Prius during Cash for Clunkers. Please send your daytime phone number to ctalati@edmunds.com by Wednesday, September 16, 2009.
    Thanks,
    Chintan
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds.com

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • hotdog9721hotdog9721 Member Posts: 1
    i traded my clunker for a new f-150 ford pick-up and got 4500 plus 250 from the slavage. signed all the paper work got the loan and then 10 days later the dealer called and said i needed to come up with the 4750 because my clunker wasnt allowed.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Did the contract state you'd pay if the money didn't come through?

    I don't see how they can just change the price like that.

    I'd return the truck and cancel the deal.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    i needed to come up with the 4750

    Even if your clunker was not allowed, what could possibly justify their asking for the "salvage?" They would legally only have been allowed a $50 administrative fee for scrapping the clunker and that would have been the full extent of their loss.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    Well, that is the downside to doing a spot delivery.

    Take the truck back, and tell them to hand over your clunker. And good luck filling in the hole the bored into the engine block!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    anyway, I would love to see the paperwork on the sales agreement. I have to guess they may have to eat the trade in. oops.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think the Feds want to have hundreds of disgruntled car buyers calling their Senators and Congress men complaining about their flawed program. The one dealer that submitted the same paperwork 7 times before it was approved sticks in my mind. What if the dealer only submitted once and gave up? If I was one of the people the dealer was trying to get money from I would tell them to keep resubmitting the paperwork until they get a person with a brain at the Federal level.
  • buttnekedbuttneked Member Posts: 3
    It would probably have gone better, if the "intended victims" the had targeted, would have styepped up tot he plate as expected. Instead we are going to hava a bunch of cars getting repoed due to the fact that unintended targets got in the mix.
  • buttnekedbuttneked Member Posts: 3
    well, from what I have gathered there were quite a few dealers that "jumped the gun " also.
  • buttnekedbuttneked Member Posts: 3
    the people that got the c4c will pay on their taxes this coming year, it will show up as income the recieved for the trade in.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    You actually don't know anything about this. Dealership personnel on this forum have reported that most of the C4C customers paid cash or had far above average credit ratings.

    Do your homework.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    The C4C law specifically states that the rebate is income for the DEALER, not for the CUSTOMER. Again, do your homework.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Just call these guys in three months! :P

    image
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    If you've tried to secure a loan in the past year, you would realize that banks have tighten things up considerably. Getting a loan is not like it was 2-3 years ago especially on a car. Ask the car salesmen on this forum.
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