Subaru Legacy/Outback

bookworm28

Hello everyone, I have been lurking here for a few days and I just registered to post messages. I am looking for some help with making my buying decision. I began car shopping about a month ago and I had decided to look only at the Camry. I have recently learned of the oil sludge problem and I am now very leery of buying a Toyo, even though my '95 Camry has 90k miles on it and has never let me down.

I am going to a local Subaru dealer tomorrow to test drive some Subies.

Here is my dilemma:

I have researched the Subaru here on Edmund's and elsewhere and I am somewhat confused. It appears to me that the Legacy and Outback are the same size and the Forester is only slightly smaller. Is this correct? If so why the big price difference? Are they all different variations of the same vehicle platform?

I would like to hear some Subie owners' reasons for choosing Legacy over Outback or vice versa.

I would also be interested to hear reasons for choosing wagon over sedan and vice versa.

One last question: I have seen some posts here alluding to significant changes for the 2003 model year. Can anyone give me details and/or point me in the right direction so I can find out this info? When are the new models due to arrive? I am not very pressed for time, but I am sure that the salesperson I will meet tomorrow will (understandably) push me to buy now rather than wait.

Thanks in advance for your assistance

cptplt

They are essentially the same car. A few years ago Subaru decide to modify the Legacy and market this "Sport Utility Wagon" thing to compete with SUVs.Until this latest model, the OB was just a trim level in the Legacy line up, now its a "seperate" model. The OB looks a little different than the Legacy with the lower body cladding, different bumpers, rides an inch or so higher, different gearing, higher profile tires etc. In the last few years Subaru has come out with higher trim versions in the OB and only offer the H6 engine in the OB right now. The Legacy GT used to be the sporty version, when all the other cars incl OB had the 2.2 engine the GT/LS/LSI/Touring had the 2.5 etc or 2.2 turbo. A H6 Legacy will probably appear soon but as OBs outsell the Legacy by 3-4 :1 in the US, it hasn''t hit the US market yet. The sportiest Legacy, the 2.0 turbo RSK/GTB with 280hp only comes in Legacy style outside the US.

The Forester is a tall wagon based on the smaller Impreza platform and so is smaller than the Legacy/OB .Depending on the trim, there is some overlap in prices.

I don't like the OB's SUV look, esp on the previous model,though the latest one looks better, so I have a 98GT Legacy wagon. Wagons/hatchbacks have always appealed to me for their practicality. Still have a 92 Legacy L sedan as my beater ("inherited" it from the in law - unfortunately the darn thing won't die on me so I can get a WRX wagon!) and used to have a 92 LS wagon. If you like a more conventional car look and slightly more sporty feel, the Legacy is the way to go except right now only the OB has the H6 engine.
The 03 Forester is new, uses the 02 Impreza platform but the changes are not major ones. The Legacy/OB is probably not going to have major changes for another 2-3 years except for maybe the H6 engine coming into the Legacy lineup.

twrx

2002 wrx wagon 5 speed wr blue
1998 2.5 RS coupe 5 speed wr blue
1992 Trek 8900 mountain bike
1991 Trek 2300 raod bike
1991 Bianchi hybrid bike
2000 Yardman Yardbug lawn mower (this is our coolest vehicle--the wife and I fight over who gets to cut the lawn--looks like a new Beetle in John Deere colors)
TWRX

storyteller

Bookworm: Everything cptplt says is right, but I will try to rephrase things a little. I've just been researching these matters, and I just about concluded I didn't deserve to own a Subie because it took me six months trying to figure out their model nomenclature! It isn't altogether clear.

Start with the idea that all Subies are AWD. The two base cars are the subcompact Impreza and compact Legacy (5 inches longer in wheelbase). The basic engine is a peppy 165 HP model. Subaru has many models based on these two basic platforms.

The Impreza line features two sport wagons and two sedans. Two of these models are the super hot rally style WRX cars, with 227-HP engines.

The Legacy line is slightly larger. It has two wagons and three sedans, each with its own unique content.

Then there are the Outbacks, and they are based on both the Impreza and Legacy, although only one is Impreza-based (the Outback Sport) and seven are based on the longer Legacy. You can think of Outbacks as a distinct style of Impreza and Legacy cars. These are marked by more body cladding and a higher stance (more ground clearance). Outbacks are differentiated from each other by content, engines and tractions control technology. Some Outbacks are very powerful.

The Forester is a station wagon that looks something like a SUV, and it is based on the Impreza. It has the 165 HP engine but a lighter body.

Most of the talk about new models has centered on the 2003 Forester, which has been significantly revised. Each year Subaru improves most models a little bit, but in keeping with Japanese practices the company does major revisions in a four-year cycle.

This will all be clear if you spend some time on the Subaru of America site: . Play with the site you can get a good sense of how the different models inter-relate.

Which to buy? Do you need an Impreza or Legacy sized car? Do you need a wagon or sedan? Do you need the extra ground clearance -- it isn't much -- of an Outback, or can you settle for the street car clearances of the regular (non-Outback) line?

After that, test-drive and nail down your preference. Don't let anyone push you around. The 2003 Forester (not on dealer's lots yet) is very exciting, but all Subies are worthy cars with many special features. Have fun!

kturner1

I like the lower center of gravity, rarity and $$$ saved.

herbruss

Bought an Outback VDC because I liked the 6 and the VTD & VDC systems. It took one high speed test drive down a dirt road to convince me that they had done it right. Started looking originally because I had gotten tired of "two try" parking in California's postage stamp parking lots and $100/week for gas in a full size extended cab pickup.
Wagons I compared against were VW Passat Wagon, Audi S4 Wagon, BMW 3 series Wagon, and Saturn.

One thing to keep in mind for your test drive is that Subaru makes several different styles of AWD depending on engine, transmission, and trim level.
Its definitely worthwhile looking at the website for how they all work.

c_hunter

The new Camry is a very slick car, but gets expensive if you load it up (approaches $30K). For that money, I think the H6 Outback Wagon (LL Bean or VDC) and sedan (H6-3.0 or VDC) are a better value. For less money (you can negotiate the price down to invoice quite easily) you will get AWD and what feels like a more refined vehicle.

If you're looking at something in the $23-25K range, then the base Outback (wagon) and Outback Limited (wagon and sedan) models are good bets. The GT wagon and sedan are also nice vehicles, and what I would pick if the pseudo-SUV image of the Outback didn't matter.

Finally, the "regular" Legacy sedan and wagon are great cars in the $20K price range.

I originally shopped for a Forester but bought an Outback. Completely overlooked the Legacy GT in the process, which would have been the better choice at the time. I don't know if it was my fault or Subaru's, but the Legacy lineup was almost invisible when I was shopping. Recently, I sold my first Outback to my parents and bought a 2002 LL Bean. I have been thoroughly happy with the new car.

Craig

armac13

Subaru has an ad in the Vancouver Sun paper this weekend for the Legacy wagon. The copy starts:

U.F.O.
(Unidentified Fabulous Outomobile)

Ross

rangerron7

I own a 2000 OB Ltd and a 2002 Forester S+ and everything posted so far is right on the mark. Like you I shopped the Camry (before the recent redesign), Saturn L and OB. (I know, I know - the OB is a totally different vehicle than the other two.) What sold me on the OB two years ago over the Camry and Saturn were 1) AWD, 2) amount of features for a very comparable price (especially compared to the Camry) 3) reliability 4) quiet ride and smoothness of the OB and 4) greater utility of a wagon.
Now, role forward two years and know we need a vehicle for my wife. We once again looked at the Saturn L but my wife decided she wanted AWD after driving my OB on a couple of snowy nights.
Both are great cars, but you really need to drive them both. The driving experience is quite different. Another important consideration is if you will be hauling rear seat passengers. If so, the pre-2003 Forester is VERY tight - only comfortable for kids and short trips with adults, IMO. (I can't comment on the new Forester, haven't seen it.)
Ron

jfl

If you are cross-shopping a Camry, consider these points:

Is AWD important/desired? Yes=Subie; No=Camry

Like "SUV" look? Yes=Outback; No=Legacy or Camry

Know the trade-offs: Slightly poorer acceleration and MPG with the Legacy/Outback because the AWD adds a bit of weight plus the friction loss.

Personally, I wanted an AWD sedan. The only choices available when I was looking were Subaru and Audi (there are more now). I'm still very, very happy with my Legacy sedan.

Good luck!

paisan

Can't hold a candle to the handling of a basic run of the mill legacy IMHO. The Camary is the ford tarus of japanese cars, nice but more like a kitchen appliance than a driver's car.

-mike

ateixeira

Since it's a 3rd car, my Miata only costs $530 per year to insure. That's in DC, 33 year old married male, no teens in the household. I'd suggest getting a quote on-line before you buy. Edmunds.com has partners, start at their home page.



Which Subaru to buy is easy, just follow the Demographic guide:

Outback: your name is Dave or Mike, or at least has a "K" in it. You own 2 dogs or cats, and use a Mac computer (or at least used to). You are truly outdoorsy, young at heart, adventurous, smart, very well educated. You have or will have 2 kids.

Legacy: same as above, only you are good at uncovering well kept secrets.

Forester: same as Outback, except you have at most 1 kid.



-juice

hondafriek

I have a 2001 Legacy GT wagon and absolutely love it.

I bought the legacy in the beginning by default, I have owned many Honda,s since they went on sale in Canada in 1976, had Honda still had an Accord wagon when I was shopping for a new car I would probably have bought Honda and not even looked at the GT.

However they got out of the wagon market In 1997, and to be honest now, I am glad they did, otherwise I would not have my beautiful GT wagon.

Much as I loved Honda,s I have to say after a year with the GT it is a much more refined car than any Honda I owned,and that,s after a string of six Accords some bought new and some used.

Also after experiencing the benifits of AWD, I will never go back to either FWD.or RWD.

Cheers Pat.

ffsteve

I am a long time Toyota owner who just switched to Subarus - a beautiful LL Bean Outback. I was (and am still!) impressed with the Outback's overall perceived quality and performance. Performance has been proven through a year's use, reliability is still TBD, I'll have to wait 10 years to see if it truly matches my Toyotas - I expect it will.

I chose the Outback over the Legacy wagon because I wanted just a little more clearance for dirt road use (not off-road), and my wife likes to sit a little higher. Although we compared against the usual suspects, the clincher was a back-to-back comparison against a Lexus RX300 where the LL Bean clearly drove and handled better (at 2/3 the price).

Steve

ffsteve

OK, I'll have to admit to:

2001 LL Bean Outback
1995 SC400
1990 Toyota Cressida
Jamis Mountain Bike
Schwinn Super Sport Road Bike

(The Cressida is included only for sentimental value - just sold it today! I've written many times on my previous bias towards Toyota, earlier cars included a 1984 Tercel Wagon and a 1982 Supra. But now I'm a fledgling Subaru junkie.)

Steve

hypov

Man, y'all can pack alot in your garages.
My pigeon coop is only good for one '98 OB and two left over tires from our '83 Caprice Classic. My 99' OBS with the other two left over tires are in the pigeon coop next to mine.
Does Roller Blades/Skates count? =D

-Dave

paisan

Too bad you sold it, I may have been interested! Loved those nice boxy cars with I6 and RWD

-mike

fibber2

I too am a 15 year Toyota veteran. But when Toyota abandoned wagons (had Camry & Corolla wagons), it became time to move on. The crew has already listed a great deal of solid information, so I won't repeat it. But you did ask about pricing, so maybe I can offer some info about the Legacy and OB wagons.

Money became a problem as I also had to replace my wifes lease van this year. I went looking for max wagon room, comfort, AWD for local winters. Sporty handling and power had to take a somewhat back seat to the above. Price target was very low $20's.

I started with the Legacy L wagon, but found it to be a bit too bare. Everything was extra. Roof rails, floor mats, etc. By the time I added a bunch of small items, I was within $2k of the base OB. And while I was not at first terribly keen on the body cladding look, a few functional things did sell me. These included the power seat (just could not get comfy in the L), the limited slip rear diffy, the better headlights (the L has 2 bulb, all others use 4 bulb), the fog lamps, extra ground clearance and more agressive tire tread for unplowed roads.

Bought the '02 base model OB wagon in Sept and am very happy with it. Price was $22,350 which included some dealer installed stuff (cargo net, bumper pad), and have since added about $700 worth of stuff (CD, tow hitch, security system, bug deflector, etc.).

Good luck,

Steve

wired1

I've been shopping the Outback wagon for a couple of months now and have felt that I needed to have the leather seats (meaning the Limited model or above)as I haul 2 retrievers around quite a bit.

The above messages mention the $$ benefits of the Legacy GT wagon. Are leather seats available with this model??

Thanks to all in advance.

99gs

I had a '95 Saab 900SE. It was a very nice car peppy turbo 4 and great handling. The 6 banger is problematic as well as the clutch in the manual version. My clutch only lasted 45K. The tech said that the design was bad on the '95s & '96's. Saab went back to a previous clutch design in '97 I believe. There are still little things that tend to go bad on them. Window washer pump, things like that. Jack

mrk610

Hey mine name is mike I have an outback a dog and a cat .I'm single at the time [whoo hoo]and I have no kids .
02 outback wagon
86 mazda rx7 glx[in peices at friends garage]
giant mountain bike

mike k

herbruss

Subarus website let's you build the car you want. Didn't see leather as an option. Might be a question for the dealer in your negotiations.

You might also want to negotiate a dog guard. Mine don't like to ride anywhere but in the OB behind the guard. Strange, but I ain't complaining. Don't see much hair up front, it all seems to stick firmly to the fuzzy parts of the trim in the back.

lark6

Maybe my '63 Studebaker would fill the bill. ;-P

Ed

hondafriek

Leather is not avaiable in the GT wagon, but you can have aftermarket leather installed and it is actually better quality leather than factory.

The most popular leather is from a manufacturer called Katzskins, there have been group buys on leather interiors in the I club.

Cheers Pat.

paisan

My dad would love one. I think he had one as a kid and talks about them all the time.

-mike

mikenk

I know I am showing my age (60) but I went off to college (59) in a hand me down 52 studebaker. You could'nt tell whether it was coming or going by its weird styling. It was V8, had a hill hold, overdrive; loaded with technology for that period. Hard to pick up girls in that thing.

By a junior, I had moved up to a 56 Studebaker Silver Hawk. Now that was a cool car; I wish I still had it.

Even then, Studebaker owners had a real bond for their unappreciated cars. I'll bet there is a forum today where they are still congregating. Come to think of it, I think I will look for it.

Mike

yellowbikedon1

I can still remember when my dad took delivery of his red Starlight coupe! A blue Land Cruiser followed the coupe. I even got into the act with a '50 green Champion convertible!. And, I can remember the end of Studebaker and my dad's first purchase of a white Oldsmobile sedan. Being 68 does have its advantages!

Don

rsholland

our next door neighbor had a light gray torpedo-nose 1950 Studebaker Land Cruiser sedan. I loved that car. Our other next door neighbor had a 1940 Mercury 4-door sedan. The old lady who lived behind us had a mid-1930's Packard stored in her garage.

At about the same time, my parents had a 1941 black Buick Special fastback 2-door sedanette, which was soon replaced by a gray 1950 Dodge Meadowbrook 4-door sedan. Ah, the good old days...

Bob

ateixeira

Mike: Ed's a Stude club member. Also, I saw a Florida club gathered in Old Town Kissimmee about a month ago, with 30 or so Avantis and other Studes. There is definitely interest.

Don: you'd be proud, I scraped the icicles (not really) and cobwebs off my bike and went for a nice ride. It was a bit chilly and I should have had gloves, but it was nice to ride again. :-)

-juice

rsholland

I clearly remember when my neighbor traded his Studebaker in for a brand-new 1954 Buick Super 2-door hardtop. 1954 was the "break-through-year" for GM in terms of styling. It was the first year of the wraparound windshield. His son, who was much older than I (he was in college), shortly thereafter bought a brand new Triumph TR3.

I'm convinced that those cars are a good part of the reason that I'm an incurable car-nut today.

Bob

bat1161

My name is not Dave, Mike or Ken (but it does have a "M" in it). I drive a MT Outback; I am married with 2 cats, no kids (yet); I have never owned a Mac; I do enjoy camping and hiking (the bride unfourtunately does not). I guess therefore I meet about 50-60% of Juices profile of an Outback owner:-)

Mark

ateixeira

So I'm mostly right? Not bad given how specific I was.

-juice

chief1989

I am a bit surprised by the number of older people on the board. For a long time I thought everyone but me was in their 20's or 30's. Good to know I am not the only one over 50.

Jim

ateixeira

Edmunds has the best subscribers. They are generally tolerant and mature, and most threads have very good discussions.

-juice

rsholland

I could really get into a discussion of '50s cars, but I'll spare all the "youngsters" here the pain...

Bob

armac13

I only owned 3 although I drove many more. I automatically assume everyone is over 50 unless otherwise stated.
:-)

Ross

storyteller

Go ahead,Bob. What makes Subie people so special is even the youngsters are tolerant. Tell us about those days when cars had starter buttons, Hi/Lo switches on the floor and little quarter front vent windows with locking latches.

rsholland

the vehicle I learned to drive on (when I was 12), was my uncle's 1941 Chevy stake bed farm truck. It did have a floor starter button, floor hi/low beam button, and a crash-box for a tranny.

Our old '50 Dodge Meadowbrook had fluid-drive and vacuum-operated windshield wipers. If you gave it gas, the wipers stopped, as it was drawing on the vacuum. This was great fun in a rain storm. The Dodge had a flathead inline 6, and our old Buick had a straight 8, and both had three-on-the-tree.

Bob

storyteller

Remember double-clutching when downshifting in the days before transmissions were synchomeshed (if that is the word)? I'm not sure even over-the-road truckers have to do that these days.

rsholland

double-clutching was the only way to shift that old '41 Chevy truck without grinding gears.

Speaking of double-clutching, when I was in college, one summer I drove a Good Humor ice cream truck up in Palisades Park and Leonia NJ. The truck was a '51 Ford F-2 (precursor to the F-250), it too had a crash box which required double-clutching for clean shifts. Anybody who is familiar with Palisades Park know there are a lot of steep hills there. When I stopped this old truck, I would have to turn the engine off, put it in gear, put the emergency brake on, and turn the wheels to the curb. Why? Because the emergency brake was almost useless, and the engine's compression was so poor, that the vehicle would start "hopping" down the hill!!

Bob

otis123

Japanese car manufacturers have a five year cycle, not four year. Three years basically the same, then visual change for the last two years...

storyteller

Driving wasn't exactly easy when you were diving into a turn that required you to double clutch to make the shift to second, and meanwhile you'd be cranking like mad on the wheel because before power steering the gear ratios had to be high to make it possible to turn the wheel. Some heavy cars were so hard to steer at rest that women couldn't do maneuvers like parallel parking. That took a man's arms.

rsholland

Yeah, back then that was a rarity. It really was tough to maneuver some of those old vehicles.

The word "precision" wasn't even part of the vocabulary.

Bob

herbruss

Manual drums for brakes, NO A/C (unless you were rich)just a vent lever, 3 on the tree, sealed beams, manual choke, bias ply tires, bumper jacks,
rubber floor mats instead of carpet, 6V electrics. Vent windows didn't have locks until the 60s on a lot of cars. Mechanical AM radios that detuned every time you hit a bump. Cloth upholstery that was scratchy as an old wool blanket. Vinyl that peeled the skin off the back of your legs on hot days. Taking all day to go 300 miles.

On the other hand everyone knew what brand/model of car you drove just by looking at it. The floor button for the high beams allowed you to keep your hands on the wheel in turns. Bench seats were great for extra friends, dating or the drivein. Letting your girl shift. Tuneups are an airtight excuse to hang out in the driveway and have a couple of beers with your buddies. $5 for a tank of "Ethyl". Cars were cool for the sounds of their exhaust, not the stereo.

We've come a long way, maybe...

paisan

are now mostly automatic transmissions, just like tour busses.

-mike

ateixeira

Those were the good ol' days? Glad my time is now, then! :-)

-juice

storyteller

about those old cars was the bench seat, and that was only good if you had a pretty girl sitting there with you. If the two of you were feeling romantic and she had scooted all the way to your side, the effect to a following car was what we called the "two-headed driver." And since your arm was over her shoulder, you couldn't shift the three on the tree. Many girls who couldn't drive were experts at running the shifter arm because that way the guy's arm stayed around her.

mikenk

I agree about the bench seats, but making turns with the arm staying around her was a challenge: no power steering and about three revolutions of the wheel. Whew!

Did anyone else make quick right turns to reposition shy girls on the seat? Had to be just the right speed or it could be embarrasing. you wanted her to slide and not tip, unless her name was Monica.

Mike

rsholland

back in the 50's was the Nash Rambler—because it had reclining seats... No other car had that feature back then.

One of my high school buddies had a hand-me-down 1954 Chrysler New Yorker limo as his car. He came from a large family (it was originally the family car), and was passed on down from several older brothers, to eventually my buddy. It was painted lavatory green, and was named the "The Green Latrine." Everybody in high school knew that car. We used to triple date in that car. It had a set of folding jump seats between the front and rear seats. Oh, if that car could only talk, the stories it could tell...

Bob

lark6

As juice pointed out before, I do belong to a Studebaker club - the international Studebaker Drivers Club, which has nearly 14,000 members worldwide. I was recently nominated editor of my local chapter's monthly newsletter; it'll take up some time but I figured I'd give it a shot for a year.

Mike: I believe the "necker knob" was designed to assist in turning the car while repositioning your date.

Bob: My '63 also has split reclining bench seats which will fold flat into a bed-like area. Nash had them first, to be sure, but these follow the same principle. They are covered in thigh-peeling red vinyl.

Ed