62K is not a bunch of miles for a 5 year old vehicle. In fact, it's less than the annual average of 15K per year. Why are your figures so much lower than what all the web sites are giving me? They're all saying retail is mid 7's to low 8's, and trade in is high 5's to mid 6's. I can't give this thing away, my residule is 7.7K.
..... Now now now, don't get your panties in a bunch here ..
I understand the mileage part -but- it's a domestic, it's a "base" Intrepid, no leather, no tunes, no chromes, except for the slider it's has about -0- for options 3.2 V6.? .. I'm not knocking Intrepids cuz' I buy alot of them and I do like em'...
The bad news is, there is a Kazillion of them out there, any dealer can buy a 98 ES with 35/45k, the big V6, leather, Infinity, slider, keyless, hi end wheels, all the stuff for the $5's at any auction .. so what can yours be worth .?
If you live by those books, you will die by those books .. my info comes from watching about 20 auctions a month, and try to be at least at 6 of them, so I literally see 15/20,000 vehicles a month . All do respect, I don't follow those flippin book things, if I did, I would be out of biz babe. See if one those sites or books will cut you a reader for all that $$.l.o.l...
Now, you might get Xtra lucky, it's "tumbleweed time" and you might find a dealer to drop $4,5, and that my friend would be the "whole como Se' yama ~ and the bag of chips" .. if $7,7 is the pay-off, give it a big kiss and say by by too it.
.....then why do KBB and NADA both say it's worth over 8K retail and over 6K on trade? Besides, isn't NADA what the dealers, banks, and the entire auto buying world go by, or do they just pull some arbatrary out of the sky?
There's a couple reasons why I think this car is worth more. It's only 5 years old, and no vehicle, not even Korean built vehicles, drop in value from 22K, to 3 or 4K in that short of a time period. Secondly, this is not an ES model, but it's not bare bones either. It has the following options, CD player, power seat, power moon roof, and ABS brakes. Lastley, I probably wouldn't consider trading it in because of the obvious loss I would take, and I've noticed that most of the 98's listed for sale in our local paper are listed between 7.5 K and 9K. According to that, it looks like the KBB and NADA numbers are closer to it's actual value.
I understand your feelings. But think of it this way. Are KBB and NADA going to pay that price for your car? No? Then does it really matter what they print?
Second, you might see other similiar cars in your area advertise for more. But are they really the same? Mileage, color, equipment level, condition of the car? etc. And are they really selling at that price? One can always ask for the moon, but can they get it? There's usually a 2k diference between trade in price and sales price also.
Curious if the "6" will do better than the 626 Resale wise. Sat in one Saturday, "Best Buy for the Buck". $18,520 plus dest.
By the way mine would be 5 speed manual base "i" model ( 4 cyl.), no options, comes equipped with every option an '03 Accord EX has, for less than a LX! Oh well maybe it doesn't have alloys or a Moonroof, but they match otherwise.
I can tell you that Dodge cars (trucks are better) depreciate every bit as much as many Korean cars, and worse than some. Terry's usually right on the dot. If you don't believe his numbers, why not try shopping the 'Trep around to a few dealers and see what they say? You might get lucky.
I worked with 3 different dealers around here recently and they all CLAIMED to use the KBB web site numbers. "The same information that's available to you!" they said.
In the end it doesn't really matter. It's the DIFFERENCE between purchase price and trade-in that counts and makes or breaks the deal.
We all feel your pain... but honestly, Terry really knows what he is talking about. The KBB and NADA values are "old news" by the time they are printed and should be used as a very basic guide to what the vehicle is worth. Myself, I wouldn't put much faith in the numbers those sites spit out.... Take a look at all the sites and see how far they are off of one another (KBB, Edmunds, NADA, Black book), none of them agree with each other, which should tell you something. Terry is giving us REAL values at a date and time. He is basing his values on the value these cars will get at any vehicle auction, which is the true trade-in value of the vehicle at any certain point in time. For a dealer to trade for a vehicle, they will want to be in at the wholesale price of the vehicle (which is roughly the auction price). If they show you more money, chances are they are inflating the price of the vehicle you are purchasing. The real deal is what the trade difference is, and how that relates to the value of the new car, the amount of money you are putting down, and if need be, the amount of money you need to borrow.
You have to ask yourself this question. If Terry is seeing similar cars (and he sees plenty of them weekly), with more options and half the miles at an auction for x price... why would a dealer offer you more than that price if they can buy the car with more options and lower miles at an auction next weekend?
I hate to say it, but Terry really is on the money on this stuff. Also, the market has tanked in a major way since the summer, and about time, too... used cars have been way pricey vs. new for the last few years.
Personally, I've sold two cars on the street in the last 18 months, both times for within a couple $100 of what Terry was telling me. On the '98 Prizm, a Chevy dealer offered me EXACTLY the $6k that the T-man said it was worth, and I got $7,300 from some kid (I was supposed to shoot for $8 and take $7,5). Nissan truck this past summer; got $5,700 for it, and again, only one serious buyer... so I wasn't pricing them too low or anything. I just sold (no I'm not a dealer...just redid our "fleet") a '92 Aerostar Terry thought should bring $2+. The tranny gave trouble (I fixed it, but still), the AC blew out, and the speedo started bouncing around. I had it sold by noon the first day the ad was out, for the $950 asking price. So I coulda gotten more, probably, but the car really wasn't worth more in my opinion; I'm not out to screw people either. So without the problems, the $2 would have been right on.
And yes, Virginia, the "books" were all higher on these cars, except Edmund's private-sale TMV, which was actually pretty close, both times. But see above, something's happened since September.
The books go completely nuts if the miles are nonstandard. High-mile Camry? not so good. Hi-mile Dodge? Run don't walk...
Hope this makes some sense. My next car, methinks, will be bought new... unless the market drops some more....
You also have to remember that if you were to trade your vehicle in, the dealer will give you trade-in value... minus reconditioning, add in some profit, factor in some repairs, and usually they have to give a 30day warranty or so with the sale... so then your 6k trade goes down to 3,5-4,0 ... Honestly, if you saw your car, seen the flaws, checked KBB, saw 8k on the retail side, how much would you offer a dealer for it?
Here is something that may make you feel better... 1998 Ford Taurus SHO 62k miles-- Original MSRP-- 28,920 Current Trade-- ~low 5,0 Current Retail- ~mid 6,0 1998 Chevy Lumina LTZ 62k miles-- Original MSRP-- 19,750 Current Trade-- ~low 3,0 Current Retail- ~low 5,0
Now something that may make you sick... 1998 Honda Accord EX V6 Original MSRP-- 24,150 Current Trade-- ~low 11,0 Current Retail--~mid 13,0
Just to give ya both sides of the picture... it actually is not all that uncommon for domestics to lose 50-60% of their value in 4-5 years. Factor in the lack of demand for used vehicles due to manufacturer rebates, incentives, 0% financing, etc, you can get a brand new Intrepid for about 19k with the $1500 rebate then factor in the benefit of 0% etc.
Real world values hurt, no doubt, but they can work for you too. I just bought a 94 Ford Escort LX/sport (asking price $2995) for $1630 OTD, now if I was to believe Nada and KBB I would have expected to pay around $2600 for this car. Trade in value on the Nada site is listed at $1645, ok, so take that and deduct for the dented fender....figure $200. So, by those numbers you would think that the dealer would have paid around $1445 for the car in trade right? Wrong!! They paid $1071 for the car 7 months ago!!
Its a nice little car, average miles (99k), sunroof, in good shape sans the fender and runs like a 15k car. That being said you can see how KBB and Nada and black book or whatever your poison is can hurt or work for you. I saw this many times while working in car sales.
My advise to anyone is sell it on your own and don't trade if you are upside down, it only gets worse from there. Also, domestic models for the most part depreciate much worse than most imports. If you are looking for resale buy a honda or toyota. Now stepping down from my soap box.
......because I'm not going to trade my car in. Way too much money is lost doing a trade-in.
About the comment of KBB and NADA being so much different, well actually they're both within a few hundred bucks of each other on my car.
It's not just the used car market that's in a slump, it's hitting new cars sales as well. Why do you think there are so many cash back, and 0% financing deals out there? I would think the economy being bad would force even more people to buy used, keeping used prices high. So much for logic.
I guess all I can do is try to sell my car and see what happens. If I can get a fair price for it, I'll sell it. If not, I'll keep it for a while longer. Sooner or later, it's depreciation has got to level off to a point where it's value is greater than what I owe on it. It can't depreciate at its current rate forever.
I did my duty last election and voted twice like any good chicagoian at the time. Should have came down to florida with you and bill and voted a couple more lol
Bottgers,
Listen man I feel your pain and will never buy another new DC product they are great if you buy them used and drive them to death but if you like to switch vehicles like I do they are a death warrant. I have a 300M that I bought 16 months ago that has depreciated from a sticker of 31.8k all the way to 15k. I'm trying to pay it off as quick as possible so I can "Cut it from the heard" as Terry says. The books are garbage. I look at it this way, I'm in the IT biz I would rather have a seasoned person give me advice than some rookie with a cert in their back pocket. Same in the car biz the guides are nice but I rather talk to someone who "sees" 20k+ vehicles a month.
.......this car's depreciation rate will slow down. Normally, vehicles depreciate the most during the first year or two and then level off somewhat. This thing took a nose dive the day I drove it off the lot, and it hasn't slowed down since. If it keeps depreciating at its current rate, in two or three years I'll have to pay someone to take it! Why are DC vehicles so poor at holding their resale value?
>>If it keeps depreciating at its current rate, in two or three years I'll have to pay someone to take it! Why are DC vehicles so poor at holding their resale value?
DC vehicles tend to depreciate fairly quickly due to the quality of the vehicles. I have several DC vehicles in my fleet and once they get past 70k, they start to have reliability issues, especially in the electronics.
Right now with all of the incentives, the used car market is very weak. If you own any vehicle that are not very popular, you will be hard pressed to get anything close to the "book" price. If your model is an "orphan", it is even worse.
Last year, I had to unload a 94 Mercury Topaz, V6. It was in immaculate condition. Edmunds said the car was worth $4500. My brother and I laughed and said $3000 max. It took us about 3 weeks to sell it at $2800.
What is the lesson in all of this? 1) Buy used and let the original owner eat all of the depreciation or 2) Keep a car until the wheels fall off. In either case the rapid depreciation does not affect you much.
Other than the recent sale, I sell all my cars for $500/750/1000 - after they have 150k+ miles and I decide that it is time for a newer one.
...... Good Morning .. Wow, I watch a little Monday Night football and we have echoes going on and you got the whole site in an uproar ~~ where's the love.? it's Xmas ya know .. Ok now, let's have a group hug and let's all turn to page 6, and sing "Chest hairs burning on an open fire" ...
You sound like a friggin' customer .. "I can't believe my vehicle depreciates" -- unless you have a Duesenburg, Cord or a Cobra sittin' around, all vehicles go south.
Just so you don't feel this is just a "you thing", here is some figures to lighten up your heart during this "Holiday Season".
Just going back 2 years, 00, 30k, all the stuff, MSRP, Wholesale:
00 Jag 4.0 S type, 30k, MSRP $51ish, now doing $25ish at the block.
00 Saturn LS2 4 dr, 30k, MSRP $23ish, now doing the $8's
00 Land Cruiser Disc 2, 30k, MSRP $36ish, now doing $18ish at the auctions.
00 Lincoln LS, V8, 30k, MSRP $39ish, now doing in the $17/$18 range.
00 MB E320, 30k, all the stuff, MSRP $53ish, now doing in the $27ish range.
00 Saab 9-5 SE V6, 30k, MSRP $40, now running in the $16/$17 range.
Now, thats the reason why I always feel buying used is a safer then buying new, but's thats just my humble, stupid opinion. So anyway, lets all get back to page 6, "Jack knives nipping at your nose" ...
.... Ok, lets see if I can catch up .. these are nice vehicles, the miles are ok, it's an Si ...
There is nothing wrong with your TV set, $14 is a fair asking price -- but -- it's a coupe and it's a handshaker, that dwindles the buying market by 75%++ ..
Buyers love these vehicles, but they don't like all those pedals, shifter motion, stuffing those Xmas gifts in the back seat and trying to get Uncle Buck out after he has had a little too much Vodka and Egg Nog.
2 out 10 buyers might show an interest, mostly the younger folk, so you gotta be patient, and very reasonable in the "negotiations", your competition is tuff.
I hope this helps .. and don't yell at me, I had a little too much Nog myself.
.... These are nice vehicles, I have driven a bunch. It's a SLT, so I'm sure it has all the goodies, the 2wd in Ol' Miss won't hurt you ... now, it's got some big miles going for it and hi miles are not your friend.
So let's say it looks, drives and feels like 30k, deep in rubber, no drive by's, no battles with the blue hairs at the Mall, no chemistry experiments in the interior - trade side, you should be seeing the hi $11's, low $12's.
.... You didn't leave me much info here .. color, area, options ..
So I will just wing it .. if it's a clean one, lookin' 99ish, service is 95%, interior is still strong, waaay deep in sneakers -- ya know, just a real nice vehicle that folks say "gheeez, is this a 98 or a 99", then you should be lookin' around the $5's on a trade .. if it needs stuff and it's a re-paint, start deducting.
It's the right color, so you got that going for ya .. 1,2,3 packs, seems like all the stuff .. miles here are gonna be a tuffy, lot's of nice ones with 9/12/15k rolling around ..
Well you know the drill, puuuuurfect, in the wrapper stuff, seats have been hovered in, service is 100%, new sneakers yesterday, no-paint work, yatty yatty yatty ..
$34ish seems to be the going figure with all those miles, might see $35 with the right barometric pressure and the right NE alignment with Neptune in the evening sky at 7:41pm GMT ..
Terry - in your recent auction experience, which car makes/models are holding up the best despite the recent downturn? I'm curious where I could minimize depreciation on my next car purchase (not truck).
Wondering what will happen on Camaros, in particular. Have an '02, am a "trade-in before warranty is out" type, and hoping I'll be at breakeven or better at that point. I figure by spring '05, I'll be pushing 36k miles and will owe 13-14K by then. (It's a black-on-black, loaded (leather, chrome, t-top), Hurst 6-speed. Wrong color for market (Vegas!) Do you figure there'll be a mullet for every F-bod, or am I going to have to wait it out longer? :-)
That's why when I bought my last car, I wanted something larger and had the options I wanted, as I knew they depreciate like crazy. Hence, I was going to keep it 10 years. I also purchased a bumper to bumper warranty out to 100,000 miles just to be safe, and therefore force me to keep the car that long.
The 2000 Intrepid R/T I have I purchased for $6,400 off of list price - $3000 rebate, $3000 discount, $400 grad school rebate. Even with that, I estimate I've lost at least $8,400 in depreciation in 26 months, and I have only 30,000 miles on it. My girlfriends Corolla has lost about $6,400 in 33 months; very few new cars are immune.
Hey, it's fast with the 3.5 liter, handles great, looks good and is roomy. Wish it had leather, got better gas mileage, and had less road noise, but it is rock solid at 90 mph. Something new would really not be any better, just newer. If you get one that is well put together, it is a great car to drive.
If I sold now, I've lost about $325 a month in depreciation. Holding ten years drops that to $158 a month, assuming it is worth $1,000 then.
Automobiles are a very expensive hobby, so buy what you like and keep it.
.......because my family is starting to outgrow it. I'd like to get a minivan, but I'm not paying to sell my Intrepid, or going upsidedown on a trade-in to get one. There used to be a time when a trade-in was a down payment towards the purchase of a new vehicle. That isn't the case anymore. Now days, vehicles are so expensive that if you buy one, you have car payments as high as house payments. The only way to get the payments down to where I can afford them is to lease, and then you end up being screwed in the end like I am now. They need to get the pricing back down to a normal level so the average consumer can afford to buy a new car again.
I didn't think I was being too out of line but since we are impatient we are going to drop the price to $13,000 in the autotrader and if we get no bites after that we will put it on ebay with a $12,500 reserve.
.... If I have read your original post correctly, this is a lease right.?
I think this is the reason why you are having some difficulty with it .. you are over the miles limit, and it's the extra money at the end, you perhaps don't like. Kinda keep in mind, you either pay up front in a bigger payment, or you pay at the end for the miles - no matter what, you pay.
Also, this is a car buying society .. when I was a kid, my dad use to buy a new Caddy EVERY year for around $4/$5,000 and his vehicle, those days are looong over. Nowadays is not unusual to see a 26 yr old in a $40+ 330 Bimmer or a $30 grand Mustang GT ~ we are, what we wear. Actually compared to the 50/60's, vehicle payments are lower in percentage vs income, but thats a whole different subject matter ..
You my friend, need to take a deep breath, relax, and have a nice Holiday Season, it's just a car ...
.... Good move on the Autotrader .. I have a feeling if it goes to Ebay, you "might" see that mid $13 figure, ya never know .. but let me know and good luck .!
..... That's kind of a tuffy to answer, it's hard to figure the market for the next 3/6 months, let alone 36 months.
I always say - "buy and drive what you like" .. Mazda's are good vehicles, it's their own marketing that has stifled them - I hope the "6" does well ...
I happen to be one of those quirky few control freaks who like to drive a stick shift.
Granted, that a stick is about $800-$1000 less than an automatic. At resale time, how much less than an auto is it going to go for? Do you think the difference will be less or greater than the price of the automatic transmission?
It isn't just the miles that are screwing me, I'm screwed no matter what I do. I think we've already covered why I'm screwed by trading in or turning it in after the lease, but it isn't much better if I sell it outright. Unless I can talk the lease company down on my buyout price, the buyout would be $7700. Add sales tax, and it's roughly $8200. If I can only sell it for $7K, and according to what you've told me, even that number is high, I'm still looking at $1200 coming out of my pocket just to sell this car. That's ridiculous! I don't care what make of car it is, or that I've made 5 years worth of lease payments instead of purchase payments, I should still have SOME equity in this vehicle by now. I shouldn't have to make payments on any vehicle, lease or no lease, for 10 years just to get some equity in it.
....... Ok, ok settle down and take a deep breath -- breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out .. better.?
Let's see if you can tighten up on this .. call Chrysler lease - NOT the dealer. A lot of times, especially with the end of the year here and January lurking around the corner the lease co. will negotiate with you - do Not talk with the nice folks that answer the phone, they are a potpourri of info, but they have no horsepower for a decision .. you need to be in touch with the district or regional Mgr.
They know that vehicle won't do $7,7/$6,6/$5,5 at the auction, so they may hit you at $7 or even $6, I don't know. - Don't tell them the mileage.! Do this in a nice, quiet, relaxed manor and things may work out --- Now, go to bed.!
...... Hi Lou .. there is nothing wrong with handshakers, personally I like em' and drive em', but I have options. If I want to take an SUV, a larger 4 dr sedan, a Van, I can. But, that's me ...
Take the average household with a few kids - Mom can't drive, watch the kids, talk on the phone, make sure the dog isn't trying to bite the folks in the next vehicle and shift gears at the same time .. Dad, he can't read the paper, yak to his bookie, shift gears without getting lost .l.o.l.
Basically, it has come to point of great convenience, auto's are as quick, if not quicker, the gas mileage is as good and the reliability speaks for itself .. so what's all that mean.?
The market gets diminished by 75/80+% - It means that most handshakers will sell at a very slow pace, it means that if you have one, you need to sell it at least $1,000/$3,000 less than it's automatic counterpart, plus the extra time it takes to sell it ..
The hard part is finding the right buyer, now they may have looked at 4/5 vehicles and truly love yours, but- on the ride home, comes the questions like, what about when we have to pick-up Uncle Buck, or the ride through the hills, or who's going to drive that puppy through all those parking lot's and all that stop and go traffic etc, etc. .. the same goes for coupes.
..... The miles are low for the year, it's an SE, 4x4, boards, probably a nice vehicle .. if it has no paint work, service is all there, no weird stuff in the interior or the exterior, then you should be seeing the ultra high $7's, maybe the low $8's if it's a cream puff ...
Not to disagree with Terry -- good heavens, what would happen to me then??? -- but I think I think I think it's very tricky and car-dependent. When I buy a new car, one of the things I think about is resale, in terms of "Why would someone buy this from me in 2/5/8 years"? It's worked for me. This area (Mid-MI) is probably more anti-stick than anywhere else in the U.S., just based on what I see in the market vs. what I hear about other places. VERY conservative, very domestic. I have NEVER seen a Chevy Silverado (the new kind, '98+) with any kind of a stick shift. Not on a lot (and I've looked), not on GM BuyPower. NEVER. There are 5 Pontiac dealers in a 40-mile radius here, with a combined inventory of maybe 60 base Vibes. Not a ONE of them is a stick (BuyPower search).
At the same time, within the last year, I've sold a '97 Nissan truck and a '98 Prizm, both for good money (Thank you Terry!), and quickly. And both were stick shifts. And both were cheap to buy new, and therefore, in the used market, they were attractive on the grounds that they were competing for the nice autos that were... 2-3 years older. The Prizm went to a 6'4" kid without a job going out to Minneapolis looking for work... it had 24k miles, no pwr equipment (but CD, air), and he had the devil of a time driving a stick .. arrghghh. It had been a while. But, for $7 and change, what else was he going to buy? I knew the car was for him as soon as he told me his situation, and he knew it, too. If it had been a loaded LSi for $2 more, he would have had a lot of options... The truck was a similar deal. When the car is nice, clean, one-owner, and fairly inexpensive, it works.
You see what I'm driving at with this long-winded post: If you can put together a manual-tranny car that makes some sense, from a value perspective (see above), or 'cuz it's a Miata, or because it's a VW TDI, and you really want to max out mpg, then I think it'll be easy to sell. Just don't buy a top-of-the line Honda CRV EX with leather (do they make that?) and all the junk, and then have it be a stick, you'll get eaten alive. Oh yeah, and sell it yourself. The dealer REALLY doesn't want a manual-tranny car on the lot most times.
Rationalizing my own manual-tranny purchases, I remain -Mathias
..... Forgetting to tell you is - before he could drive a handshaker, he couldn't lift 40lbs with his right arm ..
Now after driving a manual and shifting 19,492 times, he is now the International German, Right handed weight lifting Champion, he broke a world record last month with a lift of 755lbs, beating out the Australian champion since 96 .. we are very proud of Mathias ~~~ but, he still can't open up a bag of peanuts with his left arm. hehehehe.
can't "drive, watch the kids, talk on the phone, make sure the dog isn't trying to bite the folks in the next vehicle and shift gears at the same time .."
All of the kids on my XC team are encouraging me to get a stick. None of them can drive a stick, though. I don't know what it means, but at least young drivers aren't all anti-stick.
Terry, what do you think about this one? Toledo, Ohio area (it's always cloudy and 25 degrees it seems - Paradise!) '97 LHS - 77k miles, tranny seems OK, A/C too, silver, moonroof, alloys, leather(I think that's standard), has 2 good and 2 iffy tires. In good condition with a fixable ding or two. Black Book says rough is $2200, average $3550. NADA says trade-in $6250 (?!), loan value $5625
Geez, I got lost in the shuffle (and this used to be a nice quiet little bar...).
1999 Miata, 81K, 5 speed (of course), silver with tan top/leather, bose, basically a loaded base model. Also has a matching hardtop, not that I care (something to Ebay off I guess). In chilly NJ.
What's reasonable on this puppy, from a small used car dealer? I assume he will sit on it until the tulips bloom if he has to, but who knows.
Also, same car in black with 34K, no hardtop, private sale: how much difference for the miles?
Is your Intrepid a lease? If so, when is the lease up? How many miles were you allowed in the lease?
I'm a bit confused here, because I would have thought with a lease, you wouldn't care how much the car is worth...you simply give it back to Chrysler at the end, pay for excess miles, and off you go. Is this not the case? I must be missing something.......
Here's the deal. It's a 5 year lease which expires in June 03. The mileage limit is 60K. The car now has 62K, and I estimate I'll have around 68 to 70K at lease's end. At $.15 per mile over 60K, I could owe up to $1500 just in mileage fees. Figure in the minor door dings and scratches and I'm looking at roughly owing 2 grand to turn this car in. This is of course based on the assumption the actual value of the car will be the same as its residule value of $7700. Now if the actual value is determined to be a lot less than the residule, say like somewhere in the 5's, then I'd be able to turn it in, and it would cost me very little to nothing.
Here's what I'll probably end up doing. A couple of weeks before my lease expires, I'll take the car to whomever looks at them to determine what they're worth. Once I find out its actual value, then I can make a better decision on what to do with it. If it's determined that the car is worth close to the residule value, I'll buy it out from the lease company. If it ends up being around a grand less than the residule, I'll see if I can get the lease company to come down on the buyout price to match what it's worth. If it ends up being worth like 2 grand less, I'll just turn it in.
I agree with Steine and his comments on purchasing a car. I have seen a number of posts that said essentially "buy what you like and keep it." Probably the best advice for an asset that depreciates as bad as a car.
Steine sounds a lot like me: I like cars, want to be able to get out of them without losing a ton of money and enjoy the ride. He hit the spot on what kinds of cars to buy with a stick vs an automatic. I watch the used car sales/ads like most guys memorize sports trivia (probably why I like this board so much!) If you are going to buy a car with a stick, be prepared to take the hit at trade-in, unless its the type of car that people WANT to shift (sports cars, mostly) An SUV with a 5-speed is probably the ultimate kiss of death, IMHO. Likewise for any kind of fouir-door family car.
The addage I use for buying cars and houses is "I buy 'em for the day I sell 'em." Yes, I make sure I enjoy them along the way, but I also typically make good judgement calls to make sure they have the options that make them marketable down the road. That has worked well for me thus far. In cars, that means bellying up to the bar and getting more option-loaded cars in the right color and treating them right. Down the road your car with the extras will appeal to someone who wants the financial benefit of a used car but doesn't want to sacrifice the goodies.
Just my 2 cents I thought I would toss in.... Keith
At least I think it is. He doesn't personally dislike green vehicles or sedans with manuals (well maybe...) but when they show up at auction none of the experienced buyers will take 'em unless the discount is too big too ignore. Those units MIGHT be the bees knees to the chartrues loving high economy driver, but odds are it'll sit on the lot longer than most dealers are willing to have their money tied up...
Your first problem was the 5 yr lease. Never do that again. That is what is killing you if you would have took the $100 more a month and bought it over the same time period you would owe nothing and have equity. Sorry but that is the truth. There are no free lunches you pay up front or on the back end. that is why if you lease make sure you will not be over miles even in a worse case scenario. Sorry.
Comments
1999, black/tan/tan, leather bose and the goddies, 5 speed, 34K. Private sale, asking 12.4K
1999, silver/tan/tan, leather bose etc., matching hardtop (something to sell on Ebay IMHO), small used car dealer (good rep), asking 11,900 or so.
Miles don't bother me (if the price is adjusted accordingly), but what do you think is real world on both of these puppies, assuming both are jam-up?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I understand the mileage part -but- it's a domestic, it's a "base" Intrepid, no leather, no tunes, no chromes, except for the slider it's has about -0- for options 3.2 V6.? .. I'm not knocking Intrepids cuz' I buy alot of them and I do like em'...
The bad news is, there is a Kazillion of them out there, any dealer can buy a 98 ES with 35/45k, the big V6, leather, Infinity, slider, keyless, hi end wheels, all the stuff for the $5's at any auction .. so what can yours be worth .?
If you live by those books, you will die by those books .. my info comes from watching about 20 auctions a month, and try to be at least at 6 of them, so I literally see 15/20,000 vehicles a month . All do respect, I don't follow those flippin book things, if I did, I would be out of biz babe. See if one those sites or books will cut you a reader for all that $$.l.o.l...
Now, you might get Xtra lucky, it's "tumbleweed time" and you might find a dealer to drop $4,5, and that my friend would be the "whole como Se' yama ~ and the bag of chips" .. if $7,7 is the pay-off, give it a big kiss and say by by too it.
But seriously, good luck and Happy Holidays.!
Terry.
Sounds like you're in a bad deal, and Pappa Terry's reality ain't music to your ears. Life's a witch, and then you Lease.
There's a couple reasons why I think this car is worth more. It's only 5 years old, and no vehicle, not even Korean built vehicles, drop in value from 22K, to 3 or 4K in that short of a time period. Secondly, this is not an ES model, but it's not bare bones either. It has the following options, CD player, power seat, power moon roof, and ABS brakes. Lastley, I probably wouldn't consider trading it in because of the obvious loss I would take, and I've noticed that most of the 98's listed for sale in our local paper are listed between 7.5 K and 9K. According to that, it looks like the KBB and NADA numbers are closer to it's actual value.
Second, you might see other similiar cars in your area advertise for more. But are they really the same? Mileage, color, equipment level, condition of the car? etc. And are they really selling at that price? One can always ask for the moon, but can they get it? There's usually a 2k diference between trade in price and sales price also.
Good luck.
Curious if the "6" will do better than the 626 Resale wise. Sat in one Saturday, "Best Buy for the Buck". $18,520 plus dest.
By the way mine would be 5 speed manual base "i" model ( 4 cyl.), no options, comes equipped with every option an '03 Accord EX has, for less than a LX! Oh well maybe it doesn't have alloys or a Moonroof, but they match otherwise.
-Jason
In the end it doesn't really matter. It's the DIFFERENCE between purchase price and trade-in that counts and makes or breaks the deal.
That's the real world.
You have to ask yourself this question. If Terry is seeing similar cars (and he sees plenty of them weekly), with more options and half the miles at an auction for x price... why would a dealer offer you more than that price if they can buy the car with more options and lower miles at an auction next weekend?
Good luck.
Also, the market has tanked in a major way since the summer, and about time, too... used cars have been way pricey vs. new for the last few years.
Personally, I've sold two cars on the street in the last 18 months, both times for within a couple $100 of what Terry was telling me. On the '98 Prizm, a Chevy dealer offered me EXACTLY the $6k that the T-man said it was worth, and I got $7,300 from some kid (I was supposed to shoot for $8 and take $7,5).
Nissan truck this past summer; got $5,700 for it, and again, only one serious buyer... so I wasn't pricing them too low or anything.
I just sold (no I'm not a dealer...just redid our "fleet") a '92 Aerostar Terry thought should bring $2+. The tranny gave trouble (I fixed it, but still), the AC blew out, and the speedo started bouncing around. I had it sold by noon the first day the ad was out, for the $950 asking price. So I coulda gotten more, probably, but the car really wasn't worth more in my opinion; I'm not out to screw people either. So without the problems, the $2 would have been right on.
And yes, Virginia, the "books" were all higher on these cars, except Edmund's private-sale TMV, which was actually pretty close, both times. But see above, something's happened since September.
The books go completely nuts if the miles are nonstandard. High-mile Camry? not so good. Hi-mile Dodge? Run don't walk...
Hope this makes some sense. My next car, methinks, will be bought new... unless the market drops some more....
-Mathias
East Lansing, MI
Here is something that may make you feel better...
1998 Ford Taurus SHO 62k miles--
Original MSRP-- 28,920
Current Trade-- ~low 5,0
Current Retail- ~mid 6,0
1998 Chevy Lumina LTZ 62k miles--
Original MSRP-- 19,750
Current Trade-- ~low 3,0
Current Retail- ~low 5,0
Now something that may make you sick...
1998 Honda Accord EX V6
Original MSRP-- 24,150
Current Trade-- ~low 11,0
Current Retail--~mid 13,0
Just to give ya both sides of the picture... it actually is not all that uncommon for domestics to lose 50-60% of their value in 4-5 years. Factor in the lack of demand for used vehicles due to manufacturer rebates, incentives, 0% financing, etc, you can get a brand new Intrepid for about 19k with the $1500 rebate then factor in the benefit of 0% etc.
Its a nice little car, average miles (99k), sunroof, in good shape sans the fender and runs like a 15k car. That being said you can see how KBB and Nada and black book or whatever your poison is can hurt or work for you. I saw this many times while working in car sales.
My advise to anyone is sell it on your own and don't trade if you are upside down, it only gets worse from there. Also, domestic models for the most part depreciate much worse than most imports. If you are looking for resale buy a honda or toyota. Now stepping down from my soap box.
About the comment of KBB and NADA being so much different, well actually they're both within a few hundred bucks of each other on my car.
It's not just the used car market that's in a slump, it's hitting new cars sales as well. Why do you think there are so many cash back, and 0% financing deals out there? I would think the economy being bad would force even more people to buy used, keeping used prices high. So much for logic.
I guess all I can do is try to sell my car and see what happens. If I can get a fair price for it, I'll sell it. If not, I'll keep it for a while longer. Sooner or later, it's depreciation has got to level off to a point where it's value is greater than what I owe on it. It can't depreciate at its current rate forever.
TIA
Easy on the refresh button!
;-)
I did my duty last election and voted twice like any good chicagoian at the time. Should have came down to florida with you and bill and voted a couple more lol
Bottgers,
Listen man I feel your pain and will never buy another new DC product they are great if you buy them used and drive them to death but if you like to switch vehicles like I do they are a death warrant. I have a 300M that I bought 16 months ago that has depreciated from a sticker of 31.8k all the way to 15k. I'm trying to pay it off as quick as possible so I can "Cut it from the heard" as Terry says. The books are garbage. I look at it this way, I'm in the IT biz I would rather have a seasoned person give me advice than some rookie with a cert in their back pocket. Same in the car biz the guides are nice but I rather talk to someone who "sees" 20k+ vehicles a month.
Terry you do a crack up job here keep it up!
DC vehicles tend to depreciate fairly quickly due to the quality of the vehicles. I have several DC vehicles in my fleet and once they get past 70k, they start to have reliability issues, especially in the electronics.
Right now with all of the incentives, the used car market is very weak. If you own any vehicle that are not very popular, you will be hard pressed to get anything close to the "book" price. If your model is an "orphan", it is even worse.
Last year, I had to unload a 94 Mercury Topaz, V6. It was in immaculate condition. Edmunds said the car was worth $4500. My brother and I laughed and said $3000 max. It took us about 3 weeks to sell it at $2800.
What is the lesson in all of this? 1) Buy used and let the original owner eat all of the depreciation or 2) Keep a car until the wheels fall off. In either case the rapid depreciation does not affect you much.
Other than the recent sale, I sell all my cars for $500/750/1000 - after they have 150k+ miles and I decide that it is time for a newer one.
You sound like a friggin' customer .. "I can't believe my vehicle depreciates" -- unless you have a Duesenburg, Cord or a Cobra sittin' around, all vehicles go south.
Just so you don't feel this is just a "you thing", here is some figures to lighten up your heart during this "Holiday Season".
Just going back 2 years, 00, 30k, all the stuff, MSRP, Wholesale:
00 Jag 4.0 S type, 30k, MSRP $51ish, now doing $25ish at the block.
00 Saturn LS2 4 dr, 30k, MSRP $23ish, now doing the $8's
00 Land Cruiser Disc 2, 30k, MSRP $36ish, now doing $18ish at the auctions.
00 Lincoln LS, V8, 30k, MSRP $39ish, now doing in the $17/$18 range.
00 MB E320, 30k, all the stuff, MSRP $53ish, now doing in the $27ish range.
00 Saab 9-5 SE V6, 30k, MSRP $40, now running in the $16/$17 range.
Now, thats the reason why I always feel buying used is a safer then buying new, but's thats just my humble, stupid opinion. So anyway, lets all get back to page 6, "Jack knives nipping at your nose" ...
Terry :-))
There is nothing wrong with your TV set, $14 is a fair asking price -- but -- it's a coupe and it's a handshaker, that dwindles the buying market by 75%++ ..
Buyers love these vehicles, but they don't like all those pedals, shifter motion, stuffing those Xmas gifts in the back seat and trying to get Uncle Buck out after he has had a little too much Vodka and Egg Nog.
2 out 10 buyers might show an interest, mostly the younger folk, so you gotta be patient, and very reasonable in the "negotiations", your competition is tuff.
I hope this helps .. and don't yell at me, I had a little too much Nog myself.
Terry.
So let's say it looks, drives and feels like 30k, deep in rubber, no drive by's, no battles with the blue hairs at the Mall, no chemistry experiments in the interior - trade side, you should be seeing the hi $11's, low $12's.
Good luck and let me know ...
Terry.
So I will just wing it .. if it's a clean one, lookin' 99ish, service is 95%, interior is still strong, waaay deep in sneakers -- ya know, just a real nice vehicle that folks say "gheeez, is this a 98 or a 99", then you should be lookin' around the $5's on a trade .. if it needs stuff and it's a re-paint, start deducting.
Terry.
It's the right color, so you got that going for ya .. 1,2,3 packs, seems like all the stuff .. miles here are gonna be a tuffy, lot's of nice ones with 9/12/15k rolling around ..
Well you know the drill, puuuuurfect, in the wrapper stuff, seats have been hovered in, service is 100%, new sneakers yesterday, no-paint work, yatty yatty yatty ..
$34ish seems to be the going figure with all those miles, might see $35 with the right barometric pressure and the right NE alignment with Neptune in the evening sky at 7:41pm GMT ..
Terry :-)
Thanks for performing this service here.
Bill was kind enough to get us started and many thanks to you for continuing...
Curious if the "6" will do better than the 626 Resale wise. Sat in one Saturday, "Best Buy for the Buck". $18,520 MSRP plus dest.
By the way mine would be 5 speed manual base "i" model ( 4 cyl.), no options.
Sooooo....
Thanks..
The 2000 Intrepid R/T I have I purchased for $6,400 off of list price - $3000 rebate, $3000 discount, $400 grad school rebate. Even with that, I estimate I've lost at least $8,400 in depreciation in 26 months, and I have only 30,000 miles on it. My girlfriends Corolla has lost about $6,400 in 33 months; very few new cars are immune.
Hey, it's fast with the 3.5 liter, handles great, looks good and is roomy. Wish it had leather, got better gas mileage, and had less road noise, but it is rock solid at 90 mph. Something new would really not be any better, just newer. If you get one that is well put together, it is a great car to drive.
If I sold now, I've lost about $325 a month in depreciation. Holding ten years drops that to $158 a month, assuming it is worth $1,000 then.
Automobiles are a very expensive hobby, so buy what you like and keep it.
I think this is the reason why you are having some difficulty with it .. you are over the miles limit, and it's the extra money at the end, you perhaps don't like. Kinda keep in mind, you either pay up front in a bigger payment, or you pay at the end for the miles - no matter what, you pay.
Also, this is a car buying society .. when I was a kid, my dad use to buy a new Caddy EVERY year for around $4/$5,000 and his vehicle, those days are looong over. Nowadays is not unusual to see a 26 yr old in a $40+ 330 Bimmer or a $30 grand Mustang GT ~ we are, what we wear. Actually compared to the 50/60's, vehicle payments are lower in percentage vs income, but thats a whole different subject matter ..
You my friend, need to take a deep breath, relax, and have a nice Holiday Season, it's just a car ...
Terry :-)
Terry.
I always say - "buy and drive what you like" .. Mazda's are good vehicles, it's their own marketing that has stifled them - I hope the "6" does well ...
Terry.
I happen to be one of those quirky few control freaks who like to drive a stick shift.
Granted, that a stick is about $800-$1000 less than an automatic. At resale time, how much less than an auto is it going to go for? Do you think the difference will be less or greater than the price of the automatic transmission?
Thanks!
- Lou
Let's see if you can tighten up on this .. call Chrysler lease - NOT the dealer. A lot of times, especially with the end of the year here and January lurking around the corner the lease co. will negotiate with you - do Not talk with the nice folks that answer the phone, they are a potpourri of info, but they have no horsepower for a decision .. you need to be in touch with the district or regional Mgr.
They know that vehicle won't do $7,7/$6,6/$5,5 at the auction, so they may hit you at $7 or even $6, I don't know. - Don't tell them the mileage.! Do this in a nice, quiet, relaxed manor and things may work out --- Now, go to bed.!
Terry.
Take the average household with a few kids - Mom can't drive, watch the kids, talk on the phone, make sure the dog isn't trying to bite the folks in the next vehicle and shift gears at the same time .. Dad, he can't read the paper, yak to his bookie, shift gears without getting lost .l.o.l.
Basically, it has come to point of great convenience, auto's are as quick, if not quicker, the gas mileage is as good and the reliability speaks for itself .. so what's all that mean.?
The market gets diminished by 75/80+% - It means that most handshakers will sell at a very slow pace, it means that if you have one, you need to sell it at least $1,000/$3,000 less than it's automatic counterpart, plus the extra time it takes to sell it ..
The hard part is finding the right buyer, now they may have looked at 4/5 vehicles and truly love yours, but- on the ride home, comes the questions like, what about when we have to pick-up Uncle Buck, or the ride through the hills, or who's going to drive that puppy through all those parking lot's and all that stop and go traffic etc, etc. .. the same goes for coupes.
I hope this makes sense ...
Terry.
I hope this helps ...
Terry.
When I buy a new car, one of the things I think about is resale, in terms of "Why would someone buy this from me in 2/5/8 years"?
It's worked for me. This area (Mid-MI) is probably more anti-stick than anywhere else in the U.S., just based on what I see in the market vs. what I hear about other places. VERY conservative, very domestic. I have NEVER seen a Chevy Silverado (the new kind, '98+) with any kind of a stick shift. Not on a lot (and I've looked), not on GM BuyPower. NEVER. There are 5 Pontiac dealers in a 40-mile radius here, with a combined inventory of maybe 60 base Vibes. Not a ONE of them is a stick (BuyPower search).
At the same time, within the last year, I've sold a '97 Nissan truck and a '98 Prizm, both for good money (Thank you Terry!), and quickly. And both were stick shifts. And both were cheap to buy new, and therefore, in the used market, they were attractive on the grounds that they were competing for the nice autos that were... 2-3 years older. The Prizm went to a 6'4" kid without a job going out to Minneapolis looking for work... it had 24k miles, no pwr equipment (but CD, air), and he had the devil of a time driving a stick .. arrghghh. It had been a while. But, for $7 and change, what else was he going to buy? I knew the car was for him as soon as he told me his situation, and he knew it, too. If it had been a loaded LSi for $2 more, he would have had a lot of options... The truck was a similar deal. When the car is nice, clean, one-owner, and fairly inexpensive, it works.
You see what I'm driving at with this long-winded post: If you can put together a manual-tranny car that makes some sense, from a value perspective (see above), or 'cuz it's a Miata, or because it's a VW TDI, and you really want to max out mpg, then I think it'll be easy to sell. Just don't buy a top-of-the line Honda CRV EX with leather (do they make that?) and all the junk, and then have it be a stick, you'll get eaten alive. Oh yeah, and sell it yourself. The dealer REALLY doesn't want a manual-tranny car on the lot most times.
Rationalizing my own manual-tranny purchases,
I remain
-Mathias
Now after driving a manual and shifting 19,492 times, he is now the International German, Right handed weight lifting Champion, he broke a world record last month with a lift of 755lbs, beating out the Australian champion since 96 .. we are very proud of Mathias ~~~ but, he still can't open up a bag of peanuts with his left arm. hehehehe.
Terry ;-))
All of the kids on my XC team are encouraging me to get a stick. None of them can drive a stick, though. I don't know what it means, but at least young drivers aren't all anti-stick.
Thanks for the info!
- Lou
1999 Miata, 81K, 5 speed (of course), silver with tan top/leather, bose, basically a loaded base model. Also has a matching hardtop, not that I care (something to Ebay off I guess). In chilly NJ.
What's reasonable on this puppy, from a small used car dealer? I assume he will sit on it until the tulips bloom if he has to, but who knows.
Also, same car in black with 34K, no hardtop, private sale: how much difference for the miles?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'm a bit confused here, because I would have thought with a lease, you wouldn't care how much the car is worth...you simply give it back to Chrysler at the end, pay for excess miles, and off you go. Is this not the case? I must be missing something.......
Here's what I'll probably end up doing. A couple of weeks before my lease expires, I'll take the car to whomever looks at them to determine what they're worth. Once I find out its actual value, then I can make a better decision on what to do with it. If it's determined that the car is worth close to the residule value, I'll buy it out from the lease company. If it ends up being around a grand less than the residule, I'll see if I can get the lease company to come down on the buyout price to match what it's worth. If it ends up being worth like 2 grand less, I'll just turn it in.
Steine sounds a lot like me: I like cars, want to be able to get out of them without losing a ton of money and enjoy the ride. He hit the spot on what kinds of cars to buy with a stick vs an automatic. I watch the used car sales/ads like most guys memorize sports trivia (probably why I like this board so much!) If you are going to buy a car with a stick, be prepared to take the hit at trade-in, unless its the type of car that people WANT to shift (sports cars, mostly) An SUV with a 5-speed is probably the ultimate kiss of death, IMHO. Likewise for any kind of fouir-door family car.
The addage I use for buying cars and houses is "I buy 'em for the day I sell 'em." Yes, I make sure I enjoy them along the way, but I also typically make good judgement calls to make sure they have the options that make them marketable down the road. That has worked well for me thus far. In cars, that means bellying up to the bar and getting more option-loaded cars in the right color and treating them right. Down the road your car with the extras will appeal to someone who wants the financial benefit of a used car but doesn't want to sacrifice the goodies.
Just my 2 cents I thought I would toss in.... Keith