Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

driftracer

'30s and '40s, because people were getting hurt and killed on the job and were being worked into the ground for pennies. Unions have outlived their usefulness and now exist to increase consumer prices and interrupt services while their members see a few advantages and their bosses become millionaires, on the wallets of the Amercan taxpayer and consumer.

I have no respect for an institution like that.

bowke28

here in louisville, we have 2 ford plants (explorer and super duty trucks). a co-worker of mine went there on a UAW-approved solicitation trip to pass out business cards and fliers.

his flier had the letterhead for both the ford and nissan dealers that we have.

later that day, the UAW local president threatened to boycott our dealership, saying that we should get rid of our nissan franchise "or else".

i dont know what the owner said, but they still come here to buy cars....

maybe they found out how many of their employees have bought nissans?

kyfdx

Unions are the American way.. Try to get the most payment for the work you do.. I don't think there is one among us, who would turn down a pay raise. I'm sure I make possibly double what some others make that do the same job I do.. and I'm sure there is a union member doing my job making 20-30% more than me.

That said, I don't like the mentality, and I'm happy I don't work in a union shop. But, I'm glad when the union guys get a raise, because a rising tide lifts all ships, and that means my pay will be going up also, eventually.

regards,
kyfdx

bowke28

except the ones that are tied down.

kyfdx

Then, cast off!! No one is stuck where they are.

robr2

Automotive News back in 1994 where a senior forklift operater at a GM plant made $42 an hour with 10 hours of overtime

Not here to defend the UAW, but keep in mind that the value of benefits are usually included in these hourly figures.

bowke28

no, they are not...

$42 per hour is $42 per hour. whether your bennies are included or not comes later.

kyfdx

I'm with robr2 here.. $42/hr for forklift operators ten years ago? I don't think so, either... But, I've been wrong before (don't tell my wife).

Unions like to advertise those wages, but they like to add in the value of their vacation days, and parking priveleges, etc.. and spread it over the actual hours worked.

driftracer

24 years, so it makes sense - after all, he was a SENIOR forklift operator.

I do a little better than that, but I'm not union, I pay my own taxes, and I don't have benefits.

dbgindy

Let's keep in mind that not all Unions are like the UAW.... :-)

bowke28

but most.

my dad was with IBEW for years, and he left them because of similar shenanigans as the stories from UAW.

they would actually PUBLISH a list of ways you could slow down production, and listed them as "safety requirements".

my dad still has it laminated to show all the "labor-friendly" people that come to his house.

suvshopper4

Despite past abuses, unions are becoming necessary again.

Many working people are really getting squeezed by the relentless bottom-line, ship the work overseas mentality. Add to this health care costs that are way out of reach for many.

It seems the job market could be headed back to the 1930s. Something's gotta give.

chenke

The focus on unions here only tells half of the story. Some unions may be crooked, and I'm sure that there are many, many examples to show how they waste time and money, but, on the other hand, I could give you many examples of managers trying to speed up production, reduce benefits, violently resisting unionization, etc. Let's face it, the past few years have given us plenty of stories about corporate corruption. The kind of money the forklift operator is making is peanuts compared to what greedy CEOs have wasted.

Going back to the early part of the 20th century, the history of this conflict is pretty gruesome, and each side has been guilty of abuses. That said, many of the basic labor "rights" we have today are the result of this struggle, and I hate to think what work would be like without it.

Some more specific points:

1. "The UAW themselves are killing the US auto industry." Uh, I think they are not alone in this endeavor.

2. The article that started this whole rant-fest was about China, and I agree that the movement of auto production to China could be a huge factor in the US auto industry in the next few years. GM is actually doing pretty well there---I believe I recently read they are spending X billions to increase production. I'd like to hear what others think about these possible changes.

Chris

isellhondas

Not a place to discuss unions!

kyfdx

I agree.. I apologize for furthering the discussion..

timadams

A discussion of possible Chinese imports belongs in the News and Views board, but I'm not too worried about it anytime soon. Look at how long it took for Korean cars to gain any sort of market share here, and they are still regarded as cheap, not-so-good cars. Of course, quality will be the primary factor when/if Chinese cars are imported, but it will be hard to have a quality image.

bowke28

"relentless bottom-line, ship the work overseas mentality."

dont you think that the cost of LABOR has contributed to this?

if i werew a business owner, and i could do 10% more work with 20% less people, and still increase the bottom line, i would in a heartbeat. would you want to have stock options in a company that wastes money on ineffective practices? i wouldnt.

jlawrence01

Personally, the issue is not the importation of full automobiles into the US, but the components. That is happening as we speak.

The technology (in regards to metal fabrication) in China is pretty darn close to the US.

kyfdx

If it is GM or Ford manufacturing in China and importing GM and Ford cars to the U.S., that will be perceived as different from importing Chinese brand cars.. That is where the comparison to Korea is different.

The Chinese Fords will sell just like the American Fords.

regards,
kyfdx

volvomax

I relauize that this isn't the proper place to bash unions(esp the UAW), but dealers(and their employees) do ahve a tremendous stake in the health and welfare of the US auto industry.
Now, I don't sell domestic cars, but Volvo's parent is Ford and whats good for Ford is good for Volvo in the long run.
The UAW is not solely responsible for the state of the domestic car industry, but they have to shoulder their fair share of the blame.
The non-union plants in the US prove that Americans can build excellent cars.
I still feel that somethings got to give here sooner or later.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

audia8q

you say..."dealers(and their employees) do ahve a tremendous stake in the health and welfare of the US auto industry."

I agree 100% but let me expand that even further...everyone in America has a tremendous stake in the good health of the US auto industry. There is no other industry that has such a strong impact on the US and global economy. The auto industry is the engine that drives the US economy.

grandtotal

There is no other industry that has such a strong impact on the US and global economy. The auto industry is the engine that drives the US economy.

The same is true of Canada. Sticking our heads in the sand is not a good response. Chinese manufactured Ford, GM, Honda etc will be perfectly acceptable from a quality standpoint and will allow manufacturers wider margins while allowing lower prices to the consumer. Anybody who works for an auto manufacturer is potentially in trouble here, as are all those whose livelihood depends on those people in any way (i.e. almost everybody in North America).

jasmith52

OK - here's a question for the experts about fees levied after a purchase.

I needed a daily driver car and so purchased a 1 year old (used) Mercury from a dealer in January. The verbally negotiated deal was that I give the dealer my trade plus a FIXED cash amount for the newer Mercury car.

When I saw the purchase papers to sign the papers showed the price of the newer car and other fees less the trade-in amount. One of the fees was for the California state registration amount.

I paid the agreed to difference in cash, left them my trade and took the new (1-year old ) car.

well I have been driving this car for the past 6 months and the car is fine, but just today I got a bill from the dealership. I guess there was some back-registration fees due on the car and the cost to register the car was $52 more than the original documents indicated. I already have a title to the car and the current registration.

My question to the experts is - Am I really responsible for the back fees ?? Should I just blow off this invoice or should I pay it. Should I pay the $52 or shouldn't I. If I were to pay the fees the amount that I paid would be greater than the amount that we agreed to.

I was never advised of any back registration fees due.

It's not so much the $52 as much as the principle of what we agreed to.

Any advice ??

isellhondas

They underestimated the fees and are charging you for the difference.

But...SIX MONTHS??

Sounds like a sloppy store. They really ought to eat that 52.00 but you do owe it.

kyfdx

I agree....if they are state registration fees, you owe them. I've had it happen twice.. but in the other direction. I've had two different dealers send me unsolicited checks for tax and registration overcharges. Once for $132 and once for $67. I'm pretty sure the second dealer was wrong, but they insisted the money was mine.

regards,
kyfdx

rroyce10

...... I like my money as much as the next guy, but 6 months .? .. thats like asking for gas money for a boat trip that happened 6 months ago ~ I would be a little embarrassed to ask because of my own stupidity ..........

                               Terry.

jasmith52

As I understand the registration situation, the car (the Mercury) was originally owned by Ford Motor Company as a program car. The dealership had a bit of a tough time getting the title over from Ford to my name. In California there are penalty fees associated with paying the registration late. The later the fees get paid the bigger and bigger the penalty becomes. I believe that some of the fees are related to Ford being slow in changing the title and then paying the registration fees. It took about four months to get a Californa title with my name on it. Had the registration been paid and applied in January the penalties (if any) would have been much smaller.

Also, there were some screw-ups in the registartion. The car originally had my address wrong so I had to go to the DMV to straighten out the registration. Note: I paid them $45 in documentation fees so that THEY could do this so that I wouldn't have to go to the DMV.

I just don't think that I should have to pay late fees because either the dealership or Ford didn't have their act together.

I have a California certificate of title and a registration card for this year both now in my name. What would happen if I didn't pay their invoice ?? They couldn't take back my title or registration could they ??

bowke28

i would call the DMV first, and see what the story is. if they say that you are clear, then call the dealer and tell them so. i would also ask them to take care of it themselves. if they dont, then split it, negotiate it, pay it all, whatever...just think of it as a fee to get them out of your life forever.

;-)

rroyce10

...... ** originally owned by Ford Motor Company as a program car. The dealership had a bit of a tough time getting the title over from Ford to my name. In California there are penalty fees associated with paying the registration late **

                 Thats about the same deal in Fl, the Carolina's, Ohio, Kansas, PA, Virginny, JawJa etc etc.com ... when you purchase a vehicle via a program run, auction, whatever, they have 4/6 weeks to drop the title too the dealer, most times Fomoco is usually Johnny on the Spot at the auctions, lease buys and programs, sometimes they will screw up and you have to wait 10/15/20ish days, and they are only human and they can make mistakes .. that being said, you can't sell the vehicle and/or flip the title and/or renew the registration because: no ticky - no washy ....

              What does that all mean.? .. you must have been a cash buyer or the lein holder would have been coughing up Hamsters a long time ago, unless Fomoco was the lender and they "squirreled" the title by mistake ..

              I buy lotsa vehicles from all over da' place, and the first thing I will monitor is "where's my friggin' title" - once or twice in a blue moon I will have to chase one, get a little psycho on the phone and threaten that the vehicle is going back to them, then all of a sudden, "wango tango" it appears .. I know their busy, I know they blow through 2,0/3,000 titles a week depending on the region, but the reality is: as a dealer, it's "My" responsibility to track the vehicle and the *paperwork* after I purchase it ... will I send a notice after 2/4/6 weeks.? .. sure, thats the flee's that come with the dog and I want the $$ for my paperwork, but I'm not going to come out of a coma 6 months later and say: "oh by the way" .. sorry Charley, dealers mistake .................

                Would you wait 6 months for the title for that new home from the mortgage company and pay their penalty ..?

                              Terry.

jasmith52

If I'm reading between the lines, you claim that I am not responsible for the extra fees after all ??

For what it's worth, it was a cash deal plus the paid for trade-in. there was no loan/lienholder involved.

Since I have a title showing that I own the car and a current registration can I just ignore the invoice ??

Are there any consequences to this approach ??

volvomax

Usually on the buyers order there is a section that states that the DMV fees are estimates only and that the customer is responsible for any differences.
Having said that, $52.00 is hardly worth the effort to try and collect.

719b

i saw an interesting ad on tv from a local nissan dealer today. the ad said "test drive one of our nissans in the next three days and we'll give you a certificate for $100 worth of gas".
the pros are constantly talking about tire kickers that waste their time... an offer like this will fill 3 days of wasted time.

acrafton

I think I know the answer but wanted to throw it out to the dealer folks and give a comment or two.

I recently was interested in a specific new vehicle, a crossover, that was being highly discounted by all dealers in town but one dealer was running an add for $9000 off MSRP, which is legitimate as this includes some $5500 from the mfgr, and $3500 reduction from the dealership. I went to the dealership close to my house where I have purchased other cars/vans, etc and said I found one on your web site that I want, will you match this price ($9K of MSRP). If so, I will buy it now. I was dealing with the salesman I have before and the sales mgr as well and they both knew me and that I wasn't shopping them, etc. If they said yes, I would buy. They said no, that there add was $8K off and the couldn't budge, that the vehicles were moving fast with an $8K discount and that is what they needed. I said fine and thanked them. The other dealer did not have what I wanted color/options, so I held off. This was around June 17th or so.

I get a call a few days later from the dealer that the mfg was offering a special deferred payment on this vehicle - no interest/payments for six months. I thanked my salesman but said that didn't change the price, and I was still interested and would buy at $9K of MSRP. Nope, they couldn't do it. I said fine, I understand you have your price, etc. All very friendly.

A few days later (around the 23 or so) I call a third dealer and point out the add and tell them I found one in their inventory that was equipped how I wanted it and would they match the $9K off. After trying to get me to come in first, they eventually said no - they would only go $7K off because they are 'flying' off the lot at $7K off. Fine - thank them and move on.

I then decide around the 26th or so that I don't really need a new car at this point and am glad I didn't buy. Keep in mind that until this date, say the 27th, I would buy in a heartbeat from any dealer that had the color/equip and $9K off MSRP.

This morning (the 30th) I get calls from BOTH dealers offering to sell me the exact same vehicle I wanted a week ago for the price I asked for a week ago - $9K off MSRP. The one that was 'flying' off the lot, etc. . .I told both salesmen that over the weekend I decided I didn't need/want one and did point out that had my offer been taken earlier they would have had a sale (not to rub it in just to point out my frustration).

Anyway, the question is - does one week really matter? I wasn't grinding, I was a buyer ready to buy (had history with them where I didn't grind them) on a vehicle that is obviusly not in high demand. Why would they not take my offer last week but now are jumping all over it? Is month end really that silly?

Adam

kyfdx

It isn't just the car business... It is the whole world of business. I am in the transportation industry, and it is unreal what people will do to ship by the end of the month.. Workers putting in 80 hours the last week of the month, then taking 3 hour coffee breaks the first week, because of nothing to do.

I would guess that the loss to the economy is in the billions of dollars each month, due to wasteful decisions based solely on "making the monthly numbers".

Okay..off my high horse.

regards,
kyfdx

driftracer

end of the month in the car business means a lot.

michaellno

Let's not forget that for many companies (including mine), today is also the end of the quarter, so quarterly goals are also trying to be met.

Adam, let me turn the question around (and no, I am not a salesman of any sort) -- what changed in your life in the past week to *not* buy the vehicle you wanted with the color/trim you requested for the $9K off MSRP?

And, if you don't mind my asking, what vehicle were you looking at?

jlawrence01

At least one of your large corporations in Cincinnati was notorious for shipping huge numbers of truckloads of products due 7-10 days out to the various shipping terminals around Cincinnati where they would await shipment to the customer a few days after month end. The SEC has been examining such practices but nothing will ever change.

Armed with that information, Acrafton, I would sure wait until about midday on the last day at quarter end before shopping for a car and see what you could do.

In 2000, I made an offer for a used car on July 5th and the offer was accepted ... on August 31st ...

driftracer

doesn't matter much in the car biz - I've never seen a quarterly based pay bonus - it's all about units per month, whether you're a green pea or the GM.

acrafton

I was looking at an 04 Pacifica. Nothing changed so much as I realized it was purchase that could be deferred for a few months or so, perhaps to the end of the year and move to an 05. I didn't need it but wanted it and just decided to wait.

Adam

michaellno

I'm not going to debate the point about dealer incentives and bonuses with you (I respect what you bring to these forums), but I do have a question.

Wouldn't the manufacturers offer incentives to the dealers to sell or deliver as many cars as possible within a quarter, to help with accounting and reporting financial results to Wall Street?

bowke28

i can answer that.

in any kind of sales, the micro-goal is better than the macro-goal. dealers do their books monthly, so any bonus money given quarterly would skew the numbers a bit. manufacturers know this.

michaellno

Got it ... that makes sense.

Thanks for the clarification.

Adam ... wow, the Pacifica is being discounted that much? For a brand new model? Hmmm, if I was in the market ....

... but I'm not (at the moment).

driftracer

rebates and things like that (manufacturer-generated) may be quarter-driven, but dealerships aren't. It's all about how many we have out this month, then you go from a hero to a zero -

I've always been hungry for a car deal and will work a deal into the ground to get it done (speaking from an F&I perspective) on any day of the month, but when that extra unit or a few extra bucks in total F&I income (or sales gross for sales managers) canmake the difference in a $1,000 bonus and no bonus, we try extra hard!

Micahell - is there an issue with my position on dealer incentives? I didn't realize I'd started a debate...I don't recall entering that topic - just wondering.

isellhondas

Wow! Talk about distressed merchandise!

Remember, cars that are hard to sell when new are even harder to sell later as used cars.

I would make very sure I REALLY want a car like that.

kyfdx

And, in the last few days of the month, Roadway would drop a trailer that we would fill with all of the orders due in the next two weeks.... But, we didn't have them come back and get the trailer until after the 5th of the next month. 60-70 hours that last week.. Then, sit around doing almost nothing until the 10th of the next month.. I'm sure there are thousands of places that do that.

michaellno

no, just poorly worded my initial response to you, i think.

My point was that as someone who is much more aware of the auto sales industry than myself, I wasn't going to contradict your point about dealer incentive programs to salesfolks being based on monthly sales goals.

Only once in my life has my paycheck been partially driven by revenue or profit goals .. and I hated it. In my next review, they asked if I wanted to continue on that profit sharing program or have my base income raised by something like 30% ... I took the latter.

driftracer

when the manufacturer bumps a rebate by $1000 (or $2k), but car sales are still monthly goal driven.

That said, the manufacturers have weird cutoff dates, in many cases, with rebates ending mid-month, doing nothing to take advantage of the month-end motivated dealership..

asafonov

his or her mind in general, but it sounds a little inconsiderate to "work" with 2 or 3 dealers and then drop the pursuit (to say nothing of wasting one's own time). I would never shop for a car unless I knew for sure I would be buying one within, say, next 4 or 6 weeks. Off my high horse...

bowke28

i was thinking the same thing...

a couple months down the road, you will pay THOUSANDS more for a 2005. they likely will not change the car, and you will have paid more for the same darn thing...sounds to me like a classic case of:

"cranial rectal insertion"

IOW, you may very well be outsmarting yourself.

also, if you wait too long, the original advertisement you used for your offers will be gone, and you will have lost money anyway. if you did that to me, i would charge you more now simply out of principle.

stevestein

"a couple months down the road, you will pay THOUSANDS more for a 2005. they likely will not change the car, and you will have paid more for the same darn thing..."
I can understand the heavy factory rebate for 2004s going away on a very soft selling car. What about a car that isn't in such a depressed state?
If a popular but readily available new model released in 2004 is going for $X off MSRP now, and the 2005 is the same car with little change, what would cause a big bump? I can perhaps see the need to build a price point until the 2004's are gone, but won't the 2005 settle into about the same price range after a few months? Even if the price is a bit higher, if you trade it in while it is still a late model car won't you get most of it back then?