Let me show you a vehicle that didn't qualify for lemon law:
It's a 1999 Mercury Cougar...
This vehicle has had 13 complaints/repair attempts involving the electrical system (the driver's power window motor failed while still in dealer stock (at 17 miles); noise when starting, removed transmission to replace flywheel and starter; “battery” warning light on, replaced alternator; instrument cluster/speedometer inoperative at times, noted at 22,584 miles, part on back order; replaced instrument cluster; sunroof would not open or close completely, replaced sunroof motor; instrument panel needles are erratic, car does not start at times, replaced battery; “airbag” light on, power door locks work erratically; instrument panel goes dark after hitting bumps, repaired wine connection; “ low washer fluid” warning light is on, replaced washer fluid sensor (failed)), 3 complaints/repair attempts involving the engine management system ("check engine" warning light activation, replaced left upstream oxygen sensor; noise in engine compartment, replaced air bypass valve; “check engine” warning lamp activated, replaced intake manifold valve linkage), and 3 complaints/repair attempts involving the engine assembly (engine oil leak, replaced oil pan gasket; replaced the front and rear motor mounts; knocking noise, replaced transmission mount).
Again, it didn't qualify for lemon law, but did under Mag-Moss and UCC.
I can't help but wonder how much extra I paid for my car. Knowing that not only did I have to pay for the cars manufactur, But I had to pay Union wages and benefits and for all these lawyers and people who game the system.
Sure, show us a few bad cars as examples. But I have to wonder what the cost to the rest of us is for all this legal runaround.
if the manufacturers did their jobs and corrected major problems, they would save themselves, and you, plenty of money.
Look at the GM piston slap issue, DCC transmissions, Neon headgaskets, Grand Am water leaks, Windstar/Taurus transmissions, Hyundai transmissions, Kia engine management systems..I can go on. If the manufacturer had spent the money to do some more research and let their engineers do their jobs, many of these recurrant problems wouldn't exist.
The beancounters, though, restricted development and research, allowing half-effort cars and trucks on the road. not only does it compromise our safety, it's a mechanical fiasco, with dealerships trying to correct the factory's mistakes after-the-fact.
Plus, every manufacturer in the nation stonewalls consumers and tries to duck the lemon law by delaying and intimidation tactics -
If they just did what the law requires, we wouldn't need lawyers to sue the manufacturer in lemon law suits and I wouldn't have a job. On one hand, I hope that day comes soon. On the other hand, I hope they wait until my kids are through college before they get their acts together...
The real irony is that US vehicle manufacturers helped write each state's lemon laws and Mag-Moss - that's funny because they do everything imaginable to avoid compliance.
No way! I won't take it back. It was funny! I know you aren't a lawyer but I have a family full of them who tell me every joke under the sun and I have some winners!
Really though, I could have used you with my '01 Cadillac STS. Leased in 4/01. From 5/01 to 7/03 car was in the dealership a total 28 days for power steering problems. The power assist would totally go out and render the steering nearly unusable when backing out of a parking place. Along with the 4 power steering "racks" that were replaced the entire instrument cluster, the rear backup sensing system and the HVAC controls were replaced during the first two years. In 2/03 I filed a lemon law suit that went to the BBB for arbitration. BBB claimed that GM had complied with the warranty and denied my claim. Then my attorney contacted them (GM) again threatening to take it further unless they released me from the lease and refunded my $1,000 deposit. I know I could have demanded full repayment for all of my payments minus the miles driven (very low since it was in the shop all of the time) but I thought I was being nice. After 6 weeks of haggling we settled for $1,800 and I had to keep the car to lease end. Luckily the car gave me no more troubles until I turned it in 3/04.
I, personally, have had two BBB cases, lost both of them. I see in about 60% of my cases that the consumer tried BBB first. They lost. The others didn't try.
The irony there is that most dealers (my old groups included) pay local dues for BBB membership, and since the BBB's inspector and legal rep are the final word in the matter, guess who wins and loses?
I've seen quite a few Seville and Deville steering cases, with symptoms and repairs just like you describe. I primarily do GM cases now, averaging 20 per week, with 10 "others" thrown in.
Wait for the Honda inspection and see what happens. Honda has become much more liberal with their pre-turn-in inspections over the last few years.. There is a good chance you will get off scot-free.
Really? A lemon-law case? Life is too short. That is why we lease!!
It's whatever cost the manufacturer decides it will be. I'm sure the cost to the rest of us for all this "legal runaround" is a LOT less for Lexus, Acura, etc than it is for the Kia/Hyundai/Jaguar because either a) the cars have fewer problems overall and less chace of litigation and/or b) those manufacturers work harder to resolve problems so a person is less likely to feel litigation is necessary.
I'm sure there are some out there that would want to Mag-Moss their car over 1 transmission, but I suspect most folks are reasonable people and feel as long as their dealer treats them properly and the problem is satisfactorily resolved, no one besides the dealer and the owner will ever hear about it.
OTOH, in the example drift gave on the Cougar, if you were that owner, jasmith, wouldn't YOU want that car bought back or be compensated for what surely was endless aggravation? I know I would and I would argue that if you say "no, because that's gaming the system", you're fooling with us to keep your point. My point is most people can handle inconvenience, but to a certain point. And beyond that point, all too often the only way to get proper resolution is through litigation. If it takes that, then whose fault is that? The owner, for being too picky? The dealer, who may (or may not) be sincerely trying to fix what, in the end, is just a junk vehicle? Or, the manufacturer, who could incur zero litigation cost by simply buying the car back?
All that said, I have no doubt there probably is gaming of the system going on and it would do the legal system (and the legal community) good to squash it before it starts. Same thing with medical malpractice and product liability. I hate to break it to some people, but just because Dear Ol' Dad died in the hospital, it doesn't mean Doc and his Assistants screwed up. If they did, fine, suck every penny out of 'em (or their insurance company, rather). But, recognize some things for what they are--the way things are made to be.
Same with cars. Some are junk and the owner should be made whole. If the company fusses, nail 'em. But, if your windshield wipers wear out or your tranny goes down and they fix it free and you get your loaner, but they just didn't get it done in 3 hours, stay the hell out of the legal system.
I hear that. I'm sure GM makes a lot of people grin with pleasure.
My other car, at the time was an Oldsmobile Bravada (2002), I'm SURE you've seen those problems. Funny about that one was that GM wouldn't release me from the lease but they allowed me to turn it in when I got my '03 Tahoe. Just 1 year 8 months into a 3 year lease, with $500 down and the dealer gave me EXACTLY the payoff for the Bravada after a 20 minute conversation with GM behind closed doors. I never did the get the straight story there.
The Tahoe on the other hand has been absolutely flawless. I haven't even noticed the dreaded piston slap. Getting rid of it in about 22 days to get a Toyota Solara Convertible.
Now, it's the Trailblazer/Envoy/Ranier/9-7x/Ascent and their 4x4 system problems - seems that the switches fail and the 4x4 system engages as you're cruising down the road, like at 65-70 mph...in a curve..
Yes, I remember reading a lot about those problems. I never did have an AWD problem but I had the ABS problem. My biggest problems were when one of the air bladders for the rear suspension ruptured and I was driving with one tire scratching the wheel well (until I noticed and stopped.) and then an ongoing transmission problem where the transmission would downshift abruptly about 10 seconds after stopping at a light. That and myriad rattles and broken trim pieces.
Best (no problems): Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Subaru Legacy/Outback, Subaru Forester, Suzuki XL-7.
Worst: Kia Spectra/Sephia, Kia Sportage, Kia Sedona, Hyundai Elantra, Hyundai Tiburon, Pontiac Grand Am, Pontiac Grand Prix, VW Jetta/Golf, Chevrolet Silverado, Jeep Wrangler, Mercedes ML Series..
According to the NHTSA the complaint index (their term not mine) relative to vehicles sold in the U.S Subaru Impreza 27,952 Infiniti I35 21,372 Audi A4 18,943 Ford Escape 14,441 Ford Focus 13,346 Acura RSX 11,657 Pontiac Aztek 11,537 Ford Excursion 10,277 Mitsubishi Eclipse 9,691 Jeep Liberty 9,214 Chevrolet corvette 9,214 Chevrolet Blazer 7,938 Suzuki Gr. Vitara 7,385 Volkswagen Passat 6,687 Honda Insight 6,496 Volkswagen Jetta 6,152 Acura TL 6,058 Suzuki Vitara 5,913 Land Rover Freelander 5,589 Audi A6 5,571 Dodge Caravan 5,561 Jeep Gr. Cherokee 5,235 Honda S2000 5,162 Gmc Yukon 5,094 Dodge Neon 5,045
I don't know if there is any bias in drift's last post, but I don't see Hyundai, Kia, of Mercedes anywhere here.
would come out and bash my short list, made from MY personal experience. That's why I hesitated to even answer the request, knowing people would want to pick it apart, because they looked up another list on a website somewhere.
How on Earth can you expect the 5,100 cases I've dealt with, compiled through personal experience in PA, NJ, DE, and NY, to line up in any fashion with a nationwide list gained by NHTSA??
Additionally, who complains to the NHTSA and what basis do we have to give any declarative value to that list? That's not a "lemon law" or "breach of warranty" list, it's a complaint list. No offense to Impreza owners, but it indicates that Impreza owners complain the most! From my experience, they don't have much reason to complain!
Bias, you say? How can you begin that claim? I keep rolling stats, and I call 'em like I see 'em, with nothing to gain from any manufacturer for leaving their name out or adding another name in.
the problem here is that you arent reading the stats right. the "index" in this case means that there was 1 complaint for every xxxx # of that vehicle built.
1 out of every 5000 neons has a complaint reported to NHTSA.
volume is the key, too. the honda s2000 has 1 out of every 5162, but thats about all they make each year.
the caravan has 1 out of every 5561, but they build over 250000 each year.
they drop in a link or group of info, usually without research or comparison, just for the sake of starting an argument. Serves no purpose. The only stats I believe or care about are the ones I've compiled - I know where they came from, I know they're accurate, and I know what they mean.
and are certainly on the "good" side - I purposely kept the list short to avoid two hours worth of compiling before being accosted with attitudes, statistics, and bias claims. I only did two minutes of compiling instead.
Hi ! I need some expert advice. I went to a dealership yesterday and ended up signing the contract for a car that I now do not want. I did not pay for it at the time as the finance rates the dealer gave me were high and I wanted to look for my own .The only thing that I did was write a check for 500 $ that they made me deposit for running a credit check (is what they told me).I cancelled the payment on that check .I want to know if I am bound to buy that car now or can I get out of it.How should I proceed from here ? Thanks.
Contracts are only valid if they include both parties receiving something. If the dealer is reputable they don't want a dissatisfied customer so they will try to find you whatever you like. If the dealer gives you a hassle and it gets this far, just refuse delivery of that car. They would have to draw up new paperwork, which invalidates the first contract.
Of course, there is also the reality that you should only sign a contract when you are sure you want to keep it.
Thanks for your help. I couldnt have been more stupid.I dont have a copy of what I signed there- all I can tell you is that it was just one piece of paper with the price of the car with another couple of fees .I did not sign any pieces of paper in the finance (business manager's) office. He offered rates that I found to high and I said- I dont want to do this today. I will arrange my own. The paper that I signed was at the time of running a credit application- and I was aksed to deposit a check for 500 $ for running the credit check -that I did. I did not even see the actual car yet- it was in their storage lot , certainly didnt test drive it and by no means drove it home. Is there any glimmer of hope in this situation ?
Relax...you didn't sign a contract. It was just the dealers initial quote summary, and it seems they wanted you to sign it just for it to look more official, so you won't have the urge to change your mind later. An official contract is a multi-part long page with alot of numbers and legal info. Until you sign that, you can cancel anytime.
How would you place nissan vehicles? Good, ok, or bad? Tried to do some research on xterras in the forums, but doesn't seem to be a lot of recent posts in the nissan xterra section.
You didn't sign a contract. The fact that they took the $500 for a "credit check" would make me think they are a company you don't want to do business with.
As has been said here many times before you ALWAYS want to go into a dealership with your own financing already taken care of. If you want them to see if they can do better, fine. If they can do better, fine.
Is this car very popular? I can't imagine them making you give a deposit for car that's just sitting on the back lot.
........ Drift brings a ton of good points to the table and his list is pretty darn accurate, no matter what the NHTSA, NRA, NASA, NOAA, NMM complaint index shows ...
The biggest point here is: Volume, shear volume and numbers .... there's a big difference between a Freelander that has maybe 10,000 vehicles on the ground and an Escape that has 250,000+, but most folks read what they want to read and perceive what they want to perceive, it's just human nature ..... Benz ML's ..? it's no secret, they been floppin' around since 98, I've seen bunches traded and/or they fell under (shhh, don't tell anybody) a "silent recall" thru Mercedes, and so has the "new" 7 series Bimmer, but people still buy them even with all the problems .. don't tell me the "Brand and the Badge" doesn't make a difference .l.o.l. ... the one to be lookin' out for is the new "C" class Benz, they're like ants, service departments are covered with them ....
Kia and Hyundai's.? .. heaven forbid we start a fire storm over these two, even with all the wonderful CR, etc reports .. at the auctions, these two have more things punched on their windshields than a tattoo parlor - it reads MBB/NW .. translation: Manufacturers Buy Back/No warranty.
I've been wondering about those Kia/Hyundai reports myself. I see them highly praised in CR but know their history also. Maybe the last couple of years have been showing better? Do you see many '02-04s that are buy backs?
Of course, while I read them religeously, I have to wonder how skewd their reports can get.
..... ** Do you see many '02-04s that are buy backs? **
Thats what I'm talkin' about - 02/04's .. mostly with miles in the 20k or less range, 03/04's with miles mostly in the 10k or less range ...... I can't say where they get their info, but "as a rule" (if there is such thing) it's hitting a market that is average or below in income and/or there's some debt, or ~ they're buying it for their daughter, mutant son, aunt, 3rd wife, 2nd/3rd vehicle, transportation, whatever, it's a "buy down" vehicle, it's a payment ...
Look at your "cross sale reports" the vast majority of these buyers are "not" coming out of a Buick, Civic, Corolla, Accord, Altima, Sentra or a Protege' and if they are, it's usually 5/7 years old and they have 75/100/125,000 miles ticking away .. the next time you go driving around, look at the Kia/Hyundai dealers used inventory, how many Avalon/Sentra/Acura/Subu's do you see.? .. and if you see any, ask the UCM when he bought em' at the auction .l.o.l...
So then, it comes to expectations .. if someone hasn't been in the market for a vehicle in the last 5/7 years and they don't know vehicles and don't "really" notice stuff, then a few good reports, some nice print-outs and the low price seems to suffice and service work is service work, so they take it in .. everyone has a different saturation point, some could end up in a dealership 8 times and say "golly ghee guys, please fix it" or be like neighbor who almost ran the service manager down at the Bimmer store the first time, because "he" couldn't figure out the i-drive, but thats more ego than anything .. then some are like my aunt that I picked up at the airport last week, I was driving a E55 and she says: "I really like these new Camry's" ..l.o.l.. perception can be everything ........
Terry's "cross sales report" bit sure rings a bell here. Local Hyundai place has used Grand Am's, Neons, Cavaliers...the usual junk. No Nissans or Subarus for a country mile. Makes you wonder.
Of course, those huge warranties for Kia/Hyundai sure get attention. Take my example. My wife has a 1996 Neon, maybe 65k miles on it, runs well but looks like crap because she doesn't clean it out and gets minor scrapes. She wants something bigger than the Neon. I'm looking in the 8-10k range for a replacement vehicle.
So if I want something she can beat to death, I can either get a 1998 Accord (maybe), something like that, with no warranty, or get a new Kia with a big warranty. The Accord would likely have no problems, even if I buy one with 75k miles in, while a new Kia could likely have problems for the next several years. Overall cost to me probably isn't too different either way, but satisfaction is another matter. I drive Subaru myself, which is great, but they're too pricey as used vehicles. So, which way to go?
Not complicated, to me at least. Reliability trumps warranty every time.
Say, any ideas on a good car in the 8-10k range, something that is OK in winter? Accord sized at least. Something that I'm not likely to be dropping 1k a year in repairs, preferably.
have very few "problem children", but they are just a few ticks shy of "untouchable" status that Honda, Toyota, and Lexus has earned, at least in my case groupings.
mfullmer - many folks argue the point on Hyundai and Kia saying that "the older cars were problematic, sure, but the new ones..."
ALL I deal in is new cars - In 2001, when I started doing this, I was looking at 1998-1999 models (and newer) - now, I'm looking at '02s, '03s and some '04s - even had an '05 already (DCC product, you know those minivans...).
That whole defense of "Kias/Hyundais were bad 15 years ago, but they're great now" doesn't wash. My folks had a 1989 Hyundai Excel, and yes, it was garbage, and sure, improvements have certainly been made or the two companies would no longer be in business - I'm just not ready to throw either company a parade just yet, since my compadres and I see more Kia/Hyundai cases than all the other manufacturers combined - think about Kia/Hyundai production numbers compared to Ford, GM (the whole company), and Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, VW, etc...
Took that line from the first song of the new "Big and Rich" album - country music, bass-heavy, harmony, mixes country with bass thumping and even some rap...they call it "Country Music Without Predjudice"..
the most recent posts have been enlightening. nice to see an objective discussion that educates everyone. sure beats some of the us vs. them arguments of the past (which i have to admit i contributed to).
I have to agree. I have just been wondering with the JD Powers and CR articles.
The last time I had any experience with Kia was in 1996 when I was working for my mothers Olds/Honda/Kia store in Oakland, CA. I remember lots of talk about what crap those first Sephias were and I particularly remember many times where there was a line of them in the service take-in driveway.
This is a great discussion enlightening, and much appreciated by a car novice. A big “Thank you” to the pros who volunteer valuable time and expertise.
So here’s a question: could anyone comment on whether I am reasonable or unreasonable about noise in my lexus RX 330. I live in MA where the lemon law addresses defects that “substantially impair the use, safety or market value of the vehicle,” there have been 3 or more unsuccessful repair attempts, or it has been out of service for 15 or more business days within one year or 15K miles for any combination of problems.
My RX has had several issues, transmission, etc. common to RX’s. They were fixed, and I have no complaints about attending to them despite that it’s been in repair more than 15 days. The intractable problem is rattles. On the face of it, rattles seem trivial but the dash has been completely removed 3 times and partially another time. There have been multiple attempts to fix vibration in the A pillars and a tapping headliner. These rattles are a known problem, with more than one TSB. My dealer was removing 50 dashes per month a while back and lexus had techs in the field studying them. Again, on the face, rattles seem trivial, but shouldn’t a 40K+ car be free of rattles, squeaks and pops? Quiet was a major reason, actually the MAIN reason I bought a luxury vehicle. (I have severe migraine, exacerbated by continuous noise. I know migraine is my problem, not a lexus concern, but that’s WHY I bought it). I’ve never owned anything in the “luxury” realm before.
Anyway, what do you think? Should a luxury car be quiet? Does pulling the dash 3 plus times affect its market value? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. A poster on another board has offered to tell me how he got a manufacturer to “buy back.” I just want to know if I’m on the same planet, near the ballpark, or actually in it before contacting him. I’m not litigious and always prefer to work things out amicably.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance for your comments..
rattles, unless it's rattles just before big things fall off, are not "significant impairments of use, safety, or value". I get that question a lot, and no matter how many times a rattle is repaired and comes back, it doesn't hurt your ability to actually USE the vehicle. That said, I know it's annoying, and with Lexus, the regional service reps are very helpful - you might talk to your local service manager and see if they can arrange a meeting between you and your district/regional Lexus rep.
Grand Ams and Grand Prixs ('98-04) have identical problems with water leaks, with water intrusion through the door panels (poor water deflectors), and in the trunk. there have been several I've seen where the water was able to short out major electrical modules like the BCM, PCM, and things like window motors and a/c controls.
electrical problems, but not usually water leak-related. The Bonneville has differently styled doors that don't allow the problems like the GA and GP have - I have seen several water leaks in the trunks of Bonnevilles (new body style), though, but all they do is smell bad and ruin your resale value.
for the assessment. Not what I wanted to hear but what I expected. Still, I was hoping... Thanks for the suggestion to talk with the regional rep. I' ll follow through and let you know what comes of it.
I bought an '04 Odyssey in June for about $200 over the invoice price listed on the vehicle, and while I was negotiating the dealer told me several times that he was making "virtually no money on this sale". After I bought my Odyssey, I later read about something called Dealer Holdback, which amounts to somewhere around 1.75% of the invoice and is pocketed by the dealership upon a sale. On top of that, I can't see how dealerships can offer these ridiculous rebates and still stay in business, so how much money does the dealership make on the sale of a vehicle? Is it fair to ask a dealer to sell a vehicle at invoice, consumer demand not withstanding?
and has been covered many times - long story short, it's a financial reserve set up to offset the cost of financing while the car is on the dealer's lot - it usually runs out after a month or two, or less, depending on the price of the vehicle.
Some buyers brag about "getting into the dealer's holdback", but at my stores, if a buyer came in talking that smack, they'd be asked to leave - after all, if we can't get a few hundred (at least) over invoice AND pay for floor-planning the vehicle, we don't need to sell it.
Don't you think that a couple hundred on a $25-30 rig is fair? I don't, but if that's what it takes to sell the vehicle, then fine. But you're not getting into my holdback, because most of the time, especially when speaking colletively about the whole inventory, there's not much, if any, money to "get into".
I'll do this quick, before the name-calling starts. This has been rehashed many times, and the gist is this: holdback is designed to pay for the dealer's financing cost. If the car sells very quickly, it gives a little money, if it sits four months, it isn't enough. What you count as "profit" is a matter of definition, because the dealer has a lot of overhead to cover before he takes home his first nickel to give to the Mrs.
None of it really matters. You should never discuss profit with a dealer anyway, it's none of your business, and it isn't polite.
Figure out what the going rate is for your car; sometimes it's invoice - rebates, sometimes it's MSRP or more, sometimes it's "take my car, please".
Figure out what you want to offer -- these forums can help -- then make an offer. I'll be rejected if it's too low, and then you can always reconsider. Resist demands to explain how you got to a certain figure; these discussions are not helpful.
As long as you're polite and respectful of people's time, you'll do fine.
Comments
It's a 1999 Mercury Cougar...
This vehicle has had 13 complaints/repair attempts involving the electrical system (the driver's power window motor failed while still in dealer stock (at 17 miles); noise when starting, removed transmission to replace flywheel and starter; “battery” warning light on, replaced alternator; instrument cluster/speedometer inoperative at times, noted at 22,584 miles, part on back order; replaced instrument cluster; sunroof would not open or close completely, replaced sunroof motor; instrument panel needles are erratic, car does not start at times, replaced battery; “airbag” light on, power door locks work erratically; instrument panel goes dark after hitting bumps, repaired wine connection; “ low washer fluid” warning light is on, replaced washer fluid sensor (failed)), 3 complaints/repair attempts involving the engine management system ("check engine" warning light activation, replaced left upstream oxygen sensor; noise in engine compartment, replaced air bypass valve; “check engine” warning lamp activated, replaced intake manifold valve linkage), and 3 complaints/repair attempts involving the engine assembly (engine oil leak, replaced oil pan gasket; replaced the front and rear motor mounts; knocking noise, replaced transmission mount).
Again, it didn't qualify for lemon law, but did under Mag-Moss and UCC.
You can take your windshield wiper joke back now.
Sure, show us a few bad cars as examples. But I have to wonder what the cost to the rest of us is for all this legal runaround.
Look at the GM piston slap issue, DCC transmissions, Neon headgaskets, Grand Am water leaks, Windstar/Taurus transmissions, Hyundai transmissions, Kia engine management systems..I can go on. If the manufacturer had spent the money to do some more research and let their engineers do their jobs, many of these recurrant problems wouldn't exist.
The beancounters, though, restricted development and research, allowing half-effort cars and trucks on the road. not only does it compromise our safety, it's a mechanical fiasco, with dealerships trying to correct the factory's mistakes after-the-fact.
Plus, every manufacturer in the nation stonewalls consumers and tries to duck the lemon law by delaying and intimidation tactics -
If they just did what the law requires, we wouldn't need lawyers to sue the manufacturer in lemon law suits and I wouldn't have a job. On one hand, I hope that day comes soon. On the other hand, I hope they wait until my kids are through college before they get their acts together...
The real irony is that US vehicle manufacturers helped write each state's lemon laws and Mag-Moss - that's funny because they do everything imaginable to avoid compliance.
Really though, I could have used you with my '01 Cadillac STS. Leased in 4/01. From 5/01 to 7/03 car was in the dealership a total 28 days for power steering problems. The power assist would totally go out and render the steering nearly unusable when backing out of a parking place. Along with the 4 power steering "racks" that were replaced the entire instrument cluster, the rear backup sensing system and the HVAC controls were replaced during the first two years. In 2/03 I filed a lemon law suit that went to the BBB for arbitration. BBB claimed that GM had complied with the warranty and denied my claim. Then my attorney contacted them (GM) again threatening to take it further unless they released me from the lease and refunded my $1,000 deposit. I know I could have demanded full repayment for all of my payments minus the miles driven (very low since it was in the shop all of the time) but I thought I was being nice. After 6 weeks of haggling we settled for $1,800 and I had to keep the car to lease end. Luckily the car gave me no more troubles until I turned it in 3/04.
The irony there is that most dealers (my old groups included) pay local dues for BBB membership, and since the BBB's inspector and legal rep are the final word in the matter, guess who wins and loses?
I've seen quite a few Seville and Deville steering cases, with symptoms and repairs just like you describe. I primarily do GM cases now, averaging 20 per week, with 10 "others" thrown in.
Really? A lemon-law case? Life is too short. That is why we lease!!
regards,
kyfdx
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I'm sure there are some out there that would want to Mag-Moss their car over 1 transmission, but I suspect most folks are reasonable people and feel as long as their dealer treats them properly and the problem is satisfactorily resolved, no one besides the dealer and the owner will ever hear about it.
OTOH, in the example drift gave on the Cougar, if you were that owner, jasmith, wouldn't YOU want that car bought back or be compensated for what surely was endless aggravation? I know I would and I would argue that if you say "no, because that's gaming the system", you're fooling with us to keep your point. My point is most people can handle inconvenience, but to a certain point. And beyond that point, all too often the only way to get proper resolution is through litigation. If it takes that, then whose fault is that? The owner, for being too picky? The dealer, who may (or may not) be sincerely trying to fix what, in the end, is just a junk vehicle? Or, the manufacturer, who could incur zero litigation cost by simply buying the car back?
All that said, I have no doubt there probably is gaming of the system going on and it would do the legal system (and the legal community) good to squash it before it starts. Same thing with medical malpractice and product liability. I hate to break it to some people, but just because Dear Ol' Dad died in the hospital, it doesn't mean Doc and his Assistants screwed up. If they did, fine, suck every penny out of 'em (or their insurance company, rather). But, recognize some things for what they are--the way things are made to be.
Same with cars. Some are junk and the owner should be made whole. If the company fusses, nail 'em. But, if your windshield wipers wear out or your tranny goes down and they fix it free and you get your loaner, but they just didn't get it done in 3 hours, stay the hell out of the legal system.
My other car, at the time was an Oldsmobile Bravada (2002), I'm SURE you've seen those problems. Funny about that one was that GM wouldn't release me from the lease but they allowed me to turn it in when I got my '03 Tahoe. Just 1 year 8 months into a 3 year lease, with $500 down and the dealer gave me EXACTLY the payoff for the Bravada after a 20 minute conversation with GM behind closed doors. I never did the get the straight story there.
The Tahoe on the other hand has been absolutely flawless. I haven't even noticed the dreaded piston slap. Getting rid of it in about 22 days to get a Toyota Solara Convertible.
Now, it's the Trailblazer/Envoy/Ranier/9-7x/Ascent and their 4x4 system problems - seems that the switches fail and the 4x4 system engages as you're cruising down the road, like at 65-70 mph...in a curve..
See, I have a sense of humor!
Which cars would you say have the LEAST and MOST problems.
Please provide a little list on both side of the spectrum.
If you don't mind ofcourse!
Thanks,
Copper
Best (no problems): Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Subaru Legacy/Outback, Subaru Forester, Suzuki XL-7.
Worst: Kia Spectra/Sephia, Kia Sportage, Kia Sedona, Hyundai Elantra, Hyundai Tiburon, Pontiac Grand Am, Pontiac Grand Prix, VW Jetta/Golf, Chevrolet Silverado, Jeep Wrangler, Mercedes ML Series..
It's the darned electronics, mostly.
I think.
-Mathias
Subaru Impreza 27,952
Infiniti I35 21,372
Audi A4 18,943
Ford Escape 14,441
Ford Focus 13,346
Acura RSX 11,657
Pontiac Aztek 11,537
Ford Excursion 10,277
Mitsubishi Eclipse 9,691
Jeep Liberty 9,214
Chevrolet corvette 9,214
Chevrolet Blazer 7,938
Suzuki Gr. Vitara 7,385
Volkswagen Passat 6,687
Honda Insight 6,496
Volkswagen Jetta 6,152
Acura TL 6,058
Suzuki Vitara 5,913
Land Rover Freelander 5,589
Audi A6 5,571
Dodge Caravan 5,561
Jeep Gr. Cherokee 5,235
Honda S2000 5,162
Gmc Yukon 5,094
Dodge Neon 5,045
I don't know if there is any bias in drift's last post, but I don't see Hyundai, Kia, of Mercedes anywhere here.
How on Earth can you expect the 5,100 cases I've dealt with, compiled through personal experience in PA, NJ, DE, and NY, to line up in any fashion with a nationwide list gained by NHTSA??
Additionally, who complains to the NHTSA and what basis do we have to give any declarative value to that list? That's not a "lemon law" or "breach of warranty" list, it's a complaint list. No offense to Impreza owners, but it indicates that Impreza owners complain the most! From my experience, they don't have much reason to complain!
Bias, you say? How can you begin that claim? I keep rolling stats, and I call 'em like I see 'em, with nothing to gain from any manufacturer for leaving their name out or adding another name in.
1 out of every 5000 neons has a complaint reported to NHTSA.
volume is the key, too. the honda s2000 has 1 out of every 5162, but thats about all they make each year.
the caravan has 1 out of every 5561, but they build over 250000 each year.
I need some expert advice. I went to a dealership yesterday and ended up signing the contract for a car that I now do not want. I did not pay for it at the time as the finance rates the dealer gave me were high and I wanted to look for my own .The only thing that I did was write a check for 500 $ that they made me deposit for running a credit check (is what they told me).I cancelled the payment on that check .I want to know if I am bound to buy that car now or can I get out of it.How should I proceed from here ?
Thanks.
Thanks Driftracer and sorry for starting the debate.
Copper
Of course, there is also the reality that you should only sign a contract when you are sure you want to keep it.
May I please ask for more detail?
I couldnt have been more stupid.I dont have a copy of what I signed there- all I can tell you is that it was just one piece of paper with the price of the car with another couple of fees .I did not sign any pieces of paper in the finance (business manager's) office. He offered rates that I found to high and I said- I dont want to do this today. I will arrange my own.
The paper that I signed was at the time of running a credit application- and I was aksed to deposit a check for 500 $ for running the credit check -that I did.
I did not even see the actual car yet- it was in their storage lot , certainly didnt test drive it and by no means drove it home.
Is there any glimmer of hope in this situation ?
It was just the dealers initial quote summary, and it seems they wanted you to sign it just for it to look more official, so you won't have the urge to change your mind later.
An official contract is a multi-part long page with alot of numbers and legal info. Until you sign that, you can cancel anytime.
Copper
As has been said here many times before you ALWAYS want to go into a dealership with your own financing already taken care of. If you want them to see if they can do better, fine. If they can do better, fine.
Is this car very popular? I can't imagine them making you give a deposit for car that's just sitting on the back lot.
The biggest point here is: Volume, shear volume and numbers .... there's a big difference between a Freelander that has maybe 10,000 vehicles on the ground and an Escape that has 250,000+, but most folks read what they want to read and perceive what they want to perceive, it's just human nature ..... Benz ML's ..? it's no secret, they been floppin' around since 98, I've seen bunches traded and/or they fell under (shhh, don't tell anybody) a "silent recall" thru Mercedes, and so has the "new" 7 series Bimmer, but people still buy them even with all the problems .. don't tell me the "Brand and the Badge" doesn't make a difference .l.o.l. ... the one to be lookin' out for is the new "C" class Benz, they're like ants, service departments are covered with them ....
Kia and Hyundai's.? .. heaven forbid we start a fire storm over these two, even with all the wonderful CR, etc reports .. at the auctions, these two have more things punched on their windshields than a tattoo parlor - it reads MBB/NW .. translation: Manufacturers Buy Back/No warranty.
Terry
Of course, while I read them religeously, I have to wonder how skewd their reports can get.
Thats what I'm talkin' about - 02/04's .. mostly with miles in the 20k or less range, 03/04's with miles mostly in the 10k or less range ...... I can't say where they get their info, but "as a rule" (if there is such thing) it's hitting a market that is average or below in income and/or there's some debt, or ~ they're buying it for their daughter, mutant son, aunt, 3rd wife, 2nd/3rd vehicle, transportation, whatever, it's a "buy down" vehicle, it's a payment ...
Look at your "cross sale reports" the vast majority of these buyers are "not" coming out of a Buick, Civic, Corolla, Accord, Altima, Sentra or a Protege' and if they are, it's usually 5/7 years old and they have 75/100/125,000 miles ticking away .. the next time you go driving around, look at the Kia/Hyundai dealers used inventory, how many Avalon/Sentra/Acura/Subu's do you see.? .. and if you see any, ask the UCM when he bought em' at the auction .l.o.l...
So then, it comes to expectations .. if someone hasn't been in the market for a vehicle in the last 5/7 years and they don't know vehicles and don't "really" notice stuff, then a few good reports, some nice print-outs and the low price seems to suffice and service work is service work, so they take it in .. everyone has a different saturation point, some could end up in a dealership 8 times and say "golly ghee guys, please fix it" or be like neighbor who almost ran the service manager down at the Bimmer store the first time, because "he" couldn't figure out the i-drive, but thats more ego than anything .. then some are like my aunt that I picked up at the airport last week, I was driving a E55 and she says: "I really like these new Camry's" ..l.o.l.. perception can be everything ........
Terry.
Of course, those huge warranties for Kia/Hyundai sure get attention. Take my example. My wife has a 1996 Neon, maybe 65k miles on it, runs well but looks like crap because she doesn't clean it out and gets minor scrapes. She wants something bigger than the Neon. I'm looking in the 8-10k range for a replacement vehicle.
So if I want something she can beat to death, I can either get a 1998 Accord (maybe), something like that, with no warranty, or get a new Kia with a big warranty. The Accord would likely have no problems, even if I buy one with 75k miles in, while a new Kia could likely have problems for the next several years. Overall cost to me probably isn't too different either way, but satisfaction is another matter. I drive Subaru myself, which is great, but they're too pricey as used vehicles. So, which way to go?
Not complicated, to me at least. Reliability trumps warranty every time.
Say, any ideas on a good car in the 8-10k range, something that is OK in winter? Accord sized at least. Something that I'm not likely to be dropping 1k a year in repairs, preferably.
-Dan-
mfullmer - many folks argue the point on Hyundai and Kia saying that "the older cars were problematic, sure, but the new ones..."
ALL I deal in is new cars - In 2001, when I started doing this, I was looking at 1998-1999 models (and newer) - now, I'm looking at '02s, '03s and some '04s - even had an '05 already (DCC product, you know those minivans...).
That whole defense of "Kias/Hyundais were bad 15 years ago, but they're great now" doesn't wash. My folks had a 1989 Hyundai Excel, and yes, it was garbage, and sure, improvements have certainly been made or the two companies would no longer be in business - I'm just not ready to throw either company a parade just yet, since my compadres and I see more Kia/Hyundai cases than all the other manufacturers combined - think about Kia/Hyundai production numbers compared to Ford, GM (the whole company), and Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, VW, etc...
Took that line from the first song of the new "Big and Rich" album - country music, bass-heavy, harmony, mixes country with bass thumping and even some rap...they call it "Country Music Without Predjudice"..
The last time I had any experience with Kia was in 1996 when I was working for my mothers Olds/Honda/Kia store in Oakland, CA. I remember lots of talk about what crap those first Sephias were and I particularly remember many times where there was a line of them in the service take-in driveway.
So here’s a question: could anyone comment on whether I am reasonable or unreasonable about noise in my lexus RX 330. I live in MA where the lemon law addresses defects that “substantially impair the use, safety or market value of the vehicle,” there have been 3 or more unsuccessful repair attempts, or it has been out of service for 15 or more business days within one year or 15K miles for any combination of problems.
My RX has had several issues, transmission, etc. common to RX’s. They were fixed, and I have no complaints about attending to them despite that it’s been in repair more than 15 days. The intractable problem is rattles. On the face of it, rattles seem trivial but the dash has been completely removed 3 times and partially another time. There have been multiple attempts to fix vibration in the A pillars and a tapping headliner. These rattles are a known problem, with more than one TSB. My dealer was removing 50 dashes per month a while back and lexus had techs in the field studying them. Again, on the face, rattles seem trivial, but shouldn’t a 40K+ car be free of rattles, squeaks and pops? Quiet was a major reason, actually the MAIN reason I bought a luxury vehicle. (I have severe migraine, exacerbated by continuous noise. I know migraine is my problem, not a lexus concern, but that’s WHY I bought it). I’ve never owned anything in the “luxury” realm before.
Anyway, what do you think? Should a luxury car be quiet? Does pulling the dash 3 plus times affect its market value? Any comments would be greatly appreciated. A poster on another board has offered to tell me how he got a manufacturer to “buy back.” I just want to know if I’m on the same planet, near the ballpark, or actually in it before contacting him. I’m not litigious and always prefer to work things out amicably.
Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance for your comments..
Katherine
Does that also apply to the Bonneville model?
Thanks to all for this informative discussion.
katherine
Some buyers brag about "getting into the dealer's holdback", but at my stores, if a buyer came in talking that smack, they'd be asked to leave - after all, if we can't get a few hundred (at least) over invoice AND pay for floor-planning the vehicle, we don't need to sell it.
Don't you think that a couple hundred on a $25-30 rig is fair? I don't, but if that's what it takes to sell the vehicle, then fine. But you're not getting into my holdback, because most of the time, especially when speaking colletively about the whole inventory, there's not much, if any, money to "get into".
This has been rehashed many times, and the gist is this: holdback is designed to pay for the dealer's financing cost. If the car sells very quickly, it gives a little money, if it sits four months, it isn't enough. What you count as "profit" is a matter of definition, because the dealer has a lot of overhead to cover before he takes home his first nickel to give to the Mrs.
None of it really matters. You should never discuss profit with a dealer anyway, it's none of your business, and it isn't polite.
Figure out what the going rate is for your car; sometimes it's invoice - rebates, sometimes it's MSRP or more, sometimes it's "take my car, please".
Figure out what you want to offer -- these forums can help -- then make an offer. I'll be rejected if it's too low, and then you can always reconsider. Resist demands to explain how you got to a certain figure; these discussions are not helpful.
As long as you're polite and respectful of people's time, you'll do fine.
-Mathias