Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

6ontheroad

Thanks for the response. But I do not want to waste my time or the dealer's time by trying to exact every concession from the salesman on price. I just do not want to be taken on a deal with exorbitant profit.

Sincerely, I have had my own businesses in the past and played fair. I just want the same type of consideration.

driftracer

get a concensus of what a fair price is for the van you find and like.

In fact, post all the pertinent data for the van in Real World Trade Values, and Terry or I (or several others) can give you a pretty danged accurate price for what you should be offering.

Terry has 50,000 (plus) auction vehicles worth of experience, and my experience is approaching 20,000 vehicles - we'll give you a good idea, so you can walk in and know what to offer.

bobst

You play fair with people, and you "just want the same type of consideration" from others. You're kidding, right? That not gonna happen in the real world.

Take Drifty's advice.

If you don't want to waste people's time, then determine a price you are willing to pay for a vehicle, go to a car dealer, and offer that price. If they accept, fork over the cash and drive your new buggy home.

If they refuse, go somewhere else. It only takes a few minutes, so no one has wasted their precious time.

bowke28

exhorbitant profit...what, exactly is that?

what if the dealer got the van for $5 and sold it for $1000 under market value? would you be mad that the dealer made all that money? or would you be happy that you got a fair price?

mirth

bowke - while I agree with you in spirit, I think I'd be annoyed if I paid $1000+ over market value on an under-$30K vehicle. $500, not so much.

bowke28

i said UNDER.

stickguy

market value changes pretty quickly these days. So, what you think is $1000 over may be high or low.

Bobst does make a good point that the only way to know if you are too low is make an offer, and walk if they say no. If they let you go, it probably is too low.

Of course, you really need to start way low with this method to avoid leaving $$ on the table. But, if you do the research, you should have a pretty good target price. Offer just a bit lower than this, and you should be able to come to a satisfactory deal pretty quickly.

bowke28

the flaw in this case is that it is on a used vehicle, and one that arent many in number. you may find what you want, but it may be the only one out there.

doing the bobst method may work against you in this case.

bobst

My way works fine with Hondas, where every dealer has the exact same new cars and any numbskull can find the invoice price and easily determine an OTD offer.

With used cars, a buyer has to be a lot more savy. so that leaves me out.

By the way, I agree with your comment about "exorbitant profit". That combination of words don't mean nuthin to me.

stickguy

I believe that I was commenting on new cars. I agree that pricing used cars is a giant pain in the butt, especially with the somewhat "optommistic" asking prices some dealers start with.

Maybe not bad if you are shopping mainstream (ie, 2003 Taurus rental cars), but really a hassle when your tastes are more esoteric (like stick shift sedans or station wagons).

bobst

When station wagons were not considered esoteric.

stickguy

Well, they are kind of a niche market anyway, but I meant that stick shift ones were very rare.

isellhondas

It drives some shoppers nuts because they can't find out what we paid for a used car. They are afraid to death that we just might be making a (gasp)profit that is more than they think is "fair".

Last week, I got called in to try to make a deal happen. The shopper brought along a cocky "first baseman" who, at one point had sold cars.

The used car happened to be a car that had been in our inventory for 45 days. We had run into some unexpected reconditioning costs so we were "in it" for exactly what we had it advertised for. This happens.

The first baseman was doing all of the talking. They had offered 2000.00 less than the ad price. As I was explaining why this wouldn't work, the first baseman suddenly said..." We will pay you 500.00 more than you have in it"

No problem...I brought out the file on the car and showed them we had 10,350 in the car. It was advertised for 10,495. I told them we had a deal at the 10,850 he had offered!

Boy...did that shut him up! And, no,,,they didn't buy the car but it sold the next morning.

jlawrence01

>>They are afraid to death that we just might be making a (gasp)profit that is more than they think is "fair".<<

If they only knew the gross margins on some of the things that they were buying retail ...

stickguy

the only time I "knew" what a dealer had in a car is when I bought my Miata. I ended up getting a good price (it was late November in NJ). It only had one key, so I asked if they would pay for another one (sorry to put the paddles to that horse). The salesguy came back (after trip to the UCM) with a $ amount written on a paper, which was only about $150 less than I was paying. Turns out that the UCMs way of saying no second key was to show me how little they were making (based on what they had in it).

To me, a poor business practice. I considered giving him a dig about be lousy at his job for getting semi-buried in a used car, but I let it slide, being a magnanimous sort and all.

I personally think it is inconsiderate for a dealer (Ford, not some small lot) to not make sure that all their cars have 2 keys, and it should be a basic requirement.

perna

I was at the local Pontiac dealer with my dad and wife looking at minivans. My father was looking through their used car stock, when I heard him amusedly utter an obscenity.

Apparantly an employee of his had traded in an older Miata and was given an allowance of $1500 for it. The car in question was in a special section of their lot dedicated to, "been here forever, MUST GO, bottom barrel pricing! Priced as marked, no negotiation!" etc..

So, what was the price on the car? $8,995.

Just for kicks I looked at the book value on this car, and indeed it was around $1900. So they did give her less than book, but they could easily explain that due to the fact the car was about ten model years old, the condition didn't warrant full book. Fine. But to price the thing SO FAR above the trade? Somebody's getting robbed on this deal, but I'm not sure who. I can't imagine dealing on a car marked $9k and saying, "eh, I'll give ya $2500" and not expect to get laughed off the lot.

It definately gave me a reality check when shopping for used cars. The moral of the story is, offer what the car is worth TO YOU, and ignore whatever price is on the car (and any dealer hystrionics that follow while negotiating!).

6ontheroad

I agree exorbitant profit is a vague phrase.

Do the following details as told to me by the salesman make it more likely the dealer will move downward on the price:

I was told that this van was purchased in a group of three for a small business owner who had approved financing to purchase three vans. However, before he finalized the purchase he also bought a car for his wife which reduced his credit buying power by one van.

The van has been on the dealer's lot since August 2, 2004.

Question: Will my attempts to purchase this van be viewed as an individual transaction separate from costs/profits associated with the sale of its two brethren?

I am assuming what the salesman told me about the existence of the other two vans is true.

Thanks in advance.

isellhondas

Personally, I think you are over-analyzing this to death. It doesn't have to be difficult. It's either a good value to you or it's not.

Make an offer you are comfortable with and see what happens!

Life is short...enjoy!

avatexrs1

I've got a 1998 Accord with about 55,000 miles. It doesn't have a scratch on it (really - I was getting an oil change at the dealer - $15 special - and asked the guy what year he thought it was, and he guessed a 2002). I'm ready to buy a new car - probably an Acura TL or Lexus ES330 - business has been good the last few years and I'd like an upgrade from the Accords I've driven for the past 15+ years.

I've also got a 14 year old daughter who will be driving in a two years. My question is whether I should keep the Accord around for her, or trade it in now. I'm guessing the trade-in value on it is probably around $8,000 (which seems low to me, but the market is what it is), and I can easily afford the new car with or without the trade. I estimate that trading it in will save around $500 in sales tax, plus another $1,000 in insurance, registration fees, etc. over the next two years. On the other hand, if I have to go out and get another car in two years, and I can't see myself finding a better car for her then for $9,500 or less (the $8,000 I got for my Accord plus the $1,500 I saved by trading it in). Does this make any sense or am I missing something?

landru2

That may be a nice story about where the van came from but has no bearing on the price you will pay for it.

From the dealership's point of view your purchase will have nothing to do with any other transactions, past, present, or future.

rowlandj

I would hang on to that car as you will likely not find as good a replacement when the time comes. I did the same with my 'retiring' Chevy for my daughter a few years ago. It was handy to have the spare car for that time and I kept using in on occasion to ensure that the fluids were circulated and that the car did not get dried out seals etc....

If you go looking for a replacement in a year or two you won't find one as nice as what you have right now.

JR

stickguy

Well, ignoring all the peripheral issues about how the deal went down, ou do have an order form that says delivery needs to occur by Sept. 30, and they didn't deliver. So, you certainly are within your rights to ask for a refund and to squash the deal. If they give you a hard time (and based on your description of the negotiating process, they just might) you can certainly put a hold on the CC.

The title of your post is true though. Price isn't everything, and very often "great" deals aren't quite as good as they seem.

bowke28

my response to those "1st, 2nd, or 3rd basemen" is as follows:

"ok, mr. friend, will you be helping out with the down payment, monthly payment, or a little bit of both?"

shuts them up every time, and puts the buyer on your side.

sometimes, the buyer will actually turn against the friend when they realize what happened:

"yeah!! im paying for this, and ill get what i want!!!"

dont get me wrong, having help in a deal is not a bad thing...but when the help takes over a deal, it becomes stressful for all involved.

bowke28

go to the dealer, and ask for the GM. let him know that you want to unwind the deal, since they didnt honor the agreement. then go to another dealer.

p.s. a locate can be done in 15 minutes, if a car is available.

kerry

I may have just made the biggest mistake of my life. My husband and I spent 4 hours trying to get a dodge dealers to get our payments to what we wanted for as long as we needed. We made a verbal agreement but did not sign the papers because he said his computers were down. He put a dealer plate on it and let us take it home. He said he will bring the papers to my house to sign on Monday. For an educated adult I didn't find out anything except 6yrs 400.00. NOW I am concerned he will bring the papers and it will be something completely different which I won't be able to afford. If this happens do I have a leg to stand on or am I out of luck.

driftracer

there is NO contract until you sign one - taking a car for an extended test drive doesn't actually commit you in any way.

You NEED all the numbers and you need to like them, or you need to take the car back and WALK.

To heck with payment - that's the trap that gets a lot of people. Sure, payment is important, but so is the rest of the deal.

Make sure you're paying a fair price for the car - research it here on Edmunds. Make sure you're getting a fair deal on your trade, if there is one. Post all the particulars on it in Real World Trade Values and we'll look at it.

Make sure the interest rate fits your credit situation and qualifications.

Feel free to post all the numbers, and DON'T EVER sign a contract unless you're happy. Time to put the brakes on this deal...

kerry

thank you for the quick reply

A similar situation happened with my sister
The dealer had quoted her one thing they took the car went back to sign the papers and were told another. They asked if they had to take the car and were told if they did not they would have to pay approx $1200 because the had a verbal agreement and drove it off the lot. is this legal? Is there a law in pa that states you can return a car in so many days (aside from the lemon law) and is signing the papers in my home a bad idea. if there is such a law were would i find it on the internet

driftracer

or any other state that allows you to return a vehicle - that's why I solidly encourage you to do your homework before signing ANYTHING.

There's no such thing as a "verbal agreement" - it's either on paper or it isn't. They lied, plain and simple.

I'm in PA, too - contact me off-line (e-mail is in my profile) and I can give you more info. I don't know how much detail the hosts are wanting on your particular situation.

murray53

I would immediately contact the credit card company and dispute the charge for the deposit. I would also try to find out if the dealer is a local BBB member (probably not if he uses these hardball tactics) and file a complaint. If those moves don't work and the dealer won't return your deposit I can't see any alternatives to possibly going to small claims court to get your money back. Unfortunately, you got a bad apple who should be put out of business if not locked up.

mia

Thanks for all the input so far.

The exact wording written on the lease order is:

"Car must be picked up by end of Sept. If dealer does not find either of 2 choices DP refunded."

Today, 10/3, I received a call from my salesman who proceeds to tell me that he *thinks* they may have found me a car. One problem; he's going out of town for a few days so he's putting another salesman at his dealership in charge of tracking down my vehicle and getting it to his dealership. Needless to say I have yet to get a commitment as to when they'll have a firm delivery date let alone a VIN.

murray53

There are too many variables to consider when buying any used vehicle. You need to look at the various web sites which give you average prices based on age, mileage, and condition and also look at the price of a similar vehicle purchased new today. In most cases that will give you a pretty good idea of what you should pay. The rest depends on how well the car performs on your test drive and if possible a mechanic's inspection. Any normal wear items which might need immediate replacement such as tires and brakes should be reflected in the amount you offer. You need to be especially careful when buying a used truck or van because they are often subjected to hard use and neglect and as a result need expensive repairs.

Kirstie_H

drift, you are welcome to exchange that info here if you'd like. I think a lot of us would be interested in how this situations is resolved. Thanks!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

driftracer

shellbert

I hope someone can help point me in the right direction.

I purchased a new '05 Toyota Corolla from a dealer in the LA, Calif. area just under a month ago with 2 miles showing on the odometer. After driving it a bit I noticed a few things that seemed not right, including the fact that the car seemed to vibrate slightly/had a rough idle at stop lights and on the freeway. Something just "didn't seem right" for a new car.

Finally made time to take it into a Toyota dealer yesterday that is nearer to my home than the original dealer.
 
After test driving the car against one of their '05's they confirmed that the car had something wrong with it. Further inspection apparently revealed the car had been in an accident because according to their written account "many of the parts in the front had been replaced." When I returned to the dealership, the service advisor informed me that the right front fender was mis-aligned and most parts on the front of the car had been removed and replaced. He showed me that bolts had wrench marks on the heads and that the battery, hold down, ground snaps, and headlights all had been removed. I got it all in writing on the invoice.

Hoping to get some input before talking with Toyota tomorrow.

Thank you!

stickguy

It's quite commmon for cars to get minor damage intransit that the dealer has to fix before they go on sale. I'm not a dealer, but my understanding is that it is usually small stuff like a paint touch up, or ding pop. Your case sounds like it is pushing the limits though.

More than likely toyota can't do much more than lean on the dealer to make the customer happy. If you dealt with a reputable dealer (another reason to buy at a quality operation, even if they are a few $ higher than a meat market store), they should want to rectify the situation.

IMO, if the car is that new, they should do something to get you into a different unit. Of course, someone knew about the damage (since it was repaired), and if the dealer did it and did not disclose it, it pretty much tells you what their business practice is.

sbaker

Sorry, but I can't imagine attacking the trusted friend is typically going to garner a dealer many points with a buyer. A salesperson attempted a similar ploy once while I was playing "1st base". I had essentially managed to stonewall any deal above a predetermined threshold. A task that was far easier for me then the buyer who already was emotionally attached to the new vehicle. Eventually, the "closer" that was brought in chastised me for being the only thing stopping a deal. Well duh!!! Not only did I not shut up, I suggested we might be better served elsewhere. Again, a move easier for me to initiate then the buyer. We promptly went down the road and got the same car for below threshold and with far less pain.

barolenr

I just helped my daughter buy a 2003 Honda Civic from a dealer in Silver Spring Md (DCars). I saw the vehicle on the internet, asked the list of questions you suggested, (what to look for in a used car) and they agreeded to negotiate. My husband and I went to drive the car and we agreed to reasonable offer. They accepted contingent that my mechanic checked the car over and was satisfied with the car. A few days later I went to the dealership to buy the car, alone and I got them to lower the price a bit more ( my mechanic said it needed two rear tires.) and $100.00 more was taken off because they would not replace the tires. While signing the papers they first spelled my street name wrong, then the color of the car was wrong and he wrote 4 doors instead of 2 and I said I did not want their extended warrantee. I even signed a form stating I did not want the warrantee. The last form I went to sign he had entered the $1,2000.oo extended warantee price on the paper work (accidentially!). What were they really trying to do? How can they get away with that. I am proud of catching every mistake but what did they hope to gain by this? She loves the car and it has another 2 years on the Honda warrantee so I felt I made a good decision.

stickguy

the details (color, etc.) sound like they were just sloppy, but as long as they get the VIN correct, it really doesn't matter. The warranty issue could be just more sloppiness (they just forgot to take it off), although it could be done on purpose (who knows how many people might not even notice), but I doubt a large dealer would be able to do that on a regular basis and get away with it for long.

isellhondas

I agree, and I always try to win over the first baseman. If the first baseman takes a dislike to a salesperson they will blow the deal every time.

I remember once, however, I had a very combative smart aleck of a first baseman. It seemed like he was only along to cause trouble. We were unable to put a deal together and not even close.

As they left, he made a final wisecrack so I told him..." If you were trying to help your friend NOT buy a car, you did a good job!"

The buyer returned two hours without her little helper and bought the carwith a minimum of fuss.

She did have to finally turn off her cell phone because the little pest kept calling to find out what was going on!

bowke28

what you did is fine...like i said, a true helper doesnt hurt anything. its the people (men, mostly) that have to show off to their wife/sister/mother/etc... and have no clue what they are talking about.

kyfdx

I've been the "first baseman" a number of times (big surprise, huh?). I usually keep my trap shut and just listen.. I find that usually just me being there keeps most of the BS out of the deal. I may ask a specific question or two, just to clarify a situation.. But, most of my advice to the buyer happens outside, in private.

My ultimate goal is to help the person buy a car for a fair price.... And, we've gone over most of the basics about F&I, etc., before we get to the dealership.. I also never make the final decision.. I let the buyer know what I think, but then support whatever decision they make.. My job is to make the purchase less stressful, not more..

If you aren't there to help, stay home.. is my general philosphy.

regards,
kyfdx

perception

Barolenr, I know what dealership you went to and that's just modus operandi for them. We don't even do dealer trades any longer with any of their franchises. That's a shame too because they have often had vehicles I needed but I learned when I first came to this store that we do NOT do trades with D******. For some inexplicable reason, they manage to stay in business with their practices.

I had a friend of mine refer a customer to me who was OBVIOUSLY lied to by someone at that dealership in regards to a pre-owned vehicle and I pointed it out to the guy. He said that they had been totally dishonest because he went into finance and found the payment they quoted him had jumped $150 with an interest rate hike as well. I told him to come see me because we had a vehicle similar to the one they were selling with less miles and a slightly higher cost. He stated that he still wanted to go back to them. I was incredulous and asked him why on earth he'd do something as stupid as that and he said it was because their price was lower. I was floored. I knew then that people can out and out lie to people and still get that's person's business as long as the price is "low." Riiiiiiiight . . .

People only have price on their brains a lot of the time and forget things like service, honesty, integrity and the like. But that's the American Way.

thedave

On Saturday, after being worn down in submission, I finally agreed on a deal to buy a used 2000 Montero Sport with 43,000 miles for 11,900 plus TTL and 3rd party leather which brings the total up to $13,200. I put down a $500 deposit and agreed to pay cash for the remainder . From Saturday night till this morning( Monday) we've been having a severe case of buyer's remorse.

My wife wants the 2002 Pathfinder LS that we found at Autonation. It has 53,000 miles on it and they are listing it for $17,500. She likes the drive alot better because it drives more like my Avalon.

Question 1: Can I rescind this deal and get my deposit back?
Question 2: What's the better choice, 2000 Montero Sport or 2002 Nissan Pathfinder?
Question 3: What's the best aftermarket 3rd party extended warranty program ?

I look forward to a response as soon as possible.

Isellhondas has replied in the general formum and has been a big help. I wanted to throw this out to others as well.

Thanks,

the dave ,in Texas

mfullmer

My thoughts.

If you signed a purchase agreement and they have sent the car out for the leather then you are out of luck. There is no "cooling off period" with vehicle purchases.

Why would you go online and look for another car after you agreed to purchase one already?

thedave

I didn't go online to look for a car afterwards. I did go and check on the 2000 Montero Sport which led to more buyer's remorse. The trade-in value for this car is shown at $8,500. The dealer's retail is shown as $11,500. I paid $13200 wiht the leather upgrade including 6.25% tax, title and License. So, I never really had a chance to study this vehicle except just looking at it and driving it around the block.

 My wife liked the 2002 Pathfinder at the dealer next door better from the beginning. So, it's more or a less a change of heart. They have done nothing with the car. In fact, they are having us take to the third party leather shop.

I have not met with the F&I guy yet. I told them this would be all cash. Extended warranty? Unknown.

Thanks,

the dave

perception

Thedave, I personally would have opted for the Pathfinder but you started really looking after you'd already purchased a car, signing papers and everything and asking them to send it off to have leather seats installed.

I wouldn't usually encourage this or say this, but you put down a deposit and nothing else, right? If you signed the contracts and they sent off the car, then they could legally enforce the contract. They may not go that way though.

Kirstie_H

Why would you go online and look for another car after you agreed to purchase one already?

Analyzing or criticizing that decision now is of no use - it could easily be that the Pathfinder was under considering prior to the sale.

Let's just focus on the issue now presented, even if the only answer is "you're outta luck."

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

ramped

Has the Montero already been sent out for the leather?

If not, you may have a chance to pull out if you forfeit the deposit. Losing $500 isn't easy, but paying for a car you don't want isn't easy, either.

Also, there is a chance that your dealer might be able to find a Pathfinder similar to the one you are interested in. If he can make another deal with you, he might be more likely to allow you to pull out of this one.

Good luck.

bowke28

if you REALLY want to get into the nitty-gritty, the dealer REALLY screwed up by not taking full payment before the leather is installed.

right now, you have not taken delivery of the vehicle, and have not paid for it. you are free to unwind the deal, regardless of if they finished the leather.

it wont be easy, and you MAY not get your deposit back, but i would go get the pathie. isnt $500 worth getting your bride the vehicle she REALLY wants?

dont get me wrong, i think its an extremely touchy subject to unwind a deal like that, but the dealer left themselves open for it by not insisting on full payment. i hope they learn their lesson.

if they havent done the leather yet, you are entitled to your full deposit. if they have, then you will have to forfeit the deposit.

kyfdx

Amazingly... I agree with bowke28 exactly. If they have sent the car out for the aftermarket leather, you may not get your deposit back.. but, if they haven't, they have to refund it (doesn't mean that they won't drag their feet).

Also, if you are unhappy with this deal (and I would be as well, but that is another story), you should definitely back out now. I'm betting they haven't sent the Montero out for the leather yet, either.

regards,
kyfdx