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  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    You run the risk of getting your post 86'd by Kirstie.

    I assume that you are speaking about the RED SOX, I hope they do it again, but I'm not going to hold my breath. Might die and with no CLI, the missues will have to dig into the 400K to pay off the car loans. (She's a (damnned) yankee lover).

    She'd also sell or give away all my cars!
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    Don't know him..

    "I did a quick search on the net and found this at clarkhoward.com:

    • Credit life and disability insurance, also known as "croak and choke," (there's that term again - MAS) is worthless.


    OK, that's one guy's opinion, and I can guarantee that people who had payoffs and loans disappear because of having these policies didn't think it was worthless.

    • It protects the lender if you die or are disabled. It doesn't protect you.

    No, it protects you - the lender has COLLATERAL...your vehicle. If you die and don't make the payments, or you get hurt and can't work and don't make the payments, your car is repossessed. The lender will usually see a fair recovery. Much better than you.

    With the insurance in place, you don't have to freak out about making your wife take two jobs to make the car payments because you hurt your back while installing your new roof.

    With credit life, it pays off the car loan, so your widow doesn't have to - the loan is paid, and she keeps the car - much better than a reposession - benefits the buyer, no? Sounds like a benefit to me!

    • If you're concerned that your family will lose the house if you die, buy a term life insurance policy that pays your loved ones directly. They can decide how to use the money.

    Sure, great idea - let's give this guy credit like he's the first one who has ever thought of that....

    • Credit life insurance is far more expensive than term life insurance."

    OK, and your point? Premiun fuel costs more than regular - it's a different product with a different use.

    You know, I have a lot of opinions, and my full-time job pays me to issue opinions in reports and in court. Perhaps I should write a consumer awareness book, too, and get paid like Clark Howard...
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,650
    Yeah... but who is going to buy the book, when we are getting it here, for free?

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  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Clark & Jim... dueling opinionists :)

    I think we're at the point where we can safely say that credit life insurance is not for everyone. It's not for NO ONE either.

    My vehicle is worth more than I owe on it (and should be til I pay it off). Thus, if I die my spouse will get rid of it, and could make the payment until he sold it. So, credit life on my vehicle isn't for me.

    My husband's vehicle is leased. If he dies, I'm stuck with 28 months left on the lease. If he dies, I want the vehicle's lease payment to be the very least of my worries. I don't want to wait for a payout of his life insurance. So, credit life on his vehicle IS for me. It makes it simple - he dies, they pay.

    Can't we simply agree that there's no absolute "right" here, and that CLI works for some and not for others? Personally, I think that's the sensible approach.

    Or, continue to beat the subject into the ground if that's your bag.

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  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    cross section of society...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Or, continue to beat the subject into the ground if that's your bag.

    lol, I have a high tolerance but this tread (that I read for fun) is making me yearn for my vacation. And I'm married, no kids and no life insurance.

    Steve, Host
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    I do, though, hate absolutes and generalizations, and when opinions like "it's worthless" are given, without consideration that many people won't take a loan without CLI or Disability, the absolute doesn't apply.

    I'm not trying to sell CLI or disability here, I certainly have no stake in this in any way. I just hate generalizations without basis.

    It's like saying "black cars are worthless". If I still lived on the Texas Gulf Coast, I'd immediately agree - I live in the Northeast now, and guess what - I have a black car.

    We all have opinions, and some folks, like Clark Howard and myself, get paid for rendering them in an official manner. Opinions are great, but it doesn't mean that my opinion is the Gospel and the only way to do something.

    Having an attitude that "my opinion is the only one worth anything" is fairly narrow minded and quickly takes the education and fun out of any debate or discussion.
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    I am over 40, have high cholesterol and diabetes. Guess what? Term ins. is expensive for me. In a few years, the credit life ins. will be comperable to the term rate.

    And some people (Homer Simpson) can not get life insurance.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ... **Can't we simply agree that there's no absolute "right" here, and that CLI works for some and not for others? Personally, I think that's the sensible approach** ...

    Bingo.!



    Some people say Toemotoes, some say tomatoes .. what works for one, doesn't work for another ... lets move on, or I will be yearning for the vacation I just left -- move over Steve ......................... :...{

    Terry.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,650
    Aw..come on.. NOBODY say "toemotoes".. ;-)

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  • mitzijmitzij Member Posts: 613
    maybe I used the wrong word here. My policy is called a 20-pay policy. I pay for 20 years, then it is paid up. I started paying about 14 years ago, so I have 6 to go. I thought it was called a 'whole life' policy, but I'm not sure. I am sure it will be paid up (unless I drop soon) well before my family needs to use it.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ...... Some folks say Carambola's and some say Car'ambola's ........................... ;)

    Terry.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Is a talk show host with a lot of opinions.

    They are his OPINIONS only. As with most talk show hosts I agree with SOME of his opinions.

    They aren't gospel.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,650
    At the risk of getting my hand slapped in continuing this discussion...

    Yes, you have whole life... I assumed you had just taken out the policy and expected it to be paid up in six years... If your 20 years is up, you are correct... it is paid up for life.

    So, scratch #2 above.. I stand by the rest of it..

    regards,
    kyfdx

    (I have CAR insurance, also.. to stay on topic)

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  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    OK forget clark howard and ralph nader too (George and I thank you Ralph).

    I still don't see anybody disputing what the Ohio Dept of Insurance stated:

    "As you get older, the cost of buying regular life insurance rises. But in most cases, it is very expensive to buy a small credit life policy as a substitute for regular life insurance protection."

    It's your money. Youwant to waste it on CLI, be my guest.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    driftracer,

    You're mixing up CLI and CDI (credit disability ins) here. CDI is even MORE expensive than CLI.

    The only reason i put that small post first is because google showed it first when i searched on the phrase.

    Sure CLI pays off the car if you die, but regular ins pays too and doesn't cost as much in premiums. For the premium on a single $25,000 car loan that will ONLY pay off a car, and will DECREASE the payment as the loan pays down, most people can get $200,000 of term life.

    Who would want to do the former?????

    Already have $200,000 insurance but that's not enough for the the car too, then add another $50,000.00 for about $5.00 per month, HALF the cost of the 25,000.00 CLI!!!!

    Do the math...

    The fuel analogy is not applicable. Run regular fuel in a vehicle that requires premium and you'll blow a hole in a piston (I've seen it happen to friends). Run premium in a car that runs on regular and you're wasting 20 cents per gallon, but you won't ruin the engine.
  • asafonovasafonov Member Posts: 401
    • Credit life insurance is far more expensive than term life insurance."

    OK, and your point? Premiun fuel costs more than regular - it's a different product with a different use.


    This, I believe, is a bad analogy. The purpose of life insurance is to pay off the policyholder's obligations and/or provide for his/her family after his/her death. Both term life (as well as whole life and a bunch of variations on these) and CLI fulfil these purposes, CLI is just (usually, not always - see manamal's post) considerably more expensive.

    A better analogy would be getting bulk grocery at a wholesaler vs. buying the same stuff in small packages at 7/11, at a higher unit price.For people who cannot, using Terry's immortal words, "buy a steam off a hotdog," the latter may be the only alternative - ditto for CLI.

    I absolutely agree that for the otherwise uninsurable (no company plan, cannot pass a health exam) CLI is an option.
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    While not for most folks, CLI & CDI may be for some. If the F&I guy/gal didn't offer it, they wouldn't be doing their job.

    My own credit union slipped this in on me on my last loan with them, which I caught a few months in to the loan, and then "politely" let 'em have it and got everything back. I even had the paper work showing I had declined it.
  • kscctsksccts Member Posts: 140
    Paid up would only apply if the ongoing dividends pay the yearly premium. If not then the insurance company will come back to you for the difference.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    We sure are!

    But it's like the two service station guys from It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world - it keeps coming back for more!
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,650
    Not on a straight whole-life policy.. Only with variable whole-life..

    I have a guaranteed 20 year whole-life policy with Prudential.. My mommy took it out on me when I was 13 years old.. It has been paid up ever since I was 33... No premiums due.. The dividends are all mine....

    regards,
    kyfdx

    (I'm really trying to quit.. honest..)

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  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    (I'm really trying to quit.. honest..)

    It's like a room full o' crack addicts in here :) Let's try the cold turkey approach. If no one gets withdrawal symptoms within the next 24 hours, we'll call the program a success. A full refund will be issued to those for whom this program does not work.

    Seriously, are there any actual questions for a car dealer?

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  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    with a car loan, the cost (set by each state) is the same for a 30 year old as it is for a 60 year old....food for thought.
  • manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    I have cancer with a 40%mortality rate within two years, so I decide to buy my dream car....
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    Looks like we're addicted :-)

    There's the "benefit" of regulation for ya. The state sets a maximum allowable CLI premium, and everyone instantly charges the maximum.

    I think I had previously stated that CLI premiums were at a group rate, not an indivudual rate.

    Actually i have to go meet with some bankers (uugh!) so you'll all be free from the ill effects my overactive keyboard for the night!

    'til then:

    My question would be, why even offer this unless a lender "required" some form of insurance - which as the Ohio Dept of Ins states, can be satisfied with an appropriate amount of regular (term or whole) life insurance?

    Is that OK Kirstie ? ;-)
  • prdmprdm Member Posts: 145
    I ordered a car from the factory. It arrived today and I'm picking it up Friday. The dealer has already applied their advertising sticker to the back. I asked the salesman to remove it and he reluctantly said he would see what he could do. This isn't mandatory to have, right?
  • jpvwaudijpvwaudi Member Posts: 139
    Speaking for my store only, we never have a problem with that. Stickers are terrible, in my opinion; we use license plate brackets.....
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    Something I've always done, for two reasons, one more recently - first, back in 1978 when my dad was picking up his special ordered Chamois with Fawn interior Ford Fairmont (had a 302, though), the dealer in Weimar, TX had the big chrome badge stuck on the back, plus a chrome license plate frame.

    Dad didn't wash his cars or change the oil (another story), but he certainly wasn't going to polish chrome that wasn't already on the car from the factory.

    He told the salesman to remove it, and the sales manager came out, asking that since he gave my dad a good price, why not help them out with a little advertising.

    My dad said "I'm not advertising for anyone for free - if you GIVE me the car, you can put two of those badges on it and I'll wear your store t-shirt once a week". They took it off, of course.

    The second reason is now that I investigate dealer fraud and lemon law cases for a living, I don't want to publicly endorse any particular dealer, especially since I may investigate their business practices at some point. Investigating them, and having their license plate frame on my car or truck would certainly conflict, especially at first glance.

    No, you don't have to have their badges or stickers on your car - being a former car biz manager, I'd say that if you don't mind, I'm sure they'd appreciate keeping them on the car, though.
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    You know, I see a lot fewer dealer's stickers than I used to. Ever since the 80's, we don't even have to tell the dealers to not put a sticker on.

    They almost always put on a license plate holder with their name on it, and that is fine with me.
  • cadillacmikecadillacmike Member Posts: 543
    At least they didn't screw it on with two cheap screws like a chevy dealer did to me back in 1987. Caused the entire corner of the trunk to rust through!

    You can insist that it be removed brfore accepting it for delivery.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    and the ability to remove it, most dealers don't use screw-on or rivet-on badges any more -
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    if you're reading this on your day off, can you drop me an e-mail with the status of the GTO deal? Trying to plan days off for my wife and I for Friday..thanks.
  • peterdh2000peterdh2000 Member Posts: 54
    it's funny, in the NW (whole west coast maybe) it is _very_ rare for a dealer to put a dealer sticker/badge on a car. in fact, I can't recall ever seeing a dealer in WA state putting one on.

    OTOH, when I was living in New Orleans, it seemed every local dealer put one on, and since it was a college/party town, most cars with out of state plates had dealer stickers on them as well. they ranged from subtle to outrageous. one N.O. dealer put "royal" on the back of the vehicle in a strange gangster tattoo script that was literally 5 inches high and as wide. I'd have gone at it with a putty knife the minute I got home.

    nicest i saw was a small cursive "plaza" from a dealer group in St. Louis. I mighta let them leave it on my car. anything else i'd set the lot guy with a hairdryer to pry it off.
  • boomer1bboomer1b Member Posts: 316
    A bud of mine has a 80s Monte Carlo SS that came from Texas. It has a HUGE chrome dealer emblem shaped like the state of Texas on the trunk lid.

    Pretty sure its David McDavid dealership......

    Am I correct?
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    I used to work for them in Irving - Mr McDavid has it going on in Texas, with stores in DFW, Austin, and Houston, and a few others sprinkled around.

    Funny story - in 1993, I was driving across the Wind River Indian Reservation between Lander and Riverton (Wyoming). I lived in Riverton, worked in Lander. I came up on an Olds Cutlass and it had a Bill Wiggins Chevrolet sticker on it. That dealership is in the town I graduated from, West Columbia, a 2500 population town in Texas (South of Houston). I went to school with Bill's son Jay.

    What are the chances of seeing a decal from that dealership, that town, by me, on an Indian reservation 1800 miles away?....strange....
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I've been reading about Malcolm Bricklin and his new venture with Chery Automotive. He's asking dealers to pony up $15 million for a franchise. Is that number in line with any manufacturer?
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Seems awfully high to me.
    Does this include price of the land and buildings, or just the "franchise"?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I don't know. According to all I've read is that dealer candidates would be looking at a $15 million dollar investment. I would presume that includes the facility.

    But this is sticking in my head: I thought I read that the dealers would invest in the company, Visionary Vehiles, and the company would own the stores. IIRC, the stores would have a drive in theatre and many amenities.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    Malcolm Bricklin $5 for lunch at McDonald's, much less risking $15 million on him...
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ............... $15 mill ...? this from the man that brought you Yugo, busted 3 banks and ducked and weaved from Subaru for over 3 years ... he's already had about 200 NO's ...

    He'll have more luck finding Leprechauns on St. Pattys Day than getting $15 million, especially with his *wonderful* reputation ...... it better have 30 acres off the interstate and a large "up and running" Ford store doing 400 units a month for $15 million ~ and his name on -none- of the paperwork .......... ;^}

    Terry.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    I'm with Terry...the guy is certifiable to think dealers are going to line up for this gem.
  • osubeavosubeav Member Posts: 56
    I bought a new Silverado yesterday. One of the rebates was a $1000 for financing with GMAC. Since it was a horrible rate (7.49 for 6 years), I made it clear that I would refinance as soon as I could. The dealer told that was no problem, as long as I made 3 payments.

    I checked beforehand with GMAC and they told me I could refinance whenever I wanted and there would be no penalty regarding the rebate. I told the dealer this and they said that I wouldn't be affected but they would be charged the $1000 back.

    Signing papers, I read through everything carefully and found nothing about paying for a certain amount of time from GMAC or the dealer. That seems odd, like it's the honor system or something.

    So, is it true they will get charged back? I kind of suspect it's more that they get some extra money if I stay on the loan.

    Since it's not in the contract, I could just say "Sucks to be them" and refinance now, but I live in an isolated small town. The next closest dealer is 90 miles away and I don't want to be in a spitting match with the dealer in town.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    "Who did your market research?

    We're not there yet. Right now we're going by instinct."


    His instincts are pretty much worthless, so we're starting at a negative property for "something to go on"...

    "If I compete with the BMW 3, I want the performance of a BMW 3, I want the ride of a BMW 3 - except I want it to have more power and look more luxurious.

    But instead of selling it for $35,000 plus, I want to sell that car for $19,000 retail"


    And for starters, we're going to kick BMW to the curb with their unpopular, underpowered, 3-series...

    This guy has to be smoking crack or something to think like this. This is how Pink Floyd's songs were written.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    ...Bricklin says each store will turn 4,000 cars a year. That's good isn't it? :)

    I have to laugh at no research done, dealers getting a no charge franchise with Visionary owning 10% of the dealership, and they are less than 2 years from launch with nothing except an idea.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,650
    that an M3 now goes for $60K, not $35K plus...

    I really think that Malcolm should go back on his meds...

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  • scantyscanty Member Posts: 164
    that the Plaza Motors logo is the best dealer decal out there.

    Small world note; I worked with the graphic designer who came up with that logo when I was an intern in high school.
  • typhon1991typhon1991 Member Posts: 64
    regarding the bonus cash with the standard GMAC Financing. You can pay off the loan as soon as GMAC has it booked. You have to pay a small processing fee around $35 I think and the amount of interest accrued to the payoff date. The F&I guy dosen't want you to pay it off because he will be charged back his finance reserve. I don't know how much better of a rate you will get on a 72 month loan. That rate sounds a little high but resonable. As soon as you get your payment book in the mail, call GMAC for your payoff and then send them a check.
  • osubeavosubeav Member Posts: 56
    Thanks. I can currently get 5.5% on a 72 month (even on a refi), but with interest rates going up, I don't want to wait any longer than I have to.

    So, GMAC doesn't charge back the $1000 to the dealer, as I was told? I figured if it was true that somewhere they would have made me sign something - to wait 90 days or else.

    What is a finance reserve?
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    I have seen McDavids' logos all over the country - I think that DC was the first place that I ever seen one. Sure are hard to miss.
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