Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Any Questions for a Car Dealer?
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I changed my e-mail address to make it public on your other question. I will get that info for you tonight if you send me the info.
Mary
If I were you, I'd go to your bank/credit union or to an on-line loan source like eloan and see if their terms are better than the dealer's finance. Dealers can sometimes beat other lending institutions on interest rates. That's the only reason to have the dealership arrange the financing for you. Once you get approval from another source (outside of the dealership), you can then tell the dealer to "erase" the extra $1,000 to "guarantee" your loan. That's purely dealer "fluff" profit.
Now, if your credit is shaky, all bets are off. Plus, you probably shouldn't be looking at $30K cars to begin with if that's the case.
Or just go to another dealer to buy the car. I don't like "shady" deals like the one you described.
Now try to find an honest dealer. I bet some are out there.
My guess is they will change their tune, but the damage has already been done. If you can't trust them in the F&I office, you certainly can't trust them with service after the sale.
I think you need a sit down with the General Manager.
GM will be in tomorrow. Saleslady has been great, but she says she can't do anything without the GM (understandable).
Got a meeting with the Service Mgr. this afternoon. He told me on the phone yesterday that everything was within spec and that their test drive turned up nothing. Maybe yes, maybe no. Fact is, I know what happened to ME when the failure occured.
I'm of the belief that jumping up and down making a scene benefits no one. So, my question to you, since you've been in this biz for awhile, should I stick to my guns and ask for another vehicle? Particularly given the fact that the service people found no problems?
The Truck was a week old yesterday. Toyota service has had it half that time (and put unknown amount of miles on it, but they towed it with 100 miles on the odo). Can they unwind the deal? I'll let them replace it with another Tacoma, but I have no faith in this particular truck.
I'm thinking they will try to say that they will "unwind" the deal if I pony up a bunch of money. Of course, that's unacceptable to me. I would accept another truck with no more cash on my end, however. I doubt they are going to want to do that, though.
In your opinion, what are my options here?
I can see this going to the Region Rep. But no guaratees on that end, either. Plus, that'll probably take even longer. In truth, I like this dealer with the exception of this issue. On the other hand, I don't feel safe with this particular truck.
I know, I should have bought the Ridgeline!!!!!!
And, yeah...you SHOULD have bought a Ridgeline!
-Jason
I agree about not causing a scene, but I don't give them the loaner back, or drive off in that truck, until it is resolved.. I would be firm on that point.
regards,
kyfdx
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if they take it back, they are admitting there may be something unsafe with the vehicle... if that's the case, i don't think a smart dealer would put it in the used car lot and try to resell it. unless i'm way off, i think they'd be liable if it occurred again and someone got hurt or killed.
i agree that the truck should be replaced, but toyota should eat the cost.
I have no idea what they'd do with a truck with 100 miles that's probably already been titled (although, I certainly haven't received the title yet). I'd doubt very seriously they'd put it back on the lot. Toyota would probably have to get involved and buy it back from the dealer. That means at least the Regional Rep will have to get involved, if not someone higher than that with Toyota.
I'm looking for a quick resolution. My guess is, that won't happen. I have an appt with the service mgr today and the GM is supposed to get back to me tomorrow.
We'll see what happens from there.
Thanks for everyone's input.
I always get concerned when I purchase a new vehicle that those first miles are the hardest on the engine because it is not broken in at all and it is being used as a test drive vehicle (a lot of full throttle acceleration to "see what it can do").
What is the average amount of miles on the new cars that all of you see/buy? How much is too much?
Thanks in advance for your responses.
They just don't want to say so given the situation.
Average on a new car? 12-50.
Cars that have been dealer traded may have 200 miles or more. Not a big deal to me or to most customers.
I know that every time I read on these boards about someone slamming on the brakes, and the car accelerated!!, I chalk it up to driver error.. Especially, if they are going in reverse..
But, if your foot is on the pedal, and your car stops just by running over the concrete curb, you obviously weren't stepping on the accelerator... Plus, his description of the brake pedal to the floor feel doesn't sound like a mis-placed foot, either..
regards,
kyfdx
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It's a vary rare situation, but it happens .... I would also lose any confidence in a situation like that, especially if they couldn't duplicate the situation, find a warped brake, a busted hose (did you forget to tell them about your wooden leg.?) whatever ....... nicely, calmly get with the dealer principle or the GM and discuss the facts .. the vehicle is new and it would be nothing for them to pull it back and give you one like it -- Good customer relations.! .... if not, then start at the top with the Toyota regional manager .... sorry to hear about the problem .... :sick:
Maybe you were wearing your high heels that day ...????
Terry.
Even better, put it in demo and write it down and then sell it used after they put a few thousand miles on it without another brake incident and disclose the situation.
This isn't a hard problem here. Come on guys, give me a hard one to solve...this can be fun.
all the dealer has to do is pray a prospective buyer doesn't kill himself while going on one of those demo rides where the brakes won't have another "incident".
The problem reappears only this time someone gets seriously injured or killed.
Do they sell it to someone with a disclosure?
" THE FIRST PERSON WHO BOUGHT THIS TRUCK STATED THE BRAKES FAILED SUDDENLY BUT WE CAN'T GET THIS TO HAPPEN....PLEASE SIGN HERE ADKNOWLEDGING THAT WE HAVE INFORMED YOU OF THIS!"
:confuse:
the answer is: absolutely and I would disclose it just like that.
just kidding - but i had to throw that in :-P
i'd go right to toyota and tell them of your issue - hopefully they are good enough to help you out here!
-thene
it may be a one time only incident or an intermitant problem which they can't diagnose till it happens again.
only thing i'm sure of is it's a lawyer's dream if it happens again and someone is hurt or killed.
i think toyota should be happy to buy this vehicle back so they can check it out.
This truck is an automatic, right? (I don't remember) There is zero chance that it was the clutch pedal that went to the floor, rather than the brake, and/or that a stall was involved, right? (I don't mean to suggest that is what happened, but wondering if the dealer thought that was what happened. Just checking facts.)
His family may disagree...
I have no doubt the situation happened as he described.
Still, my entire working career has been spent in and aroung the automotive field and I have never heard of a situation like this. It sounds like a defective master cylinder but a master cylinder doesn't suddenly heal itself.
And it's a dual stage master so he should have had brakes on at least two wheels.
Maybe this should be moved to the Maintenance forum where there are people there a lot smarter than I am when it comes to such matters.
I think the best course of action would be to give him a new truck and sell the old one with a disclosure.
They can say..." Some guy brought it back after 100 miles swearing he had a brake failure. We think he had no such failure at all....We have had six ASE trained technicians inspect and drive the truck. The Regional Rep looked at it and our Service Manager used it as his personal truck for two weeks...we have deeply discounted the truck but you will sign this form stating that you know as much as we know....Sign Here, please....
Some will be afraid and someone else will quickly snap it up if there is money to be saved.
I really don't know how this is going to turn out. Took the "tech" on a ride. Brake pedal went all the way to the floor, but had enough brake "pressure" that the truck would stop, eventually. It didn't happen every time I touched the brakes, but probably 1/2 the time. Tech looked at what was happening and said..."well, this unit has "brake by wire" (huh?) and they all go to the floor like that....unless I notice a total brake failure, I have to say we can't duplicate the problem".
Then, found the Service Manager. He said that it was "unusual" for the brake pedal to go all the way to the floor, that they had to observe "total brake failure" in order to know what to do. He said I was welcome to take the truck home and contact them if it ever happens again. Obviously, I'm not feeling real good about this situation right now. Maybe call them from a hospital bed and tell them it happened again?
So, they didn't observe the total brake failure I encountered, but did observe the brake pressure being weak and the pedal going all the way to the floor (how could they not notice this when they drove it?). From talking to the tech, they didn't even put it on the lift....just drove it. Still kind of flabbergasted that they'd let me take it home after what they observed. I left it at the dealership.
GM is supposed to call me tomorrow. Logged a call with the NHTB and Toyota Customer Service.
Don't know where to go from here but thanks for the help, nonetheless.
isell, alfox, kyfdx and Terry...my family would disagree with you that I'm anywhere near "right minded".
....and who ratted me out that I wear "heels"?
I'm glad to hear Terry say that about "[..] nothing for them to pull it back and give you one like it".
I agree that the people at the dealership are probably getting a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions and think you want "out".
That perception is working against you. Two things you can do about it:
- Calmly explain again what happened. Tell them you'd be perfectly happy with another, different Tacoma. That *should* take care of the "buyer's remorse" theory, but some people have a hard time processing new information.
- Provide references. I could give the names of four or five dealers/salesfolks who could say "he bought from me, no problems" or "he bought from me, something came up, handled like grownups".
That may sound silly, but it's worth a thought. Some people will go to great lengths to undo a car deal. Make sure they understand you are not one of them.
Good luck,
-Mathias
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
When I test drove the truck I actually ended up buying, the brakes didn't act anywhere near the way they are behaving now. Bought it on a Wednesday (brakes were fine), brake failure the following Sunday. Subsequent drive with the tech yesterday showed, at best, something was wrong (pedal going all the way to the floor with weak pressure). I was dismayed the tech dismissed it so casually.
Actually, I've bought 2 cars and the Tacoma from this dealership over many years. I bought an Avalon about 7 years ago for my (then) wife from the owner's daughter who was a salesperson at the time (now running the OH dealerships). Bought a Camry before that. Never had a complaint. While it was a long time ago and I doubt she'll remember me, I'll give her a jingle as someone who can provide a "reference" for me.
I'm sure they have people wanting to "unwind" deals all the time for multitudes of reasons that aren't very legitimate. It's easy to say but, I'm not one of those. I'm trying to convince them of that, however. Guess I'm paying for other's past "sins". I'm sure the perception is working against me.
I was concerned that the tech said the brakes aren't connected via some sort of linkage, but "by wire". I know there's steering and throttle by wire, but not the brakes. I could be wrong, but that still wouldn't explain a total brake failure.
So far, I've told the sales manager, the sales person and the service manager that I have no faith in this truck, but would gladly take another just like it. I invited all of them to drive it and truthfully tell me it's "OK". As best I can tell, the only person that's driven it is the "tech" and he wasn't much help.
Per everyone's instructions, I've been pleasant, but firm. In fairness, everyone at the dealership has been very nice stating they will "get me taken care of". But, so far, all I've heard is words, no action.
I've logged my concerns with Toyota Customer Service and the NHTSA. Supposedly, someone will get back to me within 3 working days. We'll see. Right now we're at a stalemate.
Thanks everyone for your support. I've been a poster here at Edmunds for a while. It never ceases to amaze me how folks, especially some of you "old timers", rally around when someone needs something. You guys/gals are just a wealth of information and solid advice. More importantly, you are genuinely good people.
I'd love to see Edmunds invite some of us frequent posters for a "round table" sometime at their facility.
Hey Karl, you listening? Do you think the auto companies might be interested in what we'd have to say? I bet they would!
And now for my question. I was at a dealer introduction of the Subaru Tribeca last night, and spent time with my salesman for my wifes Subaru. Good time and all that. I currently lease an 04 Subaru that comes off lease in 12 months. Love the car, but plan to lease another in that line next year. Likely the new Forester. Neat car. Anyway.
My salesman and I discuss possible lease opportunities, via Subaru or elsewhere. He suggests that I might be better off with a purchase and balloon payment at the end. As he describes, same benefits at end of agreement as a lease, but with title being in MY name as opposed to a finance company, I would not have the same restrictions as I could sell or trade before the end of the agreement.
Well, that's all well and good, but it strikes me as more beneficial to a dealer than to me. I lease for a few reasons, and have my eyes wide open about it. One of the things I like about leasing is that, unless you really screw up by driving over mileage limits or things like that, it's almost impossible to be upside down financially. I know that someone COULD get that way, but not if you do this right.
So my question is this. Is there any TRUE benefit to a purchase with balloon at the end, as compared to a lease, that I'm not aware of? Keep the above paragraph in mind. If I'm missing something, I'd like to be made aware of it.
Many thanks as always.
-Dan-
-Dan-
By the way, there are way too many Dan's here right now.
-Dan-
I see a big benefit to a dealer. A dealer could conceivably offer a great deal on a new car earlier than if I held out to the end of a lease. Ergo, over time, they sell more cars to me. If I get the car buying bug, I could be susceptible to that. I know myself well enough. Leasing, to me anyway, helps enforce some discipline in the whole process.
Is there an acquisition fee in balloon financing? If not, that would save me a few bucks also.
Yup, lots of Dans. Kind of strange. Who volunteers to change their name?
-Dan-
The balloons that our manufacturers offer do not have acq fees or end of term dispo fees.
How about I change my name to George Patton? Dante? Amadeus? Joe Montana? Ron Jeremy?
Heck, to spare the gang here, does anyone know of a website that I can research these questions on my own.
-Dan-
She isn't using it, anymore..
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The only thing you're doing is deferring a large part of the financial responsibility to the end of the contract with a balloon payment.
From what I understand (there are certainly more knowledgeable sources here), on a balloon arrangement, you negotiate the price of your vehicle, select the length of the contract, and defer a major part of the payments to the end of the contract (or renew the contract). Lease is similar with the exeption of there's a given value put on the vehicle by the lending source at the end of the contract.
Either way, you're upside down during the contract length since you are not paying on the entire loan amount for entire vehicle during the contract. Plus, they add some hefty fees from the lending institution for the privilege, on top of the price of the vehicle. That's why I don't like them.
There's something called carbuyingtips.com (at least I think that's whay it is) that has some spreadsheets available to figure it all out. While I don't agree with their adversarial negotiation strategies, there are some good financial tools there.