Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

ddelise

I noticed, and you noticed, and many people here on Edmunds noticed. But I think overall we are the minority. For many people who either are afraid to negotiate/negotiate poorly - this is a very good deal - for them.

Also, as to this plan making the car more expensive for GM employees - this is kind of the case. I understand that in certain areas where there is a high concentration of GM employees some rebates are greater than the general area. This is put in place to alleviate this specific concern.

jasmith52

Plus, some of the deals are truly cheap

Oh Yeah - Name one deal that you couldn't have had last month at about the same price ?

I agree that this latest marketing scheme may be good for people who hate to bargain. They won't pay more than the last deal.

kyfdx

Saab 9-2X.. It went down around $600-$800 from the deal the month before.. Even after taking into account the lack of the $1000 hotbutton cash...

.... I knew it was coming...

jasmith52

That car was indeed a special situation last month. GM employees got around $10k off of the Saab 92-X Aero (uplevel trimline) last month which is much more than anyone can get this month. In addition all GM employees got a flyer showing this great deal. My local Saab dealer claims that this caused nearly all of the 92-X Aero's to be taken and that very few are now available.

Maybe I shoud've got one.

Another sad Saab story...

kyfdx

That's true.. Only one manual transmission 9-2X Aero left in the Dayton/Cincinnati area..

The local sales manager told me that all '05 9-2Xs have reached port.. so, the only available units left are at the dealer or port..

I'm sure there are other isolated models where the deal got substantially better, but most of it was just a marketing ploy (a good one!), and the deals are mostly similar to last month.. I think cash buyers may come out better this month, and financers a little worse in some cases...

regards,
kyfdx

exb0

Thene, did you notice the title of the post that you replied to?

Negotiating "Dealer Service Fee $550"

sasha3372, is not complaining about the price, he/she is complaining about the bogus junk fee. Dealers are not allowed to charge GM Employees any junk fees, why should sasha3372 pay it?

This is yet another example of sleazy tactics that dealers employ, and why consumers don’t trust dealers and will try to squeeze every last dollar out of you.

robr2

This GM employee price tactic is just the latest marketing gimmick from GM not the bargain of the century. I hear that it's generating showroom traffic so I'm afraid that we'll see it again from time to time.

But it's working. The article I read earlier this week has GM's market share up over 5 points (from 25% to almost 31%) in June - that's a 20% increase in share for GM. And to top it off, it's probably more profitable for them.

robr2

sasha3372, is not complaining about the price, he/she is complaining about the bogus junk fee. Dealers are not allowed to charge GM Employees any junk fees, why should sasha3372 pay it?

If I understand the offer correctly, dealers are allowed to charge Non GM Employees a doc fee under this promotion. GM employess still get their normal program.

jasmith52

Just so you know:

As of this year GM allows dealers to charge a "nominal" fee for documentation on their employee sales. This is a change from last year when no doc fees were allowed.

- Now you know

thenebean

if you would also notice, that sasha also asked OTHER questions in her post, to which i was answering. her subject was not the only thing she has a question about.

and as we found out in the following posts, that apparently the GM employee discount does not exempt you from the conveyance fees.

i wouldn't call these sleazy tactics so much as trying to make money (which is what a business is supposed to do). if you don't like a particular dealers fees, go elsewhere - CUSTOMERS have the greatest advantage...their feet!

-thene

kyfdx

I would.. You advertise a price.. it is agreed to... then, when you get in the finance office.. bingo!! Another $500...

If you want to make money, be upfront about it.. Don't try to hide it in a bunch of garbage fees, designed to take advantage of uninformed customers..

regards,
kyfdx

imidazol97

The employee price has worked with a few other businesses in this area (furniture store comes to mind). People kept complaining that GM should do something (each person has their own solution) to move cars. GM did. It's great. I expect to see more real marketing and better cars to market through the upcoming months.

thenebean

well not disclosing the fee is a different story. with our dealer fee, its disclosed up front, and pre printed on the purchase order (the one that is written out BEFORE it goes to the business manager). if they stick it to you later, well that i dont agree with. but, if it is disclosed, "this price does not include tax, registration or dealer conveyance fee of $xxx" then you've been told that that fee does in fact exist. i present all my prices as such:

$30,000 sale price plus sales tax, registration, and dealer conveyance fee.

we dont sneak in mop n glo, vin etching, etc if you dont ask for it.

-thene

mpass

Better cars - that's the real key here. I have owned 2 GMs, one bought with an employee discount provided by a family member and can honestly say that I do not expect to ever own another GM again. The price may be low but the build quality is also low. In my opinion, what I saved up front in acquisition price was more than compensated for by maintenance and repairs. The things just are not built to last. So, build a product that has a low cost to own over its life and maybe you'll be able to market them without giving away the farm. That way, GM can do what it is supposed to do - make and sell cars - and stop worrying about funding its pension and medical plans.

grandtotal

The real effect on prices is that actual GM employees have to pay more for their cars cause the rebates went way down.

I have no problem with that. I have never understood why a GM employee should get a better deal than me (a non-GM employee). I am, after all, subsidising that better deal.

kyfdx

Hmm... If it is just so you can make more money... why not label it: $500 extra profit margin?

Or... Dealer has a boat payment due this month?

Or... The price isn't really $30,000, it is $30,500?

Trust me... from this side of the desk, it is an irritant.. and generates ill will.

regards,
kyfdx

kurtamaxxguy

"I would.. You advertise a price.. it is agreed to... then, when you get in the finance office.. bingo!! Another $500... "

Yup. A dealer did that to me and when mfr. survey time came, I flunked that dealer. They will never sell me a car again.

A dealer has a right to make a profit - how else can they grow? But I expect them to do it fairly, like some dealers posting here do.
For those dealers who must play these stupid games all the way through the sale and try those sneaky little finance manuevers, remember the gouge you make on a customer will not be forgotten.

And believe it or not, I consider factors _as well as_ price when buying a car. How's the dealer's service? How's their general attitude (a sleasy sales unit can mean one will have trouble with other branches too)?

thenebean

well, because its not either of those...its more like...

extra money to help pay overhead costs, benefits, insurance, floorplanning, electric bills, building maintenence...

doesnt really go towards the owners boat...

there are irritants on both sides of the desk as well (but i wont get into the ones that irritate me here!)

also, if one dealer advertises a price of $30000 (and doesnt disclose their fee, which is $500, and unbeknownst to you) and another dealer advertises a price of $30300 (which includes the fee) which dealer would you go to first? probably the one with the lower price, regardless of the fee (until you realize that you have this additional fee, and most people just give in and buy anyways)

we find that people respond to the lowest price, and advertising a price with our fees included will make us look that much more expensive...

-thene

kyfdx

"advertising a price with our fees included will make us look that much more expensive..."

Yes.. I see.. You don't want to advertise the real price..

I know it is hard to see it from the other side.. But, just go back and re-read your posts regarding your dealer conveyance fee.

If you were a dealer that didn't charge that fee, you'd see what a great selling point that would be...

regards,
kyfdx

isellhondas

Thene...

I know you're frustrated and coming to these forums may not be a good thing for your attitude. There are a lot of "sashas" out there who only care about dollars.

You can offer them a deal that is fantastic but they still want more. These people will take up half your Saturday driving cars, asking countless questions all of the time being friendly and thanking you for the great job you did for them.

They will do their very best to get a number from you to go shop. If you are foolish enough to do this, they will gleefully run off over hill and dale in their zeal to "save" another 100.00 dollars.

I have given up trying to understand this.

They will wave invoices in your face but they don't care a bit or think about the tremendous overhead it takes to open the doors every day.

Don't take any of this personal...I know, it's hard not to. It's just business and I think some folks have lost the concept of one on one relationship selling based on overall value.

jasmith52

Isell:

So what is your advice to someone buying a car ? Is it to wait until a salesman tells you that "This is a great deal" ?

Without doing a little comparison shopping one never really knows if the deal presented is good - relative to the market - or not.

I know that this may drive you crazy because you'll know that the deal presented is a good deal. However you and the dealership have all of the critical information regarding volume based incentives and such.

Without having all of the information then to get the best price only the "Bobst" take it or leave it approach is really valid to get a great price.

So your customers "zeal" to save $100 may be more just to not overpay a grand (or three) than to save the $100 mentioned.

- This is the system that we all want. And we vote for it everytime we buy a car under the negotiated price system.

imidazol97

>price.. it is agreed to... then, when you get in the finance office.. bingo!! Another $500... "

You mean you actually paid the extra $500??!!!

cadillacmike

Just my late 2 cents worth (hey, I was away)

From what my dim brain remembers from business law, oral contracts for more than 1 year duration are NOT enforceable. So, as a lawyer this bloke should have had the sense to get something that was going to happen 2 years into the future in writing. Shame on him if he didn't.

There's one lawyer who will never get any of my business!

thenebean

i know...

most of the time i just let it go, knowing im not gonna change anything...but if you catch me on a bad day, then heck, i just wanna vent!

anyways, this will be an ongoing and endless argument for the ages it seems...

but the one thing that does bug me is that people think i am not a consumer, i never have been one, and i dont know what its like "on their side" of the desk...

well, a lot of us do, but not a lot of you know what its like on OUR side...

just something to think about...

-thene

cadillacmike

How long of a test drive did you take with the car? I always take 2 or 3 and usually, since I'm the one butting heads with the dealership, my wife will sit out in the potential new (to me) car - running (of course). That way, I can see if prolonged idling manifests any other masked problems - we have a lot of stop n go traffic here, and I don't want a car that heats up as soon as I hit traffic.

You might just have one or 2 fans not working properly.

cadillacmike

"Since we don't allow profanity, abbreviations for profanity such as POS aren't allowed either. Let's try to find other ways of expressing dissatisfaction. Thanks! "

So Kirstie, why don't you delete all the posts????? :P

We can call it a POC or a POJ or just remember that the S stands for shish-ka-bob

kyfdx

I doubt I could do it...

But, the price of the car, should be the price of the car...

All fees not collected by the government, are part of the price..

I don't have to sit on the other side of the desk to know that..

And, you wonder why people shop around??

regards,
kyfdx

cadillacmike

For the last several years, the "leather" seats in mustangs applied only to the FRONT seats, the rears were Pleather :mad:

cadillacmike

a Cadillac!

thenebean

no, i dont wonder why people shop around (for the best price, duh! ;-) )

sometimes i like to vent (when work gets me down) and believe me, i dont agree with a lot of the things you find out there in the dealership world...

anyways...i dont want to carry on about any of this...(chances are i'll be out of here within the next few months anyways, moving on to bigger and better things - at which point i'll be back on your side of the desk) ;-)

-thene

ddelise

You'll love this (long) story.

In October of 1995 I leased a 1995 Acura Integra GS-R in Tampa. The week before I was in Chicago, and the paper there listed current dealer incentives on cars, and the Integra had a $2000 dealer incentive. This was the first I had ever heard or seen of this, so I felt 'empowered'! Away I went to the dealership armed with this information.

Anyway, during negotiations, I brought up the $2000 incentive. After first denying there were any, I continued to press. 2 hours later he agreed that the incentives existed, and 'passed' them along to me. (Black car with black leather, stick shift, at the end of the month at the end of the model year - I was doing them a favor!)

During the neogtiations, I was setting a price of, let's say, $18,500 for the car. As mentioned above, after hours of haggling, he agreed.

Fast forward now to the buyer's order. On there is:
Car - MSRP
Agreed upon price including incentives - $18,500
Mud flaps, pinstripes, and floor mats - $399.

I went ballistic. "How is there $399 additional now!"

The salesman explained "We made a deal on the car, but the mud flaps, pinstripes, and floor mats are additional."

"But that sticker was already on the car, so what the heck did you think I was negotiating???" I asked.

"I don't know - those are additional".

I told him to take them off the car, and take away the $399. He said the pinstripes were painted on, but would remove the mud flaps and car mats. I still had to pay $79 for the pinstripes.

Fast forward to the finance office:

Everything is in place, look down at the bottom - $299 dealer fee.

"What the heck is this!!!" I ask.

"Our dealer fee - it's preprinted on every form. We have to charge it to you. If we don't, then other people who pay it might say we are discriminating".

After another 90 minutes of 'negotiating', they reduced the price by $150, but left the $299 fee on the paperwork.

It took 5 hours to get this done - talk about underhanded tactics.

And there is another crazy story regarding my trade-in. But that is for another day...

Also, 2 years ago (7 years after the lease), out of the blue I received a $450 check as settlement for a class action law suit (which I never even knew about) against the dealership for their not disclosing lease terms correctly on the final purchase order.

Damon

cadillacmike

"Also, 2 years ago (7 years after the lease), out of the blue I received a $450 check as settlement for a class action law suit (which I never even knew about) against the dealership for their not disclosing lease terms correctly on the final purchase order. "

I got one of those mystery checks a couple years ago too. Mine wasn't that high (only about 250.00 if I recall).

Can you imagine what the lawyers made on that one??? I mean in most of these cases, the "plantiff group" gets a $5.00 coupon off a future purchase (as in an old jiffy lube case) and the lawyers get $4,000,000.00 :surprise: Just imagine their take where plantiff groups actually get a few hundred apiece!

1racefan

"Our dealer fee - it's preprinted on every form. We have to charge it to you. If we don't, then other people who pay it might say we are discriminating".

I love it!!! The last dealer I visited used the line that "If we don't charge you, and a previous buyer finds out, they can sue us." I went to the website for my State Attorney General's office, and there is a page regarding doc fees. It states that they are completely negotiable under our state law. I take this with me when I go to a dealership, and pull it out if one of those kind of lines are given to me.

thenebean

talk about ripoff ;-)

-thene

black_tulip

I mean in most of these cases, the "plantiff group" gets a $5.00 coupon off a future purchase (as in an old jiffy lube case) and the lawyers get $4,000,000.00

Three observations:
First, lawyers did all the work, so it is natural that they get most of the money.

Second, because of this action, other dealers will think twice before pulling these scams, which indirectly benefits you much more than the coupon you received.

Third, without lawyers, you, as the little microscopic guy, have no chance against evil mega dealers.

cadillacmike

"Three observations:
First, lawyers did all the work, so it is natural that they get most of the money. "

You must be smoking some of those black tulip petals :P

Class actions are the prime reason FOR tort reform!

jjunk

"well, because its not either of those...its more like...

extra money to help pay overhead costs, benefits, insurance, floorplanning, electric bills, building maintenence... "

There's a great justification. Your bills are not my problem other than how they affect the price you charge for your product. Trying do disguise an increase in price is at best unethical. BTW on a true GMS purchase the dealer is allowed a maximum $75 doc fee.

You're in to the local WalMart. You walk to the register with your $24.99 rolled back item. Cashier rings it up.

"That will be $27.50 sir."

"I believe you made an error. The advertised price of $24.99 plus tax (8% in my area) is $26.99. What's with the extra $0.51?"

"That's the procurement fee we charge to cover our overhead. We charge it to everyone."

Is this acceptable to you? Not to me.

"well not disclosing the fee is a different story. with our dealer fee, its disclosed up front, and pre printed on the purchase order (the one that is written out BEFORE it goes to the business manager). if they stick it to you later, well that i dont agree with. but, if it is disclosed, "this price does not include tax, registration or dealer conveyance fee of $xxx" then you've been told that that fee does in fact exist. i present all my prices as such: "

The issue here is tax and registration are fees charged by the government not the dealership. The conveyance fee is an attempt by the dealership to increase the bottom line while advertising a lower selling price than they are in fact offering.
This is dishonest, pure and simple.

michaellno

Here in Denver, there is a BMW/Honda/Mini dealer that advertises "no dealer handling fees", which average $250-400 at other dealerships.

They are also a one price, no haggle dealer, and they seem to do an OK business.

thenebean

i am justifying the fact that its not used for "dealer boat charges" or "vacation fund" or "fancy dinner money" like some others like to say it is...

i am not going to comment on this any further - its too much hassle, and everyone's made up their mind.

-thene

isellhondas

Some of these fees I read about here seem pretty high. What ever they are they SHOULD be disclosed at the time the car is being sold and not in the finance office. We charge 35.00. Everybody including me pays this. It "helps" defray some of our administration costs.

Dealers have to make a (gasp) decent profit to stay in business just like any other business. The "fair" profit of a few hunderd dollars on a 20,000 car won't do this.

nortsr1

Let's face it, that $500 "dealer fee' is disclosed "when you go to sign the papers"...the salesperson doesn't tell you about that fee when he is selling you the car on the showroom floor. I just priced a certain model Pontiac via the GM Buypower site... sent requests to five different dealers... and one...and only one...replied that there were no additional fees except for tax and tags. I had requested in the comment section to tell me if there were any "additional dealer fees."
When and if a dealer tells me there is a $500.00 "Dealer Fee" or whatever figure in a price quote, I E Mail back and tell them that the only way I will discuss the transaction is without the "additional dealer fee".
If you don't want to pay the dealer fee...get up and walk out. PERIOD!!!.

isellhondas

All fees should be disclosed BEFORE the customer go's to sign the papers. When my customers walk into finance, they know everything. I've never, once, had a customer blow out of finance in ten years.

Still, I know a lot of stores pull this and I hate to say it...it works!

The weary "smart shopper" has spent weeks pitting one dealer against the other, finally grinds out the "best" price. Then the finance person says, " Oh, of course, we have a 500.00 doc. fee"!

The customer knows the've been mislead but by this time the've had enough, and they are tired of shopping so they cave in and pay the fee.

Too bad!

So, what is my advise?...... Did anyone ask?

Ask your family, neighbors and friends for a REFERRAL! You'll get sent to a professional like thene who will treat you like family, give you a great deal, and pull no tricks on you!

It really doesn't have to be hard.

kurtamaxxguy

there are car brokers or others people can use to bypass the whole dealer mess.
Or go to Carmax or a few other places that do it straightforwardly, like the usual retail chains we buy our day to day staples from (rest assured if Walmart tried tacking a last minute charge on a purchase, I might pay it but they wouldn't get much business from me in the future!)

one more time for the world - Car dealers should make a fair profit.
Now, finance departments, quit stabbing your hardworking salespeople in the back with the crappy last minute tack ons!!!

black_tulip

First, lawyers did all the work, so it is natural that they get most of the money. "

You must be smoking some of those black tulip petals

Who do you think prepares the case and presents it to a court of law? Tooth-fairy?

mikefm58

" First, lawyers did all the work, so it is natural that they get most of the money. "

You must be smoking some of those black tulip petals

Who do you think prepares the case and presents it to a court of law? Tooth-fairy? "

I could really get in to this discussion, but aren't we waaaaaaaaaay off topic guys?

mikefm58

Are just another way to make additional money, whether they're disclosed up front or not. I love the Wal-Mart example given, perfect. Or how about if I go to the doctor, pay my co-pay, and then they say there is a $5 doc. fee to file the insurance forms to send to my health insurance company?
.
If they're disclosed up front, well OK, the buyer knows beforehand and can adjust their price accordingly. Sneaking them in at the business office is low.. But I've never had a problem "insisting" they be taken off.

sasha3372

This has certainly been a heated subject for the morning, which is a clear indication that $550 for Dealer documentation, cleaning, inspection of a car is incredibly ridulously high.

As a buyer, I know this service that does not have a $550 value. It is a Red Flag that the actual price quoted may also be subject to question, and the original price must have been Super inflated. I know the dealer needs to make money somewhere. The question is how and where.

Last month, this month, and next month, GM and dealers are not going to sell their cars at cost, breakeven or at a loss. You are going to make money, and GM is obviously trying to help you.

I just want to know how you are going to make your money from me. Be upfront about it and I will decide whether to buy from Dealer A, or Dealer B. Historically, the dealer has designed the game such that the Buyer has been the greater fool. Don't be so impatient if the Buyer is trying to get up to speed and learn your rule book. Its just bad for the industry. I appreciate the help from those who have been honest.

stickguy

Everytime I have bought a car from a dealer, I knew the fee well before getting into the f&I office (actually before agreeing to the deal). At least in NJ, the normal process is for the salesperson to fill out the purchase order, listing the price, trade, tax, DMV and dealer doc fees. Basically the same stuff that will be filled out on the legalesse forms, so you know what is included in the cost (not financing, that would come later).

Yes, the doc fee is normally preprinted and "non-negotiable", but certainly you can haggle it away in the price you pay for the car. I don't really care what they call each item, just what the bottom line number is.

For the last 2 cars I bought (both new, in '04), the fee was $149 or less (one might have been $99, but I don't recall exactly). Yes, still probably high for what they do, but not outrageously so. $400-$600 is rediculous though.

graphicguy

If you've bought cars in your area for a while, you get a pretty good idea of who the good and bad dealers are. Usually, the high pressure places are the ones that will sneak in charges that are unreasonable (thinking $500 "fees" disclosed in the F&I office).

Maybe it's me, but I can tell fairly quickly whether I like the dealership/sales managment/sales person when I walk in the front door.

I think I've bought enough cars to know a good portion of the "high pressure" tactics of the shakier dealerships. They haven't changed much over the years.

Doing just a little bit of homework, you can find out quickly a general range of what any car will sell for. To some, they'll shop all over town to save an extra $50 (and probably burn up $75 in gas to do so). If I've got a reasonable target price in mind, I should be able to get real close at the dealership I prefer to do busines with. The high pressure places will just as likely try to grind you as much as you think you're going to grind them. To me, that's a waste of time.

Again, find the dealership and the salesperson you trust and feel comfortable with, do a little research and it should end up in a relatively easy transaction.

Taking my own advice, I can honestly say that my negotiations take, at most, 15-20 minutes. Too many other variables come into play if you try and stretch out negotiations. Either the dealership will or won't give you a fair deal. Either you do or don't have a good handle on the market and what the car you're trying to buy will sell for.

If you've done your homework, the rest should be easy. The dealership knows they'll make a little coin and you know you got a good deal.....win/win....everyone likes those scenarios.

thenebean

negotiations really shouldnt take longer than 15-20 minutes at most really! if they are, walk out the door - chances are, things are getting confusing.

i know certain states will cap what a dealer can charge for a doc fee. here in CT there's no such law, but in the area where I am, doc fees range from $199-$299. Down in the southern wealthy part of the state, doc fees can get up to $599 if not more! At least for us, we have a computer that the DMV lets us use, and a program which allows us to take care of DMV registration issues here in house, as well as issue hard plates immediately. the cost of that computer use is not cheap (and i cant remember the exact number, but its up over $10k i believe) and the dealer conveyance fee helps cover that cost, while providing the convenience for our customers to have hard plates and a permanent registration at time of delivery. not all dealers around here do that.

again, i know a lot of you don't like the idea of doc fees, and honestly, if i were master of my own dealership, i wouldnt have them...but it is the way it is, and all i can do is pass along to you what they are here for, and what the reasoning behind it is as far as i understand it.

i would think anything over $250 would be way too much for a doc fee, in any state!

just my 2 cents

-thene