Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

frnkrzzo

i dunno.....i have experience with both. crv people dont do all that well on trade. the escape/tribute/mariner triplets always seem to perform pretty good. honda doesnt do everything good. after looking at everthing in general i guess it comes down to this.....

if you want a cheap car, honda's the way to go.

if you want a truck, no beating ford.

if you have some money, lexus or mercedes for sure.

midsize and full sized suvs are pretty much the same.

.....in my humble opinion.

frnkrzzo

enhance the look of a sebring? you finally figure out the formula for see-through paint? : )

man, i need to find something to do today..........

jlawrence01

In what way is Honda cheap?? Or where are all these cheap Hondas? I have yet to find any.

mirth

...his point was if you want to buy a new "cheap" car and you want the maximum resale, the Civic is the way to go.

toyotaken

Nothing wrong with them at all. Actually they're in the same situation as the Prism and Corolla were pre-2003 model year. Same basic vehicle, but GM rebates the heck out of the vibe. So fast-forward 3years and you have Matrix's with resales $1,000-$2,000 more than what a similarly equipped Vibe will be. I still think that one of the best buys in the market are an older Prism. Cheap purchase price with Toyota engine, transmission,etc.

Ken

exb0

Thanks Ken,

Is it possible to get a Matrix, either base or XR, with all the safety features like VSC, ABS and Side Airbags, but without sunroof, aluminum wheels and the 6-CD changer? My mother-in-law absolutely must have all the safety features, but her husband doesn’t want to pay for all the other “luxury junk". I can’t find one equipped this way anywhere. I am in the Washington DC area.

toyotaken

I've just run a "locate" for the NY, CAT, and SET regions of Toyota for any base or XR matrix with BE (side airbages). The only region of the three that has either model available is CAT (should be good for you). The most basic way they are being configured with the safety package is: FE, CK, AB, BE, EV, QP, DK. Translated into english, that is: 50state emissions, All weather package w/ rear window wiper, ABS, Side and side curtain airbags, AM/FM/6-disc CD, Value pkg #2 including Alloy wheels, Tilt/slide moonroof, Cruise Control, Fog lights, body spoiler, preferred owner's portfolio.

MSRP for this configuration is $19,835

The difficulty lies in that what Toyota and the dealers have both found is that when people are looking at the base models, bottom-line price is usually the primary factor. Of course, nothing is the case for everyone, but this is most often the case. So if you're looking to get these options the above configuration seems to be it. I did not see any models with the VSC in my search, btw.

You could try to order a vehicle, but I wouldn't hold my breath. With Toyota, "ordering" is next to impossible. I know from personal experience with waiting for over 6months once to try doing so without success even after that long. So it really boils down to either choosing a vehicle that doesn't have any of the options or one which as all of them.

Hope this helps.

Ken

rroyce10

.... **crv people dont do all that well on trade** ....

Reeeeaally, and what planet might that be on ........?

Clean 00 SE's with 65/75k are worth in and around the $10's on the trade side and will do all of the $12's on the retail side .... clean 05 SE's with 5/7k will see all of the $20/21 figure trade side and get almost new money on the street ... if that is "don't do well" - then the new ice age should be here by Thursday .....

Terry

steine13

What Terry said regarding the CRV.

"* i didnt include small pickups, because none of them are very good."

"Small pickups" from Toyota: The Tacoma, esp. the 4x4, gets stupid money on the used side.

Even the reg cab 4cyl stick 4x4s do well.

-Mathias

basscadet

I still think that one of the best buys in the market are an older Prism.

We sell the heck out of these! Our guys go out to the auctions and buy as many as they can, they sell for thousands cheaper than the corollas, and it's pretty easy to show customers how they're really just Toyotas. Great buys.

basscadet

Very, very few Matrix's will come with Side Airbags that aren't just about loaded up.

Honestly the car is fairly safe without the airbags. Traction control? Just buy some good all-weather tires. If cost really is a concern then look for a used one that has all those options. But her chances of getting one with *just* ABS, VSC, and side airbags are slim to none. That's an order-only car, and in which case she'll be waiting half a year to get the car.

exb0

Thanks Ken,

Looks like he’ll have to enjoy the “luxury junk” or get a corolla, civic or accord lx.

rroyce10

...... I told this to Mathias awhile back .. I'm paying more for LSI Prizm's now than I was a year ago ... try to find as nice clean low miler 01 for under $6,000 nowadays .....



Mathias: "I wish" I could find a cheap Yota truck ...... well actually I can, but I don't want to put my body shop to work for the next 3 days ..l.o.l.....



Terry.

wingman3

I bought a vehicle last Thursday and the registry still won't register it (the dealer is doing the running). Here's the story I get from the dealer. Suzuki leased the vehicle I bought to a Suzuki employee for a year. That employee "registered" the vehicle in Mass and had Mass plates on the car. At the end of the year, he turned the car back into Suzuki. The original Certificate of Origin went to the registry when the vehicle was titled. When Suzuki got the vehicle back, as far as they are concerned, the car was never "sold" so they issued a new Certificate of Origin on the vehicle. When the dealer went to register the vehicle to me, the registry flagged the deal because there were two Certificates of Origin. I had to drop the car off at the dealer last night so the local police could inspect the vehicle/VIN number and certify it matches the Certificate of Origin. Supposedly this will resolve the problem. But I'm not so sure and I'm wondering if anyone has any first hand knowledge being a dealer. At least one question that comes to mind is that if the car was titled, then where's the title. Once a car is registered, at least in MA., it's no longer new. How can someone just issue a new Certificate of Origin and act like the car was just a demo. If they in fact are getting a new Certificate of Origin instead of a duplicate title, what problems may I be leaving myself open for in the future. Won't this vehicle now be in the registry records as having been leased, titled and then sold as new again ???

I have a feeling we are not done with this yet and I'm hoping to get some expert advice on how to proceed from here.

Any thoughts regarding this situation are appreciated.

Regards,

Steve

steine13

Buddy of mine bought, from a local Chevy dealership, in the fall of 2003:

2001 Prizm, base, no-sale blue/green with 35k miles. 4sp auto, bald tires on the left side, no runs no hits and all the power stuff, $6,300. It even had a month or so of the b2b warranty left.

I'd buy two if i could get '02s for that kind of money now... and I'm not even a dealer...

The other local Chevy dealer is trying to unload 2002 33k base no-pwr 3sp autos for $9k with a CPO warranty.

I think the Vibes will be good once the start coming off lease en masse.
[Don't look it up, Terry, it means "lots" :-) ]

-Mathias

isellhondas

Well, first of all, Ridgelines DO have a full, box frame with a unibody mounted on top of that. this makes for a VERY ridgid truck!

I can't imagine Chrysler 300's having great resale values but I don't know what other full size car would do better for now.

Where I REALLY disagree with you is on your pick for small SUV!

Ford Escape? Mercury Mariner?...never even seen one...Mazda Tribute?

The CRV has OUTSTANDING resale value and RAV 4's aren't that far behind.

Lastly, Toyota Sienna isn't "crap".

ifyoubuildit

What makes the "book" value on a used vehicle higher? And why do the crappy trade-ins "book" better? Thanks!

toyotaken

As has been said many times here on this forum as well as many of the others, the "books" are guides and only that. Some cars are worth more than what the estimated book value is, some are worth less. There are, however several makes that "book" value is almost always MUCH higher than what market value truly is. What the vehicles are actually selling for at auction or wholesale is considerably less than what the "book" value shows.

As for the second question, there are only a few makes/models that this is the case. Most of the others that were listed here have book values just as bad as their real-world values. The other factor is that often owners, who are attached to their vehicles often over-estimate the condition of their vehicle. I can't even tell you how many times that I've had to explain to people, "Mr. Smith, I might agree with you that your 180,000 mile vehicle is in much better shape than most with that sort of miles, but I don't think that we can use "excellent" as the condition of your vehicle seeing as you can put both hands through the rust hole in the trunk and fender."

Hope this helps.

Ken

ifyoubuildit

gotcha. Thanks Ken!

toyotaken

You're welcome.

kyfdx

No wonder the price of Prizms keeps going up.... You guys just won't quit talking them up!!

Every time I find out about nice, cheap, reliable transportation, Mathias writes a book about it... Go ahead, Mathias... link us to the book...

Hey... next year, I'm selling the wife's 325i... Think you could start telling everyone about how great they are as used cars? Especially the ones just coming out of warranty?

regards,
kyfdx

manamal

Lets see, small SUV....First what is a small SUV?

I would say the top three from a resale order would be
the CRV, RAV4, and Subaru Forester....if the latter is really an SUV.
(I own one, and it feels more like a car to me)

asafonov

I forget if GM minivans made either one of your lists?

I have to disagree on the Matrix. I am not in the business, but it seems that its resale is at least as good as that of the Corolla, the latter not being helped by its abundance in rental fleets.

frnkrzzo

wasn't trying to get you to agree to everything i said. after all, "yousellhondas", not me. i have no bias toward make. but i can tell you for sure and without doubt, the escape/tribute/mariner is superior in every way to your beloved crv, and sales totals for new ones will definately confirm that. as for trade in value, i never said trade in for crvs or rav4s were bad because they arent. they just arent as good as the escape/tribute/mariner and that, sir, is a fact of life. i've traded for many of them. as a percentage of the original price, they sell for more money used than a crv. it isnt even close. feel free to comment. try to set your bias aside. hona makes fine vehicles. not all of them are good. the ridgeline is in no way comparable to the 1/2 ton trucks already on the market. they are fine competition for the sport tracs, colorado 4drs, dakota double cabs, etc of the world, but a utilitarian truck they certainly are not. it is my belief that as they are traded in, their resale will not be positive. thats just my opinion and you do not have to agree with it, but my track record on these things is pretty good.

asafonov

small suv-
ford escape, mercury mariner, mazda tribute. no quetion.

Hmmm... I would say RAV4 and CR-V.

mini van-
honda odyssey (all others are crap)

The new Sienna is very nice, though I personally prefer and would buy the Ody. The MPV is decent, though its resale is not great (but apparently not horrible as percentage of actual transaction price rather than MSRP.)

frnkrzzo

no mini vans are good except for the honda. maybe the toyota to a lesser degree. as far as matrixs' are concerned, fleets of them were sold as they were introduced as well as having a pontiac twin also on the market. toyota's traditionally comparitively high initial cost doesnt help the percentage either. personnallly, i have not had good experience with them as trade ins. even though they might bring a little more money than a cavbalier, focus, or the like, people generallly owe far more money on them than the latter.

frnkrzzo

yep. i know subarus are famous for their outstanding resale value. every single LPGA tour pro wants one. that keeps the demand high. still though, i stand by what i said. escape/mariner/tribute is still better as a percentage.

butchbr73

"i can tell you for sure and without doubt, the escape/tribute/mariner is superior in every way to your beloved crv, and sales totals for new ones will definately confirm that"

.....hmm, statements like that severely hurt your credibility.... interesting.

I'd be curious (I think a lot would) for you to throw some figures out on your crv / escape, tribute, mariner comparison please and backup your claims with figures.

I'm not talking the sales figures as you state above b/c the fact Ford sells more of this type doesn't mean a thing to me.... I'm talking about purchase price and trade in, etc... thanks.

mldj98

I second that motion!

qbrozen

as for trade in value, i never said trade in for crvs or rav4s were bad because they arent. they just arent as good as the escape/tribute/mariner and that, sir, is a fact of life. i've traded for many of them. as a percentage of the original price, they sell for more money used than a crv.

As Terry would say, "did you write that with a straight face?"

'05 Tribute i 4wd = $22,xxx
'05 CRV LX AWD = $21,3xx

'03 Tribute LXV6 4wd w/airbags, security, stereo, ABS and 30K miles = $14K TMV
'03 CRV LX AWD w/30K miles, airbags = $15,250 TMV

Do I even need to do the math? well, ok, if you insist ... that's ~62% resale on the Tribute vs ~72% on the CRV. AND, if you'll notice, I gave that used Tribute a V6 and the new one is just a 4-banger. So, really, the Tribute trade-in would be even lower.

frnkrzzo

this is the best dispute out there for all the information i posted?.....i musta done a pretty good job. i accept the challenge to back up my claim......gimme about 15 minutes to produce numbers. they'll be mind-numbingly accurrate. if i can't do it, i'll admit i was wrong. i doubt i am though.

lemmer

You did a good job, but when you are wrong you are really wrong. While you are researching the CRV/Escape, be sure to look up Tacoma and Sienna resale values.

frnkrzzo

ok, heres some hard numbers to back up my claim. i gotta say, i thought the difference here would be greater. it turns out the gap is not as much as i thought it to be.

2005 base model crv 4 cyl with auto tranny bought at invoice with destination charge included less incentives-

19173.00

kbb trade in value, same model 2003 with 40k miles in good condition-

11765.00

depreciation-

$7408.00

2005 escape base model 4 cyl auto tranny bought at invoice plus destination less incentives-

16829.00 (though that employee pircing program would make it substantially less i think)

2003 same model good condition with 40k miles trade in value according to kbb-

9595.00

depreciation-

$7234.00

any more whining? how bout an appology?.....i'm owed several.

qbrozen

For now, I'll leave alone the fact that I don't necessarily agree with using the numbers as stated (mostly due to my personal preference against KBB).

BUT, even using your numbers, the CRV is ahead by over 4%.

Reason you must use percentages rather than dollars is (this should be obvious) because, if you compare vehicles that are drastically different in price, the one that cost, let's say $40K new is going to depreciate in dollars much more than one that cost $20K, but they might depreciate the same percentage. Percentage is a much more accurate measure.

dedwards

This is my first post here I have to say that your research does not show a better resale.

7408 is 38% of 19173

and

7234 is 42 % of 16829

So the CRV loss is a smaller percentage of the total price.

of course for the most part if your looking at a car purchase as a investment I would say don't. When I make a investment I like my investment to increase in value.

I purchase the best car for my needs. After meeting my needs I then make sure it meets my luxury needs and of course price needs resale means some but unless your not planning on keeping a car more then 2 years then it should not really be a big consideration.

Thanks for doing the research though

mldj98

What about the 5 year cost estimates?

If I was a bettin' man (in this case I would be)....which one of these vehicles do you think is going to spend more time on the lifts at the repair shop?

Tough choice...but we all know which one we are more likely to see broke down on the side of the road....

"let the games begin"

dedwards

I would not go there myself.

If I had the choice between the Two I would take a ford escape over the CRV. Then again I am sure there is many that would go the other way it's all about personal taste. I would gather that both are about the same reliable, unless you get unlucky and get the lemon from the factory ( this happens with all makes). All that said even knowing the escape losses more money I would rather have it as I think it is more appealing to me ( now truth be told I don't really like either ).

We all have our bias' on different model vehicles.

butchbr73

.... well, you're right... the Escape loses a smaller amount of $$, but you're talking about a vehicle that costs ~$3k less.

As eloquently state by dedwards, as a percentage of its initial cost (as you had discussed in your intial claims), the CRV depreciates less, ie - holds a larger percentage of its initial value. Look at any $45k car, you'll drop $10-15-20k in depreciation, but the real question is what is that % of the original costs... Make any sense?

sorry, no apologies here.

frnkrzzo

gee, this doesnt sound like much of an appology. i would have admitted i was wrong if i would have been. i even stacked the deck against me using base model examples with no option. well equipped models would lean further away from the honda due to the greater difference in actual prices paid. as for the percentages, its a moot point. would you rather pay 19k to lose 7.4 or pay 17k to lose 7.2?....pretty much a no-brainer. dont try me with dealer talk, i havent the patience. now, just admit my point is factual and valid nad move on to trashing domestics again. as for honda reliability, every stinking one of them has an aluminum block and heads. great for economy, poor for durability. i've personnally owned 2 hondas. one i had for 3 years with no problems (acura mdx), the other i had for 4 years (civic) and blew the engine. my import leaning brothers, i never trashed your crv, i just pointed out that it certainly isnt the best in its segment as far as resale value is concerned, and on that accounbt i am certainly right. i have backed up my claim with fact. concede the point.

steine13

"kbb trade in value, same model 2003 with 40k miles in good condition-

11765.00"

I'll take five.
-Mathias
[Not in the business]

butchbr73

"as a percentage of the original price, they sell for more money used than a crv. it isnt even close. feel free to comment."

...this above statement came from one of your prior posts... You just proved yourself incorrect and showed us how the CRV depreciates less as a percentage of the original price than an Escape...

"would you rather pay 19k to lose 7.4 or pay 17k to lose 7.2?....pretty much a no-brainer'

.....Really? If we are talking cars just on pure numbers and not what kind, what i liked, etc (a lot more goes into a decision than just the numbers).... i'd take the 19k car everytime, thank you.

And no, I'm not in the biz either.....

qbrozen

well, as you can see, others have made points you should address. ESPECIALLY the fact you claimed a better percentage in a past post.

NOW, if you really want to change your tune and stick to your guns, then you'll have to start stating that Hyundais and Kias have some of the best resale values on the planet. Why? Because you can buy one for like $9K new. In that case, the MOST it will ever depreciate is $9K. Heck, put that up against a $50K Benz or even your $17K Escape and that $9K car is the golden child of depreciation.

Sorry, but that dog ain't gonna hunt. You certainly aren't getting an apology from me with that type of argument.

jproc

"would you rather pay 19k to lose 7.4 or pay 17k to lose 7.2?....pretty much a no-brainer' "

I suspect that Rizzo is spoofing here.First he makes claims, than as support for those claims he gives as hard evidence an example that totally contradicts his claims.Than when he is called on it-he decides to ignore his own words and examples and makes more claims.He is obviously kidding here.

lemmer

As Steine implies and Terry could explain better, I would bet the Escape would be way in back of book and the CRV would go in the opposite direction.

mikefm58

I have researched to death resale values in the small SUV segment and NOTHING I've read has ever stated that the Escape/Tribute outperforms a comparably equipped CRV......NOTHING. Heck, my '99 CRV with 109K miles has not had even one unexpected repair or warranty work.
.
Granted I'm not in the biz so I can't back this up with real world numbers or experience, but everything points to giving the advantage to the CRV in terms of expected reliability and resale value........Terry summed this up perfectly the other day.
.
For more in-depth reading and to discuss this with some emotional (but very nice) folks, go to the CRV vs. Escape forum.

Kirstie_H

This is not a DEBATE forum - we're not out to prove anything. If the arguing and personal comments don't stop by tonight, this forum is closed for business. If you have an actual question (not to be confused with a challenge, insult, or accusation) for a car dealer, please post it. Otherwise, you're putting the ability to post in this forum at jeopardy, as well as your own ability to continue being a member of our Forums.

Thanks,
Kirstie_H

zodiac2004

Terry, please put an end to this ridiculous point about Escape's resale being better than CRV's by posting auction numbers for 2003 Escape/CRVs of similar trim.

dedwards

I agree lets drop this it is pointless. It's not a dealer question. Also resale value of the new car purchased is not something that should weigh heavy on your buying choice.

I am a investment banker and my quick advice here is never invest money in something that you can have a argument about to which is a better investment and both choice are losing you 40% in 3 to 4 years. Buy the car that is best for you that you will enjoy the most.

kyfdx

.. would like an apology..

Anyone? Bueller?

capitano

That's a different yardstick. I think you could find a nice 7 series depreciating more in total dollars, but less as a percent of the original transaction price. So does the tribute hold it's value better than the beemer?