Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

dpk99

I am going to purchase a new scion xA through my cedit union but can't sign the paperwork until Monday. I was told by the dealer that they can hold the car with a deposit and that it is refundable by law. Is that true or can they sell the cr and then make me wait for another?

I live in PA.

mirth

...that it is completely up to the dealer. However, if they are willing to take your deposit, then I doubt they are going to sell it from under you. If they did, you would get your deposit back (and probably go to a different dealer).

brooklynn

My HHR which I won through Chevy is being shipped to a dealer located near me. Can the dealer sell it for me off the lot as a new vehicle? If so, what can I expect for a car with a sticker price of $23,000 (at least that's what Chevy told me when I won it). It has yet to arrive at a dealer. Can I line up a buyer through E-bay (for one) while it is on lot? Can I avoid registration and sales tax if I don't actually take the vehicle?

robr2

There was a whole discussion on this very thing a few weeks ago. IIRC, someone won a Tahoe.

Your best bet is to speak with a tax specialist.

lmm

If I order a vehicle does the dealer still get a holdback.

I was just wondering if I ordered a vehicle and I was paying invoice how did they still make a profit.

kdhspyder

Yes the dealer does. The invoice includes the holdback.

lmm

Would a dealer be more inclined to accept a deal at invoice. The car would sell immediately and he would basically get the whole amount of the holdback.

Also, what exactly is PDI? Is this a real cost or just pure profit.

raybear

We do deals at invoice all the time, holdback is enough to keep us going as long as enough customers do some financing, warranties, etc...

PDI is Pre Delivery Inspection, it's prepping the car for delivery. Most manufacturers reimburse the dealer for it to some extent.

rroyce10

.... It all depends on the vehicle ...

If it's a Sunbird (for example) and the dealer is sitting on 15/20 on the front line, then I'm sure he'd would blow and go .. if it's a Lexus/Bimmer "type", then the dealer needs to make some profit ...... where most people get confused on the holdback issue is .. most folks think it's a profit center and it's not -- plus the incoming vehicle is coming in to pay for the 3 or 4 that have been sitting on the lot since July, August or September depending on the year ...

PDI - Pre-Delivery Inspection .... the dealer is reimbursed from the factory for the 1 to 3 hours of service (depending on the product) ..



Terry.

fredvh

What exactly does a Lexus-type dealer do on the PDI? Is this just removing the plastic coverings?

kdhspyder

If it's like a Toyota.. ( even more so ).. there is a 2 page list of details that have to be checked and verified before it can be put on the lot. A lot of vehicles come wothout the fuses installed for instance.. in addition everything needs to be checked to be in working order from brake lights, backup lights, manuals complete, radio working, etc, etc, etc. For a Toyota its nearly 2 hrs of shop time including state inspection.

british_rover

For our Land Rovers when they come off the truck none of their systems are activated. The power doors don't even work so all of that stuff has to be activated before the cars can be driven past about 20 mph. I would assume for Lexus it is the same way. A PDI for us pays one hour of labor and they have to upload a lot of software to the vehicle.

isellhondas

"holdback is enough to keep us going"

Wow...that's scary!

rroyce10

.... Isell, I'm sure he was just kiddin' ... the store would last about 90 days ...

Terry.

isellhondas

Not a place I would want to work!

Sounds like Southern California.

mirth

He did say it only worked if they did the financing and had extended warranties, etc. - basically, that what they lost on the front end is more than made up for on the back end. But isell is right, it'd be miserable for the salesperson.

mark156

British_rover, I'm thinking seriously about getting a Land Rover LR3 HSE. I am comparing the LR3, Jeep Commander and the Volvo XC90 and the Land Rover comes to the top of my list.

One of my biggest concerns is the reliability since I will be using this vehicle to drive across country. What is your opinion? Are the 2006 models better than the 2005's in that regard.

Also, someone mentioned on another board that the LR3 with the six cylinder have been getting bigger discounts and the eight cylinder is selling for over MSRP, is that your experience?

Thanks, Mark156

qbrozen

You might want to do a couple of things here.

Back when we were shopping for an SUV, we looked at Land Rovers (this was the Disco II) ... I was concerned with getting an extended warranty. Its VERY expensive to get an extended warranty on a Land Rover (this tells me that its very expensive to fix and prone to breaking). I also got a look at the dealer's maintenance list for the Disco. That alone will make your heart stop. $450 for the 3-month service!

I don't know if the LR3 is any different, but I definitely suggest looking into these details when comparison shopping. Needless to say, we scratched the Disco off our list at that time.

isellhondas

That we use for extended warranties on used cars is the largest in the U.S. They have been in business forever and they WILL NOT sell a warranty for a Land Rover for ANY price! That alone should speak volumes!

rhester

Hopefully a dealer or someone other knowledgable person can answer this simple question for me.

I have a friend who seems to think that the manufacture date of the car affects your trade-in price. For example, would an '05 car manufactured in Sept 04 would have a lower resale price than one manufactured in July 05, assuming same miles/condition etc?

Thank you!

british_rover

I would put it this way. I think the reliabilty of those three cars are pretty close to the same the comander may have a slight edge. It all really depends on the motor though. The V8 engine in the XC90 is really too large and powerful for the transmission that is behind it. I would get the double turbo 6 cylinder if I was getting the Volvo but I don't really like how the Volvo drvies. It is realy just a jacked up Cross Country.

I have not driven the Commander yet so I can't say anything about it really but being built in the US proably a little easier to work on then either the Vovo or the Land Rover. You are going to run into more people out in the middle of no where that can work on the jeep if it did break down then the Volvo and Land Rover did. There are a lot fewer Land Rover and Volvo Dealers in the US then there are Jeep dealers. Just something to think about.

Land Rover does have Road Side assistance with Trip interuption and I am sure Volvo does too I don't know about Jeep.

As for pricing there is 5000 dollars worth of rebates on the 05 LR3's so you can get a very good deal on an 05 if you can find one. There are very few 2005 HSE's left though since not many were made and 2006 HSE's are selling for MSRP or within 1000-1500 dollars of it. If you can get an 2005 LR3 snap it up quickly while it is still there. We are selling are remaning 2005 LR3's for between 6000 and 7000 dollars off of MSRP.

bdr127

The only way it would affect the resale value is if there are significant changes or improvements from the first half of the year to the second half....

For example, Audi has a tendency to change gears mid-way through some years with a styling facelift, engine changes, etc. Audi even goes so far in that situation as to name their models "2005" and "2005.5"

In this case, they are essentially two different cars... So, yes, there would definitely be a difference in resale value.

In all other cases, no, it won't make a difference.

sbell4

Your friend is exactly right. We look at the inside of the door and the decal and the VIN to determine which factory it came from and the build date. The vehicles built near holidays and weekends take the biggest hit in reduction of value.

just kidding....you win the argument. Tell your friend that they are being silly.

robr2

I can recall trading in a vehicle it became an issue.

Sales Rep: Wow - it's 5 years old and only has 60K - that's only 12K per year. It'll bring good money on a trade.

Used Car Guru: Wow - you bought it at the end of the model year so you've put 60K on in 4 years. That 15K per year kills it.

rhester

Well it's funny because this is the message that my friend posted on another (completely un-car related) message board that caused me to respond. I'd like to know what you guys think about this:

"At the end of a year, when the new models are out, the dealerships start getting pressure to get rid of the "old cars." People start buying the new ones, and the longer an "old" one sits there, the less likelihood it will EVER sell. No one wants to buy a "new" '05 in '06 because.... your car is aged based NOT on when you bought it, but on when it was CREATED. Thus resale on an '05 bought in '04 is going to be higher than the resale of an '05 bought in '06. It's a bit hard to explain, just trust me on that one. It's the date on the car door that says when it was made that determines a lot of decisions on the "age" of the car, and not the year they pasted on there. An '05 made in '04 is older than an '05 made in '05. That's obvious, but people often don't think of it that way- the car industry DOES think of it that way. Your '05 made in '04 is only an '05 to you... and when it comes to pricing. After that, all bets are off."

and...

"This means also, you should get an '06 that was made in '06, and the later in '06, the better."

Also, when I replied that this was baloney this is what they said:

"I wasn't talking about resale, I should have made that more clear. I was talking about things like extended warranties and other non-sales things that take into consideration aging criteria. And that can vary per extended warranty, too. But a lot of people (and I know this for a fact- from both financing dept. work and service work) make the mistake of not being certain the extended warranty is based upon their ownership instead of age of the vehicle.

As for 3 years being standard, I've already covered that. It's only "standard" for domestics. It's not standard for most imports. And again, sorry, but if you won't stand behind it for longer than that, don't ask me to. I'll go to someone who will. It's my money, I'm putting it where my mouth is."

The last comment is regarding standard warranties. I was trying to point out that 3/36 warranties ARE standard, even though a lot of manufacturers these days offer better.

I'd really love to know what you think about this. I just don't want to mislead the original poster of the thread, hence my concern :P

british_rover

It does not matter when it was built. I have never looked at the VIN plate on a car and saw that it was say an early build vehicle and priced it less unless there was signafigant mid-model year improvements. For example a 2004 Lexus ES300 built in 2003 with the same options miles is worth the same as a 2004 Lexus built in 2004.

Now the difference to that is a used car with say 40,000 miles on it that is a 2004 that was delivered in say 2003 so while the car might be only one model year old the mileage is spaced out over two plus years. I had a car like that and a lot of people were afraid of it cause it seemed to them that the person drove it 40,000 miles in one year. I had to explain to them no this car was titiled mid 2003 so really had less then 20,000 miles a year put on it. Still a lot but not as bad as they thought.

Now if I was pricing a car that was a trade in with say 20,000 miles on it and it was a 2005 I would consider it to have 20,000 miles a year. The books we use for Trade in values have different mileage per year per dollar figures depending on the type of vehicle as well. Obviously the more expensive the car the higher dollar per mile figure but more exotic or speciality cars have lower mile per year figures as well. People don't expect you to drive your Porsche as many miles per year as you drive your Camry.

kdhspyder

I'll defer to Terry here who is more informed on this matter but my/our experience here at our store is..

your first point..
your car is aged based NOT on when you bought it, but on when it was CREATED. Thus resale on an '05 bought in '04 is going to be higher than the resale of an '05 bought in '06. It's a bit hard to explain, just trust me on that one. It's the date on the car door that says when it was made that determines a lot of decisions on the "age" of the car, and not the year they pasted on there. An '05 made in '04 is older than an '05 made in '05.

We have never valued a tradein based on it's creation date. What might be a factor though is the opposite of what what was stated above; e.g. an 05 purchased in Oct '04 has been driven now for 13 mo's and should have about 15-20K mi on it whereas an '05 purchased last month may have only 1500 mi on it. The latter is more valuable. Miles driven and 'age' both have to be taken into account.

dino001

As a customer I would rather buy a car driven 40K miles in one year than in two. It is likely it was owned by some sales rep driving alone 150-mile/day trips 5 days a week. The wear is probably smaller than many shorter trips. Good service records would not hurt.

For me, 5K miles can be worse than 30K miles, if driven on 1-mile trips in Chicago during winter.

bdr127

Sales Rep: Wow - it's 5 years old and only has 60K - that's only 12K per year. It'll bring good money on a trade.

Used Car Guru: Wow - you bought it at the end of the model year so you've put 60K on in 4 years. That 15K per year kills it.

But that's more of a mileage issue than a "when you bought in the model year" issue....

Now say there was a 5 year old car (2001 model, for example)... Two people: one person bought it at the beginning of the year and put on 40k miles VS someone who bought at the end of the year and put on 45k miles. The slightly older car with 40k will be worth more (given all else is equal).

That's just the way it works --- Total Miles divided by number of model years old.

michaellno

I happen to own two cars (not the same make) but both are 2003 model years. One was bought in November of 2002; the other was bought in November of 2003.

The first car has 44K on it, which means that I've averaged just under 15K per year.

The second car has 34K on it, which averages out to 17K per year.

Are you telling me that both would be treated as 3 model years old (since we are now in the 2006 model year) and that the car that is only 2 calendar years old would be looked at as if it averaged 11K per year?

In terms of trade in or private party value, none of the sites that I've ever visited (Edmunds TMV, Intellichoice or KBB) have asked when the car was purchaed -- just MY and number of miles.

So, in that sense it would seem to be advantageous to buy a car at the end of the model year.

kdhspyder

The first car has 44K on it, which means that I've averaged just under 15K per year.

The second car has 34K on it, which averages out to 17K per year.

Are you telling me that both would be treated as 3 model years old (since we are now in the 2006 model year) and that the car that is only 2 calendar years old would be looked at as if it averaged 11K per year?

Since the 2nd one has only 34K on it it 'looks' to the next buyer that your newer vehicle was driven only 11K per yr. Not one buyer ever has looked for the 'born on date'

You are correct if you intend to trade relatively soon it would be better to buy late in the year for the reason you cite. However if you are a 'keeper' then 10-15 yrs down the road it doesnt matter.

mark156

gbrozen/british_rover

If I did buy the LR3, it states in the brochure that the "all" service is covered under the warranty for 4 years 50,000 miles. So, out of pocket expenses would be minimal if any.

I have never bought an extended warranty on any vehicle, to me, they seem to be a waste.

My brother has a 2003 Land Rover Discovery II that has 38,000 miles and he has had no trouble at all. It has been a very good vehicle so far.

Since I'm a little uncertain about the LR3, XC90 and the Commander, I might think about the 2007 Cadillac Escalade that is coming out in March. The interior is really nice looking from the Cadillac website. The Cadillac products seem to be fairly reliable so I'm considering it "slightly".

Again, thanks for your input guys. Mark

steine13

Not one buyer ever has looked for the 'born on date'

Many's the time I've been able to knock another $100 or so off a car when buying from a private individual... "see here, it was an early build date, so it's got an extra winter..." makes a pretty good argument.

I do agree that it doesn't "really" make a difference, since most people don't care or don't know where to look. Once again, it's the buyers who determine the market, and not the sellers... the knowledge rests with theprofessionals, but the decision-making with the general public. Just like the prices are not determined by the auction, but by how much Joe Sixpack will fork over for a given car.

To me, as a personal thing, build date DOES make a difference. MI winters are really hard on cars, so if Carfax shows the thing was titled in April of '05 vs. September '04, that makes a difference to me.

Once a car is 5 years old, it's only a matter of "what shape is it in right now".

Finally, and I'm just going by what Terry has been saying over the years, if I were to buy a car now to put 20k a year on for 3 years, I'd MUCH rather buy a leftover '05 than an '06... three years from now, the '05 will be easier to sell.
(It doesn't make sense to me either.)

-Mathias

raybear

Many's the time I've been able to knock another $100 or so off a car when buying from a private individual... "see here, it was an early build date, so it's got an extra winter..." makes a pretty good argument.

Man, that's good! I gotta try that one sometime!

moosee

Number 1 holdback has nothin to do with if warranties and fiancing is done, it is about $280 on a Corrola and they get tht regardless, if you buy a Toyota in 5 of the southeastern states these are southeast toyota zone and they are priced different. but hold back is hold back and until you invest millions and have your name up on the sighn, this is the dealers money so why concern yourself and let that get in the way of a deal. Also the salespeople get a flat when customers come in and beat them out of there livelyhood, also they get volume bonus, so it is not that bad for the customers who dont want a man or woman to earn a living.

kyfdx

Funny.. I'm picking up a new '05 car on Friday... and, one of the first things I looked at was the plate on the door jamb, to see when it was manufactured..

It didn't really matter, since it was the only '05 of this model that they had left.. But, I still felt better to see it was manufactured in August of '05, and had only been on the dealer's lot for four weeks..

Call me crazy..

steine13

You crazy.

akangl

For a fact that my Titan was born 8/24/04, I bought it November 12, 2004, I always look at the *born on date* for any car or truck, just a habit.

Zippy was born in January of 2004 (can't remember the exact date) and I didn't get her until July 21, 2004.......not much of a market for a stripper Focus ZX3 (course I like to think she was waiting for me).

rroyce10

..... Good point Mathias, it makes for a good discussion ....

When I'm lookin' at a trade or a vehicle to be bought at the auction I always look at the build date and most important: the "in service date" ....

(example) If I'm lookin' at a 05 XYZ with 10,000 miles I might be interested .. but if the build date is September 04 and the "in service date" is June 05 then I will probably get a little weak knee'd because somebody has piled on 10k in 5 months and I'll role back the value .... that said, take a 25k 03 ABC vehicle that was built in September 02 and the in service date shows December 1st 02 ... well guess what.? .. that puppy is out of warranty in 8 days and I'll have to drop a warranty on it to move it .. so I will hit it with a different value .....

This "Especially" effects imports like Land Rovers, Benz's, Bimmers, Jag's, Porsche's, VW's, Saab's, Volvo's, etc etc etc ......



Terry.

rroyce10

..... Your Titan wasn't born - it was hatched ..... :P



Terry.

isellhondas

Have I ever had a customer look at or ask for a build date on either a new or used car!

albell

I have asked, and looked, thinking that if the car has been sitting on the lot, there's more negotiating room.

qbrozen

well, maintenance is covered, that helps alot.

As far as your brother's Disco ... I don't put much stock in anything with 38k miles being a model of reliability. If you only plan on keeping the vehicle within the warranty period, than it doesn't matter.

qbrozen

For me, its really a special circumstances kind of thing. I had never looked at the build date prior to our latest car purchase. The dealer had 3 identical units sitting on the lot (same color, options, etc) ... he asked me to pick which one we wanted. Since there were no other deciding factors, I looked at the build dates and picked the most recent.

raybear

I only had it happen recently, the customer is in Russia.

isellhondas

To sell the oldest units first just like a grocery store sells their milk.

Just makes sense. The longer a car sits, the more "lot rot" can occur.

british_rover

If you are going to take the car off road at all or tow at all then go for the LR3. I still think the LR3 is a more solid car then the XC90 since it was designed from the get go to be an SUV.

akangl

..... Your Titan wasn't born - it was hatched

Hey now, she was born.......in fact she was born a day before my birthday......making her that much better, lol.

My other Titan was born on hubby's bday......probably why it was so problematic, hehehe. :P

sbell4

wow, 20+ posts on door plates and its nonvalue.

we need to find another hobby...quickly

rhester

Sorry about that, but that's what us computer gamers talk about when WE'RE bored :P