regardless. According to my sheet, the Impala has a $3k rebate on it at the moment. What is on the contract?
I hate it when the ads show an Impala for $16,xxx and then in the fine print, it says "includes all rebates."
Tell you what I'd do if I were here, take it back to the dealership, get her trade back, and go somewhere else. Its not like there is no a shortage of hungry Chevy dealers. This way you will find out real quick if they are playing games on the money or not.
If she blindly signed paperwork without knowing the numbers, chances are that she got screwed in the deal somewhere regardless.
I'd go with his mom back to the dealer and start over. If she blindly signed paperwork based on a phone call with her son, and never knew how much she was paying, I'd bet that she got screwed somewhere. The $1000 math error could be legit, but I'd be suspicious.
Its hard to audit these things via email, but my gut says that something smells with the deal.
That same Volvo stealer that fixed the car to the tune of $6500 cash money at their own body shop .... Are the same guys that sold them some new ones RIGHT ???????? Ya might of figured somebody at that dealer would of told them about diminished damage value and such things, Maybe even got their insurance adjuster involved the process to TOTAL the car ! That is just about worthless in value. Let alone that same dealer won't take it in trade.
Awful spot to be in ! Helpfull Dealer too ! Good luck....................geo
"[...] the car sustained approx. 6,000 in damages. The car had 3,000 miles onit. [Dealer] assured us that they could get the car looking "just like new". During the repair period of approx. 1 month my wife expressed an interest in trading the car in for a 2003. We were both told ~as soon as the prices come in for the 2003 we'll give you a quote that will be 500.00 over invoice."
jfleming: Okay. So the dealership had a hard time getting their wires uncrossed... and there's been way too much back-and-forth and changing the story. So I wouldn't like to do business there, I think. But they haven't done anything wrong, from waht I can tell... they don't want your car... no surprise.. your wife don't want it either.. there's a reason... and don't thikn I don't sympathize... if my new ride got clipped, I'd have a hard time reminding myself "it's just a car"... it does hurt. I bought a trumpet used, with undisclosed damage... for a lousy $1k... 2 years ago... I'm still bitter.
The "diminished value" claim is something to look into.. might depend on the state...
Terry: You know I love you, but I don't think our friend needs a lawyer just yet. The post was in poor taste, but not libelous.
As far as the value of the car: No suggestion has been made that the car was NOT repaired right... that would be bad... but even if done right, it's worth a lot less than an "clean" unit. At $6k in damage, esp. in the rear -- i.e. front crashwortiness probably not impaired -- I don't think the value of the car is $15k. That's just another way of saying they don't want it.
Terry, think about this; If YOU were the dealer... You sold these people a car, your shop repaired it... you didn't wreck it, I'm not talking about responsibility... I'm talking about the car's value. I mean you know everytintg about the car, such as was the repair done right... Yes, it's wrecked, yes it's worth less... but $15??? What is this thing worth, unwrecked? With a measly 3k on the clock? Serious question.
The thing is, you buy a $40k import car... I think most people would want to step all the way up and get a NEW one, but what do I know? Remember, Bill W. used to say a CLK depreciates less in 2 years than a Taurus... a lot of imports don't depreciate a lot (BMW)... but Volvos are readily available, no short supply here...
This sorta stuff is really fickle, changes with the wind... noone NEEDS a Volvo... not the way someone might NEED a 1-yr-old Camry... if you know what I mean.
Depreciating 50% in one year... heck, half the cars from GM "depreciate" 30% just by the rebate and discount and financing and family and gm card $$$ thrown at them... that's BEFORE they leave the lot. Another 20%? You bet.
Oh yeah, and anyone who thinks they can buy used and not take that 20% hit when they leave the lot... I want to sell you a used car, I think.
BigO: Never mind. I'm not gonna bite.
Peace to all... I'd love to know how this one turns out... -Mathias East Lansing, MI
I'm with abtseller on this one, you've got 2 easy options:
1. Give them the $1,000, drive home and forget about it.
2. Take the car back and go buy a new Impala somewhere else (which would give me the most piece of mind if I were in your shoes)
Of course you also have the annoying option:
3. Fight with the dealer, bash them all over the internet, end up hating the dealer, the car and life in general no matter how the deal is resolved.
It funny to me how many times you see option #3 invoked and then we read about it on these boards. I suppose it makes for interesting reading the first 100 times or so it happens.
If you bought a used Volvo from the dealer then learned later that the car had been damaged to the tune of $6k but sold to you at market value, would you be upset? You bet! You'd be acusing the dealer of all sorts of dishonest things for not divulging the fact that the car had been damaged, and for not selling it at a steep discount.
Sounds like the dealer is smart enough to avoid that trap.
"So, either you were mistaken on some of your figures, just plain cheating your customers or just don't know how to calculate depreciation" What??? You take this from numbers in a book? You insult the guy who is responsible for 50+% of the "valuable" posts on this board?
I'll make you a deal. I buy all the clean V6 Sonatas I can get my hands on, and you pay me NADA wholesale for them... my daughter's college education would be in the bag inside a month. For somebody so ill informed, you're not shy about voicing your opinions.
Still willing to go with the books if ya gotta put your own money in?
I really think you need to alter the tone of your posts. The experts who post here do this as a favor to all of us "car nuts" who love the automobile. They don't get paid for this, they do it because they love cars as much as we all do. I, for one, really appreciate the time and expertice(?) they give. So please, loose the attitude! Hey guys, thanks for all the stuff you do here for us Edmundfanatics!
I have never gotten less than NADA on a trade-in of my vehicle. Neither has my dad. We know because we check them at trade-in. The value is never as much as I feel the car is worth but I realize I have to give the dealer a wholesale price. Therefore, I know NADA and KBB to be correct.
All I am asking for is a little truth here. 30% is about average for depreciation in the first year. Some are as high as 40 and some are as low as 20%. I still have not seen a car above 50% depreciation.
Are you gonna tell Edmunds that they don't know what they're talking about when they quote their depreciations?
People that come one this board need to know the truth and not misled into paying more than they should or get taken for a ride on a trad-in.
From reading the original post it appears the guy was too naive or misunderstood. It also sounds like the dealer led him on. Statements like : we will give you a new one at $500 over invoice (sign me up for the XC90 by the way at that price), and don't worry we will take care of the trade. Reading between the lines a little, I am sure when the salesman smelled a possible 2003 sale he may have made very positive murmurings to the customer. It did not appear to me that the original poster thought the dealer was obligated to buy the wrecked car. It appeared that he was given the impression by the dealer that he would get a good price on a new one and a good trade value on the wrecked one. Of course when the time came to do the deal, the dealer wanted nothing to do with the wrecked car, which is understandable and gave a really low (in the posters mind) offer on the trade.
Funny, i also interpreted the story as you said. It's funny, people usually hear what they want to hear and don't listen as well as they should. There are always two sides to any story and the truth usually lies somewhere in between. Could be a possibility here also. I do feel for the Volvo owners but I can also understand the dealerships point also. This seems to be a no win situation all the way around. Too bad for all the parties involved!
Give bigorange a break. You may be perceiving him as rude because he is to the point, but from other edmunds threads I have seen him on, he is not malicious.
The trade values being discussed are a moot point. The dealers are giving auction block prices (what the car is worth to them,which consumers cannot get) and bigorange is using NADA or KBB values. Please show me where I can buy any of the cars rroyce listed at the prices he listed. i can't because he is a dealer going to an auction (which I cannot get into) and I have to buy from a private seller or a dealer lot, at a much higher price.
Everyone here seems to knock KBB and NADA trade in values. If they are so wrong, where should a consumer look for fair trade in and used car prices? I don't include "Real World Trade in values", because most buyers or sellers are not going to know about that resource.
You are right. It is a tough situation for all. A fairly new car with that much damage would be a buyers nightmare. I agree with others that a diminished value claim or working with the delaership and the insurance company closer may have gotten a better result.
gotta figure... so lets say msrp was about 40k, take say an average of 30% off of it, you got about 28k left. take another 20-30% off the price because it is "damaged goods" now you are staring down the barrel of low 20k. Then factor in that the dealer probably still doesn't want it because then he would have to disclose it to the new buyer to avoid a fraud lawsuit, etc... he will probably wholesale this vehicle. I will bet he lowballed the vehicle, but that is the dealer's right in any case...
I'm impressed that you get NADA wholesale on all the vehicles your trade... most of the time I CAN get that, but end up paying more for the new car, etc... always works out thatway somehow...
Thank you for being civilized in your disagreement. That seems to be rare here.
I do see your point that he will have to wholesale it. Let the auction house deal with the damage issue. I calculate that with 30% depreciation and add in the cost of repairs, we have a wholesale worth of $22K. I guess if the $15k was his initial offer but he would have eventually come up to $19-20K, that should be reasonable.
What happened to the SUV tax thread? It appears gone. Are you and checkme at it in another thread? I had a few comments, but do not know where to put them. Thanks
I just wanted to add my two cents about the depreciation of new vehicles to this discussion. There are tons of vehicles out there that lose 50% of their value (compared to MSRP not selling price) during the first 12 months of ownership. Vehicles' residual values are a great way to anticipate their anticipated depreciation. Banks use these numbers to predict what certain vehicles will be worth after a specific amount of time has passed. Let's take a quick look at the residual values for certain vehicles. GMAC's unsupported 12 month residual values for Oldsmobiles are as follows, 35% for the 2003 Alero GL, 40% for the 2003 Aurura, 41% for the 2003 Bravada AWD, 40% for the Silhouette. In fact, looking at GM's residual values for all of its vehicles very very few models actually are worth more than 50% of their full MSRPs after 12 months, and these are undamaged vehicles. Vehicles that have been in accidents where they have sustained substantial amounts of damage will be worth significantly less than what the residual values show for undamaged vehicles.
I'm not taking sides in this discussion, just merely pointing out that it is indeed possible for a one year old car that has been in an accident to be worth only 50% of its original MSRP. Having said this, it sounds as though the dealership that this individual was working with could have handled the situation better. They should not have led him to believe that they would be willing to take his car off of his hands at a fair price and sell him a new one for $500 over invoice, if that is what they initially did. It is difficult to say what actually happened because none of us were physically there when these conversations took place. The most likely explanation is that an over zealous salesperson told him that they would take his vehicle as a trade and give him a new one at a reasonable price and then was told otherwise by management or whoever down the road. Either way the situation certainly seems to have gotten out of hand.
Please continue to discuss this matter in this area, but if you are going to do so, make sure it is in a civil manner and in compliance with the Edmunds.com Town Hall Membership Agreement. Thanks.
Did make one mistake. He should have immediatly told the owner that they would not be interested in buying the car. Instead, it sounds like they waffled around and stuttered and stammered, afraid to tell the owner the truth.
They simply DO NOT want to sell a previously wrecked, almost new Volvo even though it may be fixed properly.
Volvo buyers are (sorry)a particular breed. They are very picky and they would stay way clear of a car that's been wrecked, no matter the price.
And, I'm no expert, but I know getting a diminished value claim is nearly impossible.
And...bigorange...you are way out of your league here. You are taking NADA and Kelly book values as gospel. Many cars, in reality won't bring anything near "book" prices.
Terry is an expert who attends auctions every week. He watches the Kias, Saturns, Neons and many others as they bring 2000.00 or less "back of book". By arguing with him, you are embarrassing yourself here. You can learn a lot by listening to him and some of the others who are in the business.
That same greedy dealer had NO problem doing a $6500 repair job tho. ! I think they could of advised the guy better ! But $6500 is $6500 The customer be "darned".................geo
But did the customer tell the dealership at the time. Fix this up because I want to trade it in?
The answer to this we don't know.
It could be the best repair job ever done and well worth the $6500 to someone who was planning to keep the vehicle for a few hundred thousand miles. We really don't know.
However, because the customer now doesn't want the damaged vehicle doesn't require that the dealership offer more than it is worth to them.
Besides, that would have to be a very hard unit to sell. Very low mileage, recently wrecked.
If Jeff wants a lot for this vehicle, why not sell it himself and explain to the potential buyers what happened to it.
That basically what he wants the dealership to do. However, he doesn't want to pay the rate the dealership wants to do that for him.
Don't come around here talking about Jesus and then saying you will defend yourself if attacked. As I recall, when HE was attacked, he remained silent, and did not attack his accusers though innocent.
So much for not being a noisy gong, forgiving others, and the Golden Rule.
I do have real difficulty turning the other cheek as Jesus did and teaches us to do. It is very difficult. Calling people names and talking about forgiveness in the same breath. That's just not nice.
I was merely pointing out that those who try to expose the truth will not be popular for it.
I appreciate the way you presented the facts you know Car_man. That was very imformative and enlightening. I was not aware of GMAC's list of residual values. Where can I see this for any car I migh be interested in?
isell: I can listen to anyone who presents information in this positive fashion. I don't have any respect for people (or the information they present) who attack me at the same time. Respect begets respect. I am a human being and deserve as much respect as you or he does.
Are there car dealers out there that are willing to have a respectful conversation?
You have brought this on yourself. Respect has to be earned. You have done little to contribute to these discussions and have, for the most part, been a troublemaker with all of the answers.
I will take the high road at this point and will be done with you.
...... Wow, talk about trying to put fires out with gasoline ..! .l.o.l...
I'm not trying to defend the dealer or the "potential" buyer -- this should be based on the facts. And right now, all we really have is a - Volvo (don't know what model or year) that has had some major damage - we have a disgruntled buyer that feels he paid too much for it - we have a conversation that no one has heard, except for the folks that were actually there - and we have figures that you don't agree on.
The numbers that I gave you, are figures that are based on whats going on at the auctions .. these figures are what the dealers pay and also an amount that the vehicles are worth (Real money), not Nada, not Edmunds, not KBB, not Galves, it's what they are doing as of Thursday .. if you feel you have received a figure more than that, then God bless you ~ ever hear of a over allowance ..? I'm not going to break all of this down for you .. (example)but "S" type Jags are not $44,000 they run over $60 grand, but you knew this .. right.? And yes, I can buy 02's for the $31ish figure all day long - as any dealer can, and does. Thats the Real World trade-in Value ..
Put all that nonsense aside for a minute, most of these folks here, are not here to defend anyone, just to get all the facts straight .. I feel we will know a whole bunch more when the original poster drops his head in, to clarify some things, sometimes it's very easy to shoot the messenger .. there is 3 sides to every story ~ his side, the dealers side .. and the truth.! I think the only exercise here, is jumping too conclusions ..
Most of the nice folks here spend their OWN time, research and patience to help others to try not to make a lot of mistakes, via some Real Deal information, not jumping too conclusions, and not dropping their next door neighbors, brother in laws, soccer friends opinions on these boards .. so please~ kick back, relax, take a few deep breaths and you might find out, that you have no enemies here .. except for the mirror in front of you.
Stealers do this EVERYDAY ! How many times on these boards do some sales folks forget about the cries of dumb poor sap buying a half wrecked then repaired "creampuff" with undisclosed major repair damage by a stealer ! And some of you rag on BO...and demand the wrecked guys car story be deleted.......HA HA...FIGURES YOUR RESPONSE ! Make ME want to trust anything some of you POST!. Especially when a few of you guys have standard mop & glow on your cars, along with the ADM stickers, and lets not forget your SE> NE. dist fees etc. YOU know who you are !................geo
I was quoting that $46.2K from Edmunds on that '02 Jag "S" type. It has a range of $44-50K. The $46.2K was including what I thought might be the most popular options but is it admittedly a guess. I saw where the range for th '03 "S" type was $42-62K, maybe that's where we're miscommunicating on that one.
Also, I am wondering if a potential buyer strolls through this discussion and sees how a buyer gets jumped on when they disagree with a dealer, how does he view that. Does he become jaded toward dealers because he's afraid he will not be able to negotiate a good deal at a dealership? Does he fear that he may be treated poorly while he's there? I know I am more leary of dealers now than before I came here to join this discussion. I might be any one of your neighbors or I might be the next buyer to walk into your dealership. You just don't know. Do you want the next buyer that walks into your dealership to have been recently accosted by some other car dealer? That might not put into a very good mood coming in to the negotiation.
where can I pick up "a base 02 S type with a sticker of approx $50,0, those can be had for the $25ish"?
I can't. I believe what you and the other dealers are basing your info on, but me as a non dealer has to use some kind of measuring tool that is available to me, ie KBB and NADA. I think from reading the posts, that is what bigorange is getting at. You are right he is not a dealer, so he has no idea what a car goes for at auction, but he does know what KBB and nada say and what he would have to pay if he bought the car from a dealer or private seller.
I know an XC90 cost the dealer invoice or less, but can I buy one for that? No way.
I know that's not gonna fly with them so let me help you with this one. We have to talk about wholesale values here which we will never be able to buy for. The point is not what we can buy it for but what we should get for a car on trade-in. That should be wholesale and admittedly has to have some subtracted from it for being wrecked. The main issue here seems to be how much a car should be discounted because it has to be labeled "wrecked". What he said though was that he could buy the '02 Jag "S" type for about $31K and that it cost $62K brand new. I have not found information anywhere that says it cost near that new but have found it at $50K max new. The '03 could get up to $62K if loaded from what I can tell.
Well of course dealers can buy cars for less than you. That's rather obvious. In the Volvo guy's case, he was trying to sell it to a dealer. So who cares what a private individual would pay? That would be relevant only if he was trying to sell to a private party.
bigorange,
What are you still going on about? Did you read the post by Car_man where he said:
"There are tons of vehicles out there that lose 50% of their value (compared to MSRP not selling price) during the first 12 months of ownership."
I know it's tempting to jump to personal attacks but let's stick to the topic okay?
Apparently you agree with Terry, and Car_man that some vehicles do drop 50% in value in the first year - without being damaged. I can only infer from your last post that you did indeed read their posts.
So now that we have that out of the way, what are you trying to say?
The whole value issue? Let me repeat what Terry's saying - the books are great if you're putting your car in the paper and need to know what to write on the window or if teh bank wants to figure out how much to loan you, but Terry (and I) take experience from what these cars actually bring at auction, not what some fantasy book says they should be worth.
The Volvo deal - I would have RUN from that car. The dealer spoke WAY out of turn if they made any promises - that I know. There's no way you're going to get someone to offer you a "book" value for a car that just got whacked and had $6K worth of body work - it ain't happening.
I'm an appraiser - it's what I do all day. My job rotates around what affect certain elements of a car's history has on the overall value. Major body damage, just like a car with water leaks and major electrical problems, are "hands off" vehicles.
A dealer would be crazy to buy it because they'll get the snot sued out of them if they don't disclose the problem to the potential buyer and if they do disclose, what consumer in their right mind would pay retail for a vehicle with major issues when they could get one just like it with no history? How can anyone hold it against this dealer in the name of "customer service"? You can't ask the dealer to take a $10K loss (my appraisal) on a car out of "customer service' and you can't expect them to set themselves up for a lawsuit, either!
Comments
I hate it when the ads show an Impala for $16,xxx and then in the fine print, it says "includes all rebates."
Tell you what I'd do if I were here, take it back to the dealership, get her trade back, and go somewhere else. Its not like there is no a shortage of hungry Chevy dealers. This way you will find out real quick if they are playing games on the money or not.
If she blindly signed paperwork without knowing the numbers, chances are that she got screwed in the deal somewhere regardless.
Ed
Terry.
Its hard to audit these things via email, but my gut says that something smells with the deal.
Ed
of $6500 cash money at their own body shop ....
Are the same guys that sold them some new ones
RIGHT ????????
Ya might of figured somebody at that dealer would of told them about diminished damage value and such things, Maybe even got their insurance adjuster involved the process to TOTAL the car ! That is just about worthless in value. Let alone that same dealer won't take it in trade.
Awful spot to be in ! Helpfull Dealer too !
Good luck....................geo
"[...] the car sustained approx. 6,000 in damages. The car had 3,000 miles onit. [Dealer] assured us that they could get the car looking "just like new". During the repair period of approx. 1 month my wife expressed an interest in trading the car in for a 2003. We were both told ~as soon as the prices come in for the 2003 we'll give you a quote that will be 500.00 over invoice."
jfleming: Okay. So the dealership had a hard time getting their wires uncrossed... and there's been way too much back-and-forth and changing the story. So I wouldn't like to do business there, I think. But they haven't done anything wrong, from waht I can tell... they don't want your car... no surprise.. your wife don't want it either.. there's a reason... and don't thikn I don't sympathize... if my new ride got clipped, I'd have a hard time reminding myself "it's just a car"... it does hurt. I bought a trumpet used, with undisclosed damage... for a lousy $1k... 2 years ago... I'm still bitter.
The "diminished value" claim is something to look into.. might depend on the state...
Terry: You know I love you, but I don't think our friend needs a lawyer just yet. The post was in poor taste, but not libelous.
As far as the value of the car: No suggestion has been made that the car was NOT repaired right... that would be bad... but even if done right, it's worth a lot less than an "clean" unit. At $6k in damage, esp. in the rear -- i.e. front crashwortiness probably not impaired -- I don't think the value of the car is $15k. That's just another way of saying they don't want it.
Terry, think about this; If YOU were the dealer... You sold these people a car, your shop repaired it... you didn't wreck it, I'm not talking about responsibility... I'm talking about the car's value. I mean you know everytintg about the car, such as was the repair done right...
Yes, it's wrecked, yes it's worth less... but $15??? What is this thing worth, unwrecked? With a measly 3k on the clock? Serious question.
The thing is, you buy a $40k import car... I think most people would want to step all the way up and get a NEW one, but what do I know? Remember, Bill W. used to say a CLK depreciates less in 2 years than a Taurus... a lot of imports don't depreciate a lot (BMW)... but Volvos are readily available, no short supply here...
This sorta stuff is really fickle, changes with the wind... noone NEEDS a Volvo... not the way someone might NEED a 1-yr-old Camry... if you know what I mean.
Depreciating 50% in one year... heck, half the cars from GM "depreciate" 30% just by the rebate and discount and financing and family and gm card $$$ thrown at them... that's BEFORE they leave the lot. Another 20%? You bet.
Oh yeah, and anyone who thinks they can buy used and not take that 20% hit when they leave the lot... I want to sell you a used car, I think.
BigO: Never mind. I'm not gonna bite.
Peace to all... I'd love to know how this one turns out...
-Mathias
East Lansing, MI
1. Give them the $1,000, drive home and forget about it.
2. Take the car back and go buy a new Impala somewhere else (which would give me the most piece of mind if I were in your shoes)
Of course you also have the annoying option:
3. Fight with the dealer, bash them all over the internet, end up hating the dealer, the car and life in general no matter how the deal is resolved.
It funny to me how many times you see option #3 invoked and then we read about it on these boards. I suppose it makes for interesting reading the first 100 times or so it happens.
Sounds like the dealer is smart enough to avoid that trap.
Some of your figures don't check out. For example:
New 2002 Hyundai Sonata V6 $16K - 12.6K used (NADA) = 21% depreciation
Even if I did believe your "10's" quote it would only be 38% depreciation. Still not 50%.
New Jaguar 2002 4.0 "S" type $46.2k - 30.0 used (KBB) is 35% depreciation, not 50%.
New M Benz C230 $27.6K - 23.1 used (NADA)
So, either you were mistaken on some of your figures, just plain cheating your customers or just don't know how to calculate depreciation.
"So, either you were mistaken on some of your figures, just plain cheating your customers or just don't know how to calculate depreciation"
What??? You take this from numbers in a book? You insult the guy who is responsible for 50+% of the "valuable" posts on this board?
I'll make you a deal. I buy all the clean V6 Sonatas I can get my hands on, and you pay me NADA wholesale for them... my daughter's college education would be in the bag inside a month. For somebody so ill informed, you're not shy about voicing your opinions.
Still willing to go with the books if ya gotta put your own money in?
-Mathias
Hey guys, thanks for all the stuff you do here for us Edmundfanatics!
The Sandman :-)
All I am asking for is a little truth here. 30% is about average for depreciation in the first year. Some are as high as 40 and some are as low as 20%. I still have not seen a car above 50% depreciation.
Are you gonna tell Edmunds that they don't know what they're talking about when they quote their depreciations?
People that come one this board need to know the truth and not misled into paying more than they should or get taken for a ride on a trad-in.
just the way I read it.
This seems to be a no win situation all the way around. Too bad for all the parties involved!
The Sandman :-)
The trade values being discussed are a moot point. The dealers are giving auction block prices (what the car is worth to them,which consumers cannot get) and bigorange is using NADA or KBB values. Please show me where I can buy any of the cars rroyce listed at the prices he listed. i can't because he is a dealer going to an auction (which I cannot get into) and I have to buy from a private seller or a dealer lot, at a much higher price.
Everyone here seems to knock KBB and NADA trade in values. If they are so wrong, where should a consumer look for fair trade in and used car prices? I don't include "Real World Trade in values", because most buyers or sellers are not going to know about that resource.
If his wife wants a new car, he should tell her to get a job and earn the money to buy one.
You know, since we have lost Ann Landers, maybe I could become an advice columnist.
Matt 18:21-22
Matt 22:35-40
And that is all I will say on that subject.
I'm impressed that you get NADA wholesale on all the vehicles your trade... most of the time I CAN get that, but end up paying more for the new car, etc... always works out thatway somehow...
I do see your point that he will have to wholesale it. Let the auction house deal with the damage issue. I calculate that with 30% depreciation and add in the cost of repairs, we have a wholesale worth of $22K. I guess if the $15k was his initial offer but he would have eventually come up to $19-20K, that should be reasonable.
"Thank you for being civilized in your disagreement. That seems to be rare here."
I have nothing to add, but I thought I'd put the two next to one another.
-Mathias
When attacked during a civilized discussion, I can hold my own. Why can't we have a discussion without the pot shots and personal attacks.
TB
I'm not taking sides in this discussion, just merely pointing out that it is indeed possible for a one year old car that has been in an accident to be worth only 50% of its original MSRP. Having said this, it sounds as though the dealership that this individual was working with could have handled the situation better. They should not have led him to believe that they would be willing to take his car off of his hands at a fair price and sell him a new one for $500 over invoice, if that is what they initially did. It is difficult to say what actually happened because none of us were physically there when these conversations took place. The most likely explanation is that an over zealous salesperson told him that they would take his vehicle as a trade and give him a new one at a reasonable price and then was told otherwise by management or whoever down the road. Either way the situation certainly seems to have gotten out of hand.
Please continue to discuss this matter in this area, but if you are going to do so, make sure it is in a civil manner and in compliance with the Edmunds.com Town Hall Membership Agreement. Thanks.
Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
pf_flyer "Do SUVs desrve a big new tax Break?" Jan 25, 2003 9:00am
TB
They simply DO NOT want to sell a previously wrecked, almost new Volvo even though it may be fixed properly.
Volvo buyers are (sorry)a particular breed. They are very picky and they would stay way clear of a car that's been wrecked, no matter the price.
And, I'm no expert, but I know getting a diminished value claim is nearly impossible.
And...bigorange...you are way out of your league here. You are taking NADA and Kelly book values as gospel. Many cars, in reality won't bring anything near "book" prices.
Terry is an expert who attends auctions every week. He watches the Kias, Saturns, Neons and many others as they bring 2000.00 or less "back of book". By arguing with him, you are embarrassing yourself here. You can learn a lot by listening to him and some of the others who are in the business.
a $6500 repair job tho. ! I think they could
of advised the guy better ! But $6500 is $6500
The customer be "darned".................geo
At the time, they probably had no idea that the customer would want to dump the car. I think this was decided later.
If they knew this, I guess they could have said.
" We can fix your Volvo. We will do a great job and it'll be like new but if you decide to trade it in after it's fixed, we won't want it"
Of course, the body shop and sales department probably aren't even in the same building.
I do think the original slanderous posting should be promptly deleted.
The answer to this we don't know.
It could be the best repair job ever done and well worth the $6500 to someone who was planning to keep the vehicle for a few hundred thousand miles. We really don't know.
However, because the customer now doesn't want the damaged vehicle doesn't require that the dealership offer more than it is worth to them.
Besides, that would have to be a very hard unit to sell. Very low mileage, recently wrecked.
If Jeff wants a lot for this vehicle, why not sell it himself and explain to the potential buyers what happened to it.
That basically what he wants the dealership to do. However, he doesn't want to pay the rate the dealership wants to do that for him.
TB
Don't come around here talking about Jesus and then saying you will defend yourself if attacked. As I recall, when HE was attacked, he remained silent, and did not attack his accusers though innocent.
So much for not being a noisy gong, forgiving others, and the Golden Rule.
I was merely pointing out that those who try to expose the truth will not be popular for it.
I appreciate the way you presented the facts you know Car_man. That was very imformative and enlightening. I was not aware of GMAC's list of residual values. Where can I see this for any car I migh be interested in?
isell: I can listen to anyone who presents information in this positive fashion. I don't have any respect for people (or the information they present) who attack me at the same time. Respect begets respect. I am a human being and deserve as much respect as you or he does.
Are there car dealers out there that are willing to have a respectful conversation?
I will take the high road at this point and will be done with you.
I tried...
I'm not trying to defend the dealer or the "potential" buyer -- this should be based on the facts. And right now, all we really have is a - Volvo (don't know what model or year) that has had some major damage - we have a disgruntled buyer that feels he paid too much for it - we have a conversation that no one has heard, except for the folks that were actually there - and we have figures that you don't agree on.
The numbers that I gave you, are figures that are based on whats going on at the auctions .. these figures are what the dealers pay and also an amount that the vehicles are worth (Real money), not Nada, not Edmunds, not KBB, not Galves, it's what they are doing as of Thursday .. if you feel you have received a figure more than that, then God bless you ~ ever hear of a over allowance ..? I'm not going to break all of this down for you .. (example)but "S" type Jags are not $44,000 they run over $60 grand, but you knew this .. right.? And yes, I can buy 02's for the $31ish figure all day long - as any dealer can, and does. Thats the Real World trade-in Value ..
Put all that nonsense aside for a minute, most of these folks here, are not here to defend anyone, just to get all the facts straight .. I feel we will know a whole bunch more when the original poster drops his head in, to clarify some things, sometimes it's very easy to shoot the messenger .. there is 3 sides to every story ~ his side, the dealers side .. and the truth.! I think the only exercise here, is jumping too conclusions ..
Most of the nice folks here spend their OWN time, research and patience to help others to try not to make a lot of mistakes, via some Real Deal information, not jumping too conclusions, and not dropping their next door neighbors, brother in laws, soccer friends opinions on these boards .. so please~ kick back, relax, take a few deep breaths and you might find out, that you have no enemies here .. except for the mirror in front of you.
Happy Super Bowl Day ..!
Goooooo Raiders ............!
Terry :-)
on these boards do some sales folks forget about
the cries of dumb poor sap buying a half wrecked
then repaired "creampuff" with undisclosed major
repair damage by a stealer ! And some of you
rag on BO...and demand the wrecked guys car story
be deleted.......HA HA...FIGURES YOUR RESPONSE !
Make ME want to trust anything some of you POST!.
Especially when a few of you guys have standard
mop & glow on your cars, along with the ADM stickers,
and lets not forget your SE> NE. dist fees etc.
YOU know who you are !................geo
Terry ;-)
Yea probably in fantasyland..........geo
Also, I am wondering if a potential buyer strolls through this discussion and sees how a buyer gets jumped on when they disagree with a dealer, how does he view that. Does he become jaded toward dealers because he's afraid he will not be able to negotiate a good deal at a dealership? Does he fear that he may be treated poorly while he's there? I know I am more leary of dealers now than before I came here to join this discussion. I might be any one of your neighbors or I might be the next buyer to walk into your dealership. You just don't know. Do you want the next buyer that walks into your dealership to have been recently accosted by some other car dealer? That might not put into a very good mood coming in to the negotiation.
Do you ever tell your buyers that they don't know what their talking about?
I can't. I believe what you and the other dealers are basing your info on, but me as a non dealer has to use some kind of measuring tool that is available to me, ie KBB and NADA. I think from reading the posts, that is what bigorange is getting at. You are right he is not a dealer, so he has no idea what a car goes for at auction, but he does know what KBB and nada say and what he would have to pay if he bought the car from a dealer or private seller.
I know an XC90 cost the dealer invoice or less, but can I buy one for that? No way.
bigorange,
What are you still going on about? Did you read the post by Car_man where he said:
"There are tons of vehicles out there that lose 50% of their value (compared to MSRP not selling price) during the first 12 months of ownership."
Apparently you agree with Terry, and Car_man that some vehicles do drop 50% in value in the first year - without being damaged. I can only infer from your last post that you did indeed read their posts.
So now that we have that out of the way, what are you trying to say?
The Volvo deal - I would have RUN from that car. The dealer spoke WAY out of turn if they made any promises - that I know. There's no way you're going to get someone to offer you a "book" value for a car that just got whacked and had $6K worth of body work - it ain't happening.
I'm an appraiser - it's what I do all day. My job rotates around what affect certain elements of a car's history has on the overall value. Major body damage, just like a car with water leaks and major electrical problems, are "hands off" vehicles.
A dealer would be crazy to buy it because they'll get the snot sued out of them if they don't disclose the problem to the potential buyer and if they do disclose, what consumer in their right mind would pay retail for a vehicle with major issues when they could get one just like it with no history? How can anyone hold it against this dealer in the name of "customer service"? You can't ask the dealer to take a $10K loss (my appraisal) on a car out of "customer service' and you can't expect them to set themselves up for a lawsuit, either!