but the cars car_man mentioned had two strikes against them
gms and discontinued to boot.
cars that have an expected life-span around 50- 100,000 miles are going to depreciate drastically because this in no more than 2-6 years worth of use.
know someone who bought a new Suburban and after two years, the cooling system started acting up, and it blew various parts of its engine...
while the owner was following the manual to the letter and not driving it showing hot.
just for investigatory repair, the initial estimate 3k.
this car has gone from a 35k asset when it was on the dealer's lot to a major liability that will probably need major and expensive life-support for the rest of its natural born life
so what's it worth now?
not much for anyone knowing its history
that's why i stick mostly to hondas.
after getting wacked from behind hard enough to convert the back seat into a trunk (walked away without much of a scratch), i received about 90% original value - after a couple years of fairly hard driving.
Let me try to make this a simple as possible for you. You obviously didn't read rroyce's #2548 post or masspectors #2558 post to see that the only real issue we are discussing is the cost of a new '02 Jag "S" Type. rroyce says that it is $62K but it appears that the '02 only went up to $50K but the '03 does go up to $62K.
You were not involved in this discussion but jumped in and attacked me. Why was this needed?
..... If you will spend the time and use that "click" feature on Edmunds options for the vehicle, you will be able to see the $60 ---- man, you are a hard head .............
we weren't talking about fully loaded ones. However, I went in and added ALL of the options on to it and still got only a $56K TMV. The TMV for the base model was only $39K.
Just trying to get the REAL facts here to keep from misleading people. $39K is a long way from $60.
If I am trying to rely on someone for information, I need a way to verify they are believable. If we can't agree on information that I CAN verify, how am I supposed to be able to trust you on information that I can't verify?
ORDER a base, unloaded Jaguar anything?? Only a dealer who wanted to set new records for how long he sat on a vehicle!! That one's guaranteed to have a birthday on the lot!
We had a number of hits on base Jags, BMWs and Benzes when I was online. Most were willing to trade up, but a few had limited resources and wanted to drive a nameplate.
A dealer in a populated area should keep a base car in stock to advertise as a teaser.
Terry was talking about the level of trim and models that inhabit the larger Jaguar population, and bigorange still thinks the books are the Gospel and the guys who are at the auction 3-4 days a week don't know what they're talking about.
Go figure - of course an engineer, with no appraisal experience, knows more about vehicle value than a guy who has bought and sold literally thousands of vehicles! What was I thinking??
B.O, please continue to comment, on subjects that you might actually know something about. If you will check the title of this topic, I believe this rules you out.
that I can trust to give me valuable accurate information on subjects like these. Unfortunately, I haven't found many of them yet.
absteller: your post has no relevance since people from all over the car industry including buyers are welcome here. How do expect buyers to come in here and ask questions if you trash them when they do?
If the topic is specifically asking for the advice of a "car dealer" which you're not, and you refuse to listen to the information provided, then I, and others, will continue to view you as unteachable and nothing more than a heckler to be further ignored.
I received two offers to trade my car for a new one from different dealers. The bottom line of both was identical (well, actually $4 difference). One of the offers gave $500 more for my trade than the other and $500 less discount on the new car. The second dealer knew what the target to match was and asked me how it was broken down which I told him, then reached the same bottom line but in a different way. What I'd like to know is why would he do that? What advantage is it to value my trade $500 higher than the first dealer? I'm happy with the deal, just curious.
bigorange - I have no idea how many vehicles, exactly, Terry has touched and seen while buying and selling, but it's far more than I have and my personal count is WAY over 10,000 vehicles.
If that level of experience isn't good enough, I GUARANTEE you won't find anything better, experience-wise. Take it or leave it.
I thought you were intelligent, but it scares me that you can't get your brain around the concept that those books are merely guides and many, many factors determine a vehicle's true value.
Here's an attachment I use in my case reports:
Attachment 2 to Expert Report of James Lewis
APPRAISAL GUIDELINES
From the Kelley “Blue” Book:
"Good" condition means that the vehicle is free of any major defects or a history of mechanical problems. The paint, body and interior have only minor (if any) blemishes, and there are no current mechanical problems. Trade-In Value (average)
"Fair" condition means that the vehicle probably has had some mechanical or cosmetic defects, but is still in safe running condition. Trade-In Value (below average)
"Poor" condition means that the vehicle has severe mechanical and/or cosmetic defects and may be in questionable running condition. “Dealers are not usually interested in a vehicle with current mechanical problems since repair costs are unknown”. Trade-In Value (none)
According to the National Auto Dealers Association (NADA) guidelines, Average Trade-In Price represents a clean vehicle in good condition and is assumed to have a “clean” title history. Additionally, the guide shows that (a) “vehicle should be clean and without glaring defects. Tires and glass should be in good condition. The paint should match and have a good finish”.
In my opinion, and in the opinion of most appraisers, “glaring defects” refers to major body damage and mechanical conditions that effect the value, whether the condition is current or recorded in a substantial service/warranty history. If the vehicle were determined to have any “glaring defects”, it would be passed over as a retail vehicle, especially when most vehicles are very plentiful in the market.
From the Galves Auto Price List (a major auction value guide) – “the listings in this price guide are for clean, original, specific-mileage vehicles. Experience has shown that most dealers recognize the definition of a ‘clean’ automobile” ”Desirability, color combinations, condition and warranty status are all important factors in pricing.”
From the Galves Website:
Once the dealer has taken your vehicle in trade, he usually has three main options. The dealer can:
1) Sell the vehicle to a wholesale buyer who regularly visits the dealership. The wholesale buyer makes a living by reselling to another dealer or selling the vehicle from his own used car lot. Keep in mind that a wholesale buyer will pay only a 'wholesale" price as he seeks to make a profit from the transaction.
2) Take the vehicle to a wholesale auction. This requires additional time and money. The dealer must clean and transport the vehicle and pay auction fees. The results can be very unpredictable. On a good day, only about 50% of the dealers vehicles will get sold at a wholesale auction. The remainder must either wait for another auction or be returned to the dealer.
3) Enter the vehicle into his retail inventory and sell it. In this case the dealer would typically incur expenses for the following: · Cosmetic and mechanical reconditioning · Financing Inventory · Advertising Inventory · Employees salaries and commissions · Warrantees Dealers choose either option #1 or #2 when the trade-in is not of retail quality, the mileage is too high, the model of the vehicle does not appeal to them or they do not want the financial obligation of holding the vehicle in their inventory.
Option #3 occurs only when the dealer sees a legitimate potential for him to retail the vehicle. If he chooses to retail the vehicle, he needs to own it at a point where he can incur the expenses listed above and still make a profit. Regardless of which option the dealer chooses, he must own the car for a realistic "wholesale" price so he can re-sell it and not lose money.
Big-O, dealer guys: Let me suggest something. Things have gotten off to a bad start here, with Big-O for whatever reason - unimportant now. How about we all agree to back up, smile at each other and wipe the figuratve slate clean and start over (with a new issue, please...) I suggest both sides wipe away the blame they may attribute to the previous circuitous conversation (forget the "he said it first" even if you are convinced he did, and whoever "he" may be.) :-)
Big-O - you have wandered into the midst of an unusual group of car dealer representatives here. They're actually a pretty good bunch of guys, most of whom don't work like many salespeople out there in the B&M world. These guys collectively want to see the reputation of their profession cleaned up and more respect earned from the public. I know that's hard to believe, but I assure you it's true. Please give them a chance to respond in a neutral dialog that doesn't start with an attitude based on preconceptions.
Salesfolks: I suspect Big-O came in here expecting the same kind of environment he has observed in some dealerships, and the exchange has deteriorated from there - he was expecting a runaround, and responded accordingly. You read insults in his words, and things spiralled downward from there. Let's start over and see where it goes.
that just because something's in print, it doesn't make is Gospel and just because guys love cars, it doesn't make them liars.
As long as those two are pre-requisites, I'm in - otherwise, I'd rather have a railroad spike stuck in my eye than argue with BO any more over car stuff.
They don't want to bully "us buyers". I don't think I've ever been nullied on these boards. I've been set straight a few times and Terry has "sent me to my room" once, but if the discussion remains civil most of the salesman are quite easy to get along with.
when I said I would start over zues although I could have.
I agree with the fact that just because something's in print doesn't mean its true. However, you must remember, that just because you say it and SAY your an expert on the subject, doesn't mean that its true to me. To trust you, I have to experience what you say is true. So far, SOME of what you have said just doesn't square up with my experience. Just give me some time to get to know you and experience what you say and not take pot shots at me for something I say. Even if what I say is not true, you don't have to insult a person to respond. All you have to say is "Well, that's just different than my experience" and leave it at that. People out there that already trust you will trust your experience more. My opinion is just an opinion. My experience is also not something you can just say doesn't happen because I know different.
Now, the last trade-in I did was before 9/11 and I know the car business has changed some since then. If dealers are not offering as much now and making the books inaccurate, then that's where I made the mistake but I did get NADA wholesale price on all of my 5 trade-ins before that.
However, the misquote you made was about how you think I said that all guys who love cars are liars. That's not even close to anything I have said.
"However, you must remember, that just because you say it and SAY your an expert on the subject, doesn't mean that its true to me. To trust you, I have to experience what you say is true."
It sounds like you are a "Doubting Thomas" by nature. There's a difference between an educated consumer and a cynic.
OT.. Question for you- I am a Meteorologist. If you never saw a tornado, would you believe me if I told you how one develops?
In reading the last few hundred posts (all set off, incidentally by a single post from someone we haven't heard from since), it seems one of your sticking points is that you don't agree with the pricing model that the salesmen here espouse. This belief on your part seems to stem from your perceived experiences in trading cars and getting better than average values for them.
It also seems that the last such transaction you participated in was sometime in the last 2 to 3 years. I wonder if you might indulge the readers of this thread in the following way:
Dig out the paperwork for your last transaction and report all the numbers here. You would need to include the vehicle you traded, its mileage at trade, color, equipment, condition. Next, information about the vehicle you purchased, including MSRP and what the dealer showed you paying for it. Also include any rebates, downpayments, etc.
I think if the dealers here get a chance to evaluate a real deal that you were a part of, they will have two choices:
1. Agree that you got a very good deal, and that you are justified in your belief that you are able to get very good results in your business negotiations. As a result, they'll have to admit that you "beat" the model they're working from, and they'll have to agree that your perceptions are justified.
2. They'll get an opportunity to explain from real numbers why you didn't get as good a deal as you thought, perhaps as a result of an overallowance on your trade. If this is the case, I hope you'll openly listen to what they're trying to explain.
Either way, we'll should at least be able to discuss a more concrete example of real world pricing.
My earlier post seems to have got buried in the repaired Volvo saga, either that or the question it poses has been answered before a hundred times in which case I apologise for asking it again. What I asked was this:
I received two offers to trade my car for a new one from different dealers. The bottom line of both was identical (well, actually $4 difference). One of the offers gave $500 more for my trade than the other and $500 less discount on the new car. The second dealer knew what the target to match was and asked me how it was broken down which I told him, then reached the same bottom line but in a different way. What I'd like to know is why would he do that? What advantage is it to value my trade $500 higher than the first dealer? I'm happy with the deal, just curious.
You are learning a valuable lesson in your experience...
from the dealers stand point...I can shuffle the top numbers (selling price & trade-in allowance) any number of ways to appease the customers way of buying....as you found out. the key is to keeping your focus on the bottom line number.
Often, many buyers don't worry about the bottom line.. they get very focused on the trade in allowance...or the discount amount on the new car and ignore the bottom line.....with this type of buyer I can create the illusion the buyer is looking for and make the deal happen.....you figured out the smart way....Watch the bottom line...
All good suggestions but my situation is that I own my trade-in and am in the fortunate position of not needing to finance the new car. Also I made it quite clear that it was the difference that I was interested in so there was no need to massage my car's trade-in to make me feel better. I speculated that the dealer treats new and used as separate profit centres and maybe needed to improve his new car sales figures. In case it makes any difference I am trading in a Corolla against a Corolla.
Audia8q: That lesson plus others were learnt by reading this topic and others. As you say, a very useful lesson.
I think you probably hit the nail on the head here. In most stores, new and used are completely separate departments. Each with a manager who is responsible for maximizing the profit in his department. If the 2nd store put $500 more into your trade then that's $500 more to the new car dept. Perhaps store #2's new car manager has more "clout" than the used car manager and decided to structure the deal in favour of the new car dept. Perhaps the used car dept. was already well over budget and the new car dept. needed some help. Many permutations are possible. Bottom line is the same to you though.
I should have known better, but being home due to "use it or lose it" vacation day, and seeing an ad in yesterday's Star Ledger for a car I really like, I decided to give it a shot.
In NJ, a car advertised must have the VIN, so I went to the dealer's web site and the car was still listed. It was even one of the colors I like. So yesterday, I drove out to the dealer and snooped around, and did not find the car.
So, this morning, I called the dealership, spoke with a salesman I had contacted before, and asked about the car in the ad. Yes, it was still available. Ok, I said I would be there in a bit.
Removed the snow off the car, and had it washed, and drove out there.
I get to the dealership, and apologize as traffic was a bit heavy, even though by this time rush hour should have been well over. We establish that I do have a trade-in, and that the new car is available. The SM gets my car keys and proceeds to drive the car.
I'm offered $500 less than what I expected, and I wasn't expecting much. When I ask where the new car is so I can look at it, I'm told it is at their "storage lot".
At this point, I politely thanked the salesman and left.
I would have expected to at the very least be able to sit in the car, if not test drive it. If they had told me the car wasn't at the new car lot, I wouldn't have wasted my time in going up there. But I was stupid, I should have specifically asked where the car was and if I could have test driven it.
But here's my question. What's Galves? They were waving the Galves book around and I have no idea what that is, where they get their numbers from, or how those numbers correlate to KBB or NADA (which I know are just guides anyway).
I use Galves as it shows auction trends and more realistic numbers than Kelly or NADA.
bigorange - I've justified my status in life to all teh people I've needed to at this point - believe what you want - I certainly don't get paid to be here or get paid by advice given. My words are free, take them or leave them.
One thing, though - I could never keep up with you in a discussion concerning the depths of your engineering work. I wouldn't try, because I don't have the education or experience to talk "on-level" with you. I have a great deal of automotive experience and that has turned into a wonderful career for me. You can either work with me or work against me - I'll still pop in here, answer a few questions, make a few comments and leave.
What should I expect if I try to "order" a new car to my specifications and not take one off the lot? How long should it take and should I expect to put any $$ up front? My problem is not that I want a lot of extras, but that I only want a few. Most cars on the lots seem to have a lot of options that I do not want/don't want to pay for. For instance, the Mazda MPV's I like have a nice base price, but most of the ones I've seen are loaded with extras. The only "extra" I would need is rear AC. I've always just taken whatever was on the lot, but would like to save some $$ by not buying extras I am not interested in. On the other hand, will I be *charged* for asking a car to be delivered from another dealership?
If the only option you want is rear ac, then I doubt very much you'll be able to find one. You can have the dealer you are working with try to "locate" one for you. They might find one with minimal options that meets your requirements. To special order one means you'll be waiting a while, I'd say 3 months at the least, that's the case with Toyotas. : ) Mackabee
........ Like Zue said, it's a wholesale book used mostly in Conn., Mass, Maine, etc .. it's only for the extreme NE area ..
Most of the time the Galves is a lot lower than the Black Book and can be used as a dealer reference, it's not very accurate .. I always get a kick when I hit the auctions, and I see these guys paging through and saying "thats way too much" .. so I just look at em' at say, "hey if your going to buy a vehicle here today, you need to throw that book away" .. stick that book out of that little region, and it looks like a deer with the head lights on it .. it gets the "dead mullet look" l.o.l.
It was actually kind of funny because the poor salesman was showing me a retail ad for a 99 Contour for close to 5K but it was a 4cyl without ABS, and then the SM came back with a value of 2500 on mine.
Any advice gents? I really don't want to have to go through the hassle of selling it myself, so I guess that leaves me with
1) Retail Road 2) Accept the offer 3) Drive it until I have to pay the dealer to take it. lol (which should be Fall 2003, at this rate!)
- Lou FORD (Friggin Outrageous Rocklike Depreciation) owner
I have an odd question. I'm not the most mechanically inclined person in the world, but I thought that most cars these days have jack points on them. Specific places on the car where the jack should be placed. I would also asume, then, that if a car has jack points that it would be bad to leave a car laying on tires for a few weeks, which is what my dealer did with my GTI.
The last deal I negotiated went like this in June 2001:
1995 Chevy Astro minivan with a customization package including TV/VCR.
This is hard to get a NADA of KBB value on but I got an trade-in estimate of about $3650 on one with all the options except leather and chrome wheels. It had 113K miles on it. I was upside down and owed $11K on it.
I was negotiating at a Lexus dealership for a RX300. The offer they made me for one of their RXs on the lot with their standard options package was as follows:
Trade-in - $4200 (the difference between KBB and this was probably accounted for by the customization I guessed although I would not have thought the customization was worth $550 after 6 years and 113K miles)
They would pay off my loan and give me a new loan of $42K
Therefore 42 - 11 + 4.2 = $35.2K for the price of the vehicle.
Do you consider that a good deal?
I actually turned it down because I wanted to pay down my loan more and did so in 6 months. I sold it in January 2002 for $8K over the internet and then turned around and bought my QX4.
"Most of the time the Galves is a lot lower than the Black Book and can be used as a dealer reference, it's not very accurate"
Geesh, how much lower could they go? LOL I am in the SE and in 96 the dealers here were using black book and it was way lower than what I thought the car was worth. I ended up trading with a dealer on a new car and got $1000 more on my trade than the first dealer. And no they did not make up for it on the new car. I got invoice and a $600 rebate on the new one.
I rated the Astro as good in KBB but some looking at it may argue that it should have been only fair. My wife had put about a foot long scrape on the right rear fender and another scratch on the left rear fender along with a silver dollar size ding in one of the doors. It had been in a $6k front end wreck in May of 2000 where they replaced almost everything but the engine. A fair rating would have knocked it down to $2700 on the KBB trade-in value.
..... A lot of times it depends on the dealer .. if you have a convertible and you try to trade to a dealer that has 10 in stock and there is lotsa snow and cold weather .. there is a good chance you are not going to see big money for it. See, what most folks forget is, it's not just what the new vehicle is worth, it's what there trade is Really worth.
If you try to trade a Van at a store that has 6 sitting on the front line, there is a good chance you won't see tall money on a trade .. also it's not the figures in the book, it's also how it's read and who reads it, right now 740iL's are doing strong money cuz' the new "745" is cold and the market won't buy it .. but, if you go by the black book, they look weak, but try to buy a ultra nice low miler for just average, it won't happen. .l.o.l..
So let me get this straight... you raked some shmuck for $8K for a car with ghosts in it's closet that you knew about and that you figured to be worth no more than $2.7K. Sweet! That would be a record snow job in my book. In fact, I think you should start a new Edmund's topic listing this deal and titled "Biggest Con Jobs". You must be very proud.
But hey, more power to you. There's one born every day, after all. And why let all those unscrupulous dealers have all the fun... right?
The guy that bought it is one that these dealers have talked about that did not do any homework on the deal and bought it without even driving it or looking under the hood. I drove it for him while he rode with me. I had also put another major scrape on the front right fender by the time he looked at it and he made me the offer of $8K. He paid for it with a Discover credit card check. I don't know if he ever got a bank to finance that kind of money for that van.
...... Don't waste your finger tips .. this coming from a guy (Orange) who has dropped 50+ posts on how dealers are "stone cold killers" ..
I would have loved to be the fly on the wall, in that Van exchange - hey, don't you know all folks pay extra clean book for Astro's with stiff miles, whacked and a "un-named" conversion -- gheeeeez, there's only a Kazillion of these running around ..l.o.l...
Comments
gms and discontinued to boot.
cars that have an expected life-span around 50- 100,000 miles are going to depreciate drastically because this in no more than 2-6 years worth of use.
know someone who bought a new Suburban and after two years, the cooling system started acting up, and it blew various parts of its engine...
while the owner was following the manual to the letter and not driving it showing hot.
just for investigatory repair, the initial estimate 3k.
this car has gone from a 35k asset when it was on the dealer's lot to a major liability that will probably need major and expensive life-support for the rest of its natural born life
so what's it worth now?
not much for anyone knowing its history
that's why i stick mostly to hondas.
after getting wacked from behind hard enough to convert the back seat into a trunk (walked away without much of a scratch), i received about 90% original value - after a couple years of fairly hard driving.
You were not involved in this discussion but jumped in and attacked me. Why was this needed?
Terry.
Just trying to get the REAL facts here to keep from misleading people. $39K is a long way from $60.
If I am trying to rely on someone for information, I need a way to verify they are believable. If we can't agree on information that I CAN verify, how am I supposed to be able to trust you on information that I can't verify?
A dealer in a populated area should keep a base car in stock to advertise as a teaser.
Go figure - of course an engineer, with no appraisal experience, knows more about vehicle value than a guy who has bought and sold literally thousands of vehicles! What was I thinking??
Ed
absteller: your post has no relevance since people from all over the car industry including buyers are welcome here. How do expect buyers to come in here and ask questions if you trash them when they do?
If the topic is specifically asking for the advice of a "car dealer" which you're not, and you refuse to listen to the information provided, then I, and others, will continue to view you as unteachable and nothing more than a heckler to be further ignored.
Next,
Ed
If that level of experience isn't good enough, I GUARANTEE you won't find anything better, experience-wise. Take it or leave it.
I thought you were intelligent, but it scares me that you can't get your brain around the concept that those books are merely guides and many, many factors determine a vehicle's true value.
Here's an attachment I use in my case reports:
Attachment 2 to Expert Report of James Lewis
APPRAISAL GUIDELINES
From the Kelley “Blue” Book:
"Good" condition means that the vehicle is free of any major defects or a history of mechanical problems. The paint, body and interior have only minor (if any) blemishes, and there are no current mechanical problems. Trade-In Value (average)
"Fair" condition means that the vehicle probably has had some mechanical or cosmetic defects, but is still in safe running condition. Trade-In Value (below average)
"Poor" condition means that the vehicle has severe mechanical and/or cosmetic defects and may be in questionable running condition. “Dealers are not usually interested in a vehicle with current mechanical problems since repair costs are unknown”. Trade-In Value (none)
According to the National Auto Dealers Association (NADA) guidelines, Average Trade-In Price represents a clean vehicle in good condition and is assumed to have a “clean” title history. Additionally, the guide shows that (a) “vehicle should be clean and without glaring defects. Tires and glass should be in good condition. The paint should match and have a good finish”.
In my opinion, and in the opinion of most appraisers, “glaring defects” refers to major body damage and mechanical conditions that effect the value, whether the condition is current or recorded in a substantial service/warranty history. If the vehicle were determined to have any “glaring defects”, it would be passed over as a retail vehicle, especially when most vehicles are very plentiful in the market.
From the Galves Auto Price List (a major auction value guide) – “the listings in this price guide are for clean, original, specific-mileage vehicles. Experience has shown that most dealers recognize the definition of a ‘clean’ automobile” ”Desirability, color combinations, condition and warranty status are all important factors in pricing.”
From the Galves Website:
Once the dealer has taken your vehicle in trade, he usually has three main options. The dealer can:
1) Sell the vehicle to a wholesale buyer who regularly visits the dealership. The wholesale buyer makes a living by reselling to another dealer or selling the vehicle from his own used car lot. Keep in mind that a wholesale buyer will pay only a 'wholesale" price as he seeks to make a profit from the transaction.
2) Take the vehicle to a wholesale auction. This requires additional time and money. The dealer must clean and transport the vehicle and pay auction fees. The results can be very unpredictable. On a good day, only about 50% of the dealers vehicles will get sold at a wholesale auction. The remainder must either wait for another auction or be returned to the dealer.
3) Enter the vehicle into his retail inventory and sell it. In this case the dealer would typically incur expenses for the following:
· Cosmetic and mechanical reconditioning
· Financing Inventory
· Advertising Inventory
· Employees salaries and commissions
· Warrantees
Dealers choose either option #1 or #2 when the trade-in is not of retail quality, the mileage is too high, the model of the vehicle does not appeal to them or they do not want the financial obligation of holding the vehicle in their inventory.
Option #3 occurs only when the dealer sees a legitimate potential for him to retail the vehicle. If he chooses to retail the vehicle, he needs to own it at a point where he can incur the expenses listed above and still make a profit. Regardless of which option the dealer chooses, he must own the car for a realistic "wholesale" price so he can re-sell it and not lose money.
Big-O - you have wandered into the midst of an unusual group of car dealer representatives here. They're actually a pretty good bunch of guys, most of whom don't work like many salespeople out there in the B&M world. These guys collectively want to see the reputation of their profession cleaned up and more respect earned from the public. I know that's hard to believe, but I assure you it's true. Please give them a chance to respond in a neutral dialog that doesn't start with an attitude based on preconceptions.
Salesfolks: I suspect Big-O came in here expecting the same kind of environment he has observed in some dealerships, and the exchange has deteriorated from there - he was expecting a runaround, and responded accordingly. You read insults in his words, and things spiralled downward from there. Let's start over and see where it goes.
My $.02
Al
I can forgive and forget.
:-D
Ed
As long as those two are pre-requisites, I'm in - otherwise, I'd rather have a railroad spike stuck in my eye than argue with BO any more over car stuff.
Zues is already misquoting me again. They just want to bully us buyers around it seems like to me.
"just because something's in print, it doesn't make is Gospel and just because guys love cars, it doesn't make them liars."
How do you EVER talk to anyone without getting mad?
I agree with the fact that just because something's in print doesn't mean its true. However, you must remember, that just because you say it and SAY your an expert on the subject, doesn't mean that its true to me. To trust you, I have to experience what you say is true. So far, SOME of what you have said just doesn't square up with my experience. Just give me some time to get to know you and experience what you say and not take pot shots at me for something I say. Even if what I say is not true, you don't have to insult a person to respond. All you have to say is "Well, that's just different than my experience" and leave it at that. People out there that already trust you will trust your experience more. My opinion is just an opinion. My experience is also not something you can just say doesn't happen because I know different.
Now, the last trade-in I did was before 9/11 and I know the car business has changed some since then. If dealers are not offering as much now and making the books inaccurate, then that's where I made the mistake but I did get NADA wholesale price on all of my 5 trade-ins before that.
However, the misquote you made was about how you think I said that all guys who love cars are liars. That's not even close to anything I have said.
It sounds like you are a "Doubting Thomas" by nature. There's a difference between an educated consumer and a cynic.
OT..
Question for you- I am a Meteorologist. If you never saw a tornado, would you believe me if I told you how one develops?
It also seems that the last such transaction you participated in was sometime in the last 2 to 3 years. I wonder if you might indulge the readers of this thread in the following way:
Dig out the paperwork for your last transaction and report all the numbers here. You would need to include the vehicle you traded, its mileage at trade, color, equipment, condition. Next, information about the vehicle you purchased, including MSRP and what the dealer showed you paying for it. Also include any rebates, downpayments, etc.
I think if the dealers here get a chance to evaluate a real deal that you were a part of, they will have two choices:
1. Agree that you got a very good deal, and that you are justified in your belief that you are able to get very good results in your business negotiations. As a result, they'll have to admit that you "beat" the model they're working from, and they'll have to agree that your perceptions are justified.
2. They'll get an opportunity to explain from real numbers why you didn't get as good a deal as you thought, perhaps as a result of an overallowance on your trade. If this is the case, I hope you'll openly listen to what they're trying to explain.
Either way, we'll should at least be able to discuss a more concrete example of real world pricing.
What do you all think?
I received two offers to trade my car for a new one from different dealers. The bottom line of both was identical (well, actually $4 difference). One of the offers gave $500 more for my trade than the other and $500 less discount on the new car. The second dealer knew what the target to match was and asked me how it was broken down which I told him, then reached the same bottom line but in a different way. What I'd like to know is why would he do that? What advantage is it to value my trade $500 higher than the first dealer? I'm happy with the deal, just curious.
Ed
So when the contract is presented to the lender, it looks more favorable and the money costs less to borrow.
Without knowing any real numbers including payoffs, it would be hard to speculate why.
It may just be a psycological issue, offering more for your trade may just make you feel better, LOL.
TB
from the dealers stand point...I can shuffle the top numbers (selling price & trade-in allowance) any number of ways to appease the customers way of buying....as you found out. the key is to keeping your focus on the bottom line number.
Often, many buyers don't worry about the bottom line.. they get very focused on the trade in allowance...or the discount amount on the new car and ignore the bottom line.....with this type of buyer I can create the illusion the buyer is looking for and make the deal happen.....you figured out the smart way....Watch the bottom line...
Audia8q: That lesson plus others were learnt by reading this topic and others. As you say, a very useful lesson.
In NJ, a car advertised must have the VIN, so I went to the dealer's web site and the car was still listed. It was even one of the colors I like. So yesterday, I drove out to the dealer and snooped around, and did not find the car.
So, this morning, I called the dealership, spoke with a salesman I had contacted before, and asked about the car in the ad. Yes, it was still available. Ok, I said I would be there in a bit.
Removed the snow off the car, and had it washed, and drove out there.
I get to the dealership, and apologize as traffic was a bit heavy, even though by this time rush hour should have been well over. We establish that I do have a trade-in, and that the new car is available. The SM gets my car keys and proceeds to drive the car.
I'm offered $500 less than what I expected, and I wasn't expecting much. When I ask where the new car is so I can look at it, I'm told it is at their "storage lot".
At this point, I politely thanked the salesman and left.
I would have expected to at the very least be able to sit in the car, if not test drive it.
If they had told me the car wasn't at the new car lot, I wouldn't have wasted my time in going up there. But I was stupid, I should have specifically asked where the car was and if I could have test driven it.
But here's my question. What's Galves? They were waving the Galves book around and I have no idea what that is, where they get their numbers from, or how those numbers correlate to KBB or NADA (which I know are just guides anyway).
- Lou
NADA, Kelly, etc are used by lenders and dealers.
I use Galves as it shows auction trends and more realistic numbers than Kelly or NADA.
bigorange - I've justified my status in life to all teh people I've needed to at this point - believe what you want - I certainly don't get paid to be here or get paid by advice given. My words are free, take them or leave them.
One thing, though - I could never keep up with you in a discussion concerning the depths of your engineering work. I wouldn't try, because I don't have the education or experience to talk "on-level" with you. I have a great deal of automotive experience and that has turned into a wonderful career for me. You can either work with me or work against me - I'll still pop in here, answer a few questions, make a few comments and leave.
Galves is used primarily in the Northeast part of the country and is the primary wholesale value book in the region....NADA would be second.
Mackabee
: )
Mackabee
Most of the time the Galves is a lot lower than the Black Book and can be used as a dealer reference, it's not very accurate .. I always get a kick when I hit the auctions, and I see these guys paging through and saying "thats way too much" .. so I just look at em' at say, "hey if your going to buy a vehicle here today, you need to throw that book away" .. stick that book out of that little region, and it looks like a deer with the head lights on it .. it gets the "dead mullet look" l.o.l.
Terry.
It was actually kind of funny because the poor salesman was showing me a retail ad for a 99 Contour for close to 5K but it was a 4cyl without ABS, and then the SM came back with a value of 2500 on mine.
Any advice gents? I really don't want to have to go through the hassle of selling it myself, so I guess that leaves me with
1) Retail Road
2) Accept the offer
3) Drive it until I have to pay the dealer to take it. lol (which should be Fall 2003, at this rate!)
- Lou FORD (Friggin Outrageous Rocklike Depreciation) owner
1995 Chevy Astro minivan with a customization package including TV/VCR.
This is hard to get a NADA of KBB value on but I got an trade-in estimate of about $3650 on one with all the options except leather and chrome wheels. It had 113K miles on it. I was upside down and owed $11K on it.
I was negotiating at a Lexus dealership for a RX300. The offer they made me for one of their RXs on the lot with their standard options package was as follows:
Trade-in - $4200 (the difference between KBB and this was probably accounted for by the customization I guessed although I would not have thought the customization was worth $550 after 6 years and 113K miles)
They would pay off my loan and give me a new loan of $42K
Therefore 42 - 11 + 4.2 = $35.2K for the price of the vehicle.
Do you consider that a good deal?
I actually turned it down because I wanted to pay down my loan more and did so in 6 months. I sold it in January 2002 for $8K over the internet and then turned around and bought my QX4.
Geesh, how much lower could they go? LOL I am in the SE and in 96 the dealers here were using black book and it was way lower than what I thought the car was worth. I ended up trading with a dealer on a new car and got $1000 more on my trade than the first dealer. And no they did not make up for it on the new car. I got invoice and a $600 rebate on the new one.
If you try to trade a Van at a store that has 6 sitting on the front line, there is a good chance you won't see tall money on a trade .. also it's not the figures in the book, it's also how it's read and who reads it, right now 740iL's are doing strong money cuz' the new "745" is cold and the market won't buy it .. but, if you go by the black book, they look weak, but try to buy a ultra nice low miler for just average, it won't happen. .l.o.l..
I hope this helps ....
Terry.
But hey, more power to you. There's one born every day, after all. And why let all those unscrupulous dealers have all the fun... right?
The guy that bought it is one that these dealers have talked about that did not do any homework on the deal and bought it without even driving it or looking under the hood. I drove it for him while he rode with me. I had also put another major scrape on the front right fender by the time he looked at it and he made me the offer of $8K. He paid for it with a Discover credit card check. I don't know if he ever got a bank to finance that kind of money for that van.
I agree with you on the 745, I love the 7 series, but the new ones look blah
So you are telling me I can get a new 745 for invoice because they are not selling well? LOL
I would have loved to be the fly on the wall, in that Van exchange - hey, don't you know all folks pay extra clean book for Astro's with stiff miles, whacked and a "un-named" conversion -- gheeeeez, there's only a Kazillion of these running around ..l.o.l...
Terry.
You didn't hear it from me, but I know a Bimmer dealer that just dropped kicked one off the lot for $1,700 over cost .. scary.
Terry.