Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

thel

or is it getting hot in here. Lets all go back to our respective corners, cool off, and start all over.

There that's better. Now, in all seriousness, what was the original point you were trying to make, mfullmer? (no sarcasm here, I just need the facts)

mfullmer

The original point of this string was my frustration with the various and often erroneous information given in these types of websites regarding "Vehicle Invoice". I had recently went in to work a deal where we had agreed upon $300.00 over factory invoice. I used numerous sites and came up with numerous different amounts. Further, on not one of these sites did they list or make it clear the Manufacturer to Dealer advertising amount that is clearly listed on the invoice. My question was, if they can tell me the options available, prices, incentives, etc based on my zip code, then why can't they tell me the advertising?

A simple question, you may think. Unfortunately I was hit with a barrage of posts about how I didn't want the dealer to make any money, was only concerned with him not making a profit, etc. In contrast, I stated that I didn't care how much profit the dealer makes off of the deal. If we are both happy with coming up with a $xxx amound over factory invoice then that's great. If that's all he makes and he's happy with it, fine. If, on the other hand, he has a couple months of holdback left, dealer cash, etc. thats great too!

I guess the point I'm making now is I'm amazed at how posters read their own prejudices into things and then post responses that construe the original posters message. Of course thats considered "cool" while the person who, justifiably, gets irritated at such behavior is considered a "hothead".

Oh well, we are all different. We are all from different backgrounds and we all have different tolerances. On the other hand, we are all here taking advantage of this medium.

Hooorrrayyy!

mirth

That's why you get into trouble when you make any deal that's "invoice + $XXX", since that invoice number can vary from what these different sites say it is. Sometimes it's because of the legit ad fees. Sometimes it's because the dealer threw their own doc fee in there. That's why it's always easier to use the out-the-door price. Don't worry about the "real" invoice, just start negotiating using the lowest invoice number you find from all the sites. Instead of saying "invoice + $200", say "$20,200" (or whatever). That way you're talking real numbers rather than arguing with the salesperson over what invoice really is.

mfullmer

I looked at the invoice and, because I'm very familiar with them, was able to see that it was the exact one from the factory. There was no arguing over which was the real invoice. Did you read my last message about the point of the whole conversation? It was about these sites and their numbers not my process which has worked very well.

I buy 2 new cars every 2 years. I KNOW what works for me and that has always been Invoice + a certain amount (based upon availability, popularity, etc).

I could see how a salesman would want someone to come in with an arbitrary number like that. It would be very easy to get one confused by throwing many more numbers out trying to make it look like their number was way off. Why give the salesman the upper hand?

When you are working with a number that is a certain amount above a PRINTED factory invoice price there is no room for confusion. Although I've nearly always had an issue with any salesman I approached with this method (They always want to work around a monthly payment amount, down payment amount, etc.) but I then go straight to the fleet manager and my deals have always been clean and hassle free. I always make sure I'm offering what is about middle of the road from all of my sources (in the Invoice +). I've always gotten a good deal and the dealers, while not totally exstatic about the deal, make a bit of money also.

mfullmer

Where is it that you read that I got into trouble with my deal????????

bigorange30

Do you show the invoice you are using to the dealer when you make the offer of invoice + $XXX? If so, isn't he just going to add and get the $20,200 type offer that mirth is talking about? If you don't show him the invoice you are using, why not?

bobst

Come to think of it, I seem to recall there being another poster who often says the same thing as you. Who is that masked man?

mfullmer

I did take the printouts from KBB and Chrome Data in with me. I quickly looked them over with the Manufacturers Invoice and I could see that there were a couple of discrepancies in option prices (some more some less) and then there was the Manufacturer to Dealer Advertising fee that was clearly an item on the invoice but not included on any online source.

Let me make it clear. I in no way think that the information I get from these sites is the "Actual Invoice price". I use them for research only. I wouldn't go in there thinking that I have a copy of the invoice in my hand, especially with the many different numbers I get from each site. It would be foolish of me to take one over the other and decide that it must be the right one (like some have suggested).

Interestingly enough, on many of the other discussions where people are talking about price (between dealers themselves) many of the posts suggest taking the Invoice plus mark-up because you could be looking at the exact same vehicle configuration yet have different invoice prices.

I think the important thing here is the resistance by dealers to take the straightforward invoice + approach. It's like they don't like to deal with those absolutes. They love people coming in there saying "I'll offer you this amount for this car." Then they bring out all sorts of things to let them know that they are not being realistic. In the end, all they are doing is muddying the waters so that the buyer doesn't really know which numbers to believe.

I like my straightforward approach. There is a definite number on the bottom of that Manufacturer Invoice. The amount of mark-up is straightforward. Now I get it!!!! Thats why I got so much flack over my process. It's scarry territory for some salesmen.

thel

But let's say I was going to buy a Honda CR-V. Invoice is lets say $21,000 (round # to make it easy). This includes destination and any regional add fees and options. I go into the dealer and I have two options:

1. I could say to the dealer I will pay $21,500 +TTL. He can say yes and I buy a new car or he can say something else and I leave.

2. Or I could walk in and say I will give you $500 over invoice for that CR-V EX over there. Then the salesman has to go and find the invoice, add up a bunch of stuff like options, destination, add fees, etc. His numbers aren't what mine are and we go back and forth for hours on end before I run amok with a rusty butter knife.

Seems to me that the first scenario (the one used by Mirth and Bobst) seems to be the easiest one.

Mirth and Bobst, I don't mean to put words into your mouths but I believe this is pretty much the method you are using correct?

mackabee

I understood your post, and I would welcome you as a customer. Otoh, there are a few that would question every item on the factory invoice when it does not reflect what they have downloaded from the internet and that's where a lot of confusion begins. When both buyer and seller are on the same page things go rather quick and smooth.
                       : )
                         Mackabee

mney6

I agree with Mack.
If all customers worked it they way you do there would be alot less hassles.
The door will always be open to you here also.

mfullmer

I do want to make a few points:

Research is key. It's a waste of everyone's time to go into (lets say Honda) a Honda dealership and say I'll offer you $500 over invoice. You should rightly be laughed out of there! On the other hand, by looking at sites like these and then pricing out the invoice here, you can go in, make a firm offer of (hypothetical) $1,500 over invoice and when the invoice comes out, you'll not be too surprised.

To Thel I would say - If any salesman won't show you the invoice then run away. There is absolutely no reason not to if you are both looking at giving/getting a fair deal.

One of the biggest problems I have with the "I'll give you $xxx or go elsewhere" tactic is, and I'm speaking of experience in my parents dealerships, many, many people pay far more than they could have by doing that. Ever since Consumer Guide started printing their publications back in the 80's people have fixed themselves on the prices there and then offered to buy cars with those prices. If they are firm, then they go away when a deal could have worked. If they are frazzled by the difference in numbers, then they get confused and many times pay something nowhere near what they planned.

Ok, enough already about that.

So when are these sights going to be able to give accurate invoice pricing?

bobst

If you are looking for "accurate invoice pricing", then you will probably always be disappointed. The dealers know much more about cars than we ever will. For every secret they share, they think of two more things to hide from us.

Well, that's life. Deal with it.

Yeah, Thel, that is pretty much how we buy a car, except we offer an out-the-door price in writing that includes everything. That way there is almost no room for confusion, and we get a Yes or No pretty quick.

raybear

Are pretty accurate from online resources. The problems occur mostly with options and additional advertising on other makes.

The website I worked for tried to include the ad fees, and we were constantly told our prices were wrong.

isellhondas

There are no advertising charges or non dealer installed options.

I just wish they wouldn't seperate freight.

Some people just can't understand that it costs us 460.00 to have the car delivered to us.

ateixeira

I have to disagree with you there - dealer installed options are the toughest thing to price from a customer point of view.

For instance, the new Element DX does not have A/C. Dealers in my area are charging a whopping $1800 or so for the option. That's a rip off - it's usually only $800 or so.

Also, say you compare a dealer installed option with the same accessory from Handaparts.com. Prices are more or less in line with what other manufacturers charge (at invoice), but Honda dealer won't agree to it because they need to pay labor for the install.

So while I think it's good that Honda equips cars comprehensively (the Accord LX finally gets ABS), you're up a creek when a feature is missing that you want.

-juice

isellhondas

If you don't like the price one dealer charges for, say A/C, you can shop other dealers I guess.

We charge 1295.00 installed for A/C. This price hasn't changed since I started in 1995.

And, of course, the shop will charge for labor. Nobody likes to work for free. The labor charges can vary quite a bit based on where you live.

ateixeira

True, but the supply/demand curve in my area favors the dealers, so $1800 is the norm. $1300 still seems relatively high but at least that's tolerable.

But from a customer's point of view, paying Toyota $788 for A/C on a RAV4 is less painful, even MSRP is just $985.

Any how, I don't blame dealers for that, it's the way Honda packages equipment. Or doesn't, actually. We dropped the Accord from our short list last year because you could not get an LX 5-speed with ABS. Ironically they just addressed that.

-juice

isellhondas

In my neck of the woods (Seattle)we get LOTS of rain and some snow. ABS isn't a big deal to a lot of people.

Honda used to offer ABS as an option on the automatics but these were very poor sellers.

So it wouldn't have made much sense to offer ABS with a 5 speed.

Five speeds are very slow sellers new and almost impossible to sell as used cars. Still, some people do like them.

Of course, we have a lot of hills here and horrible traffic. That's one of the reasons they don't sell well.

But, now, all Accords have ABS so none of this matters anyway!

ateixeira

You'd think the opposite was true - with the rain you'd want ABS, but I'll take your word for it. We would not even consider a new car without it.

I'm glad that Honda offers a 5 speed at all - lots of manufacturers don't any more. That alone narrowed our search significantly.

I like the way they equip the Pilot and Ody better, even the LXs are reasonably well equipped. Now Accords are, too.

-juice

andre1969

...how much a/c added to the price of a car nowadays. It's hard to break it out, since it's standard in so many cars today. I think the last time I paid much attention to it, was back in 1985, when it was around $650 for a standard a/c, and about $775 or so for the type with the electronic climate control (isn't that just a fancy word for a thermostat?)

ateixeira

On my last car, a Ford, the A/C option cost me just under $500. But when it compressor broke, I had to pay $700 to get a new one installed, and that's not even the complete system.

So I guess it cost me $1200, LOL.

-juice

isellhondas

Had factory air. Lucky for me, the original window sticker was in the glove box. I remember the base price of the car was around 3200.00 before options if I recall correctly.

The AC added something like 450.00 to the price of the car. That's like 13% of the base price?

Using that as an example, the window sticker of a 4WD automatic Element is 18,760.

Sounds like the 1295.00 we charge is a bargain compared to the "old days"!

andre1969

Back around 1956, GM's air conditioning added something like $565 to the price of a car. I guess the competition was similarly-priced. Well, back then the base price of a Ford, Chevy, or Plymouth was around $2000, give or take, which comes out to around 28% of the base price!

So how's $5250 sound for A/C nowadays?!

dsattler

Last car I bought ichecked the online sources for invoice prices (some variation) and shelled out a few bucks for the same information from Consumer Reports. The numbers from Consumer Reports were the only ones that matched the numbers the dealer showed me. I don't know if they have different sources for their numbers, and I don't know if this would be universally true (salesperson didn't know, either), but in this case CR had the accurate numbers. Bottom line numbers varied by about $300 among all the sources.

ateixeira

I guess A/C was a luxury back then, now everyone wants it. I'm a bit surprised the Element doesn't have it standard, in fact the whole idea of having a DX instead of an LX is something I don't understand.

I mean, c'mon, most vans and SUVs have dual A/C nowadays! :-)

-juice

andre1969

...is that they're offering it without a/c so they can keep the base price low, so more younger people could get into one...or at least be enticed into the showroom and up-sold into a more expensive model.

Doesn't Nissan also do that with the Altima? IIRC, the base Altima doesn't have a/c. Now that MUST be rare, on a midsized car!

ateixeira

Yeah, I didn't have A/C in my first car. Then again, I got it for $800 used.

My first new car had it, though.

Nissan and Toyota tend to offer 4 wheels and a chassis, then everything else is optional. But this a-la-carte method does allow you to get ABS and A/C on a base model. Honda is sort of take-it-or-leave-it, unless it can be dealer installed.

We passed on these and got a Subaru because even their very basic, stripped Legacy L had AWD, ABS, cruise, power everything, and even 4 disc brakes. They stopped selling the Brighton model back in MY2000.

-juice

sonjaab

Maybe the installed in port A/C on some imports
could be because USA and some other countries
banned R-12 systems. We have to have the R-134
systems instead. Or I could be just another
dealer profit center that some mfrs. use ?
opinions?............

robr2

...AC is so prevelant now that I think the only reason there would be dealer installed AC is to keep the price low on the price leader units that manufacturers offers - ie Honda DX units.

There is a market for those stripper units and some people are willing to do without A/C.

Since Honda's target market on the Element is an unemployed 22 YO, I guess the need for a DX model is real.

I do believe that R-134 is a worldwide standard now.

As an aside - I've seen about a half dozen Elements on the road already.

ateixeira

LOL, I read that too!

-juice

rroyce10

..... Wow, try to trade that unit in June in Philly or anytime in the southern states .. take $2,0/$2,500 off the trade value and you will hafta like it ...

            Terry.

sonjaab

Is available and being produced in Mexico
and elsewhere.
Smuggling to US and other countries is getting
to be a problem and quite the cash cow !
Heck a 30 lb can if ya can find one is 700 bucks or more!
I bought 6 a few years back for 99 each. Since
I have a bunch of compressors at my businesses
that use it. I gotta have it. Now when a
compressor blows up I change them to R-134 system
.................geo

BTW: R-134 is quite pricey ....almost 300 for 30 lbs!

landru2

that's been destroying the ozone layer! :^)

balltee3

I got a price quote over the phone from a dealer for invoice price on a 2003 Chevy Suburban. However, with past purchases I understand that "hidden" additional charges are always tacked on at the end: advertising, docking fee, etc.
What are fees that I should expect to see and approximate values that I should expect to pay?

Thank you, in advance, for your help.

zueslewis

I lived on SW Blanton St in Aloha from '94-97, then moved to Medford. The Super Shops store on Canyon Drive was one of my stores.

For what it's worth, I got a wild hair and bought an '03 PT Cruiser GT Turbo tonight - must be fast, because it has 3 names. Silver, autostick, etc - cool ride - went conservative instead of the luxury sedan route - I really like the PTs with 17" wheels and over 200 hp!

rroyce10

.... I had to laugh, nothing personal and don't get mad .. from what you have said, you are tall and bulky .. I can just see you in that PT Cruiser, you must look like the "Mad Hatter" at a St Patricks day parade ..l.o.l..

             Terry :-)

zueslewis

I'm only 5'7"!! I weigh about 250, but I'm not rounder than taller. (Think of the short weightlifting guy with no neck).

I fit the PT fine.

raybear

Terry, ad fees should be included in the price. Doc fees vary, some States have fixed fees, some don't. Just ask.

bobst

Call the dealer back and ask for an Out-the-Door price that includes all fees, taxes, and whatever else they may charge. Until you have that, don't even waste your time going to the dealer.

ateixeira

That cracked me up, the Suburban with a "docking fee". I always thought it was a big as a boat!

jim: congrats. Check out the current Autoweek, they just tested it and really liked the GT.

-juice

zueslewis

that puppy will be lowered and on the autocross course next month - I have to figure out what class I'm in.

ateixeira

Cool, let us know how you do. Lots of turbos spin the inside front wheel, so you might want to consider a Quaiffe front diffy for that bad boy. It doesn't come with one standard, does it?

-juice

mark156

Zues, I think Chrysler has really hit on something with the PT Cruiser. It's one sharp looking car! I think I would lean towards the wood panelling or maybe some flames on the fenders and hood.

Happy Motoring! Mark

zueslewis

I'm going to replace the wheels (silver 17" 5-spokes) with Volk TE-37 wheels in anthracite - should look good against a silver car with big brakes (next project) and tinted windows.

I wonder, too about traction, but the car comes stock with ABS and traction control, and there is a traction control "off" switch. I'll try it both ways and see which gives better course times.

vikd

My MIL lives on 167th and Blanton! I drive by the old Super Shops location every day on the way to work...it's a rent to own type store now.

A PT??!! Wow, that was quite the inpulse buy wasnt it? Great reference Terry! LOL!! At least you went with the GT...is it pretty quick with the added ponies? Been interested in how that one rides, wasnt too excited with the non-GT one I drove about a year ago. A PT on the Autocross course...classic! Enjoy your new ride...

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis

A PT Turbo, with suspension mods, on the autocross course - interesting, indeed.

vikd

Off topic but...We live on the South end of 185th up on Cooper Mountain! I cant even count how many times Ive driven by your old house or have stood in line at the post office right across the street. Why did you move? The Portland metro area is a great place to live.
Back on topic...sort of... Would any of you dealers know if there is a web site for home buying thats sort of the equivelent to Edmunds car buying? Since you car dealers seem to hold realtors in such, ahem, high esteem, I could use some brushing up as the wife is wanting to look at a home in a new development down the street. Thanks for any advice y'all can provide...

Regards... Vikd

mark156

I know a girl, lady actually, who bought a PT cruiser and had the under carriage lit so that it glows at night. Also, she had the rear tail lights changed so that at night they will glow purple. And, there is a small neon rope that raps around the antennae that lights up. She had interior glow lights put in the foot wells. I've not seen the car lit up at night but in my area, there is a PT Cruiser club that meets regularly at different places around town. During that day, her PT looks normal, it's beige.

If I ever had a "Cruiser", I would want it to be a fun one. They are so inexpensive, you can do all kind of things to it with out killing your wallet!

Mark

zueslewis

I'll do the rear roll pan thing (removing the rear bumper), a billet grille and get with somebody who knows how to turn up the wick on the boost.

vikd - we moved to Medford (my wife's home and where my MIL and FIL are) after Super Shops went under. I went to work for the Lithia Auto Group. I can't help on the realtor question - I dislike **most** realtors more than skanky car salesmen.