Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

vikd

...but why the acrimony towards realtors by car biz folks? I've seen many allusions as to the corruptness of the profession and have even seen realtors on "lists" of percieved corrupt occupations. Buying a home is certainly not as easy as buying a car, but our first home buying experience (our last but are now looking to purchase again) seem to go pretty good. Of course, at the time, we had nothing to compare it to but I don't recall many (there was once) moments where causing bodily harm to my realtor ever came up as an option.
Anyway...just curious as I've seen it mentioned more times than once.
Zeus...Medford's not too bad either, a bit red around the collar but generally a very nice climate. Doesnt Lithia pretty much own Medford?

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis

and now Colorado.

I like red around the collar, because I'm from South Texas - I've found, in my lenghty travels, that where there is red around the collar, there is much more common sense. The more white around the collar, the less common sense. I like dealing with people with common sense. I've known people with PhDs that I didn't believe could tie their shoes or find the oil dipstick in their car!

The realtor thing - I know there are great realtors out there, just like there are great car biz folks out there - unfortunately, however, the bad ones have ruined it for everyone.

Do all cops eat donuts and have ticket quotas? Of course not.

Do all red around the collar guys have pickup trucks with gunracks? No, I have a PT Cruiser and a master's degree.

Do bankers only work from 9 to 3? Of course not - that's just the bak's hours, not theirs.

andre1969

...had somehow gotten a bad rap because they tend to be annoying as car buying customers, not because of anything dishonest or immoral/illegal that they were doing. Kind of like how teachers, government workers, and engineers tend to get brought up from time to time as annoying customers.

vikd

I apologize if I did. I see where youre going with the stereotype angle and I agree with you about some benefits of being a bit "red". I only pointed it out as a minor difference between a metro sprawl like greater Portland and a smaller town like Medford. After all, we are talking Oregon here. A small town in southern Oregon is not quite the same as a small town in, say, southern Maryland. Of course, the sereotypes exist everywhere...you should see the family that lives at the end of my block. I actually grew up 80 miles east of Portland where apple and pear orchards were the sole source of income and our town had a general store and a post office, that's it. I've retained some of the qualities associated with this type of upbringing and consider myself to have a pretty good amount of commen sense. Again Zues, no offense meant...

Lithia has gone east to COL huh? They are getting pretty much dominant...
Any other ideas on why realtors make the "top ten" list?

Regards... Vikd

timadams

Real estate sales people get a bad rap for some of the same reasons car salespeople do. Not knowing their "product", putting the sale above the needs of the customer or being dishonest.

Regarding knowledge, a good real estate salesperson will know how to sell to a much greater degree than he will know how a specific house is constructed or neighborhood factoids.
Often, a realtor will see a house for the first time along with their client, but must answer questions about it and the neighborhood.

Honesty and putting their own commission before the needs of the customers are also two biggies. Most people, partly deserved, think that a realtor will say anything to get a sale closed, even if it means the wrong house is sold to someone. It does happen, but just like with cars, some customers think they want something that really doesn't suit their needs.

vikd

Kind of info I was looking for.
...I guess needing to know everything from the quality of the school district to the frequency of the neighborhood assoc. meetings kind of puts realtors at somewhat of a disadvantage considering they often sell in many different locales. However, I do guess that knowing these things is what places the good ones apart from the bad ones. For our part, our first purchase was in the neighborhood we had already lived for many years, so those specific type question were never asked nor answered....hopefully they could have been answered if asked. It seems as though the parrallels could be drawn between many high end sales occupations but I was particularly interested in how the care biz folks thought about realtors. Your insight in to the car biz is so helpful (and often enjoyable and amusing) that I thought I would try to tap this resourse at a different angle. Off topic I know, but one can not deny the similarities presented herein.
Thanks folks...

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis

I take references to my red collar as a compliment. After all, I don't own a Camaro or wear a mullet.

vikd

...mullet wearing, Camaro driving folks pretty much everywhere I've been. That is one stereotype that does not seem to be geographically oriented... though for some reason when someone mentions an IROC, Jersey always comes to mind...hhmmm? On the other hand, before I met her, my mife used to drive a Camaro and have big hair but has barely stepped foot outside of WA, OR and CA. Thank goodness she made the leap from the '80s virtually overnight...she now has very short hair and drives a Civic (we are in Oregon after all)...wait, isnt that a stereotype also...whatever, back to Cars and the fine folks that sell them ;-/.

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis

vikd

...we also wear tie died shirts and Birkenstocks and peruse used books at the nearest Starbucks...

Regards... Vikd who actually admits to liking Starbucks coffee.

zueslewis

Jim

Never, ever drank coffee. Birkenstocks hurt my feet.

vikd

...I don't fit that stereotype nor do many of the 2.5 million people in greater Portland metro, but it exists nonetheless... I also don't work for Nike or am a long distance runner or have ever cut down (except at x-mas time) or hugged a tree.

On topic: For any Nissan dealers/sellers...buy the '03 Max now or in March (assuming there will be any left) when the '04's come out?
Thanks gents.

Regards... Vikd who, in the summer wears Teva's because Birkenstocks also hurt his feet but who still likes Starbucks coffee.

mackabee

Congrats on the new PT!! Cool Dude!
                            : )
                            Mackabee

zueslewis

I wanted fun, yet conservative. With a good trade allowance, good discount and $3K rebate, I couldn't pass it up.

I'll augment my car corral next year with something a little more radical (I'm thinking '03-'04 Cobra), but the PT will be a great runaround, roadtrip and autocross ride.

bolivar

The Home Sales people have gone, in my opinion, to a position where everything in the contracts are to 'protect the real estate company'.

Read your contracts sometimes.

I feel the listing contracts gives the listing company the authority to come by weekly and beat you with a baseball bat.

The purchase contract doesn't do anything for the buyer or seller, it just protects the company.

And, in my last experiences, the agents don't want to have to do anything themselves at all. They asked me to write a letter back to the buyer myself about something that was going to happen. I asked 'what are you getting paid to do'? This was after I had already written one letter to them about an earlier item.

And yes, while working with my in-laws on a sale and a purchase, there was one agent that should have had some bodily harm done to him (also the seller). This involved removing fixtures from the house, after a purchase contract was in place.

mfullmer

I'm not sure how one can compare Car Dealers to Real Estate Agents. They aren't even comparable.

A Car Dealer is selling his own product.

A Real Estate Agent is representing someone who is buying/selling a home.

Apples and Oranges.

Here's where I see the main difference: The car dealer has an OBLIGATION to disclose certain things about the product. Therefore, they should know the product inside and out. They are also resposible for the collecting the additional charges. There is no "neutral party" collecting/disbursing funds and preparing the paperwork.

The Real Estate Agent relies on the seller/buyer to disclose certain things about the product/financial situation. The real estate agent isn't responsible for collecting any money. Finally, the whole process goes through a "neutral party" (attorney/escrow agent) who collects/disburses the funds and prepares the closing paperwork.

Although people get frustrated and angry at both, there is really no chance of someone walking away from a real estate closing complaining that they were ripped off. Furthermore, if there happens to a figure that isn't correct on the closing documents, by law, this has to be corrected and refunded/collected.

I think the biggest problem people have with real estate agents is that they earn such a high commission. On the other hand, the Car Dealers have had such a hand in making laws that protect them people feel like that they are always getting fleeced.

ateixeira

Actually, the agent typically works for the seller, not the buyer (unless you buyer/broker). That's because the seller pays for fees.

You don't have to use an agent, though, you can shop for "fizbos" (for sale by owner) and hire your own closing attorney. I sold and bought a house that way and you'd be surprised, it's actually a whole lot simpler without a Real Estate firm getting in the way.

We hired an agent on an hourly basis just to write up the contract, that's it. The whole process saved us about $40,000 for the sale and purchase of those two homes.

-juice

draymond2

As a licensed Broker, my best advice is to make sure you work with someone that has plenty of experience and also is looking out for your best interest. Be leary of the most successful agent in town syndrome, if their that busy, will they have time for you? After you have a few experiences with an agent, it wont take you long to figure out how sincere they are.
Don't get sucked in to the big hype machine that some of these companies market. A small independent company that has been around is sometimes the best choice.

vikd

Still in the looking phase and have as yet only dealt with a single agent who was seleced by a builder to sell his new construction. On brand new homes, it seems that car/home sales have more common ground. Sure, the builder is technically the seller, but the home is new and never been lived in so there is not much need for the realtor to do much "mediation". The product is what it is, pricing is negotiable and paperwork must be completed. Still alot of comparisons there but I agree with mfullmer, on older home transactions, car salesman and realtors are not really the same. My initial question/point was not to try to compare the two occupations, rather to try to understand the acrimony car biz folks seem to feel about realtors. Perhaps the feeling spans across other occupations as well but since most people here are car folks, it is obviously one sided.

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis

"A Car Dealer is selling his own product."

Wrong - there's not a franchised car dealer in the nation that builds and warrants their own product. They are selling a product manufactured by someone else.

Apples and oranges don't apply. The same games can happen with your house, when a realtor sells it to me, that a car dealer can do with a car he's selling to me.

mauislick

all sales persons are scum! ( and I'm a sales person) now that's taken care of and no indurstry is singled out....here's a question

on the average, how much does a lot sales guy make on the sale of one car? ( I know all deals are different, etc. ) and were not counting incentives and quotas met Just the $ on a sale of a car

rivertown

Sale of one car doesn't count toward incentives and quotas? I hear the last sale meeting a quota or incentive could net the salesman more from quote/bonus/etc. than from the sale itself. Shoot, the salesman could sell that last car at a loss and end up making money.

isellhondas

How people that aren't in the business seem to know so much about it?

rivertown

Isell -

Just for the record, am I wrong?

zueslewis

that explains THE car guy payplan - like there's just ONE.

It's amazing how people with the least to say say it the loudest.

mirth

Excellent article about the internet "revolution" and dealers:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5739&sid=17- 5&n=156

mfullmer

A car dealer DOES sell his own product - i.e. He OWNS the vehicle. (Whether or not he has it floored)

A Real Estate Agent does not OWN the product.

mfullmer

ACTUALLY, in an ideal situation you have an agent who represent the seller and one that represents the buyer.

Since the Seller pays for the entire commission, as the buyer why would you NOT have your own representation. The selling agent is legally bound to take care of the sellers interest. It makes no sense to go through such a large purchase and not have your own representation.

mfullmer

Please think twice about using the builders agent. That agent, though they may help you through the negotiations process is representing the builder not you. The Builder has already contracted to pay the ENTIRE commission so you should have your OWN agent to represent you instead of his.

Unfortunately Builders agents will lead you to believe since it is a new home you don't need to do certain things (most importantly have a home inspection). These are not true. You must do everything that you would do on a resale and MORE with a new home. Again, most importantly, have a home inspection.

It costs you nothing to have your own agent so please find one. Although, since you have worked with the Builders agent you may have already, unknowingly, entered into a verbal contract with them.

mfullmer

My background is:

Mother and Step-Father owned up to 12 dealerships at one time in the San Francisco Bay Area during the time I was in High School until I was around 30. I worked every summer and ran the main office for 3 years after college.

My Father owned several development companies and I ran a few of them for over 8 years on-and-off. I also have been a licensed Realtor in California and currently have my Real Estate License in Georgia.

zueslewis

the dealer does not "own" the car, in most cases. It is a piece of merchandise that gets supplied, shown and sold just like jeans at a clothing store.

The dealer doesn't make or warrant the product - the manufacturer does. It's no different than a jewelry store selling watches.

You can't tell me the realtor doesn't have a vested interest in property that is being sold - unless the property sells, there is no commission, unless there's some minor "listing fee". A car dealer certainly doesn't get a "listing fee" from the manufacturer. The dealer has to pay for his own advertising, just like a realtor.

zueslewis

if you want my qualifications to speak on car business and other retail matters, I'll e-mail you my curriculum vitae.

mfullmer

The Car Dealer BUYS the vehicle from the Manufacturer and SELLS the vehicle for a profit.

A Real Estate Agent represents the SELLER and makes no profit from the actual sale.

Case in point: The Agent is PAID to bring a qualified buyer. Whether or not the house makes a PROFIT, the agent is still paid the same percentage.

A Car Dealer is a retailer, just like a store. A Real Estate Agent is a service provider.

mfullmer

mfullmer

A Car Salesman is EMPLOYED by the Car Dealer and works for them to sell THEIR product (lest you confuse this statement, meaning "the product that he OWNS, not a product he MANUFACTURED.). He has NO contract to protect the interest of the consumer.

A Real Estate Agent is SELF EMPLOYED and enters into a contract to represent the Seller or Buyer.

bigorange30

manufacture a product to own it or sell it. Dealers own the product they sell. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as an invoice. It is a very different thing than selling real estate. The real estate agent is only providing a service and has NO capital invested in a particular product he is selling like the car dealer does.

grandtotal

Enough already.

Zueslewis: you need to admit that on this occasion you are incorrect.

Mfullmer: you need to realise that Zueslewis has a problem with admitting he is incorrect.

Both: Let it go, then we can all get on with our lives and someone with a question for a car dealer may get a chance to ask it and have it answered.

Maybe I should get a job as a host (I don't think).

zueslewis

"A Real Estate Agent represents the SELLER and makes no profit from the actual sale."

The agent doesn't get paid UNLESS the house sells - what's the difference?

I find it extremely amusing that a real estate person is scrambling to ditance himself from a comparison with car business people - there are scumbags and professionals in both lines of work.

grandtotal - I spent 10 years in the car business, mostly in management. I think I'm more than qualified to speak on most retail-related matters.

grandtotal

Even though you have spent 10 years in the car business, mostly in management and are well qualified to speak on most retail-related matters, it doesn't mean you are always right! On this occasion you clearly are not (IMHO) but are unable to admit it. We all make mistakes, yes even me, and on this occasion, in my opinion you are mistaken but are unable to concede it.

abtseller

owns the car, the bank does.

Ed

zueslewis

Dealerships move a product - vehicles. Real estate agents move a product - property. Both are sales arenas, prone to the same good and bad issues involving consumers. That's the only position I've taken, so how am I wrong for that?

I have a problem with a real estate person taking the moral high road because they don't deal with cars. It's a product or service, just like what anyone in any sales position sells - products or services. Just because someone sells a $200,000 house instead of a $30,000 car doesn't automatically make them a better person and exempt from being a [non-permissible content removed].

I don't mind being wrong, I've been wrong before, just point out what you're talking about now - I'll gladly concede, if applicable.

mfullmer

A real estate agent is contracted to find a buyer for a property at what the seller is asking.

A Real Estate Agents commission IS NOT BASED ON THE HOUSE SELLING.

Case: A Seller enters into a contract with an Agent to sell the house for $100,000. The Agent brings a qualified buyer who makes an offer on the house for $100,000. The Seller decides it's worth $120,000 and rejects the deal.
The AGENT gets paid the commission because because they have done their part of the contract. The house did not sell.

I'm not trying to distance myself from the car business because hey, thats what put me through school.

It's just funny to hear people talk about contract law when they don't know about it.

grandtotal

Usually yes, but I know a dealer who owns every car on his lot. Not a huge lot admittedly but several million dollars worth of vehicles.

zueslewis

my first dealership's CEO owned all the cars outright - floored them himself, until he bought 3 more stores and couldn't afford it. He started flooring through Ford Motor Credit. He was amazed how much money that freed up.

Owning your cars isn't something you see very often, if ever, any more. It's an old school thing to use your own money instead of someone else's.

mfullmer

I GIVE UP.

Apparently, he didn't say that

"the dealer does not "own" the car, in most cases. It is a piece of merchandise that gets supplied, shown and sold just like jeans at a clothing store."

in post 2803.

Good Grief. Now I am feeling a bit superior.

mfullmer

There is a difference between being the owner of something and being the lienholder of something.

I would try to explain the difference but why bother.

zueslewis

I explained that dealers don't "own" the cars since every dealer or dealer group I know of, which is quite a few, doesn't "own" their cars and they're not "leinholders", either.

My former CEO was the last of an old breed to do this, and he went over to flooring cars in 1993. 10 years ago. My statement concerning "owning" cars wouldn't have been accurate 10 years ago, but it is today, as far as I know.

While you're feeling superior, enjoy it - it's an empty feeling with no true rewards.

mney6

The Real estate agent is the same as a car salesman.
The cars salesman brings a buyer in from outside and submits the offer to the dealer.It is the dealers(seller) to decide wether to sell the car or not.

mfullmer

FLOORING is simply getting a loan on the vehicles that a dealership BUYS from the Manufacturer.

The Bank/Manufactuer then carries a LIEN (i before e) on the vehicle that the dealership owns.

If the dealership never owns the vehicle how (and why) would he get a loan to pay the manufacturer for it? Why would the Manufacturer want money (invoice) for a vehicle from the dealer if they have not sold it to the dealer? You don't get a loan on something that you don't own.

Simple business.

I'm sorry that you thought my quoting your words was rude. You may quote any of mine. If it is correct you are not being rude. If it is wrong, you are not being rude and I will apologize for my wrong statement.

mfullmer

The Car Salesman does his job to sell as many cars for the highest price. Hopefully he does it with honesty, integrity and loyalty.

The Real Estate Agent does his job to sell as many houses for the highest price. Hopefully he does it with honesty, integrity and loyalty.

What else really matters?

BTW: The "he" is in the generic "homosapien" context.