isn't a "legal" "binding" "contract" in any state of this great nation unless both parties are in total agreeance. If there is a dispute, there IS NO CONTRACT, and yes, you'll have to give the car back. Or they can take it, it's up to you....
You didn't get anything for free, you're not entitled to a lower price, and if I was the sales manager in this situation, at the very moment you hesitated to return and recontract, I'd repossess the car.
Then, I'd fire the moron who made the mistake, unless it was me, and then I'd just walk into a brick wall repeatedly until I felt properly beaten.
The money is owed to the dealer, fair enough. If you sign any contract and you dont read it, shame on you. If youre the dealer and you dont walk your customer through the contract, shame on the dealer too. Someone posted that the contract isnt worth anything unless both parties agree, but why even have a contract if its worthless in law anyways? How long do you have to change your mind and not "agree" to it? If i buy a car and change my mind the next day, can i get a refund? Or if whoever signs contracts on behalf of the dealership signed at the lower (or higher) price, wouldnt that mean acceptance of the deal? I recall a post a while ago that said the finance company didnt want to finance the customer after something like 30days of having ownership (i think that was right) but where do you draw the line? It doesnt seem very fair to me that a dealer or finance company can yank a car back after a sale but i doubt a buyer can give a car back or am i wrong?
to a post where I was congratulating bowke on a personal victory...
but, contract law is contract law - it doesn't matter what is signed if both parties didn't intend the factors of the contract to be what they ended up to be.
Now, as a buyer, when you go to a place of business and agree to a price, you have to honor your agreement - it's the seller that gets the benefit of the doubt.
One factor to think about here - perhaps numbers were transposed incorrectly from a deal worksheet to a more formal write-up sheet before they were fed into the computer to generate all the forms, I don't know.
What I DO know, however, is that this customer's initials or signature is SOMEWHERE on a worksheet agreeing to the price the vehicle should have sold at - we can discuss it all we want, but that worksheet, and those initials or signature is whet the judge and jury would see, in addition to someone trying to take advanatge of someone's else's mistake.
Like Terry brought up a bit ago...what if the tables were turned? That customer would have already called the BBB, the ACLU, the local police, the state police and the national guard to make sure the contract was corrected.
no, the job offer was subject to my friend taking the GSM position first. he has verbally taken it, and is scheduled to start monday, but until he does, and calls me to say "report to work tomorrow", i will say its still only 99%.
but im geeked right now. i have been a little burned out from pounding the pavement, so the timing is perfect.
This is tricky. assuming there is no worksheet, how can they prove otherwise? They put their signature on the contract too, as did our foobar555.
FYI, I purchased a car last year. There was no worksheet. he had his numbers and I had mine. When we reached an agreement, he typed out the contract and we both signed it.
Note: Doesn't the signature indicate that you are IN AGREEMENT? how can you turn around and disagree later on?
Foobar555 is lucky and the saleperson is not only unlucky, but also needs to learn. That is all I can say.
edit: if the starting price is $2k lower, then Foobar555 is really lucky, but if the bottom line does not add up to the total of all individual items, then you will have to redo the contract.
its obvious that you dont understand the salesperson's job. he has nothing to do with the contracts. the F&I manager is the one that prepares the printed version of the documents.
the worksheet is something that is put into every deal at every dealership ive worked. it will also be in every deal when i am a sales manager, not only to keep customers honest, but to catch mistakes that i will inevitably make as well.
It won't get to the judge.. They will just repossess the car.. That is easy to do, especially if the taxes and registration aren't complete, and you don't even have to be "right" to do it.
Like I said, if I was the sales manager and this guy hesitated a split second, I'd pop the car, no questions asked - come get your trade, see ya, bye!
I go to court in automotive legal cases as a primary function of my job, and most cases are black and white - consumers go in half-cocked, following their neighbor's advice - you know, the plumber who has bought some cars and is the neighborhood "car guy"?
These folks get laid away and get socked for THOUSANDS in fees...
Word to the wise - only follow advice from someone qualified to give it!
Verbal or not, what you agreed to is exactly the point. As someone wrote, it was a mistake. Who here does not make them? Trust me, there is this crazy thing called karma, and when you dont do the right thing, it comes back to you in spades.
My wife and I signed a " Retail order for Motor Vehicle Form" - We gave our trade-in value as down payment, but won't hand the car over till we get the new one. The form doesn't have a vin number for the new car because they're tring to locate one somewhere else to trade. Our car on the order form doesn'thave a its vin either. the form has price we got the new car for, our trade in value, tax and tags...They been dicking us around for a couple days, and said if they couldn't get a car in three days we could look somewhere else. The agreement say's we only have three days to cancel and it has to be in writing.
My question is this a legal agreement or can we buy a car from another dealer ???
.... ** They been dicking us around for a couple days **
Interesting concept .. the dealer is spending their time, phone calls and energy trying to find "you" a vehicle ~ and you feel they are "dicking you around", and a Pilot no less ...
Ya Dicking around - like when he told me they had 4 on the lot of the color we wanted... But used the old Bait and Switch Trick, I got this one here same Color but $600 more with sidesteps and Rain Guards...Today the computers where down all day...So sorry I offended you, but when I'm forking out $30000 out of my pocket for a car, I expect them to work hard and find a car in a timely manner they promised, if they knew they have trouble finding the car, why they make a deal with me???
No problem I had a guy call me today...Ready to match and better any offer...But I'm not going to do that unless I'm sure it's legal...That's why I asked the questions, I just don't want to get taken in the long run...
Don't worry about having signed any sort of agreement, copilot. The dealer that you are working with can not force you to purchase a vehicle that they do not physically have. Consumers can easily get out of any deal that they have agreed to as long as they have not physically taken delivery of their vehicle yet. This sort of situation gets sticky when consumers have given dealers a deposit on the vehicle that they are getting because even if their deposit was supposedly completely refundable, dealers often drag their feet quite a bit when it comes to giving the money back. If you feel that your current dealer is being straightforward with you and is honestly trying to get you the vehicle that you are interested in as quickly as possible, you might want to wait on them for a little longer. However, if you feel as though they have mislead you don't worry about purchasing a vehicle elsewhere.
not to sound like an [non-permissible content removed], but I believe I am. However in the interest of furthering my own knowledge, I would like to know how can a dealer take my car away when this is stated on teh contract that we both signed:
and the verbally agreed upon Total price of the car was $23,200.
When the judge asks me the question "What price did u agree to?" I would say "miLord....i verbally agreed to $23,200" IF and ONLY if I was a complete moron.
my real answer would be: " We verbally agreed to $21,200"
and I'd already have "your" car locked up at my place....
I would never do a deal without a worksheet, first, and if it ever happened, the salesman would be fired - just for reasons like the one you're describing.
It's amazing to me that people are always trying to screw dealerships, and justify it by saying that dealerships deserve it because they screw people out of money. Well if that's the case, then sure, you are completely justified in keeping that $2000. But don't complain when somebody tosses a brick through your window and steals your $2000 laptop. Because your ill-gotten money deserves no more protection than anybody elses'.
I'm not in the 'industry' or anything. I'm only saying, as one human to another, do the right thing. Either buy the vehicle for the agreed price or don't buy it at all. But don't try to take advantage of somebody's mistake. That's just not right.
........... Oh, I wouldn't give it too much thought ...
Hear that sound in the background.? ~ "beeeep beeeep beeeep" ~ .. thats the sound of the dealers tow truck backing up to hook it .. I'm sure by this time, that Chikoo understands that the dealer doesn't have a cashable contract - and they're there to pick up "their" property ...........................
>>> YOU call a tow truck company to have a car towed from a car lot? Good luck <<<
what if I can hire one? or what if a friend has one? or what if I have one?
Anyway, NOBODY apparently has any idea of supporting the hypothesis that the dealer can tow my car away. Looks like an urban legend to me....created by salespeople to frighten the customers.
>>> My parents taught me values at an early age. I guess for some people it doesn't matter. Sad.... <<<<
I would love to buy a car from you. I will know that I am not bieng fleeced. But when the perception is that salespeople fleece "honest" people without any second thougts, why should I have any?
I have a friend who has a little used car lot.. does some BHPH stuff, etc... If someone misses two payments, he just makes a phone call, and the car is back on his lot. Tow company doesn't ask questions or ask for paperwork, or anything else. They just pop the car and collect the check. That is no legend.. I've seen him make the call a dozen times.
if a mistake happens, then the dealer doesnt cash the contract, and the car isnt paid for. at that point, you have a vehicle that you didnt pay for.
and before you say "but i would be paying cash"...
if you write a check for a mistake that the dealer made, they just dont cash the check. therefore, the car isnt paid for, and you are in possession of property that is not yours.
after a reasonable amount of time, it can be reported as stolen.
Chikoo..... no matter what my parents taught me, my word is my bond. I closed a real estate deal by 'word' alone, no contracts, no realtor, just a closing atty and a handshake. I trusted the woman buying my condo and she trusted me. That was 9 years ago and the transaction was smooth as silk. Our "word" meant something.
M.
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
I think you are all misunderstanding Chikoo. He simply wants to know how can the dealer get out of a signed and apparently binding sales contract when the other party does not cooperate. There is no morality involved : it is simply a legal question. That's the way I see it. Perhaps someone can answer it.
wrong amount, you can't complete the sale - you have to get a correct check. Same with a finance contract.
Until that contract is "cashable", there IS NO CAR DEAL. The car doesn't belong to you. I canbtake it back as easy as I want, because legally, we haven't completed the "deal", so there is no "contract", so the car isn't "yours", it's "mine". And if you don't bring it back and correct the problem, I'll take your car. Period.
All of the liberal ideas about "what about my rights and my feelings" are not a concern when you're rolling $25,000 worth of sheetmetal that doesn't legally belong to you.
If you don't return the car under this scenario, it is theft, and you can be prosecuted.
Automotive contract law is my specialty - if the contract isn't agreeable by both parties, you don't have a contract.
Now, if the dealer didn't catch the mistake for 6 months, that's their problem for being bad at math and not double-checking their contracts for accuarcy.
This scenario was caught during the "double check for accuracy" stage.
i dont think we are misunderstanding him, we deal with people like him every day. i think, however, you are misREADing him. his posts were laced with phrases of malice toward a dealer.
the point made was that if a dealer makes a mistake on the contract, they have every right to disallow the deal at any point BEFORE they cash the contract or check. once they cash it, then the deal is done.
but if they havent cashed the contract or check, then the vehicle is not paid for in full, and still belongs to the dealer.
I write a check for the deal on a friday evening. Take the car on a joy ride. first thing monday morning, I give the car back to the dealer since the check has not been "cashed".
there's no such thing as a "return" rule, just a "repossession" rule.
I'd hope that someone who was slimy enough to pull that one WOULD leave the car with me, since I'd make sure that contract got funded and the lender was immediately notified of a "first payment default". We'd have our money, and that car would be gone to auction so fast it'd make your head spin - in fact, I'd put it in with my weekly auction transport load to help the lender slam you.
Have fun dealing with that repo on your credit, buddy...
in that case, drift is right. for someone like you, i would send the contract in as soon as you drop the car back off with that attitude. you will get a payment book in the mail, and will have to make payments or suffer a repo on your credit.
and if you wrote me a check, i would have you arrested for grand theft by deception, since your checks are probably not good anyway.
Comments
You didn't get anything for free, you're not entitled to a lower price, and if I was the sales manager in this situation, at the very moment you hesitated to return and recontract, I'd repossess the car.
Then, I'd fire the moron who made the mistake, unless it was me, and then I'd just walk into a brick wall repeatedly until I felt properly beaten.
but, contract law is contract law - it doesn't matter what is signed if both parties didn't intend the factors of the contract to be what they ended up to be.
Now, as a buyer, when you go to a place of business and agree to a price, you have to honor your agreement - it's the seller that gets the benefit of the doubt.
One factor to think about here - perhaps numbers were transposed incorrectly from a deal worksheet to a more formal write-up sheet before they were fed into the computer to generate all the forms, I don't know.
What I DO know, however, is that this customer's initials or signature is SOMEWHERE on a worksheet agreeing to the price the vehicle should have sold at - we can discuss it all we want, but that worksheet, and those initials or signature is whet the judge and jury would see, in addition to someone trying to take advanatge of someone's else's mistake.
Like Terry brought up a bit ago...what if the tables were turned? That customer would have already called the BBB, the ACLU, the local police, the state police and the national guard to make sure the contract was corrected.
Duncan
"You must be joking. Be a man and give them more money, No way."
You're merely satisfying the balance of the total dollar amount that was agreed upon by YOU and the dealership.
X is the agreed upon price
X-2000 is the mistaken/incorrect price .
X-2000+2000= X, which just so happens to be the agreed upon price.
So how is that "giving them more money"?
It is a classic "put the shoe on the other foot". I guess that shoe doesn't fit, LOL.
until i actually report for work, im not getting too excited...i know how this business works. ;-)
At least that's how I see it unless I'm missing something.
That reminds me, Craig, do you have any Lithia stores in your neck of the woods yet? I know they're in Spokane and Vancouver (WA) - just wondering...
Thinking about a rehire since Spokane is only 40 miles from my wife's parent's place in Idaho...
We are the largest dealer in the state and we are family owned. They treat us like family.
It's now just a Honda store since Isuzu is all but gone, Suzuki became a stand-alone, and VW moved in with BMW.
but im geeked right now. i have been a little burned out from pounding the pavement, so the timing is perfect.
assuming there is no worksheet, how can they prove otherwise?
They put their signature on the contract too, as did our foobar555.
FYI, I purchased a car last year. There was no worksheet. he had his numbers and I had mine. When we reached an agreement, he typed out the contract and we both signed it.
Note: Doesn't the signature indicate that you are IN AGREEMENT? how can you turn around and disagree later on?
Foobar555 is lucky and the saleperson is not only unlucky, but also needs to learn. That is all I can say.
edit:
if the starting price is $2k lower, then Foobar555 is really lucky, but if the bottom line does not add up to the total of all individual items, then you will have to redo the contract.
the worksheet is something that is put into every deal at every dealership ive worked. it will also be in every deal when i am a sales manager, not only to keep customers honest, but to catch mistakes that i will inevitably make as well.
Foobar knew what price he agreed to and the contract needs to be redone using the correct numbers.
Plain and simple!
And the contracted price was $2,000 lower, by an admitted mistake?
"Mr Consumer, you've breached your verbal, binding contract, and you owe $2,000"
Next case!!
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Like I said, if I was the sales manager and this guy hesitated a split second, I'd pop the car, no questions asked - come get your trade, see ya, bye!
I go to court in automotive legal cases as a primary function of my job, and most cases are black and white - consumers go in half-cocked, following their neighbor's advice - you know, the plumber who has bought some cars and is the neighborhood "car guy"?
These folks get laid away and get socked for THOUSANDS in fees...
Word to the wise - only follow advice from someone qualified to give it!
My question is this a legal agreement or can we buy a car from another dealer ???
Thanks
Interesting concept .. the dealer is spending their time, phone calls and energy trying to find "you" a vehicle ~ and you feel they are "dicking you around", and a Pilot no less ...
Terry.
Want to start that whole process over somewhere else?
Is this " Retail order for Motor Vehicle Form" a sales agreement or not ??? I put no downpayment down, just the value of the trade-in...
Thanks
Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers Message Board
1. Price of car: $20,000
2. tax: $1200
3. Downpayment: 0
============================
4. Total: $21,200
============================
and the verbally agreed upon Total price of the car was $23,200.
When the judge asks me the question
"What price did u agree to?"
I would say "miLord....i verbally agreed to $23,200" IF and ONLY if I was a complete moron.
my real answer would be:
" We verbally agreed to $21,200"
any rebuttals?
I would never do a deal without a worksheet, first, and if it ever happened, the salesman would be fired - just for reasons like the one you're describing.
I'm not in the 'industry' or anything. I'm only saying, as one human to another, do the right thing. Either buy the vehicle for the agreed price or don't buy it at all. But don't try to take advantage of somebody's mistake. That's just not right.
I guess for some people it doesn't matter.
Sad....
Hear that sound in the background.? ~ "beeeep beeeep beeeep" ~ .. thats the sound of the dealers tow truck backing up to hook it .. I'm sure by this time, that Chikoo understands that the dealer doesn't have a cashable contract - and they're there to pick up "their" property ...........................
Terry.
I will come to the dealership and tow MY car back to my home.
YOU call a tow truck company to have a car towed from a car lot? Good luck.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
When the President of USA can say
" I did not have sex with that woman" what happened to "perjury" ?
Perjury is a concept like God. Only the ones who believe in it, fear it. for the others, it doesn't make any sense.
what if I can hire one?
or what if a friend has one?
or what if I have one?
Anyway, NOBODY apparently has any idea of supporting the hypothesis that the dealer can tow my car away. Looks like an urban legend to me....created by salespeople to frighten the customers.
I guess for some people it doesn't matter.
Sad.... <<<<
I would love to buy a car from you. I will know that I am not bieng fleeced. But when the perception is that salespeople fleece "honest" people without any second thougts, why should I have any?
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
and before you say "but i would be paying cash"...
if you write a check for a mistake that the dealer made, they just dont cash the check. therefore, the car isnt paid for, and you are in possession of property that is not yours.
after a reasonable amount of time, it can be reported as stolen.
or if you refuse to return it...
or if you take it from the dealer's lot.
have fun with your 5-10 in the pen.
I wouldn't want to sell you a car...sorry.
I would be afraid I might make a paperwork error.
You've shown your colors.
M.
Perhaps someone can answer it.
Until that contract is "cashable", there IS NO CAR DEAL. The car doesn't belong to you. I canbtake it back as easy as I want, because legally, we haven't completed the "deal", so there is no "contract", so the car isn't "yours", it's "mine". And if you don't bring it back and correct the problem, I'll take your car. Period.
All of the liberal ideas about "what about my rights and my feelings" are not a concern when you're rolling $25,000 worth of sheetmetal that doesn't legally belong to you.
If you don't return the car under this scenario, it is theft, and you can be prosecuted.
Automotive contract law is my specialty - if the contract isn't agreeable by both parties, you don't have a contract.
Now, if the dealer didn't catch the mistake for 6 months, that's their problem for being bad at math and not double-checking their contracts for accuarcy.
This scenario was caught during the "double check for accuracy" stage.
the point made was that if a dealer makes a mistake on the contract, they have every right to disallow the deal at any point BEFORE they cash the contract or check. once they cash it, then the deal is done.
but if they havent cashed the contract or check, then the vehicle is not paid for in full, and still belongs to the dealer.
I write a check for the deal on a friday evening.
Take the car on a joy ride.
first thing monday morning, I give the car back to the dealer since the check has not been "cashed".
will that work?
I'd hope that someone who was slimy enough to pull that one WOULD leave the car with me, since I'd make sure that contract got funded and the lender was immediately notified of a "first payment default". We'd have our money, and that car would be gone to auction so fast it'd make your head spin - in fact, I'd put it in with my weekly auction transport load to help the lender slam you.
Have fun dealing with that repo on your credit, buddy...
and if you wrote me a check, i would have you arrested for grand theft by deception, since your checks are probably not good anyway.