Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Welcome to the Edmunds forums! We are changing the way you sign into our forums. Click here to learn more.

High End Luxury Cars



  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "I can't recall anyone ever claiming that any lexus has superior body rigidity or quietness compared to a BMW..... "

    Have you ever seen anyone claim a Lexus isn't sturdy?

    Look at the safety statistics, the long term durability of the body and associated hardware. Wow! the Lexus family sure seems sturdy from everything I have read.

    And the quietness part? Gimme a break. We all know who makes quieter cars.

    "True, the RX does not have a 3rd rear seat, but it's a chick car and a clumsy handler. It's like a fancy livingroom on wheels."

    Wow! It's amazing how many men I see driving a RX330! They must really be women putting on a costume while driving the RX.

    "Chick car". Did you forget something? Last time I rememeber the 3-series is a pretty big chick car.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Oh, yeah. I've driven the LS. In fact, I spent quite a bit of my early career with Toyota and I appreciate what they do as a company, for sure. Reliability has nothing to do with sturdiness in the sense that I'm relating to. If that were the case than we'd rank the Corolla number one.

    Conceding the handling point is a HUGE concession. Then, you're saying better braking, steering, control, acceleration..........I'd contend that this is what driving is all about. Vehicles are for driving and if the BMW was that unreliable than they wouldn't compete at all much less be the top selling luxury make in the world.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    The LS is an upscale Camry. The 7 is not an upscale 3 series. And things do go wrong and fall apart on these cars. Same as BMW. I'm not quite sure it matters, if the electric motor in the LS seats fail vs the electric motor in the sunroof on the 7. Same diff as far as I'm concerned. The wood for the base model LS is ugly. I find the front seats uncomfortable.

    They may have less defects and maybe a boring car is what people want at the $70K price point, but the 7 series will trounce the LS, if BMW addresses the issues. People I talk to, don't fault the 7 series mechanically, they fault the i-drive.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "Reliability has nothing to do with sturdiness in the sense that I'm relating to. If that were the case than we'd rank the Corolla number one. "

    Then what are you relating to?

    -Body rigidity? Well, Lexus ranks right up there with Mercedes & BMW in safety ratings. Safety ratings are obviously a testement to body rigidity. Also, I have a uncle that owns both a ES300 with 130K miles and a 2000 LS400. The ES300 is still flex free and suspension soaks up bumps as well as day 1, not to mention steering & brakes operate flawlessly. Sure seems the body is still pretty tight to me after all these miles. The LS400, built like a tank, no flexing, even over the most potholed roads, can't hear any squeaks, rattles from anywhere. Is that sturdiness?
    How about how the hardware holdsup? 130K miles & all windows are original, all still work. In fact, everything in the car is still original and everything still works as good as when new.

    "Then, you're saying better braking, steering, control, acceleration.........."

    Check the stats buddy. The GS brakes better than the 5-series. the LS430 brakes better than the 7-series. The IS300 brakes better than the 3-series. Acceleration? Isn't the GS430 on par with a 540i? Or the LS430 quicker than the 745i/IL?

    "Vehicles are for driving". So than shouldn't everyone be driving a BMW? How is the RX330 squashing the X3&X5 combined? How is the ES330 outselling the 3-series sedan line-up? Or the LS430 outselling the 7-series by about a 2 to 1 margin? Huh...wait I can answer that. Not everyone has handling as their #1 priority!
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "but the 7 series will trounce the LS, if BMW addresses the issues."

    And what would happen if Lexus addresses the few issues that they do have?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Check the stats buddy. The GS brakes better than the 5-series. the LS430 brakes better than the 7-series. The IS300 brakes better than the 3-series. Acceleration? Isn't the GS430 on par with a 540i? Or the LS430 quicker than the 745i/IL?"

    No according to recent comparisions, the 7 series is the better handler, better accelerator, better braker and gets better gas mileage.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    The last comparo I read had the LS430 with slightly better braking and I think about the same acceleration time. Gas mileage? You know how accurate EPA figures are. Also, the BMW 745i is 18/26 vs. 18/25. wow! big difference. Thanks for the correction!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    That's the thing about comparos they are all different, the last one I read, the 7 had a lead in the performance stats department. The reason the LS came out on top was because the testers felt the 7 series ride was too harsh and didn't like the i-drive and felt the LS interior is better (I don't think so).
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    ah yes, magazine comparos do vary based on many factors. The last C&D comparo of luxury cars was the last one I can remember. And the comparo did favor the other cars because the LS430 didn't have the sport suspension option, therefore the Ls430 only had the 17" wheels with H-rated tires, whereas the others had bigger and stickier tires.

    but of course, comparos also vary greatly based on weather, track conditions. And of course you could test the same cars on different days and get different measurements.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    My contention is not that Lexus has poor body rigidity or bad brakes. Only that the BMW is better. It's a better driving car. And, it leads the luxury segment in sales.
  • "the seven series is superior inside and out to lexus"


    Does it have superior Dependability?
    Superior Ride
    Superior comfort
    Superior Price (in terms of a lower price not higher)
    Superior sound system
    Superior Nav system
    Superior Emissions (in terms of Lower emissions)
    Superior safty systems
    Is it more quiet.
    Does it have a superior dealer and service network

    The above are all objective standards...More pleasing to the eye is a subjective standard....The 7 series does handle a little better if you like to drive very fast on twisty roads...
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    There's action in the BMW bullpen...
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    My contention is not that Lexus has poor body rigidity or bad brakes. Only that the BMW is better. It's a better driving car. And, it leads the luxury segment in sales

    Talking of total hack job here. Livinbmw, you obviously need to re-check your facts on the 7 vs LS. Have you seen/heard/read of this comparo test back in Dec 2003 ? _id=7359

    Guess who won ???

    How about sales YTD ? Guess who is wayyyyyy ahead of the 7-series in sales ??? Well, guess again !!!

    Now back to my rocking chair....
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Maybe you can explain why the 7 series sales are drying up in its second year of production. That says it all right there. They can't sell decently even with heavily subsidized leases right now. But your entitled to your theory and opinion.

    Designman - I always get a kick out of the big Camry label. The guy defeats his integrity before he leaves the starting gate. Sorry - this is just someone trying to stir things up and it's not worth it.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Bases loaded, no outs and he has to face THESE two guys? Oac, I thought you were on the 2-week DL?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Trouble with the relief pitcher (ehm, Livinbmw) is that his curve ball doesn't curve as well, his fast ball is a little less fast, and his sinker pitch is not sinking and hence unable to keep the batters honest. Otherwise, he is a heck of a relief pitcher with three pitches, just not up to major league stuff (yet). Let's see how many outs he can record before the manager yanks him off the field and send him back to the minors.

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    It's an exhibition game.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    That's what they call them here.... Where you sit outside on a covered porch and watch the sunset. Beautiful.... HAd the laptop going and thought I'd look in and see how things are doing on edmundsville. I'll check back in occassionally, just won't be able to read every post (simply skip to the end...)
  • sapparosapparo Posts: 68
    The 7 series is an electronic mess, typical poor german electrical systems design. This car is already tanking in resale compared to the other two big dogs. My cousin a master tech. who worked at Infiniti and Lexus for 10 years is leaving to go work for BMW. The japanese luxury brands were just routine maintenance, wear items and oil changes very few major issues.

    Much more lucrative to go work on the german brands which are well below japan in quality especially lousy electrical systems. All kinds of problems with their new models and recalls already. What's the X5 up to now 20? Don't look at surveys just go ask your nearest technician about reliability problems and you'll get all the data you need from the horses mouth.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Certainly we can debate the ideas and opinions presented without getting personal ... let's try that, okay?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    “My cousin a master tech. who worked at Infiniti and Lexus for 10 years is leaving to go work for BMW… Much more lucrative to go work on the german brands…”
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    What were you trying to post/attach the other day that was driving you crazy?

    You have to read that post better. He means lucrative in a negative way. So I think he struck the guy out.

    Now for fun - it should be interesting to see Clemens and Piazza tonight. I hope we get a conference on the mound.
  • livinbmwlivinbmw Posts: 120
    Funny, a best buddy of mine is a technician at Lexus, he just bought a Z4, and he makes a ton of loot. He's says that Lexus' are boring. But, I'm not talking about fixing a car. I'm talking about driving a car. Driving, you know, what a car is made for. BMW is coming off of its third consecutive record month of sales in the US. Meanwhile, lexus is selling more SUV's than cars. My main point here, regardless of what opinions are of the 7 series and I-drive, is that toyota makes good vehicles and BMW makes cars that are great to drive.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Ljflx... I was trying to post my favorite Porsche interior. Everybody is always knocking Porsche interiors but when you pay the ransom they actually are quite spectacular IMO... full leather, carbon fiber and aluminum tech touches. I don't like wood on P-cars though.

    "You have to read that post better. He means lucrative in a negative way. So I think he struck the guy out."

    No, I meant Sapparo was batting!!

    I think we’ll see the stoic Piazza as usual.

    Livinbmw... I have a BMW also so I know exactly where you’re coming from. What these Lexus guys may not understand is that some BMW lovers will do anything for the ride, even if it means sacrificing reliability. Doesn’t bother me though when someone says my cars suck because my purchases are well-calculated and my wife and I know exactly what we want. Can’t tell you how much sass I put up with… people in other forums who say Boxsters (another one of my cars) aren’t real Porsches etc. No matter. These forums are funny, fun and often informative. Enjoy your car, but as I said before, this Lexus crowd is tough to debate, but good guys.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
      Perhaps you've ignored the SUV craze that has all manufacturers running to take advantage of..Even Porsche of all nameplates has a SUV..Lexus would have to be stupid not to capitalize on the market. I still own a 1992 LS400 and have experienced few issues with the car..
      As for calling the LS an overpriced Camry..The LS was designed specifically for the US market and released later in Japan..It took 6 yrs and $1 Billion to develop that car. (Did any other Lexus owner get that email?) That car singlehandedly changed the dynamics of the whole Luxury car industry.
      As for Handling, I'd agree the BMW turns better, but I haven't driven a new 18" LS..But the braking stats and acceleration stats are comparable if not better. I know Lexus cars offer a quieter and more comfortable ride. If Lexus cars are so boring, then why would anyone buy them? You ought to consider this before you make such blanket judgements.

    What exactly is a driving car? IMO an ideal driving car is one that caters to the consumer's need. A Lexus does that nearly perfectly..The majority of buyers aren't going to race them on the autobahn..For practical daily driving, it doesn't get better than Lexus.

    (Designman, it doesn't help the pitcher when they're facing guys like Manny Ramirez.Lol)

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    The real funny part of all this is the labels people put on things. BMW can make a car every bit as quiet and great riding as an LS430 tomorrow if it chose to. It's not its mantra so it's not going to happen. Similarly Lexus can do the same thing the other way around if it wanted to. It will tweak cars like the LS430 to more handling in the future (and maybe even offer a true sport version) but it will always err on the side of quietness and spectacular ride. That's its mantra and that is what it's customers want. Lexus has toyed with handling so far with the IS and people I know who have that car say it outhandles a 3-series. But the 3-series is real adept anyway and a much better looking car. Lexus didn't get it right all the way around and made the interior too cheap. I am curious to see what they do with the next GS. Supposedly your favorite company - Porsche - defined its driving dynamics. If I were Lexus I would have aimed more at the E-class than the 5-series. But BMW is going to be quite vulnerable with that new 5-series design in the next few years and there are several Japanese cars gunning for them now.

    The Boxster is every bit a Porsche to me and a great looking car. If I was 20 years younger I'd buy it.

    SV7887 - perfectly stated.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    You mean this one:

    I think the IS in that same e-mail looks real good.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Actually yes to all for the 7. Having spent oodles of time in both recently, the 7 leads in the subjective areas IMO of looks/interior, and the subjective areas of performance. Harsh ride for some is soft ride to others. The LS430 has been described as floaty, if that is what you like.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The driving dynamics of the 7 and LS are debatable, but if you honestly think iDrive is better for Navigation than the Lexus system, there is something terribly wrong with you. Lexus' system is the best in the industry, with Acura a close second. Lexus has been offering touch screen, DVD based Navigation systems since '98. What did BMW have in 98? Nothing. Livinbmw is obviously so blindly devoted to BMW as the do-no-wrong, greatest fluffy cloud pink bunnies and flowers company in the world that there is no real point in serious debate. I will admit Lexus is not strong in certain areas, but things like quality of materials, and electronics they crush BMW. If you think EVERY car and EVERY thing BMW does is faultless, your off in la la land.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Can a Mercedes "fanatic" say something here? For the record I like Mercedes, Audi and BMW in that order. BMW used to be my #2 car.

    I'm reading this debate and it is even more pointless than the Lexus vs. Mercedes debate. Why you ask? Because BMWs aren't about what Lexus are about and vice versa.

    A BMW person mentions sturdiness, which I define as solidity and the way the car feels driving down a bumpy road and/or lack of body/chassis flex when you pull out of the driveway that has the extreme slant or dip.....the Lexi respond with "a 1996 LS400 was found to be more reliable than a new 7-Series". Do you all not see where these two statments or points aren't even close to being related. A car can be "sturdy" or sturdily built physically, doesn't mean it is reliable. BMW and Lexus two polar opposites. No need for debate.

    Audis have a spectacular "build" but they are the least reliable of the German luxury brands.

    I read above the 7-Series sales are "drying up" in its second year of product. Wrong and mostly hype. The actual numbers:

    June 2004/YTD 2004/June 2003/YTD 2003 - 1628/8776/1577/9935

    While they are down 1159 units YTD 2004 compared to 2003, they did sell more in June of 2004 than they did in June 2003, I'd hardly call this "drying up" and the 7-Series is in its third year of product, not its second.

    Big difference between a "driving car" and a "driver's car", a Lexus can be whatever you want to call it like former, but the latter it isn't.

Sign In or Register to comment.