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Comments
is the official S-Class Sport package picture. The only thing I don't like is the kink in the middle of the kit where the doors meet, other than that it looks great. They should have kept it smooth like the CLS' AMG Sport package imo, though they have used this before to much better results.
M
M
Were I an MB exec, I'd go for a slightly tweaked version of the current S. IMO, the real needs are in the market erosion of the brand; focus on build quality and electronic componentry integration, not on style. I don't see anyone complaining that the current S style is so boring and unloved. I don't get it with these penchant for unnecessary change. Take the Lexus LX470. That truck has been selling practically the same design since 1998. I don't see anyone not buying the LX because the style is *old* and outdated ! Rather, Lexus sells all the LX470 it builds, despite the anemic HP (235), its re-badged LC heritage, and an old/dated style 8 years running.
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http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9491&page_number=1
The same article points out that pollution standards going into effect I think in 2006 will raise the cost of diesel cars (not just the fuel itself).
Seems more expensive to me than hybrid, at least in 2007. If I had to buy a high-mpg sedan in 2005, it might be a 320 CDI...but that's only 2005-6.
So given that and:
1. the increase in mpg
2. the unquestionable longevity of diesel engines
3. the reduced complexity of the engine components
It makes a compelling arguement, even if the cost of diesel fuel is the same as premium.
I don't have enough knowledge about European reliability scores to discuss the issue, but diesel engines can go 500K+ without even trying. With proper maintenance, of course.
While diesel fuel doesn't get get rid of our dependence on oil, the fact that it has better mpg per gallon given the equivalent gas vehicle is a nice bonus.
Well its worth a shot I guess, they have nothing to lose in the U.S. market right now.
M
I'm not exactly sure what your question is? The things you say they need to concentrate on, they've done just that. Have you seen the interior pics? The best detailing I've seen on a Benz since the late 80's early 90's. If they had gone for just an updated version of the current S, everyone would harp that they didn't do enough. Once a design gets into the head of a particular company's designers it shows up on everything, no different from Toyota to Lexus. Like the Avalon and Solara looking like certain Lexuses. Mercedes will tell you the Maybach looks different and is seperate, but even I don't buy that one. They clearly meshed the Bach and the current S and added some wheel arches from only they know where.
You seem to imply that the Lexus LX470 is a hot item, but the truth is Lexus only sells all they can build because Toyota doesn't build that many. It is severly outdated, but you're right it does trade on its TLC heritage, similar to the even more outdated Mercedes G-Class. Both models will easily post huge sales gains once they're re-designed.
IMO, the Maybach's market failure is due to lack of name recognition, way too much similarity to a more "common" Mercedes, and styling that really doesn't stand out enough. Not everyone like the new Rolls, but it does get your attention and you know what it is instantly. I was against its looks from day one, it should have looked more like the concept from the 1997 Tokyo autoshow.
M
Failure? Nobody is really pushing diesels except VW and they sell a good number considering they are all alone in that part of the market. Mercedes' current E320CDI does ok, but they really haven't pushed the car yet because they're waiting on cleaner diesel. European "reliability scores" aren't any concern for diesels any more than they are for a regular gas-powered "European" car so I have no idea what you're trying to imply here. In fact diesel engines last longer and are more durable, and engines aren't the cause of MB's reliability ratings anyway.
M
IMO, that is the main problem.
M
The C&D article tried to make the point that even with low-sulphur fuel, 2007 pollution standards will require additional particulate control technology in the vehicle, and this will raise per-vehicle prices an estimated $4500 at the end-user level. At that point diesel will be a very poor economic proposition.
http://www.rickdamelian.com.au/default.aspx?action=news&id=321&MarqueID=39
The last paragraph says it all about diesels perception here.
http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8930495
M
Interestingly enough they don't show the new S in Silver. My guess would be that those wheel arches wouldn't look so hot, and would be in keeping with the previous designs.
M
Hmm, I never said anything of the sort regarding the LS and GS. My feeling about the current LS is that it works but is a plain Jane, and I nicknamed the new GS Quasimoto. I think I even posted a photo of Charles Laughton in the role. Perhaps that’s when you were on hiatus and missed it. Actually, I think I will rename the GS The Porpoise and give Quasimoto to the Maxima or Quest. The GS isn’t bulky enough to be Quasimoto. As far as the LS sketch, I commented favorably on its low height-to-width proportion but that was it.
That post was in response to Ljflx, not you. See his tag on the inset of my original post?
M
:shades:
And then those wheel arches... oh my. Since when is a wheel arch supposed to come all the way up to the level of the hood? I just don't get it. What the heck were the MB designers thinking?
It breaks my heart that I can't justify buying a beautiful used S based on reliability concerns, and now even if MB gets its reliability act together, I no longer like the looks of the car.
All I can say is that hopefully Lexus will NOT take design lessons from the new S any more, and will get it right with the '07 version of the LS. The only good news is that maybe by the time I have worn out my '05 LS, the other Euros will have gotten their quality ratings back up (did anyone note how low Audi scored in the new JDP study?) and/or will have gone back to cleaner, simpler designs. Or maybe Infiniti will take what they have done so well in the new M and take it up one more notch into a new Q. Otherwise, I may be "stuck" in the LS for a long time (not the worst place to be, but....). Kind of reminds me of trying to buy a men's suit when lapels went to 4"-- you either had to go to Brooks Bros and be "out of fashion", or just keep wearing your old clothes and not buy anything until designers got sick of trying to be so extreme.
As for those pictures, I think the W221 is shown in red because it is the new model, and they want it to stand out from the previous generations. If the W221 were silver, the point of the picture would be lost.
I find this: "If I shelled out $350K for a Maybach I wouldn't be a happy camper right now. On the other hand If I'm buying a $90K S because it has some tresemblance to a $350K supercar I'd think that MB thinks I'm a dummy. The S should sell on its own attributes and the Maybach on its. Anything else comes across as a weakness or a cover-up - at least to me."
most interesting. Tell me does this apply to all the SC430 owners that have to ride next to Camry Solaras that look like their 60K Lexus? Does the Avalon bother ES330 owners? I see your point about Maybach and think it is valid, but does the same thing apply to Toyota/Lexus with their similar designs/interiors and general likeness from brand to brand?
M
Though I doubt Lexus will copy the new S for two reasons. They don't have but a few months to do so and the design for the upcoming LS is probably locked in already. If anything they'd copy the current one like the did with the 2001 LS looking like that W140 S-Class pictured above, they had a long time to study that design. They only have a few months to look at the new S. Secondly they've for better (IS) or worse (GS) have found a styling theme so I'd look for the next LS to look like a giant IS and/or a blending of the GS and IS.
M
Anyway have a happy and safe 4Th as I may not post again until next week. We're still buddies and always will be despite differences of opinion.
I guess you'll have to excuse me for not understanding why you don't see the difference between the current LS, which I agree is derivative of the W140 S-class that I said in my post that I liked, and the new S which I said I don't like (particularly for the exact same reasons that I think you have expressed concerns about in a number of your posts-- i.e., the rear and the wheel flares).
I don't know how I could be more clear on this, or what you are missing. I love the W220, like the W140, and therefore like (not love) the LS that looks much like the W140. I dislike the new W221, which looks nothing like the current LS. To me, there is no inconsistency in liking the current LS more than the upcoming S. But my personal value system puts more emphasis on reliability and long term ownership experience than on styling-- so I chose the LS over the current S when it came to spending my own money, not just looking at pictures.
So what are we disagreeing about with regard to the W140, the W220 and the W221?
I also agree that the '07 LS design is likely pretty locked down at this point. But that doesn't mean that over the last year or two the Lexus folks weren't following MB's design prototypes even more closely than the typical Edmunds forum poster did (I may be jaundiced, but I don't think corporate espionage ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall), and my comment was only meant to emphasize my expectation that Lexus will continue in its own direction rather than try to emulate the direction MB has taken the S.
Yes this is true, 4+ years now. Thanks, you do the same.
M