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High End Luxury Cars



  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    I am not 6'3" - couple of inches less, but when I step on the scale - then I can really impress, that's why the car IS SMALL! Especially rear seat... Especially for the person who is in the rear seat, specifically when I am driving....
    Again, current Nissan management looks very capable and I don't think they will abandon the segment. I suspect, there is something going on in Infiniti's design kitchen - and so far, with the new French chef they've got, the dishes come out very tasty. Let's just wait.
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    Well, the word from my source at Infiniti is that they are just now designing and formulating what will happen for the 2006 year (with a debut in mid-2005). From what I understand, there are no plans to do anything with the current car until then....That certainly shows a bit of Infiniti's apathy towards the car...

    By the way, I was told that they may even drop the Q45 model designation and come out with a totally new model designation for the Infiniti flagship.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    Design of any car is expensive; design of a flagship is even more costly, especially if the prior one was a flop. Return on a successful 60G's car can be tremendous, just ask Lexus - but this is not the experience Infinity can relate to, that's why it is understandable. ROI, if you know what I mean. But, they will warm up to it, they just need to star believing in themselves again. They should show same practical approach they had to G35. And, may be, show me the car prior to final stages of design - so far I was never wrong, predicting a car's fate.
    I would think twice prior to killing Q45 nameplate - not a single person I know has ever gave any negative comments regarding this car. Moreover, lack of Infiniti's attention to the car and extremely poor marketing is what stops people from continuing ownership of Q45.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I think you missunderstood me about the Q45, it's a good car, and I happen to actually like it, especially more than it's cross-town rival. But to say it's %95 of what you'll get with an S-Class or 7-Series is a little too far fetched. Sales while not a end-all determining factor, they do gauge what people think about the car *to a degree*. My point was that this car if it was so close to being an S-Class or 7-Series the word would have gotten out now, and it wouldn't be dead in the water in only it's 2nd model year. The Q45 doesn't have the ride/handling mix of those cars. It doesn't ride as smoothly as the S and it can't hope to match the 7-Series for sportiness. The Q surely isn't ninety-five percent of the S-Class or 7-Series either when it comes to features, especially when talking about the S-Class. Styling is a personal thing, and to most the Q missed the boat. Nissan/Infiniti also tried to market the car as a sport sedan, of which it isn't, that helped kill it in the marketplace. They also bragged about it's hp and the car when initially tested wasn't no where near as fast as it should have been considering it had a 30-40hp advantage on the class, again at that time. The M45 surely didn't help matters either.

    The Q just came out for the 02 model year, so thats why its not getting any refresh for 04, plus the car has been a sales dud, so it's hard for Nissan to justify the money for something like that.

    Bottom line the Q45 is a good car, but when it comes to S, A8 and 7-Series territory being a "good" car doesn't cut it. It's about %70 percent of those cars, no where being %95. It's really a good car in search of proper marketing and some fine-tunning if they truly intend to position it as a S-Class, 7-Series or A8 alternative.


    Exclusiviity is a often-used excuse when a car doesn't sell well. If you were to say the Jag is exclusive I'd agree, they didn't go for volume in the first place, never really have with the XJ. Thats not Infiniti's case. So the S-Class is a cookie-cutter design because its used a taxicab in it's home country? You said that just to take a shot right old friend?

  • libertycatlibertycat Posts: 593
    IMO it is 100% of these cars for 25% less. It is not a "sales dud" as I see them ALL the time and the S Class is so common, I get tired of its styling. It does have the handling and power of the pitiful 7 and S.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well the industry says it isn't, nobody has ever compared the Q45 with the S or 7 favorably. If Infiniti says its been "lackluster" in sales then I'd go with what they'd say about it. No other car in recent memory has bombed as bad in only its second model year.

    How you feel about a car and it's position in the market are two very different things. I feel the same way about the A8, but Audi has done it right for 2004, and it's sales should show this soon. The S and 7-Series are "pitiful"? Ok.

  • libertycatlibertycat Posts: 593
    You don't have to fight every argument until you win, merc. They are pitiful because they are SO much more expensive than Q45, XJ Type, and A8 yet offer LESS. Plus the 7 Series looks like a 18" scale model car inside. So plasticky and the wood looks SOOO fake even though it isn't. THAT is pitiful. And the S Class has less wood trim than the Q45 even. That is SO silly.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yep I guess we will if you're judging a car to be "pitiful" because of it's wood trim. Thats it silly. None of the cars in this class are pitiful. That notion flies in the face over everything ever written about these cars.

  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Posts: 241
    Merc, I never mentioned the S-Class's name in that taxi statement - it's an old tired joke; BMW's and even Jaguars are used as taxis in Europe too, but Germany is the country known for using what Americans consider the highest mass-produced luxury (i.e. - not Rolls or Maybach, but the step below, which is this class) whether it be Benz, Jag, or Bimmer as taxis - there are also Jaguar police cars and I've seen Bimmer police cars too (both the X-type and 3-Series are used as high-speed interceptors) if that helps. I really didn't mean offense by it, nor was I trying to "fire a shot" at any particular brand so I hope you don't take it too personally. I really am sincere.

    I think your own protective nature of your favorite brand has caused you to sometimes believe that people are trying to bash when they really aren't. I'm the same way, so we both need to cool down on it a bit with that. We've got to come to realize that these are only opinions, and what does it matter what someone says about a car - in this case, "nothing" is the answer and the key to being enlightened. Really, nothing more was meant by the comment than to say that the Q45's low sales do gain it more exclusivity - be it through not selling well or the company's own decision to make it a low volume car, it still ends up being more exclusive than its much faster selling competitors. It doesn't matter how it becomes exclusive - what matters is that it is exclusive.

    So, we're old friends again now, old sport?

    Here, as a tolken of good will, I offer this newfound review of the XJ.

    Despite them liking the car, through my experience in reading their other works, *my opinion* (just in case you like them - really don't want to offend) of them is that they are pretty worthless writers. But sometimes they offer a few good bits, and here, they do offer some of the things I've been saying - like how the XJ is on a modified and lengthened S-type platform; the DEW98, which is still a Ford design, but strengthened with some bracing enough to keep rigidity when cast in aluminum. See, and you like this "not-so real" Jaguar! :-) <-see it!?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Of course we are, we never really "fell-out" as the saying goes. We just tend to not budge and disagree on our views about our brands of choice. There is only truly one person in all of Edmunds that irks me to the point of me actually getting me seriously annoyed with them, and that person rarely, if ever posts on any of the Sedans boards. I was right with you on the taxicab thingy, you know I hear that one a lot. That and the dump truck, garbage truck jabs, as Mercedes-Benz makes some of those also. The only thing I disagree about is the Q45 so-called exclusiveness, it's not exclusive by choice, like certain cars are. They're desperate to sell more of the, but can't. The A8 is in a similar boat, but just had it's best sales month ever so that may change for Audi. When Nissan gets around to their upper segment cars, or in other words the next Q and more importantly the M45 they'll have better success.

    Well you know we can live/die by car reviewers. Most curse them when their view doesn't line up with their own. I'm guilty of that when it comes to BMW and Car and Driver, other than than I pretty much agree with them *most* of the time. There are exceptions. I do find Edmunds' first drives sometime suspect at times. Things "like I couldn't fit my Arizona Ice-Tea in the cupholder" have to be laughed at, imo.

    As you know I'm a big fan of the new XJ, it's just what Jaguar needed in the premium segment. Is there any hope of another XJ12? I did read where there might be a long wheelbase version in a couple of years. I voted it "World-Class" on the site you linked, surprisingly %37 of the voters rated it as acceptable? I just don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion at all.

  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Posts: 241
    Well, first, I am glad that we are in good standing with each other, old sport. Though we anger each other when in "the heat of battle," you should know that I will never have ill feelings toward you simply for us having different opinions. Perhaps in our differences of opinion, our similar attributes (dare I call us both stubborn - no, wrong, word, "we both hold to our positions firmly" - there we go) come through. And we both know tons about the respective marques that interest us the very most.

    As far as people criticizing M-B for knowing how to make world class luxury cars and more utilitarian vehicles too, from a logical standpoint, the person badmouthing the marque because of that actually looks pretty stupid. Look, they know how to make ALL those different vehicles! OMG! - they make a dump truck - yeah, even Honda can't make one of those, and they advertize how they can make everything from an ATV to an NSX. It's just plain silly to criticize them for having the know-how to diversify; it's like picking on the nerd who scored a 1600 on his SAT's - ha! ha! - look who should really be laughing. Know what I mean?

    As for Q's exclusivity, I see your point about the differences, I RESPECT IT, I still believe more firmly in my own opinion, but I'll agree wholeheartedly to disagree (without one of our "battles" - that's what I'll call them now :-) ).
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Ok fair enough.

  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Posts: 241
    Wow! Waiting for that response was like the waiting for the outcome of the '62 Cuban Missile Crisis! Glad we both ended on a good note.

    See you around later, old sport.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    I lied in Germany for many years. I have never seen a Jaguar taxi anywhere in Europe. The X-type might have changed it, but I'd be surprised.

    BMWs also are highly unusual as taxis. And they have not won the police car procurement in a while for all I know. The Munich area is about the only place in Germany where you'll still see beemer police cars for obvious reasons.

    Mercedes have been seen as great taxi cabs for one obvious reason that actually makes them appealing: long diesel tradition, and longevity.
  • stehersteher Posts: 37
    I am from Germany/Ingolstadt and I've never seen a X-Type police car or taxi! The taxi sector is dominated by Mercedes and a few Audis and BMW and a few other brands. The Police-car sector is the part of BMW and Audi and MB, but also VW and Opel are used. "Highspeed interceptors" as you call them are mostly ordinary Audi A6, Bmw 5-series or MB E-class or even Opel Omegas. And they have around 200 hp. That's enough for 150 mph! There are very few more powerful police-cars!
  • t6553gwt6553gw Posts: 18
    You guys are really fun, I read your meesage every morning and it's better than any news page. In my oppinion of which car is better, there is only one way to find out - take it to the autobahn and drive the hell out of it, then you will know.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    I hope next flagship Q will be much larger car, with bigger engine (Q56?) and athletic performance - Nissan can pull it off. But exterior styling should be more contemporary classic and underscore luxury. Q45 should be redesigned to be ether LS430/BMW740, or larger BMW540 sized. It's important, though, to go full throtle, like with G35, and not halfhearted, like current Q45, which was designed in time of financial hardship for Nissan, and times like that impair the brains, obviously. Luxury car must be OPULENT luxury, NO COMPROMISES. And ask VERY high price, vorget about discounts. It must be desirable, it must be a dream. You must give people something to drrol about.
  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Posts: 241
    Hey guys, I am well traveled throughout most of western Europe and while I'll admit that a Mercedes or BMW taxi is much more common than a Jaguar one, seeing a Jaguar XJ taxi was also not impossible - cause I did.

    At the time of that spotting, the X-type had just come out - the Jagtaxi was an XJ (X300), meaning the Jaguars have been taxis for quite some time even before the Jaguars became more popular with new entries.

    Also, these are British, but the rest of the European police force I believe looks about similar in terms of the colorful paintjobs. Yes, most Jaguar police cars and taxis will probably be found in the U.K. playing "cops and robbers" like their Mk 2 ancestors, but around the German and French border, you may spot an S-type police car. Sorry I didn't snap photographs of those while I was there (we have to keep up appearances, you know), but perhaps these will help, despite them being British:




    S-type .jpg

    S-type rear jpg


    S-type side

    As for the "high speed interceptor" term, that wasn't mine; an article I read whose link now seems broken had been discussing the roles of the recently-added-to-the-fleet X-types in some British police force and all of the technology added to the cars.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    A couple of years ago I saw 911 in police striping in Duesseldorf/Neuss area. Guess, the purpose was same as what Z28 is doing on our highways.
  • libertycatlibertycat Posts: 593
    I called it pitiful because the interior looks so bland and the price is SO high and yet the overall car is worse than competitors that cost $20,000 less than it. The only reason to get an S Class is for the Mercedes logo on the car.
  • libertycatlibertycat Posts: 593
    Once again, you have made a post about the Q45 that is totally untrue. It is obvious you hate the car and your goal in life is to badmouth it as much as possible. At least the exterior styling isn't dead BLAND like the LS430 or controversial like the 7 Series. And the Q45 is every bit as big as the LS430 and short-wheelbase 7 Series. And it has all the features of other ultra luxury sedans besides the iDrive variants everyone hates. And a 340 horsepower engine isn't bad for a $60,000 car. And you make it sound like the 5 Series is larger than it. Get real! I have never in my life heard something more outrageous than that. The Q45 is WAY larger than the 5 Series, E Class, A6, and M45, which are all in the mid-level luxury sport sedan class. You REALLY need to get your facts straight.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    Hey, lib, I didn't laugh that much and that hard since long, long time ago... I - hate a car... This car is just a car, not more not less, and I am not into fetish with loving or hating a car!!! "your goal in life is to badmouth it as much as possible" - God, what an interesting accusation! Are you for real?!!! And sweet Jesus, what an an emotional explosion!!! I am sorry I played with your toy for a while, but I didn't take it away! (Also I'll tell you big secret - I really have other goals in my life, but - tsh-sh-sh - nobody else must now this! This is our secret, OK?)
    Aber, in plain English: Q45 is not a sales success. Therefore it must be changed to get rid of old legacy and new way to achieve that must be found. And I personally don't think the current car is an absolute eternal perfection. Therefore, above I suggested a way - just an idea!!! - of the possible direction for Infiniti to change their upper-crust echelone. Nothing more!
    And, if you went through my prior posts, I want to buy a Q45; most likely I'll go for the "moderate beauty" of '01 car, but I want to wait 'till the end of this year, since more and more '02 cars will be on the market; if the price is right, i might go for '02 one. So, I am critical, but supportive.
    And, if you like Q45 more than anything, I belive your local friendly Infiniti dealer is still open.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    I might have overdone it a bit in the previous post, but didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings. So, lib, it's cool, OK?
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    This discussion is really lively... As I have stated, I am a certainly a die hard Q45 guy..

    Despite what Libertycat says, the car is still a sales flop....I think that they only sold 156 Q45's in June for the U.S. I think that their sales target was at least three times that amount. So, the empirical proof is that they are not selling.

    IMHO, think that they had a interim chance to do something before 2006, if they had reworked the controversial headlamps and front grill, put some larger wheel options, and tweaked the engine to get just a bit more performance (overseas versions of this engine have 360 hp.)...But they did not do anything.... They must have decided to just go to the drawing board to start work on the next generation.

    As for the Q45's cache of having something exclusive or different... I like it. I enjoy being stealth-like in my Q. My business is in an inner-city, commercial industrial area, and I am much less conspicuous in my Q45 than I would be in a more recognized German car...... Some folks want the MB or BMW status symbol. I do not really car about that.

    As a footnote, I also think that a nice car is not always determined by a popularity contest, ... nor does it mean that a slow seller is a bad car.

    One last note: fsv says: "May be, show me the car prior to final stages of design - so far I was never wrong, predicting a car's fate."....fsv, was that a tongue-in-cheek statement????
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Folks, debate the vehicles all you want, but please leave out the personal jabs. They are not appropriate here.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    Don - let's try it - you name a contoversial car, i'll think some time & try to "foresee the future"? I am barely wrong in things like this, so, it'll be interesting and fun - though it will take time, for the point to prove itself or flop.
    Also, I don't know why you call them "controversial", as the matter of fact everybody I know likes the gatlin gun lights. May be their total size and shape... But then again, the whole light is pretty much in style of the whole car.
    As for interim changes prior to '06 - I dunno, i'd say - cut short it's lifecycle or DRAMATICALLY restyle the car. But restyling will be questionable investment. I'd say make what I said in prior posts.
    2 Pat - I am not offended, hope nobody else is, if you meant my and lib's conversation. Totally emotionless discussion is not interesting. But it's a good idea for everybody 2 try 2 be as much reserved as everybody can.
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    fsv: I was not looking to play a quiz game. I just found the idea that you are an auto style guru, worthy of consultation to the world's auto industry, to be either funny, or provocative.
  • libertycatlibertycat Posts: 593
    I haven't heard anything bad about the headlights from anyone. Do you not like them or know somebody who doesn't, don?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    You've proven to me that you aren't bringing any facts to the table and if you really believe something like that there is nothing more for us to debate. Do you see that even some of the Q45 supporters don't even agree with some of your out-there rhetoric? Read some of DonFenn's posts. Much more level.


    You stated: "I also think that a nice car is not always determined by a popularity contest, ... nor
    does it mean that a slow seller is a bad car."

    I agree completely. There are few "good" cars that for some reason or another weren't very popular: Volvo C70, Audi A8, BMW 8-Series and the current Q45. I think that Infiniti really botched the current Q45 chances with the previous Q45 or "Q41" as it should have been called. Now that was a car that went backwards in every way compared to the original Q. The 1997 Q was slower, smaller, worse looking, less powerful, and on top of all that I think it was more expensive. That in itself took the Q45 nameplate out of the market, and it'll probably take 2 full redesigns to correct that, provided that those 2 redesigns are awesome cars.

  • double6double6 Posts: 2
    The Q45 could be the greatest car in the world it is ugly as sin! In Japan this is the Nissan Cima, not even the top of the range! The nissan President (first generation Q45) still leads the line. In my humble opinion this car is no competition for the new XJ or 7series.
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