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High End Luxury Cars



  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    exactly. Bring in Nissan President! Just make it larger that the current Q45 and call Q56 (and don't forget to slap on high pressure bi-turbo on it, please).
    Don, why do you think that only people in auto industry have sound judgement? If it were true, names such Cord & Pakkard would still exist along with Rolls Royce and Maybach, Chrysler wouldn't be silent in Daimler-Chrysler, and there wouldn't be an avalanche of bland, boring and sometimes plain idiotic cars from GM, Aztek being a crown to them all. I personally always felt, that new ideas, new people, new influences must have a chance. Otherwise it will be a stiff cast society, like in some oriental country 2000 years ago. Who told you that they are untoucheable royalty? Like in any business, they have more dead wood and ballast among them, than healthy young sprouts; and the companies are being mismanaged all right, producing not what they should and could, but just something. Following your logic, people like the same Ghosh, or Zora Arkus-Duntov or many other would never get a job - 'cuz they are not form "the world's auto industry".

    P.S. I was in charge for logistic part of ALL deliveries of steel to VW mexico and Brazil for 4 years, if it will help you to accept my opinion.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    Guys, check out this site:
    you can find there President, Q45 and others. What'd u think about the slammed Q? I am surprised the look didn't pick up here in US.
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    fsv, I was just seeing if you were serious or joking when you offered your expertise to the automobile industry. It seemed just a bit over the top. So, arranging steel deliveries to a Mexican and Brazilian VW plants makes you a automotive style expert?
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    I never said, that I base my judgement on my previous profession. I said, it is perception of style, time and common sence. Also, a car is always more than style, it is a not finalized sum of constantly changin' variables. Regardless of occupation - why not? I'd say industry background here is more of a disadvantage - exactly 'cuz of it you find Toyota, Honda - pretty much everybody sending their design guys out to art exibitions, furniture show rooms, etc. - trying to find what's appealing to the targeted market group, what's trendy, what's cool OUTSIDE OF THE INDUSTRY. Though, in my opinion, as result even worse thing is happenig through that - young creative talents are being used for fact collection to be further on digested by corporative burocratic mashine - fruits of that - Lex IS300 is the proof, how you can flop doing that - exactly because it is the same approuch GM was using trying to build their car, making something for everybody - and, where is GM now? Though Toyota so far is doing not so bad with X-Box and rest of japanese young crowd cars they don't sell here yet.
    To be able to offer something, one must have drive, it's own perception of the world and style, certain coolness and know the way to make people attracted to this look at the things around them translated into style of a particular car created for the particular purpose. There are few people in the industry - same Ghosh I named too often, Ferdinand Piech, may be Yakokka (hell, forgot how to spell his name) Lutz, though less so, May.
    Some of you posts - like knowing the most recent sales numbers, mentioning "my sources in Infiniti", etc., make me think you that are an insider, or a dealer - am I correct? This comes from general observation that guys driving a Q45 normally have better things to do than to go through Autonews and rest of industry and non industry periodics to fish up some facts...
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    To be candid, I have friends in the organization. These folks attend meetings and product planning sessions. The sales figures are from some of these sources that keep me in the loop. There is also a Nissan/Infiniti site that offers up the sales figures.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    If I am not wrong, Nissan has a design center in La Jolla, California - are they from there?
    So, you still don't give me the credit of having correct opinion on a car's design/sales success?
  • libertycatlibertycat Posts: 593
    but no, he had to keep on trashing the Q45. "ugly as sin" is another opinon which I accept. FYI double6, I think it IS a worthy competitor of the XJ/7 Series. And I have already said that I like the XJ Type better than the Q45. But when you add in value, the Q45 comes pretty close to the XJ Series (which is cheaper than most in this class) on my list. Now, I would really, truly appreciate it if DonFenn, merc1, double6, and fsv would just accept my opinon and stop trashing a car they know little about obviously. Actually, I'm just curious too. Why don't you think the Q45 is up to competing with 7/S/XJ/etc? Because it is too cheap? Not selling well enough? Because it doesn't have a three pointed star or a cougar? Because it doesn't have iDrive, which every article I have read about has LOVED (hint, I'm being sarcastic)?
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    Some recent US sales data:

    Make Model May 2003 May 2002 2003 YTD 2002 YTD

    Mercedes-Benz S-Class 1,989 2,002 9,281 8,642
    BMW 7 Series 1,973 2,209 8,358 8,888
    Lexus LS 430 1,848 2,451 8,003 10,777
    Cadillac Seville 1,773 1,524 9,494 8,967
    Volvo S80 1,399 1,121 5,826 6,407
    Jaguar S-Type 1,388 1,246 5,965 5,820
    Lexus GS 300 1,058 1,233 4,236 5,911
    Jaguar XJ Series 930 801 2,386 3,594
    Saab 9-5 763 1,202 3,882 4,199
    Acura 3.5 RL 671 667 2,956 3,841
    Infiniti M45 298 - 1,645 -
    Infiniti Q45 190 294 1,008 1,676
    Lexus GS 430 190 277 852 1,052
    Audi A8 142 84 396 456
    Audi S8 5 40 114 206

    Doesn't look pretty in this market segment for Audi or Infiniti!
  • libertycatlibertycat Posts: 593
    The S80, Seville, and 9-5 sold GREAT! Especially the 9-5, which has been out a while and is known about by few people!!! The A8 and S8 should be combined and the 9-5, Seville, S80, M45, GS300/430, and S Type shouldn't be there as they are in the mid-level luxury class.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    I said "give me the credit of having correct opinion on a car's design/sales success" implying future possibility what makes a world of difference form "insisting that your opinion is "correct"". I normally don't have a problem of being understood neither. And there is no need in apologies - this is just difference of opinions, in a pointless discussion, where obviously "there is no such thing as a "correct" opinion". But, upon mutual agreement, lets drop this particular going nowhere topic, which shouldn't have existed in the first place - and finally go back to cars.
    In reality, if current Nissan President is the best of what Nissan can offer, it sort of looks sad - it is simply larger first generation Q... In reality it means, that there is nothing up in the sleeve with what Infiniti could reinforce it's upper echelone here in US.
    BMW 7-Reihe design - I am truly surprized with bimmers 2nd place - all my buddies in Germany don't like it's design (esp. the rear), and to the best of my knowledge, it doesn't sell well there - but, these is the US data, and obviously it's not a problem here. I wonder, what the numbers will be for a model/total sales...
  • dwongswongdwongswong Posts: 62
    If I could build a luxury car, I would build one with these companies' parts:

    Audi A8L: exterior and interior styling
    BMW: "titanium silver" metallic paint (simply the best silver I have ever seen), "fun to drive" factor, and transmission
    Lexus: reliability, very quiet ride, and fit and finish
    Mercedes: engine and suspension

    As far as leather, brakes, navigation, rear camera, interior materials, and best looking rims, I have no idea? Please tell me what is your ideal car.
  • libertycatlibertycat Posts: 593
    Is Q45 exterior, XJ Type interior (besides stereo and roominess) and gas mileage, LS430 reliablity, stereo controls, and resale value, Q45 rear camera, extended S Class roominess, and A8/Q45 exclusitivity.
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    I was supposed to be at at an event test driving the A8, S-class and 7 Series Sunday at the Fontana Motor Speedway...However, I tore my achilles tendon while playing tennis and I cannot drive (right foot). What a bummer!

    Meanwhile, as a temporarily disabled driver, I have had the opportunity to sit as a passenger in my Q45 for the last couple of days. It really is smooth, quiet and comfortable. ..48,000 miles and no rattles either.... It gives a different impression to sit as a passenger in your own car. It reaffirmed how much I like my Q45......but I still have a hankering for an A8.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Be careful. I also like that A8 but have gotten used to Lexus LS430 perfection. The Q has that same type of reliability and I'm sure you've gotten used to it as well. I've got 52k perfect miles and the car is as quiet, smooth and rattle free as day one and never required anything but ordinary maintenance. I come do for a new lease next year and the prelim LS pix look pretty good so I'm most likely staying put.

    My ex boss has had his 2003 A8 in the shop 5 times in 5 months already. His 2000 A8 was also a problem car. But he will not drive anything that is not AWD here in the Northeast. I had told him to try the S500 4-matic but he's not an MB type.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Now let me see if I have this right, first you quote me as saying the Q45 is "ugly as sin", yet that wasn't my post. Next up it's your opinion that I don't know anything about the Q45 and I'm
    supposed to accept that? Right.


    I must say I'm shocked that you'd recommend a S500 to anyone.

  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    merc1 - what's so wrong with S500? the way I see it, any car in this group is a marvelous achivement of automotive engineering. My personal preference, Q45, is my preference 'cuz it's best bang for the buck, in my opinion, is reliable and I have nothing against its styling - but 20 yaers ago (when I didn't have money for any of these cars, he-he - but granted, I did) my choice could be something else - so with ljflx.
  • fennfenn Posts: 197
    In all due respect, I think that this topic has become too much of a debate among a small group of participants.

    It would be nice to have a broader, and more cordial, forum of luxury car owners, prospective owners, and automotive enthusiasts, sharing thoughts about these cars in a less contentious fashion.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Nothing wrong with the S500, I was shocked because (ljflx) is a devoted Lexus fan.

  • gteach26gteach26 Posts: 576
    Very nice website! Thanks for sharing... that Q is starting to look VERY appealing. These "homemade" sites provide a much better look than the manufacturer sites any day. Anyone out there with similar "homemade" LS,S,7 sites?
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    I love the lights on the car - there is a pic on which shows the lights on - the car looks like some misterious space creature....

    Hey, Don, how are you feeling? What's the time estimate on healing?

    Home-made page is good - I said in one of my first post, that Q45 marketing is poor, car is misrepresented and underadvertised. Why Infiniti doesn't want this car to sell well - I dunno.
  • bwiabwia Boston Posts: 1,907
    I read in today’s Wall Street Journal that Mercedes-Benz is offering new cars to about 2,000 owners of the 2003 E-Class Mercedes who paid for, but never received, a navigation system in their original vehicles.

    The article goes to say that by offering customers new cars, Mercedes was steering clear of a complex retrofitting process, as well as trying to repair some dents to its quality image; and the cars that Mercedes takes back will be sold as used vehicles.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    I test drove one today as I'm off this week. Ride is too harsh for such a luxury car and it is not all that quiet. The review in the magazine was right on the money. For Audi's sake I hope it's a first generation production problem. Interior is well designed and luxurious but overall I found the car disappointing because of the ride quality. Car handles very well but it is hardly a sports car. Yet the thumps over uneven road surfaces are more like a sports car. This car will not be a big hit with US luxury car buyers. It may sell 400-500 a month for the first few months than it'll drop back to its normal 200 a month level.

    The Range Rover (drove it at the same place) is fabulous and is right there with the LX470. Flip a coin as to which is better. I'd actually lean a bit to the RR in luxury and to the LX in ride quality. But the RR rides great and the LX is also quite luxurious. Can't go wrong with either one.

    Why would you be surprised I recommended an S500. I almost took one myself. It's a great car - but I don't have great confidence in its reliability vs. Lexus. The Lexus LS beats it in the things that matter most to me - but not by much. I have no doubt an S500 will be more reliable than an A8.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Did you catch the Maybach article in the automobile section of the Sunday NY Times?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Thats very interesting, as some like the ride. Question, what size tires were on the A8 you drove? I noticed that Edmunds praised the ride, but their car didn't have the 19-inch wheels. I wonder if it's just the big-tire combo thats producing these complaints about the ride. Though I suspect none of these cars are going to ride as soft as a LS430. We'll just have to see about the sales. I suspect it will do better than the old car for quite a while.

    So does your liking of the RR mean it may have a future in your garage?

    I did register at NY Times website, and I did read two articles on the Maybach, if those are one of the ones you mean, or is there another one?

  • jagboyxtypejagboyxtype Posts: 241
    I've got to agree with ljflx on the A8's ride for the most part. Took a look/drive this weekend and it was rather loud overall. It doesn't really like to glide over bumps, but the intruding thuds from the suspension and its rather unrefined manner for the price may be because the car (e.g. the very vehicle I tested) is new. When Jags - and I only use the example because they are what I know best - are brand new, their suspensions are a little more loud over bumps than one would expect if they've ever ridden in a Jaguar with some miles on it for comparison, but they quiet down and refine a lot after a few thousand miles and eventually really buffer out any road imperfections and bumps better than anything else that has any sort of sporty side to its personality to go along with the luxury side - mind you, I know this from much experience with various Jags all owned brand new from the dealer. But the A8 seemed excessively louder than even new off-the-lot Jags, and this was not too long after having just tested a new XJR, which has a harder suspension (and the newness thuds that come with it) anyway. A8 has a presence on the outside because of its massive size, and the interior is large but it - though executed quite well - like the A4's still left me feeling the design seemed older than what's now coming from Mercedes on its newest models or the updated traditional look from Jaguar. I don't believe the car I tested had the 19-inch wheels either, as the test car was different from the other one I scrutinized and I was unable or uninterested in looking at the tag on the one I drove. I left a bit disappointed, but I suspect it was because the suspension really hadn't had much prior use, and it may refine itself like the Jaguars' over a short period of being driven - I hope that's the case. Still a nice car.
  • johnnyboy4johnnyboy4 Posts: 10
    Not so much with it's packages but with a few simple things. Drop the base price to 52k flat and have a single package for navigation. Sound too much like the RL. Consider the fact it always outsold the RL. The rear seat galor options are a little on the ridiculous side since they raise the price into Lexus range where many people will ditch the seats and go for the Lexus.
  • aramusaramus Posts: 5
    I picked up my new 2003 Q 45 one week ago. I want to report that I am totally awed by the car. It is without question the finest car I have ever driven. It is much better in every respect then I thought it would be. I cannot believe that another car is superior in some meaningful aspect, one that a driver would actually feel.

    I am also grateful to all other luxury car buyers who shun the Q 45. This has once again allowed me to lease this car at rates that are ridiculous when compared to the competition. My only conclusion to this phenomena is consumers inability to perceive the Q 45 for what it is. I believe the A 8 will fail for the same reason in the US market.

    Back in the mid 80's I sold Jaguar cars. Before beginning this job I had never driven a Jaguar, but thought they were wonderful automobiles. During my first drive, my thinking changed. I thought the 1985 XJ6 was a terrible car in almost every respect. But boy did they sell. I concluded that you could have made the seat out of pins, and it would not matter. People were sold on the "perception" of the car. Reality did not enter into customers decision making process. When Infiniti designed the 1990 Q 45, they made the mistake of actually believing that customer's purchase decisions were based on things like performance. I could have told them, nothing could be further from the truth. Today Infiniti is still suffering from this mistake.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    Aramus, good luck with the car. If you live in the place where snow falls, don't forget to keep us posted on how the car is in the winter.
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