Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

rmyers76

Interior: What's with the two round vents one on top of the other on each side of the dash? Do people really need two little round vents instead of a standard vent? Seems like a waste of space to me.

I like the fact that I have a few little nooks and crannies to store thing on my 2K GP but I don't see any around this dash.

It may be just me, but I don't get the whole retro chrome rings around the instruments on the dash. It looks like Pontiac is trying to copy everyone else. Why not be original and add something modern?

Exterior: Overall, pretty nice lookin car with a few exceptions.

The rear end could use a little more thought into it. The deck spoiler does not compliment the rest of the rear end. The tail lights seem a little to high also. It kinda looks like someone designed the rear end with water colors and rubbed a sponge over it.

The rear C pillar and rear doors look a little out of proportion. Kinda resembles an Intrepid but with a weird pointed window.

Well, that was my very opinionated review of the vehicle. Oh well, I need to remember its what's under the hood that counts.

pat

A major newspaper is looking to interview folks who learned how to drive stick in their adulthood, and either fell in love or hated it. Also welcome is any input on why people love to drive stick, and any unusual anecdotes about how you learned etc.

Hope to hear from you before Feb 22 via the Talk to the Press discussion or at jfallon@edmunds.com with your thoughts and contact information.

Thanks as always,

Jeannine Fallon
PR Director, Edmunds.com

yurakm

Once upon a time my car was in body shop for a month, and I drove a rented 99 GrandAm with these round, plastic vents. Industrial look, not attractive. However, these were the best car vents in my experience.

They let me direct air exactly where I want. It was a summer, and I want the airstream to go between my head and sholders. No cold air on hands, nor elbow, and a lot of fresh air around face.

Would like to point vents where I want it in my current cars. For this I can ignore how they are looking.

dindak

Keep in mind it's a concept vehicle. They will never build a car with a white dash. I like what I saw of the dash layout. I suspect you will see a lot of brushed aluminum like in the Vibe for the 04 GP.

mkco

I agree with rmyers76 on the rear end...looks rather high and "clunky."

Otherwise, this car looks really good! It's enough to make me consider another GTP when my leease runs out, especially if it has 280hp!

streetracer

I have a GTP coupe. The car in most situations will at worse understeer, under any combination of corning and acceleration/braking.

However, recently I have gotten it to oversteer twice when going through 2 different tight on ramps at high speed. I was braking while coming through the corner, and tail slide out and put the car into a 4 wheel drift. I usually power through these corners, but entered too hot both times.

I was able to recover, by continuing to brake and counter steer.

I really drive the car hard, and still have the original stock tires, which were rotated front to back a while back.

Does anyone have any ideas, why the oversteer? I know sometimes you can convert from understeer to oversteer, if you turn the wheel to hard and fast near the limit. However, I was steering pretty smoothly and the car seemed to be tracking through the turn.

I was doing 50MPH through a 20MPH ramp, and 60MPH through a 25MPH ramp. So, might very well have been at the limit of the stock tires, but still would have expected understeer.

The first time it was a little wet, so might have been uneven traction, but the second time it was dry.

I have found the car's grip improved as the tires wore, but now could be past the magic point with grip begins to deteriorate. The tires on rear were originally on the front, and have lots of supercharged burn-outs on them:)

Do I need new tires, and if so what about summer sports tires for the spring?

smily1

Maybe you should get yourself a little Honda so you dont kill yourself. LOL!

rkjs

I have a 2001 GT Grand Prix. After turning the car off, there is a clicking noise which continues for 5-10 minutes. Dealer told me that it's the catalytic converter cooling down and is normal. Happens anytime the cool has been warm for 20+ minutes. Has anyone else had this? It's pretty annoying and I'm tired of the looks I'm getting from people in parking lots.

dsm6

My wife's GTP does the same thing and was told the same reason for the noise. No problems to report with the cat - with 66,000 miles on it.

stnel

I bought my car in May and it still makes those clicking noises. I have an SE with the single exhaust. I thought the single exhaust was the problem but guess not if the cars with dual exhaust are making the same noises.

dsm6 - So the clicking is going to continue at 66,000 miles. Not a refreshing thought. It does get annoying but I can deal with the noise as long as there is no real problem with the car!

ruski

all cars click

maybe there are any other reasons for people to give you strange looks?

rkjs

Do you think it's because of the purple with pink polka dot hair color? I never thought of that! Just kidding!

I realize that cars click but this is really loud. I've had strangers tell me about the noise and that I should get it looked at. You can hear it as far as 40 feet away. I was just curious if anyone one else had the problem and apparently they do. I like the car a lot and I guess it's just something I have to accept.

graphicguy

My wife's cousin (being a native of Chicago) went to the Chicago Auto Show and absolutely fell in "lust" with the new GP. He knows that I'm a GP fan. His report, looks like the next gen GP will do 0-60 in the 5s with 1/4s in the high 13s-low 14s...280 HP/280 torque, stock. All that with a "manumatic" trans, with the shifter "paddles" on the steering wheel.

Refinement/smoothness/power will be bumped up quite a bit with stronger supercharger and reinforced internal engine bits of the 3.8L (an engine which I already love for its smoothness and torque in its current form). Suspension will be beefed up to offer better handling (.85G) AND smoother ride.

I know this is a show car, but after cousin's converstaions with Pontiac reps on hand to guage public reaction, they said the show design will be very, very close to the production version. Coupe version goes away...only 4-doors available (fine by me).

Interior is worlds ahead of the current model and will make it intact to production version.

Best news is that pricing will be very similar to where the GP GTP is today. It'll will be an '04 model released in early '03.

Why can't I be in Chicago when this stuff happens? If I would have known the new GP was going to be there, I would have made a "pilgrimage".

montanafan

http://www.pontiac.com/pontiacjsp/grandprix/gforce/main.html?source=pontev

dsm6

The G-Force show car in the link above sounds really good - .85 G's of handling, 280 hp, 280 ft-lbs torque, 19 inch wheels, cross-drilled brake rotors, manumatic, electronic throttle. But ...

This is a show car. The 04 GP will no doubt have many of its features, but I would expect the production version to be watered down quite a bit. I guess the 280/280 is feasible, and I hope the car will handle better than the current, though.

On the choice of engines - It looks from the pictures from the link above that this show car is using the (supercharged) 3.8 L pushrod - not sure. Can anyone who was at Chicago confirm? I was under the impression that this engine was going to be phased out in favor or the OHC 3.5 for the 04 GP. I have seen supercharged 3.5s from GM on show cars, so a supercharged GTP could still work with the OHC 3.5, but its character would change a bit.

dindak

A car-nut friend of mine told me the 04 GP will be at the Toronto Auto Show this weekend. Not sure if it's true and I can not confirm this anywhere. Hopefully he has good info as I am trying to go Friday night.

tomcat630

To moderator: This is only sedan forum with "The" in the title, I'm picky, please remove it so it looks uniform.

rmyers76

2K GP GT - 3.8L

I posted this a little while ago but did not get any response so i'll try again. I even took a look at the valve covers again tonight but I could not find any sign of a PCV valve. Help please!

Ok, now for the longshot. While looking for the PCV valve, I noticed a gray quick connect wire plug (male) that was disconnected right by the rear insert for the plastic engine cover and just to the right of the alternator. It had a pink and black/pink wire leading to the plug. I could not find the opposite plug that this came from. Any ideas???

vcjumper

You will probably find more gearheads that can answer your question quickly on www.gp-owners.com in the forum

dogman94

I've reviewed much of the material on the new generation GP. Couple of thoughts/questions that I would be interested in your collective input on:

I've always believed that torque = E.T., and that the GTP's early, flat, and relatively high torque curve resulted in quick 1/4 mile times. So why the focus on bumping up the horsepower in the new vehicle? Is this a marketing ploy, or does the "280x2" aspect of the Gforce powerplant translate to improved road performance, i.e., same low end pull, but more top end as well?

And, how does Pontiac get 17% more hp without touching the torque #? Wouldn't a bigger supercharger improve bottom end as well?

Lastly, lots of hype on the .85G number for handling. How does this number compare with other sports sedans and the current GT/GTP models?

Although this is my first post, I have been an avid reader of this forum and have learned a lot about the GP (had a '99 GTP - great car!).

Thanks.

dsm6

I haven't seen enough detail on the engine upgrades to speculate on resulting improvements in performance. Though, as I said, I was under the impression that the new GP would get the 3.5 OHC, not the 3.8 push rod anyway, so we may not see the 280x2 in production, if in fact this 280x2 show car engine is the 3.8 push rod engine (anybody now from seeing it at a show?). It sure looks like it to me from the pictures. Could be GM changed its mind about giving the 3.8 the axe. We shall see, I guess.

As far as handling - the current GP GTP rates about .78-.79 g's, IIRC. The handling is nice in that there is minimal body roll, and the car takes a nice set when pushed and keeps it, but for my tastes there is too much understeer - the car feels too heavy - and the handling limit comes too quickly, limiting speeds through curves. .85 gs would be more respectable - more inline with other sport sedans. If some of the understeer isn't tamed, slalom speeds will still be significantly lower than other sport sedans. Given the cars weight and drivetrain layout, understeer will always be a factor. Interestingly enough, though, I've been able, as have others who have posted here, to induce snap oversteer when cornering hard. Not a good thing when you're not expecting it.

So, the balance of the car isn't quite right as it is now, IMO. Hope it will be better, and its limits higher, in the next gen GP. We shall see. No doubt many of the features on the GForce show car will be dropped for production (19 inch wheels, cross-drilled rotors, etc.), but hopefully not too many of the essentials.

1990bonnievile

there are rumers on autoweek that Luts will bring tome holden cars over rebadged as pontiac's. Holden has that nifty little 300hp commodore SS.

evandro

Often, increases of peak HP come at the expense of low-end torque by shifting the torque curve peak to higher RPM. However, by charging an engine its breathing capacity can be improved at higher RPM without loss, if not with gain, at lower RPM.

Having said that, it's impossible to know which way Pontiac chose to go for the G-Force without looking at this engine's torque curve.

GM has recently revised its plans considering the current market and decided to keep the Buick V6 for a few years more and actually axed some versions of the new OHC V6s.

yurakm

You can find the torque curve for the current GTP engine on GM cite:

http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/engines_cartruck/other/38l67_torque.htm

It max at 3200-3600 rpm, and drops fast after 4500 rpm. The power curve bends down accordingly at 4500, and drops after 5200-5500 rpm. Probably, GM will increase the max rev, by about 500 rpm, and push the maximum torque to 4000-4200. In this case the higher end power would increase with the same torque.

Cannot see how it can be related to supercharger bust increase. Do not expect substantial increase in the low-end power.

The current roadholding indes, probably, is 0.79. At least was for 2000 model:

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/pontiac/grandprix/4drgtpsprchgdsedan/specs.html?id=lin0066

most probably, it can be increased somewhat simply by using better tires.

dsm6

Interesting move. I like the 3.8 pushrod. Good low end torque - right where it is most useful. They've been able to keep it up to date with respect to emissions, so no problem there, and fuel efficiency is surprisingly good - but GM has been criticized for keeping such an old design. I personally have no problem with keeping it around, as the performance from it is on par (some say even better) than the OHC that would replace it.

evandro

The Buick V6 definitely deserves its position as one of the best engines of the 20th century. It's a very low friction engine, unlike its OHC siblings, thus its high efficiency.

I'm afraid we're getting to an age of exotic configurations, such as VW's W8 engine: it brings no more power and no improvement to energy efficiency, or even worsens it with either weight or cost of noble materials, but the manufacturer can surely brag about its exclusiveness in an ad... :^/

yurakm

I have read that the W-8 engine is very compact. The same reason, why V-6 and V-8 always were manufactured, with the inline designs winning in efficiency.

evandro

Yes, I've seen it at NAIAS and it's very compact indeed. Pretty much as small as a V6. However, it's heavier than a conventional V8, unless very expensive materials, as Aluminum and Magnesium in VW's case, are used. And the extra mass of metal between cylinders is not only bad for weight, but also for heat transfer problems. In the end, it's much less powerful than VW's own V8 and costs over 50% more to make. It's rumored in the industry that this engine will be axed soon, now that VW is getting a new boss (it's thought to be a pet project of the former boss)...

dsm6

Yes, the W-8 is very compact, allowing it to fit in relatively small engine bays. But its performance is, well, underwhelming.

OHC does have it's place, but ultimately I'm interested in the end result performance - acceleration, weight, fuel efficiency, emissions, power and torque curves, etc. - the total package. From the total package standpoint, I don't see justification in changing from the 3.8 L pushrod to the new 3.5 OHC.

evandro

I agree with you when it comes to my expectations: it's the net result that matters! It's going to be hard to replace such a venerable engine as the 3.8 V6.

Long live the Buick V6! :^)

graphicguy

Although I wasn't in Chicago for the show, I agree the pictures look as if they are using the 3.8L V6 for another "go-round".

This is fine by me. I've always thought that the current OHC configs amounted to more of the "technology du jour" type of thinking. In other words, it's technology for technology's sake, as opposed to an improvement. I like the engine in my 300M (3.5L DOHC), but I think the 3.8L superchaged engine in my sorely missed GTP was better. Much better torque over a better useable range. I've driven the Acura DOHC's in both regular and "S" iterations. While the Acura's are fine cars, their drivetrains still did not equal what the GTP (and Buick GS) offered. Horsepower is for show, torque is for go. Even with the Acura auto/manual trans, the GTPs fully auto tans shifted better and with more smoothness. It always seemed to "know" what gear I was looking for.

From what I heard from Chicago, the drivetrain shown in the G-Force is another reworking of the 3.8L (gen III?) with a totally new transmission. Non-blown motors would equal HP and torque of the current GTP motor. In the current 3.8, NVH is good, fuel economy is good, emmissions are good. Aside from the block size/configuration, I'm not sure anything is the same in the current day 3.8 as in the original 3.8 Buick engines. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Can't wait until more details are out about this car. I've never been excited about future models. This is the first one.

ruski

hey I was driving around in my TL-S and raced a GTP off a traffic light. I know the guy wanted to race and he put up a good fight. But I won. I actually felt bad about that.

graphicguy

Don't feel bad...I really like the "S" versions of the Acura. I liked them when I drove them. I just liked the GTP more. At the time, the GTPs cost about $5K-$6K less than the Acura. I don't know if Acura is discounting the CL/TL now. Maybe they're closer in price currently.

I don't think my 300M drivetrain is as good as the GTP's. My preferences probably stem from my early driving experiences via late '60s American muscle cars where torque is available at any given RPM. That's what our GTPs offered in spades. The '04 version seems to correct many of the complaints that some had with the current GTP...namely the interior (although, I didn't have any complaints with it). In addition, the G-Force looks like it has more of what everyone liked about the GTP...more power, better handling, more modern styling inside and out.

While I love my 300M, I'll be the first in line for the G-Force if it's anywhere close to what the show car is.

ruski

1990bonnievile

yeah the auto type S is like 6.2 sec compaired with about 6.6-6.8 for the GTP....pontiac could rectify this very very easily. All they would need to do is put the steeper gears of the non supercharged grand prix into the supercharged one...that would do it, the normal GT is low 7's the GTP would be low 6's with the same gears but they put different ones in.

dsm6

I test drove both, and liked the type s more, but it was going to cost about $7k more - too much for me - made the choice easy.

raider4life

1990bonnievile...I believe the times for the GT are in the upper 7s if i remember correctly, where did you get the lower 7s figure?

jmarino

I have been looking at a used GTP and I am wondering how the insurance rates are compared to Mustang GT and Camaros. I am married with 3 kids and a spotless driving record. I believe they wanted 1500 a year for the GT which was almost double the V6 Camaros rate. Hows it on the GTP ?
Thanks..

ruski

was pretty good. Can't remember exact numbers but it was not high.

ruski

I am leasing my TL-S

lease payments are very similar to what I used to pay for the GTP. And I actually got more miles per year on the TL-S lease.

However GTP was leased in NYC area a few years ago when GTP was a hot item.

TL-S was leased in Florida.

Still the very high residual price of the TL-S reduces the amount of lease payments.

dindak

I guess they had to keep the car for the Chicago show. Disappointing but what can you do?

graphicguy

Came from the Cincinnati Auto Show yesterday. There was no "G-Force", but they had the Grand Prix G8. We've seen/heard about that one already...All-wheel drive....same body style as the current generation of the GP. Interesting piece, but I doubt the G8 makes it into production. Asked the Pontiac rep about the '04 G-Force. He smiled and asked if I had been to Chicago. Told him "no", but the pictures/specs were all over the net. He smiled again and said that the G-Force would be a more accurate representation of the '04 GP than anything else they've shown. I tried to pin him down on what would/would not make it into production. He wasn't giving any definite answers. He said the 3.8L has plenty of life left and that they love working with that engine because it has so much more room for growth.

I asked him about supercharging the DOHC 3.5L. He said that that engine, although a good one, didn't have the same "characteristics" that the 3.8L had. He also said it cost more to produce but, that wouldn't have held them back in development because the cost differential wouldn't be an issue if they would have put them in all the mid-high end GM cars. While he said he couldn't speak for the other GM car lines, with Oldsmobile going away and Buick having no interest in the 3.5L engine, he doubted that it would be a long term solution for GM. He kept mentioning the "torquiness" of the 3.8 (something dear to me) that OHC designs couldn't match. He also said there was plenty of room for better emissions, reduced friction, more HP and improved gas mileage ratings for the 3.8L. Asked him about supercharging the next gen...he just said "yep...there are better superchargers coming, too". He went on to talk about how DOHC motors, the 3.5L specifically, weren't "robust" enough to handle increased stress and higher operating temperatures of turbo/super charging becasue of the lighter weight components that had to be used in them. He felt better emmissions would require engines to run hotter (to burn off what comes out of the exhaust).

Great guy to talk to. From our conversation, although he wouldn't confirm anything, I would suspect the G-Force will have another version of the 3.8L supercharged engine (with more HP, smoothness and less emmissions).

tpken

Did the Pontiac rep mention anything about future for Bonneville?

Ken

graphicguy

I didn't ask about the Bonneville specifically, but he said that powertrains would be shared in Pontiac's mid-size and premium marks. Take from that what you will.

dsm6

Saw a blurb about the GP G8 on car and driver tv this weekend. For those who aren't familiar with the car, it is a 350 hp LS1 V8 powered all-wheel drive grand prix show car from GM Special Vehicles division. It has been written up in various magazines, and shown at various car shows, trade shows, including SEMA.

Anyway, the CandD TV spot was about GM Special Vehicles in general. The exciting part - CandD said word is that the G8 might make it into production within a few years!

grprixguy

Just yesterday the "service engine soon" light came on, on my 2000 Grand Prix. I have 42,000 miles on it and just took it in for an oil change.
It could be just a coincidence, but the light came on shortly after the oil change.
The light just stays on steadily.

Does anyone know why the light came on?
It would be nice to know before I take it in to the dealer. My manual says it could be an "emission control system" malfunction.
But I read somewhere that it could be a malfunction with the electrical system instead, causing the light to stay on.
It would be appreciated if anyone has any thoughts about this problem. Thanks.

dsm6

Difficult to know exactly why without a code scanner. We can narrow it down, though, as I think you already have, from the fact that it is steady on, and not blinking. I will add this - I had the sel light come on when my gas cap wasn't on right. Emission controls are tight these days, and rely on a tight seal at the gas cap. If that is the case, and you re-tighten the cap (may need to clean it too to get a good seal), then the light will go out after a bit (it will stay on for a good while, though).

teo

As the all new 2003 Pontiac GTO coupe!

Great news!

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/cd154875757e0a86ca256b73007d8488

regfootball

RULES!

heng

Just changed the belt in a '98 GP 3.8 in less than 15 minutes. The belt was $27. The last one I did was for a Windstar and it was more than $40. don't know why the cost differential.

Anyone have experience with the Performance Friction brake pads? They are the same price for what ever is available locally on the shelf.