Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

ruski

when the 3800 Series II (and now Series III) is so great.

heng

I assume you checked the transmission fluid level?

dindak

I like the 3800 enough but a couple of driving the 3.5L Intrigue we have 2 years after our GP was totalled I can honestly say I prefer the ohc engine. I do a lot of highway driving and the passing power is simply amazing to me.

That said I could be sold on another 3800 if the GP has the looks comfort and interior I want. Looks pretty good so far.

vcjumper : Do you have something against foot emergency brakes?

saturnfan13185

GM has a flash update for your transmission control unit to remedy that. It's a bug in the torque converter lockup subroutine. Most likely that's what you've got, not an actual hardware failure. The 4T60-E and the 4T65-E used in the Grand Prix's is very reliable overall.

I'll keep you all posted on what I buy

Ed

ckey

was that torgue converter lockup in reference to my tranny prob or another one...if so then i should be able to take it to a pontiac dealership and they should know of the problem?

orwoody

One of the big reasons GM uses older "std" engine designs is that they are considerably less expensive to build and repair. They get similar performance and emissions from the design and it costs less to produce with fewer parts to break. When something does go wrong the cost to repair, rebuild or replace is less OHC engines and I am sure more to come. I've owned 4 rigs with the 3800 V-6 of varying revisions and all have been great performers and built proof.

Thanks to dindak for the link to the 2004 GP - looks like a winner, maybe even some of the Detroit pundits may have a nice comment on it.

saturnfan13185

Ckey--yeah that was in reference to your problem. Flash updates can definately fix many problems--after owning a Dodge with constant problems, software can fix a lot of tranny-related woes. I know the 4T40-E/4T45-E used in the Saturn L-series, Olds Alero, Pontiac Grand Am, Pontiac Sunfire, and Chevy Cavalier has had similar problems. Flash software updates are available for them as well.

Sounds to me like that's all you need, too.

Ed

regfootball

GM's competitors build cars at the same prices with OHC engines that perform better and last as long or longer.

How can you argue OHC is spendy then? Its not costing you the consumer any more. Then, if you buy GM with the pushrod you are getting LESS performance for your money and all that's happening is they are making more money off you because they supposedly spent less on the powertrain but charged you the same price.

Heck, even Dindak is saying he loves the OHC better.....

seriously...the Intrigue and Grand Prix are the same price....WHERE's the OHC advantage?????

yes its no longer 1978..its all a conspiracy of you wanna be mechanics that think OHC engines are so complex....you never had to rebuild one so you are afraid of them.......

vcjumper

From GM competitors, I think only the Nissan OHC (and probably the new Honda) are better than the 3800 series in the same price range (actually they are more expensive where I live).

The other 3.0L engines from Toyota, Honda, Ford, Chrysler(2.7L) seemed like they needed a manual tranny to get useful power out of them. Imagine them trying to power the extra weight the W-bodies carry.

From things I've read, the Northstar/Shortstar design is a mechanic's nightmare to work on. Problem with shortstar is if it breaks, it will take Cadillac replacement/maintenance prices to maintain the Oldsmobile product. When the cars are only going to be worth 7K, thats going to be tough to swallow.

oldcarz

regfootball, How are you getting less performance by buying GM with pushrod instead of GM with OHC or foreign with OHC? Altima V6 is 7.3 seconds, New Accord is 7.0 seconds, Intrigue about 7.8 seconds with their OHC V6 engines. The GTP with its "outdated" Pushrod V6 is 6.8 seconds. The GTP is CHEAPER then the Honda or Altima because of the $3k rebate from GM off of MSRP. There is no Rebate on Honda or Altima. You are getting more peformance for your dollar with the pushrod.

As for the Intrigue, its about $1k more then a GTP, no biggie. It is a 7.8 second car, the GTP 6.8 second. Not to mention the GTP has a better resale value then an Intrigue. The Olds resale value is pretty poor. Esp look at Aurora... their flagship. Resale is almost as bad as Hyundai. That is poor on a $35+k car. It is only going to be worth about $9k after 5yrs.

The 3800 SC L67 Pushrod was named to Wards top 10 engine list for the past 100 years as well. The OHC in the Intrigue was NOT!

Intrigues problems and reliability are the same or WORSE then the GTP. I believe worse.

As for highway performance the SC L67 Pushrod will run just as strong or stronger then any of the other ohc V6 cars out there. For in town and stoplights... the ohc can't even hold a torch.

They may advertise 240hp like the GTP, but they can't advertise 280ft-lbs torque either... They are all 250 ft-lbs or less.

Drive what you like. That GTP engine, can run with or even beat any of the before mentioned ohcs....

smily1

Well said. But this dosnt sound right:

"The 3800 SC L67 Pushrod was named to Wards top 10 engine list for the past 100 years as well. The OHC in the Intrigue was NOT!"

Maybe you meant the past 10 years?

Anyway, I havnt ran across an import or OHC car with the balls to take my car. Even most V8's cant hold a candle to the GTP. Add a smaller blower pulley and a cold air intake and you are looking at sub 6 sec. 0-60 time.

vcjumper

The vast majority of Intrigues and Grand Prix's sold are not the top end GTP's or GLS's. They are GT's or GX/GL's, which have basically no price difference.

Also, the shortstar was named to the Ward's ten Best Engines in 2000 after the 3800 was taken off.

regfootball

YES THANKS FOR PROVIDING THOSE TRUTHS.

only 1 in 20 grand prixs i bet are GTP so oldcars is making it sound like all grand prixs have 240hp.....not true. The majority of them have the NA 3800 which is like 200hp.

Intrigues, for the last two years or so, in real money have sold for less than Grand Prixs.....how does your logic fit here about the car costing more because of the 'spendier engine'?

The Shortstar booted the 3800 in its first year off the Wards charts so even the experts are saying the Shortstar is simply a flat out better motor. I've driven both and the Shortstar is a much better engine.

Add a blower with equal boost to the shortstar and it rips the SC 3800's neck off and does you know what down its throat.

Geez, in order to be equal, lets add .3 litres of displacement to the Nissan VQ engine....and supercharge it.....then we'll have equal 3.8l engines and we'll see who's butt gets kicked.

Stop waxing romantic over this old engine. As a commuter engine its fine, but its ORDINARY by todays standards. The are more engines that surpass it in durability, drivability and reliability then there are that don't.

YES your GTP is fast......but don't hold a torch for the whole 3800 line for an engine that's only in what....3 cars? Hell, the Monte or Impala, neither of them even have the 3800 SC.

Really funny thing is the Saturn L300 will spank a normally aspirated 3800 car and the thing's only got '182' horses......and its much more enjoyable to drive.

b4z

I thought we were comparing engines not cars.
Don't think it is really fair to compare resale values when the Intrigue is essentially an orphan.

A DOHC engine is more expensive to manufacture, can't really compare it to a pushrod engine unless both engines are offered in the same model and trim. It's not a good comparison to say a GTP is the same price as an Accord.

For example when I leased my '99 Intrigue the DOHC motor was a $500 option over the 3800.
When all '99s got the 3.5L later in the year the base price of the car was raised.

I have the 3800 in my '01 IMpala. The Shortstar has got it all over the 3800. It is quieter smoother and makes an incredible sound at high rpms. Its high speed passing ability is off the charts.
According to the their rated power the shortstar has 15 more hp than the 3800. On the highway it feels like at least 30 hp more.

The 3800 is a nice engine with good torque and gas mileage, but if GM were to offer a OHC engine in the Impala or GP I would sell my Impala tomorrow and take a big hit.

dindak

Saw in the new motor trend that the 04 will have an optional performance option of an all new ohc V8. Very exciting, nice to see some money going into this car. GM should see much better sales with the 04.

montanafan

All info I have read indicates that the 2004 engine line up will be the 3.8 & 3.8 Supecharged, no new engines. http://media.gm.com has the GP info and lots of info about future engine/transmissions.

dindak

Perhaps the engine quoted in the new MT is for the 05 models in 04 then? Check it out for yorself next time you are at the magazine racks.

regfootball

v8 in the GP?

hmmmm....still, the dash........arrrghhhhhhh

that would be very good news though if indeed GM was putting a OHC v8 in the GP.

vcjumper

Would rather see an OHC v8 in GM's RWD platforms like the CTS.

The 04 interior does look like really hard untextured plastic unfortunately. Even the steering wheel. Hopefully in real life it will be a pleasant surprise.

regfootball

ohc V8, WHY NOT IN BOTH?

saturnfan13185

I wouldn't knock the 3800 series II V6. It might be less "trendy" than the OHC engines, but it's bulletproof so far as reliability is concerned. Same goes for the 3.1 and the 3.1L V6's.

I like the 3800's torque characteristics--gobs of torque are available down low. The GTP is a damn fast car stock, quicker than most of these vehicles that people think are "all that."

As mentioned earlier, a few relatively inexpensive upgrades will give you a sub-6 second car.

Ed

orwoody

From what I have seen it looks like the V8 will be coming in the GTO Pontiac is picking up from their Australian affiliate next year. Nice looking Coupe. The 2004 GP is staying with a tweaked 3800 up to 250hp & 280lb-ft in the super charged version.(rumor it may hit 280hp) It's also a better looking car and the interior is updated. I haven't found anything on when GM plans to phase out the 3800 push rod. I saw somewhere that Pontiac was phasing out the GP coupe and would only be offering the sedan? Anyone else seen anything on this? Maybe they'll push customers to the GTO is they want a coupe and the GP if they want a sedan?
Anyone from Pontiac/GM reading this?

Regarding above numerous comments on push rod verses OHC...my earlier comments are based on some basic assumptions and limited info I have seen, The push rod design is simpler, has less parts and (should be) less $$$ to produce and assemble. Since none of the Auto mfrs share their costs directly it's hard to say how much more margin GM has to play with than say Ford or Honda or...on comparible models. But GM did have better financials than many of the other mfrs while giving hefty rebates on almost every rig they sold. I'm only a lowly engineer, so maybe some of my assumptions that less parts should add up to lower cost to build might not apply to the auto makers. I have a brother who has been a certified mechanic for GM for almost 15 years. They don't fool with rebuilding anything if they don't have to. If the engine is in for a major overhaul, generally they will replace it with a rebuilt unit. Per the invoices he's seen the pushrod variety is a fair amount less $ than the OHC for rebuilt or new. It only makes sense because there are more parts in an OHC and if one has to dig into the motor, it is much more time comsuming to pull the heads off and get to then pistons or cyclinders on a OHC. Since he's in a smaller city their dealership sells GMC, Buick, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Subaru and Honda. They work all kinds because the limited number of shops with capability in the area.

I believe the Japanese started the trend with dual OHC engines as they tried to get improved hp out of their 4 cylinders. They did, but torque was only marginally improved and torque is what is needed to get the rig rolling. They upped the performance but their mileage dropped. Case in point - we drove our 2000 GTP and my in-laws took their 2001 Accord. We drove all day pacing each other. We averaged 30-32 mpg and the best M & D got was 29.
The design then has been adopted to V6 and V8's but that puts a lot more hardware on top of the motor.

There are a lot of variables contributing to what makes any car go and the motor is only one of those components. How one likes to drive makes up a lot of what one finds satisfying. personally I love the GTP but wish that it could handle and ride a bit more like a BMW 325...then again I could spend a few $$$$$ makes some changes and get it closer. As for OHC motors the most recent one I tried was the Vibe/Matrix - not too impressed, had to rev the rpms way up to get much performance out of the motor.

smily1

With the mods I have on my car I have approximately 300hp and I get an average of 30mpg on the highway (36 best).

There are OHC motors that run higher HP numbers than the 3.8 but the power is in an obscure place in the power band. Thats why you can see a 240hp car beat a 280hp car even when it weighs more. A lot of this has to do with how much and when the torque comes in. Some OHC motors dont have their peak torque until after 4k rpm's!

It all comes down to what you like...Not saying that the 3.8 is the best in the world...just pretty darn close....(puts on flame suite)

lamronh49

My personal preference is the 3.8, because it has instant torque. I had an 01 Accord V6 and with most ohc you have to get to 3500+ rpm to get any soul, and up to 4500-5000 to get rippin. I had a 2.7 Concorde and that car had to downshift a lot because it has no displacement and its torque peak is highhigh. I don't like to spend all my time in those ranges, I like the instant torque the 3.8 provides. It's just a fact of life that ohc produce their power up high and produce less torque, and ohv produce down low torque. I'd love to see GM do a cleanup on the 3.8 like Honda did on their 3.0, improve its efficiency and get some free power out of it. As Gary Coleman said, Dif'rent Strokes..

saturnfan13185

I agree! I prefer most any pushrod engine to most any OHC engine. Pushrods in general produce more torque, and in general make it down nice and low. You don't have to rev the car way up to use your power. In my book, that means that the engine has to work less hard, and it will last longer. Right?

Not to mention it's less fearsome for passengers that happen to be with you ;-). Less revving also means better mileage, usually, too. The transmission shifts less, which is also a good thing.

Has anybody taken a look at the Pontiac Vibe/Toyo Matrix? Look at the upper trim levels. The ones with the "more powerful" engine. The base engine makes 130HP and 126 torque, if I remember right. The "uplevel" engine makes 180HP and a *whopping* 130 lb-ft of torque. Not only that, but you have to rev it *past* 5K to get to that torque or horsepower! What's the use in that?

I'll take GM's 3800 engine over most ANY OHC engine in my price range. The Olds 3.5 included.

Ed

dindak

After our 98 3.8 GP died in a wreck we decided to go for an Intrigue. After almost 3 years with the 3.5 I can honestly say I generally prefer the 3.5L due to the highway passing power (I drive on the highway a lot). I would most certainly buy another 3.8 powered car, but give the option in a chosen car, I would likely go ohc. If the new generation GP gets an ohc option and I like it, I would bite.

b4z

Out of a brand new 3.5L PUSHROD engine.
There will also be a 3.9L Pushrod version.

Plus the DOHC versions.

regfootball

"but give the option in a chosen car, I would likely go ohc. If the new generation GP gets an ohc option and I like it, I would bite."

that's why I've said, GM has missed the boat by not offering the 3.5 as an option in other car lines besides the Intrigue. I think if many 3800 fans went out and drove a regal, grand prix, etc. with the shortstar, side by side against the 3800, I'd wager my house that at least 2/3 of them would have chosen the shortstar....for GM to limit its application to only one car was a really bad marketing move. A supercharged shortstar would have been the real deal........

that said, I am for options and hey why not offer both, the OHC and the pushrod.

As far as the new pushrod motors GM is developing, the specs look very good......we'll have to see what happens.....

heng

Any info on that yet?

The Chrysler 2.7 - yeah I drove one and laughed when I floored it pulling away from a stop. It was gutless but at highway speeds it felt the same as the 3.8 (same HP, must make it near the same rpm).

OHC passing power on the highway - no doubt, but who needs it. Its the slicing an dicing at low and medium speeds (traffic) is where I need the response. Cruising on the highway and passing, the 3.8 is plenty responsive (unless you are racing someone then I can see the advantage of the 3.5, but thats not my style).

dindak

3.5L was discontinued in June along with the Intrigue and V6 Aurora.

The 3.5L "slices and dices" faster than the 3.8L. Off the line, it's only marginally slower.

regfootball

passing power, depends on your need.....I take quite a few interstate trips every year and when traffic regularly moves at 75-80 those are the speeds you are passing folks, and its not to show off, its to avoid being caught in slow moving packs, which can be unsafe. When the freeway is jam packed with 75-80 mph traffic, you have to stay alert, maintain your spacing and split second passing manuevers are necessary. Its at these speeds that the OHC smoothness and responsiveness really shine and make the OHV seem less desirable.

orwoody

I read and article that said the 3.5L was being discontinued due to difficulty getting it to meet newer emission stds.
I've only driven rigs with the 3.5L a couple of times and it was okay, but I didn't notice that it was better performing than the 3.8L.
My Aunt has an Intrigue with the 3.5L, runs nice but I know she's had a few problems with it, but I don't have the details.

b4z

Shortstar production actually ended in the fourth quarter of 2001 and engines were stockpiled
for 2002 production.

dindak

I didn't see that the 3.5L was more to my liking until about 3 weeks after I had the car. The passing power at all speeds is amazing and the smoothness while not much better than the 3.8L is definitely noticeable.

Hey don't get me wrong, love the 3.8. After a few years with the 3.5L however, I just like it a little more.

dsm6

I've driven both - the supercharged 3.8 in a GTP and the NA 3.5 in an Intrigue. I liked the 3.8 SC better in all situations - off the line, cruising, and passing power.

This may seem like an unfair comparison, because one is supercharged and the other is not, but then again one was offered with a supercharger, the other was not - c'est la vie. So, when it came time to buy, comparing NA version to NA version, or SC version to SC version, and deciding with which to go, was moot - it came down to SC 3.8 vs. NA 3.5.

heng

I see the situation and acknowledge the OHC advantage. Fortunately we don't have that kind of traffic in this region.

Too bad GM decided to discontinue the 3.5. It would have been good to have the choice in my next car.

regfootball

like I suggest, I would like to see the shortstar supercharged...or.....the new CTS 3.6 litre motor...lets drop a blower on that thing.

orwoody

Here is an interesting article on future upcoming new engines from GM. It brings into some marketing considerations and strategies.

check it out.

http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0210/10/b02-608586.htm

saturnfan13185

I think the 3800 Series II supercharged V6 is my favorite engine that GM makes. The pushrod design ensures it has gobs of torque down low, whereas the supercharger helps give it plenty of power all through the rev range, including at the high end (for high-speed passing).

It's smooth enough and quiet enough for me, as well.

That above link is an interesting article. It mentions that GM has plans to build a V-12 500HP engine for Cadillac. I think GM's pride is back.

Ed

montanafan

Also good info at http://media.gm.com on future powertrains, etc.

ruski

I never had complaints about my GTP's passing power at 70, 80, or 90 mph

regfootball

but most folks don't buy the blown version.

tomcat630

"...3.5L was being discontinued due to difficulty getting it to meet newer emission stds."

What a waste, didn't GM know about these upcoming standards before making the 3.5?

b4z

Also an expensive engine to build.
Shortstar was an improved version of the Northstar then a year later the Northstar go the Shortstar's improved design.
They could have made improvements to the engine but they didn't want to spend any money on it.
just like GM didn't want to spend money to make the Impala SS meet crash standards for 1997.

saturnfan13185

I know my old Intrepid with the Chrysler 3.3L pushrod V6 certainly had no power left at anything above 60 MPH. You had to plan a pass miles ahead of time. The 3800 s/c V6 has no such troubles. And seemingly the normally-aspirated 3800 doesn't have passing problems either.

Now the Grand Prix SE with the 3100--now THAT car is slow.

Ed

heng

Yeah, I thought the Malibu was slow with the 3100 in it. Couldn't imagine driving a GP with the 3100.

ptmoore1

I'm giving my 98 GP to my 16 yr old son who is getting his license. He bought some new rear 6" by 9" speakers, but ran into trouble getting the existing speaker grilles off. Any suggestions on how or what needs to be done?

david64

FWIW there were MANY noise complaints when olds went to the 3.5 vs the 3.8.
The pre 97 GP used a ohc engine- not as reliable as the 3.8 (one of Wards 10 best year after year)
IMHO OHC & DOHC are marketing fluff- my riding lawn mower has an ohc engine!!!

ptmoore1- to remove the rear spks you must remove the rear seat- its pretty easy 2 bolts IIRC

David
97 GTP 231 wheel hp, 348 ft-lbs of torque and 134,000 trouble free miles.

fantascp

Hi Bob, you stated in your post that the L300 Saturn 6 cyl-182 HP- (Ijust test drove both the 2003 Saturn - L-200 and L300- this past weekend) can SPANK a normally aspired 3800- do you have actual 0 to 60 figures or 1/4 mile numbers to back that up??
Reason being that i also test drove a 2003 Grand Prix GT- (200 HP)I am purchasing the Grand Prix GT- not the Saturn, and I also presently own a 98 Bonneville SSE and 2000 SE-(both with the 205 HP engine-- the L200 and L300 whinned when I hit the gas to excellerate- and there wasn't great excelleration. Is this typical of a OHC engine??- To me (again in my opinion )my Pontiac's are faster and more fun to drive that either Saturn model- (I'm not knocking Saturn, its a fine vehicle- I just think the Pontiac is faster. Please show me factual proof that a L-300 is Faster, if its true,
I'll become a believer- no problem

Thanks

Chuck

vcjumper

I think the Edmunds family car comparison from 2000 has the L300 timed at 7.3seconds 0-60.