I always ready CR and then I read a bunch of other publications also. CR is no Bible and every publication has it's faults. A cross section of views and data will always yield a more accurate picture of a car.
I agree with the views posted on CR. I (unfortunately for me) tend to buy new cars within a year or two of intro and it DOES take CR a while to catch up with reliability. However, my point is that long-term track records are a good guide. I (don't flame me for this, please) think that most of CR subscribers are older and more affluent, which would explain the lack of data on certain '01 models in the '02 April issue. No it's not my bible (why else would I be soliciting your comments?), but I don't hate them either. And I don't do the raffle bit, but they still value my input (a whole lot).
Just received the first brochure on the new Malibu, which admittedly haven't had a chance to go through it in detail yet, but it's diasappointing. Will post comments on that in a few minutes in that discussion forum. I probably should log on to Pontiac.com and get the brochure on the new GP as well.
I have 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GT that has 63K miles. Recently, when accelerating from a stop I started to hear a whining sound and I would feel the transmission pull back for each gear in the sequence to overdrive. This problem seems to happen after driving the car a long time. I took it to a mechanic shop and they could not duplicate the symptoms and the compute analysis showed no problems. They told me based on my experience that the transmission needs to be replaced. So I am going to take it to a Pontiac dealer and let them take a look at it. I have not changed the transmission fluid yet, so that might be the problem. Does anyone have a suggestion?
I just brought up this page today, because my Bro-in-law's 1999 GP had the same symptoms show up very recently - matter of fact, as my sister was taking it in to the shop for an oil change. I can't remember what the exact problem was, but it was something to do with valves in the tranny. I believe it was $400 or so to fix.
It was shifting really hard between each gear. It has 45,000 miles on it. I don't know if the tranny fluid was ever changed, but I've begun to have the tranny fluid flushed every 30,000 miles on all of my cars.
The car has had a couple of interior water leaks and the interior door panels (2 of them) are practically falling off.
Had a question... did they ever make a Grand Prix GT in 1997 with the supercharger?? I thought only the GTP had this, but someone is claiming they got a 1997 GT in October 1996 with the supercharger... because the GTP wasn't available until late in the 1997 model year? Any answers? Let me know... I don't belive it myself.
>>>Even the torque, usually this engine's strong point, seemed a bit overwhelmed by the Grand Prix's weight.
The supercharged version is predictably stronger and shouldn't be affected by the thinner atmosphere, but even it runs out of puff at much over 4500 rpm." <<<
Regfootball, I disagree, it is 240hp @ 5200rpm... all the way to 5 it is pretty powefull. Doesn't matter...the GTP does 0-60 mph in 6.8 seconds from the factory before mods. Which is still fast when you consider that an automatic V6 Altima takes 7.3 seconds and the new Honda Accord V6 automatic takes 7.0 seconds. and they all have the same 240 horse rating. The accord benefits from a 5spd auto and still can't beat the GTP which only has a 4spd auto.
I will agree that the engine is noisy...but like you said some of that is Pontiac's custom exhaust note. I like the idle from outside, not bad for a factory exhaust. sounds better at idle then a V6 altima or V6 accord.. that is for sure !!
but you are talking about an engine with a blower versus those that arent. Slap a blower on the maxima and accord and let's see who's butt dust you are eating.
I'm talking about a stock factory GTP, vs a Stock Factory, Accord V6, Maxima or Altima V6..with auto tranny. The blower on the GTP is stock from the factory and included in the purchase price of the vehicle...
You are right, if you put a blower on the Accord V6 or Max it would beat the GTP.. no doubt. But then we aren't comparing the same thing... because now the Max and Accord would be MODDED. The GTP tranny and engine were designed for the stress of a blower, the Max and Accord were not.
Furthermore, how much would it cost to put a blower on a Maxima or Accord? Probably $3k+...Their auto transmission's wouldn't be able to take it for too long without mods and by adding a blower you just voided the warranty on your max or accord.
drop it. GM has to put a blower on the engine just to get it to produce. Otherwise, it lacks. The others don't. It is handicapped by its basic design. What don't you get? So you can get a supercharged version factory. Sure....which 5% of Grand Prixs are those.......
By the time the blower and associated band aid engineering items have been added to the simple motor is has become bigger, heavier and more expensive than the non-blown. What is the advantage then?
Why not put a shortstar in the car AND put a blower on it then, if you want TRUE performance? The Grand Prix would be that much better if they had done that.
The Supercharged 3.8L V6 was included in and only available with the GTP option package on the 1997 & 1998 Grand Prix GTs. It became its own "model" in 1999.(GTP accounts for 40% of 2003 Grand Prix sales.)
I hear ya. But a loaded GTP is still cheaper then a loaded V6 Altima or Accord. Esp with GM's $3k rebate.
I bought a 2002 GTP coupe loaded to replace my 1997 in September. I was honestly considering a V6 Altima loaded... MSRP on the GTP was $28k.. MSRP on the Altima was $28 or $29k. The GTP coupe's don't exist anymore and was a leftover in Sept with the 03's just coming in. I got $3k off the MSRP and the $3k rebate...
Bottom line, I paid $22k for the GTP which MSRP at $28k
The lowest The 5 dif nissan dealers would go was $27k. I got the GTP for $5k less then the Altima..
As for the shortstar with a blower? It is already an unreliable engine, compared to the bulletproff 3800... that would cost GM alot to supercharge, it's not going to happen,
They introduced the 3800 series III with 260 horse for 2004.
Vcjumper.. I fully agree... It is about $3k to $4k to slap a blower on a Accord Or Maxima. Obviously their auto tranny's are NOT designed to handle that. You will most likely void your warranty. The funny thing is that Gm's car with a factory S/C is still cheaper then the Non S/C Honda or Nissan. At least somebody sees that.
The Nissan 3.5L VQ and the 3.0L VQ last made in 2001 have a nice exhaust note under hard throttle. Both on wards top 10 engine list, just like GM's 3800 S/C. I love the note on my 2001 I30t. Only thing I don't like is that there is NO low end power...compared to my GTP. Once you hit 3000rpm watch out. Very nice. I still like the drivetrain better in my GTP though...
I fail to understand why some argue over hypothetical questions such as "one is blown, the other isn't." The bottom line is that a hypothesis is not factual, just imaginary. Whatever Honda or Nissan would get out of their engines with a blower is moot. Just as it's moot to argue that a blower is needed on the 3.8 to surpass those other V6s.
And don't even mention specific HP, because nobody buys that, only net HP, doesn't matter how it's achieved. As long as it fits one's budget, I think that no one could care less how they come into being.
The fact of the matter is that 5% of GP (the blown ones) leave 5% of both Honda and Nissan (the V6 ones) in their dust. Period. Interestingly enough, the remaining 95% of GP (the NA V6 ones) also leave the remaining 95% of both Honda and Nissan (the I4 ones) in their dust. ;-) I loved Pontiac's slogan for the GP: "because a car should have more cylinders than seating capacity."
One can say anything about the Buick V6 and about Honda's and Nissan's V6s, but he cannot ignore that the GM powerplant delivers. And for much less money, both out of the door and at the pump (should I mention insurance premiums too?).
As for the Accord's 5-speed automatic, the extra gear is probably to blame for those 0.2s less than the 4-speed GP... Whenever there's a gear to change, it's an instant when the wheels get no power.
I had a '99 GTP that some kid in an Acura "t-boned" me and totalled the car. It was my second GTP.
I can honestly say that the choice of the GTP vs. Camcord/Nissan is fruitless. The 3.8L blown engine combined with the seamelss GM auto, bests the performance of any of the other cars drivetrains.
Yes, useable power drops at anything above 5k RPM with the GTP, but by the time you hit that RPM, you are travelling at a very high rate of speed if you hit it in every gear (and all the other cars are still catching up.
For $22K (after rebates and negotiation) the GTP is a screaming bargain. It's reliable as anything else out there.
I posted a longer version on the "Pontiac Grand Prix 2004 Redesign...Comments" forum. We tried the Acura RSX and the Mazda6s. Dropped by Pontiac dealer for fun and ended up buying a 2003 GT w/ 1SB, Wide Track Package, 4 way lumbar Driver seat for less than 19 grand when all was said and done. Although I'm betting the 2004 GP is a better car, I'm also betting deals like the one we got won't be around on the 2004 for a while(if ever). I still intend to take a 2004 GP for a test spin The Mazda6s is a nice car but...
the fact is that GM was producing this car with 240HP and 280 lbs*torque back in 1996 (actually Riviera had this engine even earlier in 1995)
Where were Nissan and Honda back then? 160-195HP?
So finally Nissan and Honda finally catch up with HP numbers, and still they can't outrun the GTP, even with the help of their "superior" engine technology and 5-speed auto tranny.
And to make matters worse Honda's auto tranny can't even handle the power (my TL-S tranny broke at 6,100 miles)
P.S. Yeah, if you slap a blower on the Altima, it will be faster. It will probably be able to do 0-60 in 6.6 seconds with auto tranny. That's what GTP did back in 1996.
It is ridiculous to talk about how an engine develops power because the average buyer doesnt give a damn. As long as the 3800 can meet emission and deliver good mileage it is still viable. The altima and Accord may have less displacement but it nets you nothing in terms of real world performance. All it gives you are bragging rights in terms of specific output and higher redlines. The other thing that must be considered is that the GP has less torque steer than either of those cars in spite of the fact is has far more torque. The altima and maxima have too much torque steer because Nissan has never managed that much FWD power before. Unless you are racing your car you will never need to use power aboive 5000rpm. Even though smaller V6s rev higher, the owners rarely get a chance to get anywhere near there redlines. In the meantime those cars are making no torque at lower rpms that are encountered everyday.
Hey guys could I get a hand here. I have a 1995 Grand Prix it has 86000 miles on it and burns oil at high speeds. I've checked it out and I can't figure out why. Anybody ever heard anything about it? It's a 3.1L. She perfroms great other than this detail.
So my dad came home with a 2004 Grand Prix. Unfortunately it was a base model with NO options except a CD/Cassette player and an engine block heater. But after driving it you would never think it's a base model. Compared to the last generation GP (which I used to lease) this car handles a LOT better. It feels very tight and controlled. Throttle response and break pedal feel are great and the car truly feels smaller than it really is. Acceleration feels like its improved; I estimated a 0-60 time of around 7.5 seconds using brake-torque method and a stopwatch. The entire car feels tighter and connected when compared to the old car. In fact I would go as far as saying it's the best front wheel GM car I have driven to date. While im not a big fan of the exterior styling (kind of tacky in some areas) I love the new interior. The materials used are of much higher quality and the panel gaps are quite small, especially when compared to the previous GP. The seats are pretty deeply bolstered and remind me of those found in the CTS. The quality of sound from the standard 6 speaker setup makes me question if its really worth anteing up $600 for the better monsoon system. Overall: an awesome improvement over last generation's car and an above average mid-sized car. here is a link to the pics:
I don't have any blue smoke coming out of the exhaust. It seems to run clean that way. Usually burn about a quart after a 8 hour trip about 75-80 Mile Per Hour. Or couple of tanks to burn a quart. I usually add two-three quarts a month depending on my travels. Higher speeds are about 65 mph
plase use this link rather than the other one i gave. this one has more pics. someone wanted pics of the seats so i will try to take a few pics of them soon. take it easy.
I know production is well under way, but I didn't realize the cars had hit the dealers yet. I will have to check and see if the local Pontiac dealer has any.
cars are NOT in dealers yet. im guessing another 2-3 weeks before that happens. my fathers car is a test vehicle that upper level GM employees get. THe purpose is to evaluate the car before it gets to the dealer lots to see if there are any last problems. They always do this when cars are redesigned or facelifted.
i posted up more pics. someone wanted pics of the cloth seats i believe. cant really think of any more pics to take but let me know if anyone wants to see anything.
Thanks for posting all those pictures -- they really run the gamut.
Those multi-colored cloth inserts on the seats looks kind of tacky. If I order one, I'll probably get the leather even though it's not as comfortable to me in the extreme weather.
The local dealers keep saying "they'll be arriving next week" for a few weeks now. I'm getting antsy for a new car, I'm also considering the Accord. The Accord is a nice car, especially it's interior, but I hate to not take advantage of my GM Card rebate points and GMS pricing I can get.
Since your dad works for GM, do you know if dealers will be doing the GMO or GMS pricing right away?
Saw the 04 GP review in the new Car and Driver. They were quite positive on the car and it's handling! Check it out when you are at the corner store next time.
i dont remember which board it was in, but someone wanted to see pics of the GP guages at night. i tried takin some right now... but its kinda hard without using the flash becuase the shutter stays open longer making the shot very sensitive to movement. hope that made sense. thats why they are blury.
Stopped off at the local dealer the other night just to see if they might have any of the new GPs in. They didn't, in fact they didn't have much in the way of Pontiacs in stock unless you want a Sunfire or Grand Am. They had 2 current GPs and 3 Bonnevilles. One of the Bonnevilles was a fully loaded 2002 SSEi. That one got my interest a bit because I've always liked the SSEi(and this one was black with chrome wheels) and I began wondering what kind of discounts this car would have. Being as the 03s have been on sale for nearly half a year now, I'm sure they are bound to be wanting to move this thing off their lot.
Thanks for the link! I think the "American BMW" idea is far fetched, but it sounds like the new GP has some decent handling and the interior is definitely much better. I'd really like to take one of these for a spin when they come out.
Unfortunately when I take a look at Snaab's pictures of the back seat, I see how sloped the rear window is towards the seats and it reminds me that I have to look elsewhere for my needs.
i dont think that head room is too much of an issue back there. however maybe this is because the seat is too low. headroom: good. comfort: not too great.
Sadly, whenever I read a C&D review of any new model I take it with several shakers worth of salt. They almost always rave about a new model only to trash it 6 months or a year later. The only exception I can think of lately is the Ion. I think I'll wait for a while before passing judgement.
Still it's encouraging to see a good review out of the gate here. Back seat in the new GP is bad though, fine for kids but not good for adults IMO. Anyone else seen a different review of the 04 GP?
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thats the only pattern you can get on the cloth seats. the leather is supposed to be of better quality this year. and i think its only about $600 more and comes with heated seats. not a bad deal in my mind.
If you do not want leather, if they pay YOU $600 to take it, it is not a good deal. That cloth alone is enough reason for me to go back to ONLY considering a Mazda6. First GM lost me by putting the old generation of supercharged 3800s in the new Impala SS, and now this. I do not need a car that my business associates would never take seriously.
Plus, I agree, there is no way I am putting a real estate agent and a lawyer in that back seat for a 100 mile trip. No way.
Guess I better call up the Mazda dealer and make an appointment.
Comments
Just received the first brochure on the new Malibu, which admittedly haven't had a chance to go through it in detail yet, but it's diasappointing. Will post comments on that in a few minutes in that discussion forum. I probably should log on to Pontiac.com and get the brochure on the new GP as well.
Keep it coming "guys".
It was shifting really hard between each gear. It has 45,000 miles on it. I don't know if the tranny fluid was ever changed, but I've begun to have the tranny fluid flushed every 30,000 miles on all of my cars.
The car has had a couple of interior water leaks and the interior door panels (2 of them) are practically falling off.
It is a sharp car and runs well.
The supercharged version is predictably stronger and shouldn't be affected by the thinner atmosphere, but even it runs out of puff at much over 4500 rpm." <<<
Regfootball, I disagree, it is 240hp @ 5200rpm... all the way to 5 it is pretty powefull. Doesn't matter...the GTP does 0-60 mph in 6.8 seconds from the factory before mods. Which is still fast when you consider that an automatic V6 Altima takes 7.3 seconds and the new Honda Accord V6 automatic takes 7.0 seconds. and they all have the same 240 horse rating. The accord benefits from a 5spd auto and still can't beat the GTP which only has a 4spd auto.
I will agree that the engine is noisy...but like you said some of that is Pontiac's custom exhaust note. I like the idle from outside, not bad for a factory exhaust. sounds better at idle then a V6 altima or V6 accord.. that is for sure !!
I like the 3.5L VQ motor's exhaust note.. The 3.0L Accord motor sounds typical sewing machine though.
I'm talking about a stock factory GTP, vs a Stock Factory, Accord V6, Maxima or Altima V6..with auto tranny. The blower on the GTP is stock from the factory and included in the purchase price of the vehicle...
You are right, if you put a blower on the Accord V6 or Max it would beat the GTP.. no doubt. But then we aren't comparing the same thing... because now the Max and Accord would be MODDED. The GTP tranny and engine were designed for the stress of a blower, the Max and Accord were not.
Furthermore, how much would it cost to put a blower on a Maxima or Accord? Probably $3k+...Their auto transmission's wouldn't be able to take it for too long without mods and by adding a blower you just voided the warranty on your max or accord.
By the time the blower and associated band aid engineering items have been added to the simple motor is has become bigger, heavier and more expensive than the non-blown. What is the advantage then?
Why not put a shortstar in the car AND put a blower on it then, if you want TRUE performance? The Grand Prix would be that much better if they had done that.
I bought a 2002 GTP coupe loaded to replace my 1997 in September. I was honestly considering a V6 Altima loaded... MSRP on the GTP was $28k.. MSRP on the Altima was $28 or $29k. The GTP coupe's don't exist anymore and was a leftover in Sept with the 03's just coming in. I got $3k off the MSRP and the $3k rebate...
Bottom line, I paid $22k for the GTP which MSRP at $28k
The lowest The 5 dif nissan dealers would go was $27k. I got the GTP for $5k less then the Altima..
As for the shortstar with a blower? It is already an unreliable engine, compared to the bulletproff 3800... that would cost GM alot to supercharge, it's not going to happen,
They introduced the 3800 series III with 260 horse for 2004.
Where did you get the % info? What % of the Grand Prix's were coupes? And % were supercharged coupes? Just curious.. 2002 was the last yr
The Nissan 3.5L VQ and the 3.0L VQ last made in 2001 have a nice exhaust note under hard throttle. Both on wards top 10 engine list, just like GM's 3800 S/C. I love the note on my 2001 I30t. Only thing I don't like is that there is NO low end power...compared to my GTP. Once you hit 3000rpm watch out. Very nice. I still like the drivetrain better in my GTP though...
And don't even mention specific HP, because nobody buys that, only net HP, doesn't matter how it's achieved. As long as it fits one's budget, I think that no one could care less how they come into being.
The fact of the matter is that 5% of GP (the blown ones) leave 5% of both Honda and Nissan (the V6 ones) in their dust. Period. Interestingly enough, the remaining 95% of GP (the NA V6 ones) also leave the remaining 95% of both Honda and Nissan (the I4 ones) in their dust.
;-)I loved Pontiac's slogan for the GP: "because a car should have more cylinders than seating capacity."One can say anything about the Buick V6 and about Honda's and Nissan's V6s, but he cannot ignore that the GM powerplant delivers. And for much less money, both out of the door and at the pump (should I mention insurance premiums too?).
As for the Accord's 5-speed automatic, the extra gear is probably to blame for those 0.2s less than the 4-speed GP... Whenever there's a gear to change, it's an instant when the wheels get no power.
I can honestly say that the choice of the GTP vs. Camcord/Nissan is fruitless. The 3.8L blown engine combined with the seamelss GM auto, bests the performance of any of the other cars drivetrains.
Yes, useable power drops at anything above 5k RPM with the GTP, but by the time you hit that RPM, you are travelling at a very high rate of speed if you hit it in every gear (and all the other cars are still catching up.
For $22K (after rebates and negotiation) the GTP is a screaming bargain. It's reliable as anything else out there.
I wish I still had the car.
I may fix that soon.
The 04's are coming! The 04's are coming!
(Just a little matter of deciding between it and a Mazda6...and yes, I DO know I am weird!
Where were Nissan and Honda back then? 160-195HP?
So finally Nissan and Honda finally catch up with HP numbers, and still they can't outrun the GTP, even with the help of their "superior" engine technology and 5-speed auto tranny.
And to make matters worse Honda's auto tranny can't even handle the power (my TL-S tranny broke at 6,100 miles)
P.S. Yeah, if you slap a blower on the Altima, it will be faster. It will probably be able to do 0-60 in 6.6 seconds with auto tranny. That's what GTP did back in 1996.
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/amaximeya/lst?.dir=/we+got+a+2004+Gran- - d+Prix+for+3+months&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done- - =http%3a//photos.yahoo.com
if ya got any qestions or want more detailed pics let me know. I gotta try and sell this car so GM gives my dad a bigger bonus this year
http://photos.yahoo.com/amulay2003
Great pictures by the way!
http://photos.yahoo.com/amulay2003
Those multi-colored cloth inserts on the seats looks kind of tacky. If I order one, I'll probably get the leather even though it's not as comfortable to me in the extreme weather.
The local dealers keep saying "they'll be arriving next week" for a few weeks now. I'm getting antsy for a new car, I'm also considering the Accord. The Accord is a nice car, especially it's interior, but I hate to not take advantage of my GM Card rebate points and GMS pricing I can get.
Since your dad works for GM, do you know if dealers will be doing the GMO or GMS pricing right away?
Thanks.
http://photos.yahoo.com/amulay2003
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Plus, I agree, there is no way I am putting a real estate agent and a lawyer in that back seat for a 100 mile trip. No way.
Guess I better call up the Mazda dealer and make an appointment.